New Game, character build feedback

[savageplay]

OK we are starting a new campaign and i want to get some assistance from other experienced players we are in the character creation phase as well as character progression/leveling. Below are some of the ideas so far but things could change.

So most of the group is fairly new players who managed to get into our previously existing high level campaign for the last year or so. So i want everyones characters to be fairly simple and not uber complicated considering. We are restarting at 2nd level + 1 Mythic level. Players will have Hero Points and we will be using an optional HP rule (so at 0 to neg Con score players are staggered and from there too -2x Con score is dying) so death should be very rare but with the new stagger house rule, i think very dramatic and fun. So i am not at all worried about players being 'too tough' as long as everyone is fairly equally balanced, fun and simple. They will be starting with 1000gp. For the books we will be using, we are mostly just using Advanced Player's guide, the core book and the Mythic book as well as some books i have (Ultimate Intrigue, Ultimate Campaign, Horror) with spells from anything save core have to be researched as new spells mostly. And the Gunslinger is an exception but we are keeping fairly simple on that for base rules too.

They have either of these starting stats (or can roll themselves)
18 18 16 15 14 0
17 17 17 16 15 14

So it seems that most of the players are wanting to take a level penalty and all be Drow Nobles (which fits with the story which is a continuation of our previous story, i will describe later) I know they are overpowered especially at low levels but if everyone is doing it it's no problem to me. Definitely going to make them feel tough even if they are lower levels

We play a very heavy roleplaying type of game where all of the players realize a decent Charisma is an important stat so no one will treat that as there dump stat. The players will be getting a boat early in their game stats (about 4th level) and it will be a combination of exploration, piracy and diplomatic campaign. Another thing to note is that all my players don’t alway come for every game so players have to have characters that are fairly flexible in group roles.

The group will be starting as neutrals and either lean towards good or evil and we will roleplay the act of when they choose what side. The main Villain will be Shar and her minions (playing the forgotten realms setting) where Shar is trying to bring about the shadowweave where only those loyal to her can use magic. In this setting there is an uneasy alliance with Sune, Ellistrea, and Lolth.

So the group right now looks like it will be this, yes it doesn’t look like there will be a strong melee/front line fighter for the group, but it looks like a few other classes will be pulling support on this role as well as planning to use undead minions as front line fighters.

Witch
Cleric
Gunslinger
Sorcerer
Bard
Alchemist?


Drow Noble Witch (Patron?) 1st level + Archmagi
Debuffer & offensive spells
Str 10 Dex 22 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 20 Cha 17
Planes +9, Arcana +9, Religion +9, Nature +9, History +9, Spellcraft +9, Intimidation +7, linguistics +9
Traits” Warrior of old, +1 trait
Hex: Evil Eye, Feat: Extra Hex (Cackle), Mythic Spell, Coupled Arcana, wild magic
Mythic Spells: Ill Omen*
Crow Familiar (Weapon Finesse & Fly By Attack)
Treasure: 10 extra spells in spellbook (18) wand of Charm Monster (1 charge), nice clothes

actions
Free: Coupled Arcana - Spell, Crow attack (held spell)
Swift: Wild Arcana, Surge
Standard: Hex
Move: Cackle

Drow Noble Cleric 1st level + Hierophant
Necromancer + Plotter
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 20 Cha 20
Stealth +6, Sense Motive +9, Bluff +9, Religion +8, Spellcraft +9, Diplomacy +9, perception +10
Domains: Trickery and Undead
Traits: Eyes and Ears, Warrior of old
Selective Channel, Mythic Selective Channel (Negative Energy)
Wild Magic, Alter Channel
Treasure: Scroll Animate Dead (4 Bloody Skelton - Hobgoblins with armor, sword and Shield and bow), Breastplate, Shield, Scrolls(4), Poison(2), Hand crossbow, masterwork bolts 2, Rapier

Future: Command Undead, Swift Channel

actions
Free: Commands to Undead Minions
Swift: Wild Magic, Surge
Standard: Spells, Attack Selective Channel
Move: Copycat (50% Miss chance)

Drow Noble Gunslinger 1st level + Champion (pistols)
Sexy/Social DPS
Str 10 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 16 Cha 20
Craft(Alchemy) +8, Engineering +8, Acrobatics +10, Bluff +9, Sleight of Hand +10 (+4 SP)
Traits: Warrior of old, Killer
Quick Draw, Legendary Item (Craft Item & Bullets)
Distant Barrage + Snipers Riposte
Treasure: Magic Pistol(free), 5 Bane Bullets, 5 Flame Bullets, Masterwork bullets 50, Leather Armor, Alchemist Items, alchemical cartridges

Future: Point Blank shot, Rapid Shot, Mythic Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon - Int (shapechange)

actions
Free: Reload (Pistols - Alchemical Cartridge)
Swift: Reload (Pistols) Distance Barrage, Surge
Standard: Attack
Move: Quick Clear (miss fire)

Drow Noble Sorcerer 1st level (Draconic) + Archmagi
Diplomatic/Social Blaster & Enchantment spells mostly
Str 10 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 16 Cha 20
Bluff +9, Arcana +8, Spellcraft +8, UMD +9, fly +10, intimate +9, perception +9
Traits: Warrior of old,
Weapon finesse, mythic weapon finesse
Wild Magic + Coupled Arcana
Spells: Mage armor, sleep / color spray, Chill Touch/Shocking Grasp ...
Bluff +9, Intimidate +9, Arcana +8, Spellcraft +8, UMD +9, Perception +9, Fly +10
Treasure: wand fireball (2), Hand Crossbow Poisons (x2), Masterwork Bolts (x2), wands & scrolls of 1st level spells (Shield, Protection from Evil/Good….)

actions
Free: Coupled Arcana - Spell, draw claws
Swift: Wild Arcana, Surge
Standard: Attack (Rapier), Spell, or Full Attack with Claws
Move:

Drow Alchemist + trickster
Str 10 Dex 22 Con 13 Cha 18 Int 20 Wis 16
Craft Alchemy +10, Disable Device +10, nature +9, Arcana +9, Perception +9, Sleight of Hand +10, Spellcraft +9, Survival +7, UMD +8 (+1 sp)
Traits: Warrior of old, +1 trait
Weapon Finesse, Mythic Weapon Finesse
Ability + limitless range (100)
Bomb 1d6+5 (6), Mutegeon +4 (self & +2 Natural AC & Dex), Brew Potion, Throw Anything, Extract (3/day - Self)
Extracts Known: Cure Light wounds, Shield, True Strike, Enlarge Person
Treasure: Drow Spider Silk (masterwork), Masterwork Light Shield, Potions, extra spells, Masterwork Rapier
AC 20 (24-28), +7 hit (1d6+6)

actions
Free:
Swift: Extra Shot, Surge
Standard: Attack, bomb, extract, mutegeon
Move:


Drow Noble Bard + Marshal
Player wants to be Intelligent based
Str 16 Dex 18 Con 13 Int 20 Wis 12 Cha 20
Arcana +10, Dungeoneering +10, Local +10, Nature +10, Planes +10, Religion +10, Perform +10, Perform +10, Stealth +8, Spellcraft +9 (+2 SP)
Traits: Warrior of old,
Arcane Strike, Mythic Arcane Strike*
Advance, Display of Intelligence
Treasure: Mighty Masterwork Shortbow, masterwork Arrows 20, Drow Poison x5, Scrolls (4), Rapier, Scorpion Whip, Chain Shirt,

Future: Point Blank, Rapid Shot, Mythic Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, mythic spells, Lightning Performance

actions
Free: Display of Intelligence
Swift: Arcane Strike*, Surge, advance*
Standard: Bardsong, Spell, Attack
Move:

[upho]

I don't really understand what kind of advice you're looking for here, so I'll just give you some of my initial general impressions.


For the books we will be using, we are mostly just using Advanced Player's guide, the core book and the Mythic book as well as some books i have (Ultimate Intrigue, Ultimate Campaign, Horror) with spells from anything save core have to be researched as new spells mostly. And the Gunslinger is an exception but we are keeping fairly simple on that for base rules too.Limiting sources may not necessarily be a bad idea, although I'd strongly recommend you actually judge things on a case-by-case basis instead if you think you're up for it. Otherwise, I think it's worth noting that your chosen sources largely benefit casters more than non-casters, so depending on the players, this may be good or bad for party balance.

And speaking of, assuming nobody intends to do much multiclassing, it appears especially the more damage oriented full casters, alchemist and gunslinger are going to crowd the ranged damage combat role/niche quite a bit, with the gunslinger being the far easiest to build and play for pretty insane damage numbers, especially in comparison to the full casters. And judging by the gunslinger's build plans, it also appears the player has already got a pretty decent grasp on how to do that. If those casters are also played by more inexperienced players, I believe there's a definite risk those players will soon start to feel their characters are becoming increasingly redundant in combat. That is of course unless those players are also unusually quick learners and have their PCs start to focus more heavily on the potentially far more powerful debuff/control and/or buff/leader aspects instead, even though those aspects are typically more difficult to understand as well as to build and play for effectively.

Conversely, I also believe there's a definite risk the gunslinger's player will start to feel their PC is becoming increasingly redundant outside of combat a few more levels in, since all the other PCs are casters and will therefore likely often have vastly more mechanically effective and/or numerous applicable responses/solutions to any given situation or challenge. This is doubly true for the prepared casters, especially if they're also played by the less inexperienced players.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the necromancer cleric has a greater potential than any of the other PC's in most games, especially in comparison to the gunslinger. And it appears to me the cleric player also has a rather good understanding of how to tap into that potential.

In other words, the party consists of five PCs with very versatile classes and one PC with a class rather infamous for its one-dimensional single-target ranged damage focus. And the three full casters have both comparatively low optimization floors and very high optimization ceilings, on top of at least having the potential to gain vastly more from their mythic tiers, which makes it difficult to predict how powerful they'll actually end up. So I think the lone cowboy non-caster unfortunately has a high risk of soon becoming an odd duck which could make it very difficult for you to properly balance the challenges for this party. At least if you're not well aware of the risk and can start working on mitigating that risk before it can become an actually serious problem.


They have either of these starting stats (or can roll themselves)
18 18 16 15 14 0
17 17 17 16 15 14

So it seems that most of the players are wanting to take a level penalty and all be Drow Nobles (which fits with the story which is a continuation of our previous story, i will describe later) I know they are overpowered especially at low levels but if everyone is doing it it's no problem to me. Definitely going to make them feel tough even if they are lower levelsUh... So up to the equivalent of no less than a whopping 61-point buy, more than three times the "typical" 20-point buy, on top of the race with the arguably greatest bonuses and benefits of all published for many build types? :smalleek:

Fair enough, just as long as you're aware of just how much more powerful this actually makes the PCs and you're able to match the challenges accordingly. This is especially in terms of them lacking any serious weaknesses, at least before mid levels, while they still have all the stats relevant to their focus areas starting extremely high.

Out of curiosity, what method did you offer to match these pre-made arrays if a player had wanted to roll stats instead? Something like 8d6 drop the lowest 5 for each stat?


We play a very heavy roleplaying type of game where all of the players realize a decent Charisma is an important stat so no one will treat that as there dump stat. The players will be getting a boat early in their game stats (about 4th level) and it will be a combination of exploration, piracy and diplomatic campaign. Another thing to note is that all my players don’t alway come for every game so players have to have characters that are fairly flexible in group roles.This kind of versatility is what I fear the gunslinger sorely lacks, especially in comparison to the other classes in the party. You may of course compensate for that to some degree, for example by prioritizing treasure which helps the gunslinger increase their general versatility rather than their damage focus. You could also perhaps suggest they switch for the good Mysterious Stranger archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Gunslinger/archetypes/paizo-gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger), giving them a generally more versatile Cha-focus instead of Wis.


So the group right now looks like it will be this, yes it doesn’t look like there will be a strong melee/front line fighter for the group, but it looks like a few other classes will be pulling support on this role as well as planning to use undead minions as front line fighters. I don't think this will be a problem, unless you work hard on making it one, of course. The need for a dedicated melee front liner PC is often vastly overrated, especially in a party which consists of classes as versatile as these. Also, most of the classes which are often regarded as the best at fulfilling that role, like the classic martial melee "meat shields", are also those which have the greatest risk of quickly becoming redundant in this kind of party.

I hope this gave you at least something new to consider.

[savageplay]

thanks for your response.

Mostly i am asking for things like you have mentioned for when they level so I can help balance the group which is my biggest concern. I have been helping them with their initial builds and in the past i have always leveled their character for them and this time i want them to be able to do it their selves. Why i started this thread so they can come here for reference from more advanced players. And as pretty much noob players still it can be overwhelming with some of the choices. That was especially true in the last game where it got up to incredibly high levels (19th + mythic) and old players trickled out and these new players started joining in at i think the high levels where just overwhelming for the group.

That is why i don't care if the group is incredibly tough for their level (if they are balanced). the starting stats is i rolled a few sample sets (at 4d6 drop the lowest # 7 times and keep 6) and got really lucky. We started having a 'default set' of stats you could have from a previous game where one player had incredible stats and another player had barely above average and we thought it was a good option to be able to balance stats out...i just got really lucky is all. But since they are coming from playing 19th level (+mythic), and are still all fairly new, i am not too worried about them feeling 'too tough' as they are going to feel a power loss as is.

About resources ya nothing is in stone, its more to not overwhelm the group and we do always end up looking for everything in book form instead of online so i am just trying to keep things as simple for the players as i can. I was worried about the damage of those two classes too especially for the sorcerer build not keeping up, but was content that the straight ability of spellcasting (especially with the Wildmagic mythic ability) would easily balance that out. My past experience is Arcane spellcasters never had a problem with damage. The players who are the Witch and the Bard aren't the types of players that are overly concerned with damage, but just want to have fun and be useful so i am not too worried about them, as those two classes are very good at being useful without having to think to much.

I will look into the gunslinger archtype, the character would rather be charisma focused over wisdom so that could be really good for that player.

I agree it's a lot of spellcasters and one lone wolf without and that will make things balanced. I am hoping the drow noble spells will help balance that out for him (even though they will be common abilities in the group) and this has made me think that maybe he can have some of his future mythic powers not focus on damage, and more versatile or fun things as you have stated that damage will just come naturally enough for him.

I am in the midst of creating a website for the group as well as we bought a good mic to record this (we agreed we are all horrible note keepers so this was the easiest method for us) and have used google docs in the past to keep copies of the character sheets, so the whole game will be able to be followed easily for future suggestions for those that are interested.

Thanks for the feedback.