Murderjacks Are Too Powerful for their CR?

[ColorBlindNinja]

So, I'm running a D&D game at the moment, and I had my (ECL 8) players fight a (CR 9) Murderjack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a). I mostly picked this monster because I always thought it was a cool concept, in retrospect, I really should have read its statblock more closely. :smallredface:

They tried setting a trap for it, but when that didn't work, they decided to find its lair and ambush it there.

While they were wandering in the forest trying to find the Murderjack's lair, it ambushed them. The ensuing battle didn't go so well for the players. In short, all but 2 of them failed their saves VS frightful presence.

The Druid only had half or so of her health left, and the Rogue doesn't have any cold iron weapons. The only PC who did ran deeper into the woods, screaming at the top of his lungs.

I only made one change to the Murderjack as written; I swapped Cat's Grace for Invisibility. My reasoning was the latter is very useful to a monster that uses hit and run tactics, while he'd never cast the former.



Arguments for why the Murderjack is overpowered for CR 9:

- DC 23 Will save to avoid becoming panicked (unless you have 15+ HD).
- 7d6 Sneak Attack damage (as a 13th level Rogue).
- Casts as a 10th level Bard.
- 20% miss chance as long as its in a forest (you know, where Murderjacks are commonly found).
- Once per hour, it can move up to its full speed as a free action.

EDIT: More reasons

- DR 10/cold iron
- Fair amount of HP (112)


What do you think? Are there other reasons that the Murderjack is OP? Am I completely wrong and it's not that bad? Please let me know.

Thanks!

[Silly Name]

In the name of Pelor, who is the madman that statted this thing as a CR 9? In addition to what you listed, this thing has Spell Resistance 21, which means a level appropriate caster could pierce it less than half of the times they attack, ungodly skill ranks, a bunch of feats and...

The abilities. My gods, the abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 22

This thing has ability scores that can rival with those of a juvenile dragon. Admittedly, juvenile dragons tend to have a CR between 8 and 10, but they're dragons, don't have frightful presence yet and have way less special abilities. And these murderjacks apparently hunt in packs? At least dragons have the decency to be solitary creatures!

A lot of the problems you've evidenced wouldn't be so bad, if the creature had just one or two of said special abilities (for example, DR 10 might be high, but if you know you're going to fight a fey you should get some cold iron weapons anyway). But as it is, murderjacks have a bunch of powerful abilities which make them tremendous foes for a level 9 party.

[eggynack]

It does seem somewhat over-CR'd, yeah. I'm not sure why I'd want, say, a 9th level bard over this, or even a 10th level bard. It was probably a mistake to swap for invisibility, because invisibility is good and cat's grace is bad, but I doubt going the other way would have rendered the monster too much weaker. It's definitely plausible that a 9th level character with better than 50% odds against the murderjack could be constructed, but I think that says more for how imbalanced the game is generally than for any sort of weakness on the monster's part.

You're arguably leaving some of its crazy out, even. Like, in addition to the stuff you said, it also has a good strength score and solid BAB. Also, the SR is irritating. Combine those with the stuff you said, and the murderjack might just be better at beating enemies up than level 9 or 10 martial characters, even without the bard stuff. Even its feats are surprisingly optimal, with combat reflexes and improved initiative as classically good options. Weird monster.

[tyckspoon]

It's a trick monster; if you are vulnerable to its trick (getting rushed from concealment and Sneak Attacked while still flat-footed, subject to Fear) it can be very nasty. If you're not, well, it's pretty weak, at least solo - that 7d6 Sneak Attack may be mean, but after it blows its initial concealment/surprise round it has no means of triggering it. A lone murderjack can't flank, and none of its default abilities allow it to cause flatfoot or become undetectable again (this is probably why it doesn't have invisibility as a default spell.. although 8th and 9th level characters should have several ways to handle invisible attackers by that point.) Without that Sneak Attack its damage output is pathetic for the CR. It does have reasonable defensive abilities, with DR, concealment, and above-average Spell Resistance for the CR, but that won't prevent most parties from beating it.. unless they get feared apart and wind up with one or two party members getting stuck in a solo fight against a CR9 critter. The fear aura is probably the worst of it, since anybody who falls subject to it is effectively removed from the battle.

So.. if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably about right, aside from the fear aura - that's a potent non-action save-or-lose thrown at the entire party, and unlike most Frightening Presence type abilities the party can't count on being too high HD to be significantly affected because the thing has way more HD than its CR and no dragon-style exception for the target being non-puny. That bit is probably overtuned.

[ManicOppressive]

In addition to the previous posts, the spell entry for the murderjack mentions simply that those are the spells known for a typical Murderjack, meaning it's not off-block to give it any Bard spells you want. 10th level Bard casting and 13th level Rogue sneak attacking on a 15HD creature with stats that match is a CR9 in the same way that 4 Orcs with Scimitars is a CR1.

That's not to say there's no way to beat one with an 8th level party, but you're talking about actual optimization at that point. The Murderjack looks like a good match for an average level 10 or 11 party, to me.

[eggynack]

Snip
It's probably more or less a trick monster if you discount the fact that they get 10th level bard casting. But, y'know, they do have 10th level bard casting. It's a higher level version of the best ability of a tier three class being used in a not especially sub-optimal way. I'd obviously make different spell selections, but there are some strong entries there, some with offensive capabilities.

[tyckspoon]

.. My previous post makes it sound like it's not too bad, but in general effective casting of a level greater than CR should be a red flag that something is off about the CR assignment. The only way this one gets away with it is it's Bard casting, and that the default selected spells aren't great - give it, like, Glitterdust and Improved Invisibility and see what happens when it charges the party with half of them blind, some of blind and running away in an uncontrolled panic, and the remainder who kept his nerve and can still see unable to detect it anyways because the guy who carries See Invisibility/Glitterdust/Faerie Fire failed one of the saves against Blind or Fear and can't hep.

[aimlessPolymath]

Vorpal Tribble's calculator gives it at about CR 11-12, (using a +5 bonus for sneak attack and spellcasting each, since they're so strong)

[Thurbane]

Anything with spellcasting of a level higher than it's CR tends to be OP. Throw in the sneak attack of 13th level rogue, 15 HD, 20% miss chance, decent stats and other goodies, and yeah...

[ColorBlindNinja]

In the name of Pelor, who is the madman that statted this thing as a CR 9? In addition to what you listed, this thing has Spell Resistance 21, which means a level appropriate caster could pierce it less than half of the times they attack, ungodly skill ranks, a bunch of feats and...

The abilities. My gods, the abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 22

This thing has ability scores that can rival with those of a juvenile dragon. Admittedly, juvenile dragons tend to have a CR between 8 and 10, but they're dragons, don't have frightful presence yet and have way less special abilities. And these murderjacks apparently hunt in packs? At least dragons have the decency to be solitary creatures!

I'm guessing that's a definite "yes".


A lot of the problems you've evidenced wouldn't be so bad, if the creature had just one or two of said special abilities (for example, DR 10 might be high, but if you know you're going to fight a fey you should get some cold iron weapons anyway). But as it is, murderjacks have a bunch of powerful abilities which make them tremendous foes for a level 9 party.

Yeah, it does seem to have a lot of abilities, doesn't it?


It does seem somewhat over-CR'd, yeah. I'm not sure why I'd want, say, a 9th level bard over this, or even a 10th level bard.

I'm of the opinion that a monster shouldn't have higher spellcasting than its CR.


It was probably a mistake to swap for invisibility, because invisibility is good and cat's grace is bad,

:smallredface:


but I doubt going the other way would have rendered the monster too much weaker.

Glad I didn't screw up too much.


It's definitely plausible that a 9th level character with better than 50% odds against the murderjack could be constructed, but I think that says more for how imbalanced the game is generally than for any sort of weakness on the monster's part.

Oh, definitely.


You're arguably leaving some of its crazy out, even. Like, in addition to the stuff you said, it also has a good strength score and solid BAB. Also, the SR is irritating. Combine those with the stuff you said, and the murderjack might just be better at beating enemies up than level 9 or 10 martial characters, even without the bard stuff. Even its feats are surprisingly optimal, with combat reflexes and improved initiative as classically good options. Weird monster.

Thanks for the analysis.


It's a trick monster; if you are vulnerable to its trick (getting rushed from concealment and Sneak Attacked while still flat-footed, subject to Fear) it can be very nasty. If you're not, well, it's pretty weak, at least solo

Maybe a Paladin would work here, since they're immune to fear?


- that 7d6 Sneak Attack may be mean, but after it blows its initial concealment/surprise round it has no means of triggering it. A lone murderjack can't flank, and none of its default abilities allow it to cause flatfoot or become undetectable again

So it can make an alpha strike, but can't do much afterwards. But could it disengage the party and come back later? That wouldn't work on high OP groups admittedly, but still.


(this is probably why it doesn't have invisibility as a default spell..

Yeah, I think it synergized a bit too well with the Murderjack's abilities. Guess it's my inner optimizer showing.


although 8th and 9th level characters should have several ways to handle invisible attackers by that point.)

True.


Without that Sneak Attack its damage output is pathetic for the CR. It does have reasonable defensive abilities, with DR, concealment, and above-average Spell Resistance for the CR, but that won't prevent most parties from beating it.. unless they get feared apart and wind up with one or two party members getting stuck in a solo fight against a CR9 critter. The fear aura is probably the worst of it, since anybody who falls subject to it is effectively removed from the battle.

Yeah, and its frightful presence has a pretty high DC, too.


So.. if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably about right, aside from the fear aura - that's a potent non-action save-or-lose thrown at the entire party, and unlike most Frightening Presence type abilities the party can't count on being too high HD to be significantly affected because the thing has way more HD than its CR and no dragon-style exception for the target being non-puny. That bit is probably overtuned.

Thanks for giving me your take on this.

[Caudex Capite]

Comparing it to a solid beatstick of a CR9, like a Young Adult Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), I think it compares reasonably well. It's got (much) better SR and DR, but less HP and AC, and similar saves, so defensively it's pretty solid, but not ridiculously so. It's less mobile than a dragon in flight (but still very mobile with that climb speed), and I think the Breath Weapon and Sneak Attack balance out reasonably well. The dragon is way, way more effective on a full attack (at least after the Murderjack has blown its sneak attack, which it can't really re-use), but the Murderjack's Frightful Presence is much, much better. I think it mostly comes down to spell selection. If you use the spells as given, the Murderjack doesn't get a whole lot of utility out of them in a fight, and I think the black dragon is arguably scarier. If you optimize them, it's almost certainly a scarier opponent than the dragon.

The spells and the frightful presence are the two highest variance things there, I think. If it uses the spells suggested and the party has at least one melee combatant that can fight despite the fear (whether by save or immunity or whatever else), they're probably able to bring it down - 2 +13 claws at 1d6+5 damage each is not a scary full attack for CR9.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Comparing it to a solid beatstick of a CR9, like a Young Adult Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), I think it compares reasonably well.

I was under the impression that most dragons are overpowered for their CR. Is that so?


It's got (much) better SR and DR, but less HP and AC, and similar saves, so defensively it's pretty solid, but not ridiculously so. It's less mobile than a dragon in flight (but still very mobile with that climb speed), and I think the Breath Weapon and Sneak Attack balance out reasonably well. The dragon is way, way more effective on a full attack (at least after the Murderjack has blown its sneak attack, which it can't really re-use), but the Murderjack's Frightful Presence is much, much better.

Interesting analysis.


I think it mostly comes down to spell selection.

Worth noting: there are a ton of feats to improve dragons (breath weapons especially). I think those would also be worth considering.


If you use the spells as given, the Murderjack doesn't get a whole lot of utility out of them in a fight,

Yeah, don't ask me why it has so many Cure spells.


and I think the black dragon is arguably scarier.

What sort of spells do sample dragon statblocks have?


If you optimize them, it's almost certainly a scarier opponent than the dragon.

I'm inclined to agree. If the Murderjack picked up Glibness, it's already good bluff modifier becomes insane.

It could put on a dress and tell the PCs that it's a schoolgirl, and they wouldn't be able to tell it's lying.


The spells and the frightful presence are the two highest variance things there, I think. If it uses the spells suggested and the party has at least one melee combatant that can fight despite the fear (whether by save or immunity or whatever else), they're probably able to bring it down - 2 +13 claws at 1d6+5 damage each is not a scary full attack for CR9.

I think it's the frightful presence that's the real kicker here. WIS based casters with good WILL saves should be able to pass it on average rolls, but the rest of the party? Good luck.

[tyckspoon]

I was under the impression that most dragons are overpowered for their CR. Is that so?


Yeah, don't ask me why it has so many Cure spells.


I'm inclined to agree. If the Murderjack picked up Glibness, it's already good bluff modifier becomes insane.

It could put on a dress and tell the PCs that it's a schoolgirl, and they wouldn't be able to tell it's lying.


The description says they like to play with their victims, running them down to near-death, curing them, and letting them run again before eventually going in for the actual kill. The cure spells come from that, although they don't really need more than one to do it. The higher-level ones are probably meant for self-healing/healing their hunting pack? They've got a decent chunk of HP, and I suppose it adds a bit to the implacability/horror of the creature if you finally manage to land a decent shot through the defenses and it just laughs at you and heals.

And yeah, give one of these something like Glibness/Disguise Self or Alter Self/Hallucinatory Terrain and you'd have a potentially very interesting/mean fairytale encounter sort of setpiece. The party encounters a seemingly-friendly Dryad or something who convinces them they can offer a safe resting spot for the night. The whole area is magic, but that's explained off as hiding the Dryad's area from the malevolent forces occupying the forest .. the party's suspicions are allayed with a combination of Diplomacy and impenetrable Bluff checks, so they set up camp for the evening. And then, at midnight, the hunt begins. The comforting widely-spaced copse is revealed to be a thorny thicket, and the murderjack drops its cover, rips bloody strips out of the back of the Fighter, and shrieks with bloodthirst and joy as its fear aura scatters the party in all directions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The description says they like to play with their victims, running them down to near-death, curing them, and letting them run again before eventually going in for the actual kill. The cure spells come from that, although they don't really need more than one to do it. The higher-level ones are probably meant for self-healing/healing their hunting pack? They've got a decent chunk of HP, and I suppose it adds a bit to the implacability/horror of the creature if you finally manage to land a decent shot through the defenses and it just laughs at you and heals.

Good point. But they have a cure spell for every spell level but 4th. Just seems odd to me.


And yeah, give one of these something like Glibness/Disguise Self or Alter Self/Hallucinatory Terrain and you'd have a potentially very interesting/mean fairytale encounter sort of setpiece. The party encounters a seemingly-friendly Dryad or something who convinces them they can offer a safe resting spot for the night. The whole area is magic, but that's explained off as hiding the Dryad's area from the malevolent forces occupying the forest .. the party's suspicions are allayed with a combination of Diplomacy and impenetrable Bluff checks, so they set up camp for the evening. And then, at midnight, the hunt begins. The comforting widely-spaced copse is revealed to be a thorny thicket, and the murderjack drops its cover, rips bloody strips out of the back of the Fighter, and shrieks with bloodthirst and joy as its fear aura scatters the party in all directions.

*Furiously scribbles notes.*

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja
*Furiously scribbles notes.*

This. :smalltongue:



How would you scale down a murderjack if you wanted it to be a CR 4-5 threat?

[Silly Name]

I was under the impression that most dragons are overpowered for their CR. Is that so?

I wouldn't say they're overpowered, but they were most likely meant to be the top brass of their CRs. Seeing a non-dragon creature who isn't described as such a pinnacle of both physical and mental form have stats that can compete with dragons comes off as jarring.

20 Str and 18 Con should make the murderjack an hulking brute, not a lithe sprite of death that dashes around trees and bushes.

[tyckspoon]

How would you scale down a murderjack if you wanted it to be a CR 4-5 threat?

mm.. probably drop the DR to 5/Cold Iron. SR scaled down appropriately, set to wherever you want for success rate - CR+11 is the rough benchmark for 'this is a serious impediment' (50% or better failure rate against CR=level casters without special efforts to boost caster level or get penetration bonsuses), CR+5 is more on 'this is annoying, but probably will not stop players from casting spells at it.' Change the fear aura to only cause Shaken or give a specific short duration to the Panic effect, so that affected characters are penalized but can still fight or have a reasonable chance to get back into the fight. Reduce the Sneak Attack bonus to something more sensible, of course, or maybe swap it for some other effect that gives conditional bonus damage - maybe it does an extra d6 or 2 to enemies affected by its fear aura. Maybe drop the casting altogether or change it for some specific set thematic/useful SLAs for the kind of encounter you want it to be.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I wouldn't say they're overpowered, but they were most likely meant to be the top brass of their CRs. Seeing a non-dragon creature who isn't described as such a pinnacle of both physical and mental form is a bit... Jarring.

Interesting.


20 Str and 18 Con should make the murderjack an hulking brute, not a lithe sprite of death that dashes around trees and bushes.

Worth noting: Murderjacks are 7 feet tall, so they're rather large for a medium creature. But they're skeletal, weighing only a 100 pounds.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
Maybe drop the casting altogether or change it for some specific set thematic/useful SLAs for the kind of encounter you want it to be.

There seems to be a general feeling that the casting is fairly strong on this thing. If I dropped the casting entirely, what sorts of SLAs would be appropriate for CR 4-5?

[tyckspoon]

There seems to be a general feeling that the casting is fairly strong on this thing. If I dropped the casting entirely, what sorts of SLAs would be appropriate for CR 4-5?

Depends on what you want it to doing; my sense of the intent of the creature is an ambush hunter/stalker, so I'd look for things that interfere with movement and/or vision. Things that help give that sense that you don't know where it'll attack from or how to get away from it. So.. things like Fog Cloud, Darkness, Entangle, and Web, plus perhaps abilities that allow it to mitigate or ignore the penalties from those. Keep a Cure Light or Cure Moderate wounds in there, because I rather like the 'chases prey to death only to cure them and do it again for the lulz' thing. You don't want so many that most of them won't reasonably be used, or enough variety that you have to stop and think about which one it ought to be using, unless you want it to be a caster enemy instead of a physical attacker.

[Elkad]

I always chuckle when a party has problems due to failure to prep for Damage Reduction. (not that that is the entire problem here)

What kind of doofus rogue (or anyone else, including the wizard) doesn't have a cold iron weapon at level EIGHT? Demons and Fey aren't exactly rare.
Not realizing you need it? Sure. Just plain not having one, except in a naked jailbreak situation? Unforgivable.

An extra 2gp to make your dagger cold iron instead of steel is perfectly reasonable at Level 1. It doesn't even have a penalty in normal use (unlike silver), so there is no reason for your backup metal weapon to NOT have it.
And of course the guy with the greatsword should have a cold iron morning star as a backup by L2 - covers cold iron, pierce and blunt all in one.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I always chuckle when a party has problems due to failure to prep for Damage Reduction. (not that that is the entire problem here)

In the interest of fairness all of my players save for one, perhaps, are noobs.


What kind of doofus rogue (or anyone else, including the wizard) doesn't have a cold iron weapon at level EIGHT? Demons and Fey aren't exactly rare.
Not realizing you need it? Sure. Just plain not having one, except in a naked jailbreak situation? Unforgivable.

An extra 2gp to make your dagger cold iron instead of steel is perfectly reasonable at Level 1. It doesn't even have a penalty in normal use (unlike silver), so there is no reason for your backup metal weapon to NOT have it.
And of course the guy with the greatsword should have a cold iron morning star as a backup by L2 - covers cold iron, pierce and blunt all in one.

The best part is, I tried to encourage them to buy silver and cold iron weapons. Only one player got cold iron, I guess the rest of them were worried about werewolves. :smallsmile:

[Elkad]

In the interest of fairness all of my players save for one, perhaps, are noobs.

I do like to drop appropriate weapons for bypassing DR, especially for noobs. I just do it far enough from the point of need that they have time to sell them off in town, and then regret it later. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elkad
What kind of doofus rogue (or anyone else, including the wizard) doesn't have a cold iron weapon at level EIGHT?

Most of the ones in groups I've played with. Call them names if you like.

[AlanBruce]

I came across this obscure fey thanks to Thurbane and his Monster Manual VI thread and loved the creature immediately.

Admittedly, having it travel in packs makes it already lethal, since that means a bunch of SA damage and 10th level bard casting hitting the party in the surprise round, which they most likely will succeed in, given their high modifiers to Hide and Move Silently.

The CR needs to be bumped up one, maybe twi points, depending on how optimization or lack there of is in the party.

I built one adding a few levels of arcane trickster (I think it’s natural bard spellcasting should allow it to qualify) and will have him with a few Splinterwaifs (MM3), to assist with the flanking and sneaking.

Spells were changed to better fit the style my players use, so using all sources available at the table.

And after reading its entry, I would make it a solitary creature. As in, just one found of its type in any given encounter, usually as a leader, unless it’s sent solo against the party.

It is called a Murderjack, after all- a fitting name for a monster fit to fight Murderhobos.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I do like to drop appropriate weapons for bypassing DR, especially for noobs. I just do it far enough from the point of need that they have time to sell them off in town, and then regret it later. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Probably a good idea. I might start handing out treasure made of silver and cold iron.


Most of the ones in groups I've played with. Call them names if you like.

In fairness, Wizards have spells that tend to bypass DR.


I came across this obscure fey thanks to Thurbane and his Monster Manual VI thread and loved the creature immediately.

The fluff was a big part of what drew me to the Murderjack in the first place.


Admittedly, having it travel in packs makes it already lethal, since that means a bunch of SA damage and 10th level bard casting hitting the party in the surprise round, which they most likely will succeed in, given their high modifiers to Hide and Move Silently.

According to the encounter calculator, 4 Murderjacks should be an easy encounter for 4 level 14 PCs. I'm betting that's not the case for a decent sized chunks of potential parties.


The CR needs to be bumped up one, maybe twi points, depending on how optimization or lack there of is in the party.

Agreed.


I built one adding a few levels of arcane trickster (I think it’s natural bard spellcasting should allow it to qualify)

That could be tricky if you gave them a bow.


and will have him with a few Splinterwaifs (MM3), to assist with the flanking and sneaking.

Nasty.


Spells were changed to better fit the style my players use, so using all sources available at the table.

I think changing the spells could make the easily make the Murderjack x10 worse.


And after reading its entry, I would make it a solitary creature. As in, just one found of its type in any given encounter, usually as a leader, unless it’s sent solo against the party.

Yeah, just having some allies to set up flanking can make the Murderjack even worse.


It is called a Murderjack, after all- a fitting name for a monster fit to fight Murderhobos.

True. :smallsmile:



A quick update on my group:

The Murderjack ambushed the Druid when she was on her way to rendezvous with the rest of the group. I had to have an NPC save her, or she would have died (unless the Murderjack opted not to use Sneak Attack for some reason).

Thinking back, they probably should have brought their Treant friend who gave them the quest in the first place. That might have turned the tide nicely. Plants are immune to Sneak Attack and morale effects. Fear is a morale effect, right?

[Telok]

The suckers have 15 Int, expeditious retreat, slow, deep slumber, and dimension door on top of a 50' speed and decent stealth + auto-concealment in forests. They should be hit and run gods in a forest at levels 9 - 10.

Personally I'd give them a +1 cr when not holding an idiot ball, a +1 to +2 circumstance cr bonus for favored terrain (depending on harass/assault goals), and consider them at +1 ot +2 cr in groups (depending on teamwork). So in a well coordinated group, set to harass and weaken, in a forest, run as 15 int monsters, I'd put them at cr 14 each.

[tyckspoon]

According to the encounter calculator, 4 Murderjacks should be an easy encounter for 4 level 14 PCs. I'm betting that's not the case for a decent sized chunks of potential parties.

Yeah, just having some allies to set up flanking can make the Murderjack even worse.


By level 14 you can reasonably expect characters to be immune or highly resistant to both Fear/Mind-affecting and Sneak Attacks, through things like Fortification/being unflankable/unable to be caught flatfooted, a daily Hero's Feast buff, or just having much better Will saves and the resources to buff up weak base saves, as well as the general increase in combat stats that comes with levels and higher wealth. That takes a lot of the edge off the monster, and as I mentioned.. in a straight slugging match, they're not the most intimidating things. You'd be leaning a lot harder on their casting to make up the difference at that level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

By level 14 you can reasonably expect characters to be immune or highly resistant to both Fear/Mind-affecting and Sneak Attacks, through things like Fortification/being unflankable/unable to be caught flatfooted, a daily Hero's Feast buff, or just having much better Will saves and the resources to buff up weak base saves, as well as the general increase in combat stats that comes with levels and higher wealth. That takes a lot of the edge off the monster, and as I mentioned.. in a straight slugging match, they're not the most intimidating things. You'd be leaning a lot harder on their casting to make up the difference at that level.

True, but I was thinking mostly about fairly low-OP groups. I suspect a well put to together party wouldn't have as much trouble, whether fighting a single Murderjack at level 9 or 4 of them at level 14.

[AlanBruce]

The suckers have 15 Int, expeditious retreat, slow, deep slumber, and dimension door on top of a 50' speed and decent stealth + auto-concealment in forests. They should be hit and run gods in a forest at levels 9 - 10.

Personally I'd give them a +1 cr when not holding an idiot ball, a +1 to +2 circumstance cr bonus for favored terrain (depending on harass/assault goals), and consider them at +1 ot +2 cr in groups (depending on teamwork). So in a well coordinated group, set to harass and weaken, in a forest, run as 15 int monsters, I'd put them at cr 14 each.

That's how I usually run fey in my games- lesser forest deities. Given that in their natural habitat, they are usually at the top of their game, since they have a plethora abilities to dominate the battlefield and make life miserable for outsiders snooping in for a quick kill and loot (usually the PCs).

The Murderjack is pretty much the whole package: Stealth, Fear abilities, Spells, Concealment, Scary SA damage potential, superior speed (most likely better than any PC in the party when it ambushes someone, even if they have buffs or items on.)

The only thing I regret about it is that the writer didn't include an image for it. Yes, it is described as a glow eyed long legged elf, but not much else to look for an appropriate image online.

[Thurbane]

I pictured them like the River Ghost from Predators, but with a more elven face...

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/riverghost2.jpg


The creature steps out from behind the gnarled tree on legs a bit too thin and a bit too long to be truly human. Its overall shape is humanoid, except it is emaciated nearly to the point of being skeletal. Its skin has a mottled brown and green hue, and it almost looks like tree bark in texture. Its long arms each end in three-fingered hands tipped with long, curved talons with cruel serrations along the inner curve. Yet the menace's head is perhaps the most disturbing. Roughly human-shaped, its face is that of a handsome elven man, except that the eyes and mouth are cold, dark gashes that flicker with tiny motes of light, like stars in the night sky.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I pictured them like the River Ghost from Predators, but with a more elven face...

Come to think of it, Murderjacks are a lot like the Predator, aren't they? Give them invisibility like I did, put a laser rifle in their hands and BAM, Predator.

EDIT:

Or give it the plasma rifle from D20 Future, you know, for authenticity.

[AlanBruce]

I pictured them like the River Ghost from Predators, but with a more elven face...

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/riverghost2.jpg



That’s a very good image! I found one of a skeletal looking Wendigo, but wasn’t really getting the “fantasy woodland killer” vibe.

I thought about a Slenderman rendition, but too aberrationesque for what the Murderjack is, although fey are known to come in all shapes and sizes.

[Elkad]

Most of the ones in groups I've played with. Call them names if you like.

Failure to plan on the player's part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

We just had another thread where a high-level party of non-darkvision characters was still using torches. And didn't have very many.

I subscribe to the old-school method of planning. The party is full of all those extra things. We have meetings to plan our loadout to see who needs to carry what. Crowbar, mirror, 10' pole, belladonna, silver weapons, cold-iron weapons, wooden weapons, weapons for slash/crush/pierce, miles of rope, garlic, ink, string, chalk, bells, iron spikes, extra sacks, flint&steel, oil, vials, manacles, locks, holy water, anarchic water, blankets, picks, shovels, bedtime (light) armor, etc. Everyone has several backup light sources, even if they all have darkvision, and at least one of those sources is immune to water/wind.
At higher levels, you add a bunch of other conditional stuff. Who wouldn't have a potion of Water Breathing if they could afford one - in any terrain other than the Aiel Waste anyway - , or a potion of Reduce Person in case they needed to get through a rat tunnel.

Because immunities happen. As does needing to run/rest from monsters, and wanting to spike/lock/trap a door. Or wanting to see what's down that well (besides 130' of empty space and a foot of muddy water) before you climb down. Or needing something better than a table leg to beat a rust monster with.

[Eldariel]

.. My previous post makes it sound like it's not too bad, but in general effective casting of a level greater than CR should be a red flag that something is off about the CR assignment. The only way this one gets away with it is it's Bard casting, and that the default selected spells aren't great - give it, like, Glitterdust and Improved Invisibility and see what happens when it charges the party with half of them blind, some of blind and running away in an uncontrolled panic, and the remainder who kept his nerve and can still see unable to detect it anyways because the guy who carries See Invisibility/Glitterdust/Faerie Fire failed one of the saves against Blind or Fear and can't hep.

It has some top tier spells for their level too though, Confusion and Slow for instance.

Still, their spell loadout kinda sucks. They could have Blink for sneak attacks all day vs. even things that see through Invisibility. They could have Scry instead of Locate Creature to enact Scry'n'dies. They could (and should) have Glibness and Alter Self as mentioned. While good spells, they have an overabundance of things that target Will and little of anything else. Simple Grease would be a significant increase in power. Heroism + (Greater) Invisibility would be a kind of a gimme (their attack bonus actually kinda sucks for CR9). Mirror Image and Dispel Magic would round them out nicely.

Haste isn't that bad either. Kinda play up the gish angle, enable them to threaten someone with all the Heart of X spells up, let them attack saves other than Will (Clerics and Druids have little to fear of them), etc. Even a Summon Monster IV would be nice just to produce flank buddies and perhaps some Dretches or whatever for SLA spam (Stinking Cloud hits Fort). Though Shadow Conjuration would also be nice.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Failure to plan on the player's part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

We just had another thread where a high-level party of non-darkvision characters was still using torches. And didn't have very many.

I subscribe to the old-school method of planning. The party is full of all those extra things. We have meetings to plan our loadout to see who needs to carry what. Crowbar, mirror, 10' pole, belladonna, silver weapons, cold-iron weapons, wooden weapons, weapons for slash/crush/pierce, miles of rope, garlic, ink, string, chalk, bells, iron spikes, extra sacks, flint&steel, oil, vials, manacles, locks, holy water, anarchic water, blankets, picks, shovels, bedtime (light) armor, etc. Everyone has several backup light sources, even if they all have darkvision, and at least one of those sources is immune to water/wind.
At higher levels, you add a bunch of other conditional stuff. Who wouldn't have a potion of Water Breathing if they could afford one - in any terrain other than the Aiel Waste anyway - , or a potion of Reduce Person in case they needed to get through a rat tunnel.

Because immunities happen. As does needing to run/rest from monsters, and wanting to spike/lock/trap a door. Or wanting to see what's down that well (besides 130' of empty space and a foot of muddy water) before you climb down. Or needing something better than a table leg to beat a rust monster with.

I hope your party doesn't track weight. At higher levels, you can just get bags of holding, but carrying all that stuff could be difficult at low levels.


It has some top tier spells for their level too though, Confusion and Slow for instance.

Still, their spell loadout kinda sucks. They could have Blink for sneak attacks all day vs. even things that see through Invisibility. They could have Scry instead of Locate Creature to enact Scry'n'dies. They could (and should) have Glibness and Alter Self as mentioned. While good spells, they have an overabundance of things that target Will and little of anything else. Simple Grease would be a significant increase in power. Heroism + (Greater) Invisibility would be a kind of a gimme (their attack bonus actually kinda sucks for CR9). Mirror Image and Dispel Magic would round them out nicely.

Haste isn't that bad either. Kinda play up the gish angle, enable them to threaten someone with all the Heart of X spells up, let them attack saves other than Will (Clerics and Druids have little to fear of them), etc. Even a Summon Monster IV would be nice just to produce flank buddies and perhaps some Dretches or whatever for SLA spam (Stinking Cloud hits Fort). Though Shadow Conjuration would also be nice.

Oh yeah, their default spells are definitely lacking. They have too many Cure spells (they really only need Cure Light Wounds).

Scry is only 3rd level for Bards, so it's an even better choice for them. Glitterdust would be sick (blind the party and enable Sneak Attack).

A squad of Murderjacks each with carefully picked spells would be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.

[Elkad]

I hope your party doesn't track weight. At higher levels, you can just get bags of holding, but carrying all that stuff could be difficult at low levels.

Of course we track weight. A typical party of 5 can carry at least 300 pounds of kit (not including armor, primary weapons, etc)
Incidentally, in my new campaign, there are no portable extradimensional spaces, and Teleportation is incredibly dangerous. I expect my players to be flying fairly quickly, but managing gear will always be a problem for them.

Packs can be dropped in combat (and sometimes lost in combat...). The high strength types go under a mountain of gear. Hirelings and Tenser's Disk and Mules are options.
And sometimes you have to leave gear behind to get the treasure out. Or to successfully run for your life.




“What is all this crap?” asked Nicholas. He lay on an unmade bed, his boots off and his hands behind his head. The morning sun slanted into the basement apartment. Clothes were strewn across the floor. On the rug in the center of the room, Garni had assembled a veritable mountain of equipment.
“This?” said the dwarf, waving at the pile.
“Yeah, that.”
“The caverns are dangerous, young Nick. One must be prepared.”
“Prepared for a six-month siege?” There were weapons, flasks, pouches of stuff, hand tools, boxes, torches, food, clothing, pieces of cloth. It looked, Nick thought, like the odd lots from an estate sale. “It’d take a week just to catalog it all. You got anything to eat?”
“Hardtack and pemmican.”
“Yuck,” Nick said.
“It’s all I can justify taking,” said Garni. “I need the room for more important things.”
“Like what?”
Garni picked up an item. “This.”
“A mirror? What do you want a mirror for?”
“I don’t know. To see around corners, maybe.”
“Yeah? I’d take a couple of roast chickens instead. How are you going to fit all this stuff in, anyway?” It was a fair question. The pile stood higher than Garni.
Garni shrugged. He maneuvered objects into his pack, trying to fit everything into the smallest possible space. He’d put something in the pack, move it around, decide it didn’t fit precisely right, and try something else. “I’ll manage,” he said.
Nick noticed a long pole sticking out of the pile. He pried it out; other objects slid and tumbled.
“Be careful!” Garni said.
“Sorry. You’ll never get this in, anyway.” It was more than double Garni’s height.
“Yes, I will,” said Garni, taking the pole. He disassembled it; it came apart into four segments.
“What is it?” asked Nick, as Garni strapped the segments to the side of the pack.
“An eleven-foot pole.”
“Why eleven feet?”
“There are some things I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole,” said Garni.
Nick chuckled. “You really think all this stuff is necessary?”
“Some of it we may not use. But any of these things might save our lives.”
“If you say so, Garni. Tell me something, though.” “What?”
“How much does all this weigh?”
Garni hefted his pack. “I’d guess about a hundred pounds, all told.”
“You’re really going to carry a hundred pounds of kit into the caverns?”
“Yes.”
“I thought the whole point was to bring stuff out of the caverns. Treasure. Jewels. Magic items. How are you going to carry anything out?”
Garni ran his fingers through his beard and smiled. “You’ll just have to carry my share of the treasure, Nicholas.”