Hypothesis: Conservation of Sayains

[keybounce]

I have a hypothesis, that I'd like to put out, and see if there is more evidence to confirm or rebut.

The hypothesis is simple: The power and strength of Sayains is inversely proportional to their number.

Got a planet full of them? They're weak, and you can destroy the whole planet.

Down to a single one? It's super strong, almost god-like.
Find a second? The power is shared between the two of them, and they're close to equal.
As they get stronger and stronger? Able to do almost anything? Marry, and have children. Heck, grandchildren. Now they're much weaker -- Heck, Goku even has trouble with a simple clone.

Your thoughts?

[Rynjin]

I'd say the first part of your hypothesis holds up to scrutiny, not the second. Goku continues to become stronger even as the race grows.

Counter-hypothesis: Conservation of Saiyan holds internally. The less Saiyan you have, even in your DNA, the stronger you get.

Gohan has demonstrably more potential than Goku ever did, with a much swifter rate of growth; Trunks and Goten are similar. Pan even more so, being able to fly before most children can crawl (a trick Goku didn't pick up until his late 20's) and easily able to survive the privations of the outer atmosphere with no discernible stress as a 1/4 Saiyan.

[Lord Raziere]

Except Kale and Caulifla come from parallel universe saiyans that never got wiped out. and they are fighting on par with SS blue Goku when they're both only like Super saiyan 2 or Super saiyan berserker, with no indication that they are "impure"

so both hypothesises don't work. there is an entire planet of saiyans out there and Goku is stronger than ever.

also, genes don't like that. if a saiyan is so similar as to crossbreed with a human, they would have to have similar genetics, so any offspring from them would inherit a variable number of traits which would make them more or less saiyan, which is why you can have genetic things that skip generations, every child is a bit of a dice roll.

[Rynjin]

Except Kale and Caulifla come from parallel universe saiyans that never got wiped out. and they are fighting on par with SS blue Goku when they're both only like Super saiyan 2 or Super saiyan berserker, with no indication that they are "impure"

so both hypothesises don't work. there is an entire planet of saiyans out there and Goku is stronger than ever.

Different universe, different rules. They both come from a universe where Broly is basiclaly canon; anything goes. Rebuttal dismised.


also, genes don't work like that. if a saiyan is so similar as to crossbreed with a human, they would have to have similar genetics, so any offspring from them would inherit a variable number of traits which would make them more or less saiyan, which is why you can have genetic things that skip generations, every child is a bit of a dice roll.

Fantasy genetics often do this way, however, which is consistent with Dragonball's setting. Half-breeds are usually uniform in traits and rarely have severe deviances beyond the cosmetic (hair and eye color, etc.).

[Lord Raziere]

Different universe, different rules. They both come from a universe where Broly is basiclaly canon; anything goes. Rebuttal dismised.



Fantasy genetics often do this way, however, which is consistent with Dragonball's setting. Half-breeds are usually uniform in traits and rarely have severe deviances beyond the cosmetic (hair and eye color, etc.).

Ah, but there is a Dragon Ball Super movie coming up where the REAL Broly is being made canon in universe 7. I dismiss your dismissal.

Except Gohan had a tail and Goten and Trunks did not. that is too major to be cosmetic.

[Rynjin]

Ah, but there is a Dragon Ball Super movie coming up where the REAL Broly is being made canon in universe 7. I dismiss your dismissal.

Is he canon canon or just movie canon again? I wasn't sure.


Except Gohan had a tail and Goten and Trunks did not. that is too major to be cosmetic.

OBJECTION!

Goten and Trunks don't have tails because Toriyama forgot/got tired of drawing them. We shouldn't use data like that to determine hypotheses (otherwise we'd have an awkward problem where Super Saiyan 2 doesn't exist (https://comicbook.com/2017/03/21/dragon-ball-akira-toriyama-super-saiyan-forms-anime/), for example).

[Lord Raziere]

Is he canon canon or just movie canon again? I wasn't sure.



OBJECTION!

Goten and Trunks don't have tails because Toriyama forgot/got tired of drawing them. We shouldn't use data like that to determine hypotheses (otherwise we'd have an awkward problem where Super Saiyan 2 doesn't exist (https://comicbook.com/2017/03/21/dragon-ball-akira-toriyama-super-saiyan-forms-anime/), for example).

They're going back to make Super Movies and not producing the series, and both Beerus and Res-F were canon.

ah, but super saiyan itself only came into existence itself because Toriyama got tired of inking Goku's hair black, so you'd have to ignore that Super Saiyan 1 exists. by your logic.

So which exists: Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 1? :smalltongue:

[Rynjin]

Not quite; one is a thing ADDED for convenience, the other SUBTRACTED. Same rules need not apply.

[Lord Raziere]

Not quite; one is a thing ADDED for convenience, the other SUBTRACTED. Same rules need not apply.

Well yeah, Toriyama ADDED genetic variance for convenience of varied character designs without needing to explain, even during Android Saga Future Trunks doesn't have the tail, so even before Buu Saga, Future Trunks had a major difference from Gohan. just as how Vegeta has genetic variance from Goku in that he can control his Oozaru form while other saiyans can't and that its simply a privilege of being born a high-class saiyan. we don't need an explanation, its implied.

[Rynjin]

A.) It's never stated WHY Trunk and goten have no tails; they could have simply been removed at/soon after birth for safety.

B.) We actually get an explanation from Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga on that one. =) He had training, which is technically a result of him being a Saiyan Elite, but not a genetic advantage; merely one of resources and leeway to train something that dangerous. It's the same reason he and Nappa aren't hindered by having their tail grabbed.

[Lord Raziere]

A.) It's never stated WHY Trunk and goten have no tails; they could have simply been removed at/soon after birth for safety.

B.) We actually get an explanation from Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga on that one. =) He had training, which is technically a result of him being a Saiyan Elite, but not a genetic advantage; merely one of resources and leeway to train something that dangerous. It's the same reason he and Nappa aren't hindered by having their tail grabbed.

A) But we definitely see Pan and Bulla not have a tail at birth, while Goku definitely did.

B) Okay.

C) Furthermore, we see Tarble, a survivor of his race's destruction, have a tail in Yo Son Goku and Friends Return, so its not just a case of Toriyama forgetting or being tired of it, since he went to the trouble of drawing a saiyan with a tail for a special.

[khadgar567]

considering there is 4 full blooded saiyan in the main universe( goku vegeta, brolly and cunber) i think saiyans needed a bench mark of power to be proper saiyans. considering next series gonna cannonize both brolly and cunber as legit characters toriyama might want to get his psychology checked near future. universe seven is to powerful for their own good and cream of the crop saiyans are getting revaled to quick even for a guy can ftl travel with a THOUGHT. whats realy next super saiyan 4 blue with kaioken or another pseudo transformation that gonna attempt to reset the scales.

[Prime32]

A.) It's never stated WHY Trunk and goten have no tails; they could have simply been removed at/soon after birth for safety.IIRC the official explanation is "because they weren't born in an environment where they'd need the ability to turn into Great Apes". Also that the Super Saiyan transformation is triggered by releasing a kind of energy that builds up in saiyan bodies over many years, and without a tail it builds up faster.