Aganazzar's Scorcher: did you ever see anyone use it?

[Unoriginal]

Aganazzar's Scorcher is apparently a spell brought over from several past editions.

It deals pretty decent damage for a lvl 2 spell, yet I've never seen it discussed or suggested.

Have you ever seen anyone select it? Is so outclassed by higher level fire spells people prefer to wait? Or is there just too many other lvl 2 spells more worth it in comparison?

[sithlordnergal]

I've seen plenty of people use it in my AL group. I think the main reason most people choose not to use it is because it is in Xanathar's. Outside of my AL group, most people I play with don't own Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and end up missing out on a lot of amazing spells.

[gloryblaze]

The most frequently cited reason I see for people rating Aganazzar's poorly is that it is almost strictly worse than Shatter. It does identical damage to Shatter, but with a worse damage type (fire vs. thunder) and an inferior AoE shape (30 ft. line from self vs. 10 ft. radius sphere within 60 ft.) Shatter also has positive circumstantial benefits - constructs have disadvantage on the save, and it does damage to nonmagical objects.

Aganazzar's does have one minor edge in that Dex saves are generally weaker for monsters than Con saves, but that's not nearly enough to salvage the comparison.

Although, I personally find myself taking Aganazzar's somewhat often, as I frequently find my caster characters to have strong elemental theming (most recently a character who used Earth, Wind, and Fire themed spells).

[Minty]

I used it in Baldur's Gate 2, if that counts.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I used it in Baldur's Gate 2, if that counts.

I seem to recall that it had a non-instantaneous duration in BG, such that you could cast it at one target, then walk in an arc around a group of enemies between the rounds, 'sweeping' the line of effect through the enemies, hitting them all in a kind of inverted cone. Maybe that was a bug due to the real-time movement/round-based damage, but I definitely found it very useful. Especially once your tanks start getting magic items that provide fire damage reductions... :smallamused:

[redwizard007]

I seem to recall that it had a non-instantaneous duration in BG, such that you could cast it at one target, then walk in an arc around a group of enemies between the rounds, 'sweeping' the line of effect through the enemies, hitting them all in a kind of inverted cone. Maybe that was a bug due to the real-time movement/round-based damage, but I definitely found it very useful. Especially once your tanks start getting magic items that provide fire damage reductions... :smallamused:

Oddly enough, I just started playing BG and hate this spell. My tanks keep trying to walk through the blast and get screwed up royally. Why hadn't I thought of walking my sorcerer around to flame thrower more baddys?

[kivzirrum]

I seem to recall that it had a non-instantaneous duration in BG, such that you could cast it at one target, then walk in an arc around a group of enemies between the rounds, 'sweeping' the line of effect through the enemies, hitting them all in a kind of inverted cone. Maybe that was a bug due to the real-time movement/round-based damage, but I definitely found it very useful. Especially once your tanks start getting magic items that provide fire damage reductions... :smallamused:

That's how I use it. It's extremely useful in the first Baldur's Gate if you keep your party away from the literal line of fire.

As for in 5e, none of my players use it, but I'm not sure why. The bard lives for Shatter, so maybe they just didn't need another damage dealing level 2 spell.

[NaughtyTiger]

i considered it relative to dragon's breath. but
3d6 vs 3d8,
15ft cone vs 30ft line
fire vs fire,cold,poison,lightning,acid
1 round vs 10 rounds.

[Laserlight]

i considered it relative to dragon's breath. but
3d6 vs 3d8,
15ft cone vs 30ft line
fire vs fire,cold,poison,lightning,acid
1 round vs 10 rounds.

And you can do Twinned Dragon's Breath on two of the party members who don't mind getting in close to the enemies, while the sorc who cast it stays back out of the way.
Or on a flying familiar for strafing runs.

[UrielAwakened]

It's bad.

Real bad.

[Citan]

Aganazzar's Scorcher is apparently a spell brought over from several past editions.

It deals pretty decent damage for a lvl 2 spell, yet I've never seen it discussed or suggested.

Have you ever seen anyone select it? Is so outclassed by higher level fire spells people prefer to wait? Or is there just too many other lvl 2 spells more worth it in comparison?
My vote goes for this. And the fact, as others said, that it is in a +1 book.

It really is not that bad. It can even be very good. The fact it's shaped as a line instead of a sphere is actually the main reason to use it.
Most people always see spells like Shatter and say "cool an AOE 10 feet radius I can hurt at least 4 people with it".

But how often do people actually manage to get such a tight shot? More importantly, when they do so, how often are friendlies involved?

Aganazzar's pales in potential count of targets compared to Fireball, but Fireball is admitedly an exception. Compared to Shatter though, it should be comparable in general, or better, in "how many enemies I can usually target with one cast" when, taking enemies position, you calculate where to put the center of a Shatter or the starting point of a Aganazzar's to hurt the highest number of creatures.

Because many "circular" AOE effects exists, enemies, at least the smart ones, would take care about keeping somewhere between 10 and 20 feet between them to dissuade opponents to use AOE spells. In those situations, Aganazzar's, exactly like Lightning Bolt, gives you something that can circumvent that safety.

The thing (or rather, big problem) is, with Aganazz being a spell, it's usually cast by a caster (duh). Casters, most of them at least, usually stand in the back. Which kinda negates the tactical utility of Aganazzar because it emanates from you.
So to use it efficiently you'd have to be already in the frontline at the start of your turn to have enough movement to position in a way that encases more than 1 enemy.
That's just too much hassle, and too much risk, for most casters, compared to using upcast Ice Knife / Spike Growth / upcast Earth Tremor / Heat Metal / Flaming Sphere / Shatter or even Scorching Ray worst case for spreaded targets.

On that point, how often do you see Lightning Bolt used? Unless it's a Storm Sorcerer or Tempest Cleric, I'd bet it's rarely, and mostly for the same reason (tbfair, also that usually those having access to it can learn Fireball ^^). :) And in spite of it having a much more respectable 100 feet length. Because in practice, while this length means you don't expose yourself as much, you will rarely get many more enemies taken (this is a great spell to have in dungeons for that reason though, great corridor cleaner).

There is also the simple truth that there are so many great 2nd level spells to choose, offensive or otherwise, for characters that, apart from Druid/Cleric, make choices "for life". Difficult to justify picking that over a Warding Bond, Misty Step/Mirror Image, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon, Pass WIthout Trace, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Healing Spirit etc...

On some (few) characters however, this can be a very good spell if you wish to mix martial and melee, those who are frontliner in essence, or have great mobility, or both. Namely Eldricht Knights / dedicated Arcane Tricksters, or maybe Monks deciding on a multiclass (too bad Light Cleric doesn't gets it) or some convoluted Warlock/Sorcerer based gish.

EDIT: forgot about Dragon's Breath. This one fills the same kind of niche, but is much more resource-efficient. Well, this doesn't let much usable space to the poor Aganazzar... XD

One simple change that would make this range from "not enough to be usually considered" to "pretty decent tool to have" would be...
- Make it behave like all Wall spells: line doesn't emanate from you but from a point in range.
- Allow you to shape it and curve it (so you can target an enemy while avoiding the friend between you and it without moving).
Both being changes alleviating or removing the main shortcoming of the spell (caster needing to risk his hide just to have a decent use of the spell).

[Corran]

I think it's the only fire spell with a line AoE. If that's true, then it is useful for fire themed characters.
If memory serves me right, I think it competed with hellish rebuke for my second level slots for a slightly gishy fire themed character I tried long ago in a 1shot. I had picked it, only cause I wanted to have a fire spell for each possible AoE category.

[ad_hoc]

I would compare it to Scorching Ray.

The advantage it has over that is to not have disadvantage in melee.

It has a similar advantage over Shatter too. When enemies are close allies are usually close too. And a character can run around an enemy to line up the line and not take an OA.

These sorts of spells are much better when enemies wisely walk past the armour suits to attack the weakly defended. In a game where all enemies are zombies it won't be very good.

[nickl_2000]

I think it's the only fire spell with a line AoE. If that's true, then it is useful for fire themed characters.
If memory serves me right, I think it competed with hellish rebuke for my second level slots for a slightly gishy fire themed character I tried long ago in a 1shot. I had picked it, only cause I wanted to have a fire spell for each possible AoE category.

Does Wall of Fire count as a line AoE fire spell?

[Corran]

Does Wall of Fire count as a line AoE fire spell?
Well, yes. But it's not a fair comparison IMO, as WoF takes up concentration (which was the reason I had avoided it when I played a fire themed character, as I wanted to use my concentration on other things). I really want to like wall of fire but I just can't.

[ad_hoc]

I think it's the only fire spell with a line AoE. If that's true, then it is useful for fire themed characters.
If memory serves me right, I think it competed with hellish rebuke for my second level slots for a slightly gishy fire themed character I tried long ago in a 1shot. I had picked it, only cause I wanted to have a fire spell for each possible AoE category.

Hellish Rebuke is highly underrated. Definitely HR > AS for a 2nd level spell.

On Warlocks HR drops off when they get 3rd level spells. It's a decent Magical Secret for Lore Bards as they can get many castings.

[Willie the Duck]

Does Wall of Fire count as a line AoE fire spell?

Your choice, it's not an official designation. Walls in general are more useful than line spells (or 'other line spells,' if you decide they are included). Walls last a time and thus control where your opponents can go -- and you can, but presumably you've taken that into account (unless you're AI controlled in Baldur's Gate, apparently). Walls also usually can be from any point A to point B within a certain range, while lines (/other lines) have to originate at the caster).

I like Aganazzar's Scorcher from an thematic perspective. From a gameplay perspective, getting more than two (or sometimes even two) opponents in a line, where you want to place my 'mage' at a point A that successfully catches them in said line, is just plain a harder proposition than finding opponents gathered in a X' radius circle*.
*it doesn't hurt that the people in my group who play artillery mages tend to pick evokers and sorcerers, so they can usually drop said spells in areas including their own allies.

[ImproperJustice]

Our GM loves having his NPC casters use it on us when we are bunched in a tight corridor........

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think it's the only fire spell with a line AoE. If that's true, then it is useful for fire themed characters.
If memory serves me right, I think it competed with hellish rebuke for my second level slots for a slightly gishy fire themed character I tried long ago in a 1shot. I had picked it, only cause I wanted to have a fire spell for each possible AoE category.

Exactly this.

My previous gaming group had a Fire Wizard, by which I mean a vhuman Evocation specialist with Elemental Adept (fire) as his starting bonus feat. He had ALL the fire spells, including Aganazzar's Scorcher. Sure, Shatter is better 'out of the box' but when you can re-roll 1's and ignore resistance, the fire spell looks slightly less awful.

And then there's the whole "I'm a Fire Wizard, not a Noise Wizard" thing.

Hmmm... "Noise Wizard." I kinda like that...

[Kane0]

Works great following up a web, you dont need to get as close as burning hands.

[nickl_2000]

Hmmm... "Noise Wizard." I kinda like that...

Can one be a pinball wizard?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Pinball_Wizard_Germany_PS.jpg/220px-Pinball_Wizard_Germany_PS.jpg

[JakOfAllTirades]

Can one be a pinball wizard?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Pinball_Wizard_Germany_PS.jpg/220px-Pinball_Wizard_Germany_PS.jpg

That needs to be a thread.

And yes I'd play one.

[Toofey]

So, not only is it lines it is potentially multiple lines (although at lower damage) it scales nicely for increased levels, and slightly OT but a big part of why Shatter is so OP in most games edging out spells like this is that it makes a REALLY LOUD NOISE that in many situations should be detrimental.

[Vorpalchicken]

Surprisingly, according to this research http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568982-Is-your-D-amp-D-character-rare-II-Off-brand-edition
it is one of the most popular 2nd level wizard spells with 25 percent of wizard's taking it.
It seems pretty lackluster to me.

[Pex]

The most frequently cited reason I see for people rating Aganazzar's poorly is that it is almost strictly worse than Shatter. It does identical damage to Shatter, but with a worse damage type (fire vs. thunder) and an inferior AoE shape (30 ft. line from self vs. 10 ft. radius sphere within 60 ft.) Shatter also has positive circumstantial benefits - constructs have disadvantage on the save, and it does damage to nonmagical objects.

Aganazzar's does have one minor edge in that Dex saves are generally weaker for monsters than Con saves, but that's not nearly enough to salvage the comparison.

Although, I personally find myself taking Aganazzar's somewhat often, as I frequently find my caster characters to have strong elemental theming (most recently a character who used Earth, Wind, and Fire themed spells).

It is good for a 2nd level damage spell for fire-based Dragon Sorcerers who are not thrilled with Scorching Ray because they add their CH modifier damage to one and only one of the rolls. With this spell all bad guys get the CH modifier damage. It's more aesthetically pleasing. It'll never be upcast though. If they're going to upcast they'd rather cast Fireball. It's also a nice replacement for Burning Hands for a better range and when you're ready for 1st level spells to be used only for Shield and Absorb Elements. It's a line as opposed to a cone, but the better range and not worrying about hitting party members is a fair trade off.

[furby076]

Exactly this.

My previous gaming group had a Fire Wizard, by which I mean a vhuman Evocation specialist with Elemental Adept (fire) as his starting bonus feat. He had ALL the fire spells, including Aganazzar's Scorcher. Sure, Shatter is better 'out of the box' but when you can re-roll 1's and ignore resistance, the fire spell looks slightly less awful.

And then there's the whole "I'm a Fire Wizard, not a Noise Wizard" thing.

Hmmm... "Noise Wizard." I kinda like that...

Aren't noise wizards aka bards?

[JakOfAllTirades]

Aren't noise wizards aka bards?

Yes, but that's only because there's no draconic sorcerer that gets extra thunder damage.

[Corran]

Yes, but that's only because there's no draconic sorcerer that gets extra thunder damage.
And for good reason. If they allowed for something like that, then Ace Idi Si would become more famous than Drizzt, and WotC would have none of that!