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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Dumb 3.5 wondrous item: The Scroll Fusion Tube



Malphegor
2018-09-14, 03:35 AM
The Scroll Fusion Tube:

Had this idea lately of making cheap knockoff spells by combining the effects and useages of 2 different spells to create a new effect. Not sure how gamebreaking it'd be to have in a game, I guess it'd depend on how the fused spell turns out.

This tube, made out of a brown paperlike substance (cardboard) will combine two or more spells you already know (on scrolls, inserted on both sides of it) to create a new spell, usually with brand new, perhaps useful but typically vastly weaker effects. As you already know the spells that compose this new spell, you merely need to glance at the new scroll to learn the spell you've made.
Craft Wondrous Items, 500gp

For example,

Burning Hands + Mage Hand= Illuminated Hand- a telekinetically animated hand of force now is on slight fire, emitting 5 feet of poor light for the duration of Mage Hand, acts as Mage Hand to all other purposes, except flammable objects can be set alight with the Hand in 1d4 rounds of contact.
(combining the light part of the fire spell with the floating telekinetic handiness of mage hand)

Charm Person + Prestidigitation= Conjure Fluoride Paste- a 1 foot cube of white paste will appear in your hand for 6 rounds, which if a small amount is brushed against your teeth with a stiff brush will give you a temporary +1 to social skill rolls for 1 hours, like Diplomacy
(combining the cleaning effects of prestidigitation with the social boost of charm person)



The rule I'm thinking for this kind of item is that the resulting fused spell is generally 'weaker' in most regards than its components, but would have its own utility niche that the component spells would be overkill for. Spell level would be equal to the highest spell used in the combination, so generally it'd probably be too high to prefer over regular spells unless you can really use some utility the fused spell has.

Altair_the_Vexed
2018-09-14, 04:13 AM
The Scroll Fusion Tube:

Had this idea lately of making cheap knockoff spells by combining the effects and useages of 2 different spells to create a new effect. Not sure how gamebreaking it'd be to have in a game, I guess it'd depend on how the fused spell turns out.

This tube, made out of a brown paperlike substance (cardboard) will combine two or more spells you already know (on scrolls, inserted on both sides of it) to create a new spell, usually with brand new, perhaps useful but typically vastly weaker effects. As you already know the spells that compose this new spell, you merely need to glance at the new scroll to learn the spell you've made.
Craft Wondrous Items, 500gp

For example,

Burning Hands + Mage Hand= Illuminated Hand- a telekinetically animated hand of force now is on slight fire, emitting 5 feet of poor light for the duration of Mage Hand, acts as Mage Hand to all other purposes, except flammable objects can be set alight with the Hand in 1d4 rounds of contact.
(combining the light part of the fire spell with the floating telekinetic handiness of mage hand)

Charm Person + Prestidigitation= Conjure Fluoride Paste- a 1 foot cube of white paste will appear in your hand for 6 rounds, which if a small amount is brushed against your teeth with a stiff brush will give you a temporary +1 to social skill rolls for 1 hours, like Diplomacy
(combining the cleaning effects of prestidigitation with the social boost of charm person)



The rule I'm thinking for this kind of item is that the resulting fused spell is generally 'weaker' in most regards than its components, but would have its own utility niche that the component spells would be overkill for. Spell level would be equal to the highest spell used in the combination, so generally it'd probably be too high to prefer over regular spells unless you can really use some utility the fused spell has.

Interesting idea - but as written, it's entirely down to GM judgement on how it would work. I think you need to come up with some rules for how the combinations can work, so that you avoid anyone using it to break the game - it's a cheap item to make, and with some cleverness, you could persuade a GM that your new combined spell is weak enough to be allowed, but then use it in a tricksy way.

I'd recommend, while setting the spell level as the higher of the two scrolls that are combined, you could also add a rule that the resulting spell must be no more powerful than the lower of the two spells, and if the two spells are equal level, then the new spell must be an equivalent power to a spell one level lower. For example: combining two 1st level spells gives you a 1st level spell, that is actually only of equivalent power to a cantrip.

I'd also recommend that you include in the item description a note that the item consumes the original scrolls, and that the new scroll creation requires a sacrifice of XP and GP as if you were creating the scroll yourself - or maybe some fraction of that cost, as the used-up scrolls could be considered a contribution to the creation costs.

Unavenger
2018-09-14, 04:59 AM
The two spells you've given as examples are so weak that they are essentially useless - a +1 to a specific type of skill check for an hour out of a 1st-level spell slot pales in comparison to, for example, a +10 to a specific type of skill check for 10 minutes/level plus other benefits (from disguise self). It can't even be used in a clever way to achieve something other than the intended effect. The illuminated hand is maybe a little better - at best, it's a way to set fire to things at range - but still not amazing. As for the item in general, what it actually does is too ill-defined to comment on specifically. What does Wall of Fire + Dimension Door give me - is it something similar to firestride exhalation, or a wall of fire which teleports around, or what? The item gives no way of actually determining, so it's just a licence for the DM to make things up... but she's the DM. She can already make things up.

jqavins
2018-09-14, 07:49 AM
As far as I see, it's a way to shortcut spell research, with the penalty that you get a less powerful spell than you would if you did the research the old fashioned way. Looking at it that way, it seems reasonable. So let's explore its possibilities from that angle.


The player proposes the new spell to be created and the scrolls to be sacrificed.
The level of the new spell, as already established, is the higher of the levels of the two spells combined.
The qualitative power of the new spell is as a typical spell at the lower of the two spells combined (or one less if they are equal) as The Vexed One suggested.

This might not be absolute. When there's a large difference in levels, the higher level scroll sacrificed might bring up the power of the result, so that combining a 1st level spell and a 6th level spell might give a new 6th level spell with the qualitative power of, not a cantrip, but a 1st or 2nd level spell.
I'm thinking there should be a formula, but I haven't worked it out yet. The DM considers the proposal, approving, modifying, or disapproving, in secret.
The player sacrifices the scrolls, and gets the new spell that s/he wanted, a slightly different spell, or a rude message or picture (because, why not?) as per the bullet above.

Other comments:

Instead of an anachronistic shipping tube, why not make it out of a scroll case?

A master work scroll case would be in line with most magic item creation. What about a wand version, where spells are cast into the item to create one charge of the combination?
What happens if scrolls of different spell types, e.g. arcane and divine, are placed in the tube together?

I'm picturing a combination of Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds that creates Healing Missile, giving Cure Minor Wounds level healing but at a distance. But who would be able to cast it?


Specific comments on Conjure Fluoride Paste:

A cubic foot of toothpaste would weigh about 80 pounds.
Fluoride is just about the only ingredient in typical toothpaste that would not contribute to a CHA bonus.

Altair_the_Vexed
2018-09-17, 05:57 AM
As far as I see, it's a way to shortcut spell research, with the penalty that you get a less powerful spell than you would if you did the research the old fashioned way. Looking at it that way, it seems reasonable. So let's explore its possibilities from that angle.


The player proposes the new spell to be created and the scrolls to be sacrificed.
The level of the new spell, as already established, is the higher of the levels of the two spells combined.
The qualitative power of the new spell is as a typical spell at the lower of the two spells combined (or one less if they are equal) as The Vexed One suggested.

This might not be absolute. When there's a large difference in levels, the higher level scroll sacrificed might bring up the power of the result, so that combining a 1st level spell and a 6th level spell might give a new 6th level spell with the qualitative power of, not a cantrip, but a 1st or 2nd level spell.
I'm thinking there should be a formula, but I haven't worked it out yet. The DM considers the proposal, approving, modifying, or disapproving, in secret.
The player sacrifices the scrolls, and gets the new spell that s/he wanted, a slightly different spell, or a rude message or picture (because, why not?) as per the bullet above.


How about this for a formula for the qualitative power level:


(L + L + H ) / 3
where L is the level of the lower spell, and H is the level of the higher spell

- that'll produce a spell power weighted toward the lower end, but not quite as harsh.

So if you have a 1st level spell and a 9th level spell, you get
(1 + 1 + 9) / 3
= 11 / 3
= 3.66
= 3 (rounding down, as usual)


Other comments:

Instead of an anachronistic shipping tube, why not make it out of a scroll case?
[LIST]
A master work scroll case would be in line with most magic item creation. What about a wand version, where spells are cast into the item to create one charge of the combination?
What happens if scrolls of different spell types, e.g. arcane and divine, are placed in the tube together?

I'm picturing a combination of Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds that creates Healing Missile, giving Cure Minor Wounds level healing but at a distance. But who would be able to cast it?
...

MM + CLW - remember Bards can cast CLW, so I'd rule that Healing Missile was castable by arcane casters.
The conditions in the OP's original description said that the scrolls are of spells you already know - so the new spell will be castable by you, at least.

jqavins
2018-09-17, 07:35 AM
How about this for a formula for the qualitative power level:
(L + L + H ) / 3
where L is the level of the lower spell, and H is the level of the higher spell

- that'll produce a spell power weighted toward the lower end, but not quite as harsh.When L=H, that'd produce no penalty, where the earlier proposal stated L-1 when L=H, which I'd like to preserve. My intention was to keep it harsh, just not quite so terrible so. My first thoughts were either (3L + H)/4 -1 or SQRT(L∙H) - 1, rounded (rather than the usual truncated). But I (still) haven't done the spreadsheet work I'd like to to "test" these formulae or others.


MM + CLW - remember Bards can cast CLW, so I'd rule that Healing Missile was castable by arcane casters.
The conditions in the OP's original description said that the scrolls are of spells you already know - so the new spell will be castable by you, at least.That's a good point. So if someone with, say, levels in both wizard and cleric were to do this, it would make a unique spell castable only by him/her or others who also have both classes. Which still doesn't answer whether it takes a cleric's or wizard's spell slot for that character, but I guess that's a minor detail.

Goaty14
2018-09-17, 08:52 AM
How about rules that vaguely describe how each school of magic interacts with being fused with another school, with one acting as the active school and another the passive? Or maybe you can mix & match between the two spells -- as the previously mentioned "Healing Missile" -- using one spell variables and the other's description?

I.e Combining an active scroll with a passive scroll, the passive scroll's school affects the active scroll as follows:
Abjuration: <I don't know>
Conjuration: Spell ignores SR.
Divination: Spell sees the immediate future, reducing the casting time by one step.
Evocation: Spell increases the range by one step (Personal -> Touch -> Close -> Medium -> Long)
Enchantment: Spell burrows itself into the target's consciousness, forcing a WILL save before the effect, or else the target rolls disadvantage on the active spell's save.
Illusion: Spell now creates a visual double, except the double only has a __+1/CL% chance of actually being real. Treat the spell as being twinned if real.
Necromancy: <I also don't know>
Transmutation: Spell alters the target's state, giving the target or a creature within 30ft of the target a bonus/penalty to AC equal to the spell level.

I.e #2: Combine a Fireball scroll (variable) and Cure Serious Wounds (description) to make a new scroll that tosses a ball of positive energy towards your allies, healing them (if healed by positive energy) 3d8+CL at a range of 400+40/CL. I think the price might have to be drastically increased with that method (maybe costs doubled?).

jqavins
2018-09-17, 03:47 PM
When L=H, that'd produce no penalty, where the earlier proposal stated L-1 when L=H, which I'd like to preserve. My intention was to keep it harsh, just not quite so terrible so. My first thoughts were either (3L + H)/4 -1 or SQRT(L∙H) - 1, rounded (rather than the usual truncated). But I (still) haven't done the spreadsheet work I'd like to to "test" these formulae or others.OK, so, I tested these formulae, and they stink. The basic problem is trying to have a single formula that includes both the L=H case that needs a flat -1 and the L≠H case which does not. I end up with a few spots where my formulae give results even worse than your first proposal, where I'm trying for something a little more generous, never less.

So here's what I've got:

H-1, if H=L
L + int((H-L)/3), if H≠L

Since the maximum value of H-L is 8, this comes out 3 levels better than your first proposal at best.

Now mind you, L + int((H+L)/3) is the same as int((H+2L)/3), which is exactly what you proposed second. So really, all I've done different from your second proposal is to put in the H=L special case.

So, you win. :smallsmile:

Mind's Eye
2019-02-08, 05:14 PM
I think that the effects should stack, after all, you're "spending" two scrolls to get one, more powerful scroll. A LOT of this should be up to the DM's discretion, but there should be more benefit to it then getting one, slightly weaker spell (albeit with creative potential) when they could use the other scrolls seperately.

noob
2019-02-08, 06:29 PM
I think that the effects should stack, after all, you're "spending" two scrolls to get one, more powerful scroll. A LOT of this should be up to the DM's discretion, but there should be more benefit to it then getting one, slightly weaker spell (albeit with creative potential) when they could use the other scrolls seperately.
I think it is also by fear of the players just being able to learn useful or powerful new spells.
If somehow you can get a tenth level spell by combining two ninth level spells then it means that the players could just start using higher than level 9 spells once they reach epic without using the epic spell creation rules.