[PF] Building the Beefiest Animal Companion

[lord pringle]

I’m planning on playing in a 20th level pathfinder game with decent optimization, and I was looking at the Mammoth Rider prestige class and its nice capstone. I was wondering, what is the best animal companion I can build with 20 levels and standard wealth by level?
I’d like to take a full ten levels of Mammoth Rider, but if there’s better options, I’ll take them. I’m willing to dump everything about my character in service of the companion, so if a choice would suck for me but rock for my Companion, I’m cool to take it.
All 1st party stuff is allowed, as is 3rd party and homebrew on a case by case basis, but I’d like to avoid using that if at all possible.
Thanks everyone!

[Zaq]

The beefiest animal companion is obviously a cow.

I’ll just show myself out.

[Jack_Simth]

... might be possible to get an Animal Companion in excess of your character level.

Animal Ally (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally/) has some requirements and is at character level -3, but includes the clause "If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources."
... but the animal companion from the feat grows with you. So if you go (whatever)-5, take Animal Ally at 5th, and then go Druid for 6th-20th, then you'd have:
15 Effective druid levels from being a Druid.
17 effective druid levels from the feat.
... making your companion that of a 32nd level Druid.

...

Am I missing anything?

Also, check out This Page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/). Also pay attention to This feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/share-feature-animal-companion-feat/)

Edit: And This one (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-companion/). Note that your AC does NOT have a natural attack limit, unlike an Eidolon. There's a LOT of useful evolutions on the 1 point list (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons/#TOC-1-Point-Evolutions). The limbs evolution is a 2-pointer... but a Druid-20 could have like ten instances of Evolved Companion(Tentacle) ...

Edit 2: Archetypes... This one (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/feytouched-companion-archetype/) gives your companion some DR. Draconic (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/draconic-companion-archetype/) would give it a breath weapon a few times per day (and if you've got a companion as a Druid-32... well, it's got like 20+ hit dice).

[grarrrg]

... but the animal companion from the feat grows with you. So if you go (whatever)-5, take Animal Ally at 5th, and then go Druid for 6th-20th, then you'd have:
15 Effective druid levels from being a Druid.
17 effective druid levels from the feat.
... making your companion that of a 32nd level Druid.

...

Am I missing anything?

(ignoring 'non-intended interactions because the designers don't think through everything they write', and 'technically the Animal Companion table stops at level 20, so most/every level after that does nothing')

Animal Ally would only fully stack with a Class-companion if you (can) make the same animal selection for both (e.g. "horse" and "horse"), otherwise you'd get two separate lesser companions.
Not 100% sure what the intended interaction with Mammoth Rider is though, given that Mammoth semi-overrides your normal companion.


There are a few classes/archetypes that get a companion/mount after level 1, but still count all levels for progress.
Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo-cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) Cavalier is one. The Mount kicks in at level 5 though, so to fully optimize this, you'd need to retrain a feat at level 4 into Animal Ally.

Less useful is the Huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/huntmaster-human) feat. It gives a straight up +1 "druid" level (not capped to Character level), but only to a VERY limited list of animals. Horse is the only one on the Mammoth list, but is fairly subpar if you want face smash.
You could probably argue that "cat" is the same as "cat (big)" though (Animal Ally only gives "cat (small)", but again, Ally + Mammoth = ??).

[upho]

I’m planning on playing in a 20th level pathfinder game with decent optimization, and I was looking at the Mammoth Rider prestige class and its nice capstone. I was wondering, what is the best animal companion I can build with 20 levels and standard wealth by level?
I’d like to take a full ten levels of Mammoth Rider, but if there’s better options, I’ll take them. I’m willing to dump everything about my character in service of the companion, so if a choice would suck for me but rock for my Companion, I’m cool to take it.
All 1st party stuff is allowed, as is 3rd party and homebrew on a case by case basis, but I’d like to avoid using that if at all possible.
Thanks everyone!This depends on what you think it is your AC is supposed to do. Single target melee damage? Usually means charging Warcat + pumped Str and size + rage + additional/pimped out primary natural attacks (eagle shaman tattoo, fleshwarped scorpion's tail, helm of the mammoth lord, tusk blades, etc.) + strong jaw + whatever swift action attack possible (like Cornugon Smash + Hurtful, or bull rush/overrun boosts + Spiked Destroyer).

Ranged damage? Probably any high-Dex Buraq (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/buraq) AC able to grasp items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic-items/#table-magic-item-slots-for-animals) with Hand Cannons (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/veil-list-and-descriptions#toc49) veil (like say a Quetzalcoatlus).

Melee control? Probably anything building off of elasmotherium powerful charge + Minotaur's Charge + Evolved Companion (pounce + lots of extra natural attack items (see above) or reach) + Greater Bull Rush + Combat Reflexes + Paired Opportunists (preferably via horsemaster's saddle or 3 levels of Hunter or Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor). You (riding the AC) would add say Wheeling Charge + savage dirty trick + greater ferocious beast + Fox Trickery/Kitsune Vengeance + Dirty Trick Master + boosted reach. What you end up with is an insane non-stop AoO party with potentially several enemies being dazed and thus utterly shut down and taken out of the fight each round. Not recommended even without a mount if you don't want to break your game (this is typically a lot more effective than any build maximizing melee damage can ever hope to be). You could also have some fun with say a Gargantuan spinosaurus with Snatch, grapple feats, raging grappler and a boosted reach...

And speaking of, if by "beefiest" you mean "the most muscle" rather than "the most bovine meat" (that would be a War Bull, btw), then AFAIK it's a Gargantuan (animal growth) spinosaurus best buddy of a half-orc Bloodrager Primalist Bloodrider 11/Mammoth Rider 9 with the shaman enhancement ART and ferocious mount, Amplified Rage, horsemaster's saddle and all the ususal Str boost items. That's a Str score of at the very least 60 EDIT: no, that should say "at the very least 72". /EDIT Which is of course total overkill and definitely not worth the investments, but yeah, undeniably pretty darn beefy...


(ignoring 'non-intended interactions because the designers don't think through everything they write', and 'technically the Animal Companion table stops at level 20, so most/every level after that does nothing')Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that both RAI and RAW no AC can progress beyond EDL 20, and for example Animal Ally can and probably should be interpreted as if not counting any class levels already granting EDLs. Otherwise, you can easily end up with bonkers stuff such as elf nature Oracle 18/Sorcerer Wildblooded (Sylvan) 2 + Animal Ally (taken before choosing the Bonded Mount revelation) + Robe of Arcane Heritage = EDL 41... :smalleek:


Animal Ally would only fully stack with a Class-companion if you (can) make the same animal selection for both (e.g. "horse" and "horse"), otherwise you'd get two separate lesser companions.Do you have a link to this rule? Seems odd since Animal Ally explicitly says "the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources". And AFAIK the default general rule is "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics." anyways, and there's only one very specific exception to that in the entire game, namely Cavalier mounts (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn).

Otherwise, per RAW for example a Hunter 1/Pally 5 could certainly have any druid AC large enough to ride at full EDL (even including primates such as the ape and the (excellent) devil monkey).


Not 100% sure what the intended interaction with Mammoth Rider is though, given that Mammoth semi-overrides your normal companion.RAW, I think it clearly says you can replace any AC for one of those listed in the steed feature, and thus you can also choose to keep the one you already had. So yeah, Gargantuan leech (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/#TOC-Leech-Giant), anyone? Or if you found that a bit too slow and slimy for your tastes, how 'bout a fighter jet Gargantuan falcon?

RAI, who knows? But I think it's also worth keeping in mind that most of the ACs you'd want to grow big and strong are already on the Mammoth Rider's list anyways, so it's highly unlikely you'll increase any potential imbalance risks notably by having another mount, however cheesy certain combos may sound/look at first glance. But of course, many crazy combos may very well not jam with your game's general theme/flavor, or your GM's view of "PF verisimilitude"...

Oh, and speaking of Mammoth Rider, if you're charging stuff, don't forget the mammoth hides (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/mammoth-hide/) for you and your mount, and of course a mammoth lance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/mammoth-lance/) for you! And remember the latest and likely final mounted charge rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ru6)!

[Calthropstu]

The beefiest animal companion is obviously a cow.

I’ll just show myself out.

Urgh, you beat me to it.

[grarrrg]

Do you have a link to this rule?...there's only one very specific exception to that in the entire game, namely Cavalier mounts (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn).

I read that FAQ as applying to any 'fixed list' Companion mix-n-matches.
Part of the problem is the baseline companion rules were written right away, and then never updated properly to account for all the random feats/features/abilities/archetypes/etc... that mess with them.



RAW, I think it clearly says you [I]can replace any AC for one of those listed in the steed feature

Most every other 'limited list' Companions use "can" wording (Ranger, Cavalier, various archetypes), and those are 'mandatory can's, only being excepted by GM ruling. So I'd say the "can" in Mammoth Rider is a mandatory one as well, you must pick an animal off their list, and your old one will be replaced.

[VeesMcGees]

Okay, not on topic, but I thought I'd reply to this recent thread rather than start my own. I my mount is huge size and I'm only normal size, can I effectively use melee combat while mounted or will I need to be a ranged fighter?

[upho]

I read that FAQ as applying to any 'fixed list' Companion mix-n-matches.(Somehow missed this, but I'll reply now just in case it may be of help.) You may be right in regards to the intent here, but I think it's worth noting that Paizo has repeatedly stated that FAQ entries are highly specific to the question being asked. That is, they should never be taken out of context and be applied as more general rules to similar cases unless they clearly say so. And in this FAQ, both the initial response and every mentioned example is very explicitly tied to the Cavalier. IOW, RAW there's nothing there to suggest this applies to anything other than Cavalier mounts.

And if it matters, IIRC there are a few threads on the Paizo boards discussing the issue of the FAQ not clarifying whether the current RAW EDL stacking was intended for all of the many other ways in which you may gain a similar limited list of AC choices.


Part of the problem is the baseline companion rules were written right away, and then never updated properly to account for all the random feats/features/abilities/archetypes/etc... that mess with them.
[insert mini-rant of Paizo "this would be a cool thing" and then never bothering to fully fleshing out the rules implications]I agree . However, judging from the discussions in Paizo threads leading up to the FAQ, in this particular case it very much appears that what has been bugging people is specifically the Cavalier, apparently mainly because the class' native mounted damage boosts and full BAB are seen as OP with mounts that actually remain at least somewhat viable combatants rather than just "combat taxis" also in mid and high levels.

Outside of those concerns, the classes/archetypes which do gain access to the full list of Druid ACs can often also access all the stronger feats/features/abilities/archetypes/etc. This is true even for some full bab archetypes potentially even more damage focused and far more versatile in combat than the Cavalier, such as the Mad Dog Barbarian. Heck, RAW Cavalier mounts cannot even access the Charger AC archetype (which the author said in a forum post was of course a mistake), and only 2 (Precocious and Totem Guide) of the 16 other ones in the game!


Most every other 'limited list' Companions use "can" wording (Ranger, Cavalier, various archetypes), and those are 'mandatory can's, only being excepted by GM ruling. So I'd say the "can" in Mammoth Rider is a mandatory one as well, you [I]must pick an animal off their list, and your old one will be replaced.Yes, other limited lists use a similar language, but I believe the implication and meaning is rather different in the context of the Mammoth Rider, since it exclusively applies to a PC who already has a companion/mount. That said, I still think especially the Mammoth Rider PrC is very much in "ask your GM"-territory anyways, perhaps especially because the size increase may actually make your mount near useless in certain games.


Okay, not on topic, but I thought I'd reply to this recent thread rather than start my own. I my mount is huge size and I'm only normal size, can I effectively use melee combat while mounted or will I need to be a ranged fighter?You can use melee as Medium sized while riding a mount larger than Large (see for example mentioned Mammoth Rider (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mammoth-rider/)). You're still treated as if occupying all the squares your mount occupies, even should you for example ride a Gargantuan mount (which is fully possible to obtain). The only limitation on mount size is that it cannot be smaller than you, and must be larger unless you have the Undersized Mount Feat.