Options for a Gish PrC?

[Palanan]

I’m looking for a prestige class that could be added to a martial base to provide some gish functionality. I’d like this to involve arcane casting, but beyond that nothing is set in stone. I’ve been through grarrrg’s mini-list of prestige classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12613038&postcount=2), which is a great resource, but none of the listed options really speaks to me.

I’m aware of the magus, but in this case that’s not the direction I want to go. I’m open to all official Paizo publications, and I’m open to suggestions for both a primary class and a PrC.

[Kurald Galain]

It may help if you explain why Grarg's options and the Magus don't appeal to you, and what exactly you're looking for in a gish that isn't covered by Grag's options and the Magus...

[Psyren]

In addition to what Kurald said, does it have to be spellcasting specifically, or are you open to just adding magic to your base class? Also, what base class is it? Also, does it have to be Paizo 1st party, or are 3rd-party/3.5 material allowed?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
...does it have to be spellcasting specifically, or are you open to just adding magic to your base class? Also, what base class is it? Also, does it have to be Paizo 1st party, or are 3rd-party/3.5 material allowed?

I'd like it to be spellcasting specifically, and my preference is first-party Paizo material, although I'll consider 3.5 options.

As for the base class, the fact is that I haven't decided yet. I don't want to specify one class if there's another class/PrC combo that works really well. My general concept is a medium-armored melee combatant who brings a little spellcasting to the fight, but beyond that I'm open to suggestions.

[Peat]

Honestly, for your concept, I think a Gish in a can class would work better. What the PrC brings to the table ahead of that is better spellcasting (late game at least). If you only want a little spellcasting, kinda besides the point.

Also the 3.5 PrCs are broadly speaking just better. If you're allowed Abjurant Champion and Spellsword, that makes life a lot easier.

However, PF...

For what you've said, a combination of Hellknight for offsetting ASF and Eldritch Knight for progressing BAB/CL is probably the way to go. Other worthwhile options include the Evangelist and Dawnflower Anchorite.

[Kurald Galain]

My general concept is a medium-armored melee combatant who brings a little spellcasting to the fight, but beyond that I'm open to suggestions.

So a Magus, then :smallbiggrin:

Alternatively, skald or warpriest or bloodrager or inquisitor. Incidentally all of these have distinct spell lists.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peat
Also the 3.5 PrCs are broadly speaking just better. If you're allowed Abjurant Champion and Spellsword, that makes life a lot easier.

I really like Abjurant Champion, especially the fact that it only requires a single level of wizard to enter. That fits perfectly with what I have in mind.

Spellsword is very eh, takes too long to enter for much too little benefit.


Originally Posted by Peat
For what you've said, a combination of Hellknight for offsetting ASF and Eldritch Knight for progressing BAB/CL is probably the way to go.

The HK Signifier has some strong features, although like Spellsword entry is a little more involved. Eldritch Knight doesn’t seem to have much beyond full BAB that the Signifier doesn’t already offer.

Something that combines the ease of entry of Abjurant Champion with the best features of the Signifier would be ideal. If nothing like that exists, I may have to kludge it up.


Originally Posted by Peat
Other worthwhile options include the Evangelist and Dawnflower Anchorite.

I appreciate the mention, and these do look interesting, but for this concept I’m staying with arcane casting.

[Peat]

I really like Abjurant Champion, especially the fact that it only requires a single level of wizard to enter. That fits perfectly with what I have in mind.

Spellsword is very eh, takes too long to enter for much too little benefit.



The HK Signifier has some strong features, although like Spellsword entry is a little more involved. Eldritch Knight doesn’t seem to have much beyond full BAB that the Signifier doesn’t already offer.

Something that combines the ease of entry of Abjurant Champion with the best features of the Signifier would be ideal. If nothing like that exists, I may have to kludge it up.



I appreciate the mention, and these do look interesting, but for this concept I’m staying with arcane casting.

I don't know how high a BAB you want for this concept, or to what level you're taking it to, but offering full BAB and CLs is a very rare proposition (particularly in PF) and whatever PrC you pick as your main one, you're still going to have some levels that are best filled with those classes in a lvl20 build. That's where EK and Spellsword (as a 1 level dip) shine.

Also, Evangelist and Dawnflower Anchorite both work with Arcane spellcasting classes. Evangelist in particular is good as you can enter it as a Fighter 4/Wizard 1 and that's probably your earliest easiest PrC entrance.

But, in this case... I'm guessing Abjurant Champion then Hellknight would work best for you, or a combination cludge if the GM will work it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peat
Also, Evangelist and Dawnflower Anchorite both work with Arcane spellcasting classes.

I managed to miss that, thanks. Still a little too divine for this particular concept, although Fighter 4/Wizard 1 is certainly tempting.


Originally Posted by Peat
I'm guessing Abjurant Champion then Hellknight would work best for you, or a combination cludge if the GM will work it.

A combined version of those two would be just about ideal. How would you work that? Naturally the full BAB and casting progression would be fine for my purposes. How would you fit in the rest of their features?

[AnonymousPepper]

I managed to miss that, thanks. Still a little too divine for this particular concept, although Fighter 4/Wizard 1 is certainly tempting.



A combined version of those two would be just about ideal. How would you work that? Naturally the full BAB and casting progression would be fine for my purposes. How would you fit in the rest of their features?

Full BAB *and* full casting progression is a class feature in and of itself.

[Palanan]

So maybe the better question is, what would be a good merger of the Abjurant Champion and HK Signifier?

Full casting progress would be my preference, although I don't mind reduced BAB. About the only thing I really want from the Signifier is the armor expertise and training. Given this, what features from the Abjurant Champion could be included without going overboard?

[AnonymousPepper]

So maybe the better question is, what would be a good merger of the Abjurant Champion and HK Signifier?

Full casting progress would be my preference, although I don't mind reduced BAB. About the only thing I really want from the Signifier is the armor expertise and training. Given this, what features from the Abjurant Champion could be included without going overboard?

Here's the thing - most of the abilities in Hellknight Signifier that *aren't* what you mentioned are more or less fluff with relatively little actual game impact, with the exception of the Assiduous Gaze and kiiiiinda the "capstone."

None of that offsets that you're combining a full BAB/full casting prestige class with decent class features with a second full BAB/full casting prestige class with some of the best class features in d20. Nearly all of the crunch of the latter is great, and just about any of it on that sort of chassis would be absolutely silly.

I would let a player combine them both as one 10-level class, gaining AbjChamp abilities every even level (so 2, 4, 8, and 10), if and only if they dropped two (1 and 6), three (1, 4, 7), or maybe even four (1, 2, 6, 7) casting levels and went down to 3/4 BAB. The combination is just that good.

That being said, may I point out that just about the only bit of fluff that Abjurant Champion has specifically contradicts your whole concept? Quoting in part the text for Abjurant Armor:


Abjurant champions rely on shield and similar spells instead of actual armor.

[Peat]

So maybe the better question is, what would be a good merger of the Abjurant Champion and HK Signifier?

Full casting progress would be my preference, although I don't mind reduced BAB. About the only thing I really want from the Signifier is the armor expertise and training. Given this, what features from the Abjurant Champion could be included without going overboard?

With the fairly significant caveats that I am no homebrew expert and don't know your group, you're probably best using the HK's chassis (although really, I doubt the AC's one would make much difference), reqs of BAB4, 1st level arcane spells, and the Arcane Armour Training feat, 2+int skills and weak fort/weak ref/strong will, and then for level abilities, any level where you don't like the HK ability, sub it AC abilities by levels.

The only thing that gives me slight pause for that is at some tables, once you've got a +9 Shield spell on top of your medium armour, you might be too tanky for comfort. But talk that other with your GM.

[Azoth]

If you can use the Mage Guild Rules from Inner Sea Magic you can get away with Exemplar Brawler1/Weapon Master Fighter4/Wizard2/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight10. Final BAB 19 Casts as a Wizard 16. Spend two feats for Prestigious Spellcaster and Favored Prestige Class, and you end up with BAB19 and Wizard 17 casting.

Costs you five feats:
Favored Prestige Class
Prestigious Spellcaster
Point Blank Shot *prereq*
Precise Shot *prereq*
Weapon Focus *prereq*

Cheapest Mage Guild is Magaambya with a 50gp entrance fee and 100gp/level average.

Personally if using the above build I would go Half Elf and spend a feat on Emergency Attunement to be able to abuse Paragon Surge. Nothing like being able to grab any 3 feats you need when you need them. Bonus points if you go Transmuter Wizard and buy a pair of Annihilation Spectacles.