What's up with Pathfinder's Transmutation school?

[SangoProduction]

I liked 5e's idea of making sorcerers the like masters of very few spells, but can do a lot with them on the fly. So I was going to see what Pathfinder's Sorcerer had to offer. Not much. It had bloodlines which are cool, if very hit-and-miss like to Solar one. Saw the Shapechanger bloodline. Interesting. Focused on Transmutation, as you'd expect.

Let's see what's in Transmuta....Huh...Jolt. Well, I guess you can change the distribution of electrons sure. Message....um...I mean, I guess you could make a line of air, from you to your target, denser and carry sound better. I guess. Mage Hand. What......???? I can't even BS that. I don't get it. Does it grow wings? If it were necromancy, at least you could say you attached a poltergeist to it. Maybe they added a new function to Transmutation school in Pathfinder. *looks it up* Hmm. Guess not.

Before I even get out of the cantrips, I have to ask, are the rest of Pathfinder's spell allocations quite as....special?

[Lucas Yew]

As far as I know, in the d20 rules tte two schools of Conjuration and Transmutation were always OP, mainly for this absurd diversity.

If the Wizard ever split up into 8 pure specialistsfor each school, those two will always function well even up to the higher levels

[Bohandas]

I guess. Mage Hand. What......???? I can't even BS that. I don't get it. Does it grow wings? If it were necromancy, at least you could say you attached a poltergeist to it. Maybe they added a new function to Transmutation school in Pathfinder. *looks it up* Hmm. Guess not.

It changes position. But does so without bypassing the intervening space (and thus isn't conjuration)

[BWR]

Mage Hand is a form of telekinesis, which has always been part of Alteration/Transmutation.

[Fizban]

As noted, Conjuration and Transmutation have always been the big two. Thing is, when it comes to magic you can basically make up a reason for why any spell is anything. But since a lot of people think of Evocation- the creation and manipulation of energy, as nothing but damage (and that it should be nothing but damage), tons of things that could be Evocation are dumped into the other two. Transmutation is the broadest possible descriptor since there are already examples of it creating things out of nothing and effectively creating energy, so basically anything that isn't direct damage or summoning is most likely to end up dumped in Transmutation.

Multiply that by a bunch of books by a bunch of authors who don't actually care about spell school balance and ta da.

[OgresAreCute]

As noted, Conjuration and Transmutation have always been the big two. Thing is, when it comes to magic you can basically make up a reason for why any spell is anything. But since a lot of people think of Evocation- the creation and manipulation of energy, as nothing but damage (and that it should be nothing but damage), tons of things that could be Evocation are dumped into the other two. Transmutation is the broadest possible descriptor since there are already examples of it creating things out of nothing and effectively creating energy, so basically anything that isn't direct damage or summoning is most likely to end up dumped in Transmutation.

Multiply that by a bunch of books by a bunch of authors who don't actually care about spell school balance and ta da.

The split between evocation and conjuration has always been weird to me. Fog Cloud is conjuration (creation) while Darkness is evocation. I'd say you could easily conjure some shadow goop from the plane of shadow/darkness if you wanted. Evocation is also described as creating something out of nothing, but uhh, what's conjuration (creation) then? Even stranger, cure effects are conjuration spells. Do you conjure chunks of meat into the wounds of your friends? In 5e healing spells are turned into evocation, which I think is a lot more appropriate.

[Kurald Galain]

Before I even get out of the cantrips, I have to ask, are the rest of Pathfinder's spell allocations quite as....special?
You'll have to blame TSR for this one.

All the way back in Second Edition AD&D, school allocations were rather haphazard, and the big winner was transmutation (then called "alteration") because you can make a case for about 75% of all spells that "it changes something". 3E mostly retains this classification. Several were fixed by WOTC for 3.5, and several others were fixed by Paizo, but some of them still made it through unchanged.

For instance, Teleport used to be Transmutation in 2E and 3E, and was moved to Conjuration for 3.5 and PF.
Jolt is clearly a "lite" version of Shocking Grasp, and SG was also Transmutation in 2E and 3E, moved to Evocation for 3.5 and PF. Now Jolt is from a blog post, not a major book; whoever wrote that blog probably forgot about this switch.
Message has also always been Transmutation, and frankly it's hard to make a clear case for it anywhere else. Incidentally, this is also the case in 5E.
Telekinesis effects have always been part of Transmutation, and this hasn't changed. This includes Mage Hand.

[Eldariel]

The split between evocation and conjuration has always been weird to me. Fog Cloud is conjuration (creation) while Darkness is evocation. I'd say you could easily conjure some shadow goop from the plane of shadow/darkness if you wanted. Evocation is also described as creating something out of nothing, but uhh, what's conjuration (creation) then? Even stranger, cure effects are conjuration spells. Do you conjure chunks of meat into the wounds of your friends? In 5e healing spells are turned into evocation, which I think is a lot more appropriate.

Originally Healing was Necromancy, which is really the only way it makes sense. The counterhalf to Inflicts (inverted Inflicts, actually). Necromancy is supposed to be about manipulation of the power of LIFE and death, i.e. positive and negative energy so while it's a kind of a weird misnomer, Cure effects certainly belong there as well as anything dealing with positive or negative energy. Evocation is then the elemental effects (Teleportation fits there and should be there though as well as Celerity-type effects since Contingency is already there) and Conjuration matter. And transmutation manipulation of matter, while energy falls under the other schools.

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if banning conjuration and transmutation spells would kick some of the tier 1 casters down to tier 2? Especially if you also banned the shadow spells and any other sells (wish, etc.) that duplicated conjuration/transmutation spells?

[Eldariel]

I wonder if banning conjuration and transmutation spells would kick some of the tier 1 casters down to tier 2? Especially if you also banned the shadow spells and any other sells (wish, etc.) that duplicated conjuration/transmutation spells?

You'd still have Animate Dead and Simulacrum. Shadow Walk and stuff too. Magic Jar et al as well. And Contingency, Charms, Dispels, etc. If you also banned Illusion, maybe. But Necromancy is still a huge powerhouse and the other schools are no slouches either.

[dascarletm]

The only real option is to ban ALL schools.

[Particle_Man]

I think if you only allow evocation, then you are ok. I mean, wasn't the original 3rd edition assumption (before tiers showed the flaws in that assumption) that the party would consist of a fighter, a rogue, a heal-bot and a blaster mage?

[Bohandas]

Message has also always been Transmutation, and frankly it's hard to make a clear case for it anywhere else. Incidentally, this is also the case in 5E.

One could make a case for it in divination (relays information), illusion (manipulates sound), or conjuration (relocates sound)

[Chromascope3D]

Originally Healing was Necromancy, which is really the only way it makes sense. The counterhalf to Inflicts (inverted Inflicts, actually). Necromancy is supposed to be about manipulation of the power of LIFE and death, i.e. positive and negative energy so while it's a kind of a weird misnomer, Cure effects certainly belong there as well as anything dealing with positive or negative energy. Evocation is then the elemental effects (Teleportation fits there and should be there though as well as Celerity-type effects since Contingency is already there) and Conjuration matter. And transmutation manipulation of matter, while energy falls under the other schools.

Honestly, I could see the Cure/Inflict lines being moved to evocation, since they respectively have to deal with manipulating positive/negative energy. You could probably make the case for telekinetic effects as well, since [Force] effects generally also fall under evocation. You mean to tell me that I can summon a giant, solid hand that can grasp and move people, but I have to train in an entirely different school to move an object otherwise?

[Eldariel]

Honestly, I could see the Cure/Inflict lines being moved to evocation, since they respectively have to deal with manipulating positive/negative energy. You could probably make the case for telekinetic effects as well, since [Force] effects generally also fall under evocation. You mean to tell me that I can summon a giant, solid hand that can grasp and move people, but I have to train in an entirely different school to move an object otherwise?

You kinda remove Necromancy from the game if you do that though since its whole shtick is negative and positive energy manipulation. If you moved those to Evocation, stuff like Animate Dead should be moved as well since it's basically just pumping a body full of negative energy, as well as all the Necromancy rays and company. Telekinesis, I certainly do I agree.

[RedWarlock]

Honestly, I could see the Cure/Inflict lines being moved to evocation, since they respectively have to deal with manipulating positive/negative energy. You could probably make the case for telekinetic effects as well, since [Force] effects generally also fall under evocation. You mean to tell me that I can summon a giant, solid hand that can grasp and move people, but I have to train in an entirely different school to move an object otherwise?


You kinda remove Necromancy from the game if you do that though since its whole shtick is negative and positive energy manipulation. If you moved those to Evocation, stuff like Animate Dead should be moved as well since it's basically just pumping a body full of negative energy, as well as all the Necromancy rays and company. Telekinesis, I certainly do I agree.

Yeah, I’ve done that before. My homebrew includes a pretty extensive re-typing and re-divisioning of the schools, as well as a more exacting use of multi-school spells. Necromancy is dropped as a school, Transmutation is ONLY non-living changes, Polymorph is a separate school for the living ones, Telepathy is a school, and I forget offhand if I used a single school for Vitalism (covering healing/infliction together) or used dual school, Restoration and.. something. I’d have to check my notes for what name I used.