Under-powered Mystic Theurge

[SLOTHRPG95]

So, obviously the best way to make the weakest mystic theurge is probably something like a 12 Int, 12 Wis caster who still sinks good levels after bad bumping caster level and not getting much else. But, what's the weakest Mystic Theurge build that's not purposefully gimping itself? Something that someone might play as a challenge to themselves, as a way to get a decent amount of magic without risking overshadowing anyone. Off the top of my head, I can think of Adept 6/Bard 4/Mystic Theurge 10. That's all your levels sunk into barely being able to cast 5th-level spells from two different classes. I'm interested in seeing if this can be made even lower-op, esp. what non-core classes could add to the mix.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Adept/ magewright/ mystic theurge is probably bottom of the barrel.

Well... I suppose you could swing something weird like ranger/ assassin/ mystic theurge.

[Arael666]

if Adept/ magewright/ mystic theurge doesn't fall into "actively gimping yourself" I don't know what else does... I'm pretty sure Adept/Bard also fall in that category, I mean, the MT is intended to be used on full casters, it's only class feature is dual casting adcancement, chosing base classes that usually get to use other class features along with it's casting (like the bard) or NPC classes that should not be being played in the first place IS gimping yourself.

I really think the original designer intent behind the class is already pretty weak, think about it. The "original" lvl 20 MT would be Wizard 5/Cleric 5/ MT 10, after getting into the prestige at lvl 7, he would spend his whole career 3 spell levels behind any other full caster, and only one spell lvel ahead a full bard or magewright. When he finally reaches lvl 20 his capstone is ... acess to arcane and divine lvl 7 spells HURRAY!

All that and we didn't even factor the obvious MADness, the obligatory spenditure of two feats to not be 3 CL behind on each class and the fact the by having wizard casting you can't even use the armor and shield proficiencies you get from multiclassing with cleric.

Well, that was longer than I originally intended for it to be... but the bottomline is that MT is already very bad, you don't need to add insult to injury

Edit: one way you could do this is by going favored soul/wizard, you get more class feature that you will not be able to use and you're adding another stat to your MADness

[Kish]

Druid/Battle Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge is my answer. Two unconnected caster stats, little benefit from the improved BAB and hit dice, weak shapeshifting ability that never improves, a weak animal companion that never improves. Going Mystic Theurge without having full casters on both sides would fit my definition of "purposefully gimping yourself," even if neither of them is an NPC class; having Adept or Magewright would count as really purposefully gimping yourself.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Adept/ magewright/ mystic theurge is probably bottom of the barrel.

Well... I suppose you could swing something weird like ranger/ assassin/ mystic theurge.

Yeah, I thought about a half-caster plus a different half-caster PrC, but I figured that (for my purposes), taking 10 levels in MT when one of your classes' casting ability only goes up 10 levels as self-gimping. If there were some way to get 2nd-level spells early, I thought Ranger/Hexblade/MT would fit the bill, but as it is you only get 4 levels of MT, which doesn't really seem in the spirit of things.

Also, yeah, the magewright! I keep on forgetting that exists. I think that fits the bill better than Bard.

[Vertharrad]

Druid/Battle Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge is my answer. Two unconnected caster stats, little benefit from the improved BAB and hit dice, weak shapeshifting ability that never improves, a weak animal companion that never improves. Going Mystic Theurge without having full casters on both sides would fit my definition of "purposefully gimping yourself," even if neither of them is an NPC class; having Adept or Magewright would count as really purposefully gimping yourself.

You do know that Arcane Heirophant exists right? It'll alleviate some of the pain...

[Kish]

You do know that Arcane Heirophant exists right? It'll alleviate some of the pain...
You don't seem to have read what the thread's looking for.

[ericgrau]

So, obviously the best way to make the weakest mystic theurge is probably something like a 12 Int, 12 Wis caster who still sinks good levels after bad bumping caster level and not getting much else. But, what's the weakest Mystic Theurge build that's not purposefully gimping itself? Something that someone might play as a challenge to themselves, as a way to get a decent amount of magic without risking overshadowing anyone. Off the top of my head, I can think of Adept 6/Bard 4/Mystic Theurge 10. That's all your levels sunk into barely being able to cast 5th-level spells from two different classes. I'm interested in seeing if this can be made even lower-op, esp. what non-core classes could add to the mix.

Using NPC classes also seems like intentionally gimping yourself. If your goal is to not overshadow others while supplying magic to the party, I'd look for ways to play support. Mystic theurges are great magic item crafters due to they're wide spell selection. Wizard / cleric or wizard / druid is good for this. I think wizard / druid has slightly better spell selection but there are domains with good crafting spells so that's something to consider based on party makeup. You might also do wizard / druid / MT / divine crusader and add in the domain that way at the expense of high level wizard / druid casting. If you can, I'd even take a level hit from crafting experience loss. But it's actually hard to lose much xp without tons of downtime. And remember when you are behind a level you get extra xp from fights to catch up.

If your goal is to provide your party's magical needs without outshining, then having a large number and a variety of low level spells is great for spamming hour/level buffs and utility spells. Pick up lesser rods of extend spell and pearls of power for buffs and tons of level 1 and 2 utility scrolls from both classes. Check PHB and SpC for options. Use quick potion (SpC) to hand out potions too. Be the healer at minimum via CLW wands, perhaps preparing 1-2 emergency cures at your highest level too. You can also use area buffs like bless and prayer to open combat. Between combat it will be possible and tempting to solve non-combat situations with your scrolls of almost literally everything. You can, but also craft tons of low level utility wondrous items to hand out to your buddies so they can do it more. Marvelous pigments is one of my favorites. i.e. anything-I-paint-becomes-real-even-holes-and-doors-Wile-E-Coyote paint. But go down the MIC lists sorted by cost and make tons of cheap ones. Especially the ones with utility effects in combat like whip feather token. You'll be too busy buffing to use them yourself. Or ones that only skillmonkeys can use well like the elixirs and goggles of minute seeing. Whatever your party needs.

Last priority is that low level BFC can still be effective at high level. Such as web and sleet storm. But while these are also support spells, you may want to use caution with them as you do with the utility scrolls as they do cause you to take more credit. More than the items and buffs.

I once played a game where we could spend points for class features. If you dumped everything else you could do some crazy combos. I forget exactly what I did but I had 3 poor saves, d4 HD, etc. for something like druid // cleric // feat every level. I extended as many buffs as I could and tried to get them up to 8 hours. Then I handed out buff lists to my fellow PCs, which included energy protections/resistances, stoneskin DR, GMW, freedom of movement, etc. Buffed everyone up the wazoo. I also did imbue with spell ability to let the whole party instantly close wounds anyone who was hurt bad. (1d4+5) x 5 on top of my regular action really adds up. Besides my many scrolls of remove X, I had some high level fix-it spells like panacea and restoration for conditions the low level scrolls couldn't fix. So super buffer/medkit was go. Everyone shined via their buff list. My few remaining combat spells were of limited effectiveness. At one point I ran out of useful spells to cast since most of them went to buffs and those remaining were just fix-it spells. So I hanged back to try to accomplish something with a defeated foe while my party went forward. They ran straight into fight that included a terrifying dragon who full attacked the front liner. His stoneskin made the damage piddly and they still had some close wounds left. They energy resisted the breath weapon. Other buffs made them immune to a couple other effects including grappling. The combat before enemies mostly overcame my druid BFC spells. This next combat enemy action after action failed against my buffs and my party thrashed them without my direct help. I commented "I'm most useful when I'm not around."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Battle Sorcerer 4/ Favored Soul 4/ Mystic Theurge, with Wis 10 and Cha 15, putting level-up points into Cha. That's two and a half full spell levels (five character levels) behind a single-classed prepared caster, using classes with limited spells known for minimal versatility. It has minimal DCs for Favored Soul, limiting it to utility and buffing, which is actually a legitimate MAD-reduction. You can take Battle Caster and wear medium armor, justifying the drawbacks of Battle Sorcerer.


Using Mystic Thurge to advance a class that doesn't have spellcasting as its primary class feature, as well as using NPC classes, is intentionally gimping yourself.

I'd also say a spellcasting stat so low that it blocks access to a given level of spells at the character level you would normally get them is also intentionally gimping yourself. If you're using two different casting stats you need to make sure they're both high enough that neither class is left without being able to use its highest level spells at a given character level.

Not using your highest stat(s) as your primary casting stat is also intentionally gimping yourself IMO, since a MT build is going to be a primary spellcaster any way you look at it. The elite array gives you a 15 and a 14, and using a race that gets a penalty to your primary casting stat should also be considered intentionally gimping yourself.

Level adjustment or needlessly losing caster levels, especially in a build that already has an excuse to lose caster levels, is also intentionally gimping yourself.

[lylsyly]

Using Mystic Turd to advance Champion of Gwin!#^%#@ and Suel Arcanamach in a gestalt game where you COULD prc on both sides so you can advance Barbarian further.

Saw it happen ... Fortunately the DM (me) stopped them from doing it ;)

[SLOTHRPG95]

Thanks, these have all given me things to think about!

[Segev]

Honestly, if you play Mystic Theurge "straight," it's a fairly weak class, given how far behind in spell levels it leaves you. Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10 is a level 13 caster in both classes by level 16, and is thus only just getting level 7 spells. A level 16 caster without splitting is on 8ths, and one level away from 9ths. The Mystic Theurge will need TWO more levels to get ONE of its classes to 8th level spells, unless it uses another Theurge class.

And this 1.5-spell-levels-behind thing persists from the moment you enter Mystic Theurge. (You start not so far behind, and splitting your caster classes slowly builds to that delay by level 6. You can't even get in to MT before level 7, played straight.)

If you really want to delay yourself further, use Sorcerer instead of Wizard, but that's starting to feel like deliberate gimping again.