Once evil, always evil?

[Kato]

Media is full of stories of people who change their 'alignment'. The redeemed bad guy is probably more common than the corrupted hero, but of both there are plenty. Some need more effort than others, some stories are told better.
And almost every hero is at some point faced with the temptation of the dark side, but of course 99% will resist and stick to the right side. Some stories entirely revolve around tempting a person into evil.

But what about the opposite? What about the bad guy who won't turn good? And I don't mean those who are just evil because them being the foil to the good guys is the whole point. I mean someone who tries to be good, who others try to make good, who doesn't want to be bad but who always (or at least long term) fails and is doomed to be the villain.

Maybe my memory is poor or I consume the wrong stuff but I can think of very few instances of that happening. Or are most writers trying to tell us that everyone (or most people) can better themselves if they try? (or is a successful redemption just a better story than a failed one?)

[hamishspence]

What about the bad guy who won't turn good? And I don't mean those who are just evil because them being the foil to the good guys is the whole point. I mean someone who tries to be good, who others try to make good, who doesn't want to be bad but who always (or at least long term) fails and is doomed to be the villain.

Maybe my memory is poor or I consume the wrong stuff but I can think of very few instances of that happening. Or are most writers trying to tell us that everyone (or most people) can better themselves if they try? (or is a successful redemption just a better story than a failed one?)

There is a trope for it:


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil

[GrayDeath]

Elric comes to mind (at times he really really tries^^).

Or many Morcook "Heroes" actually.

[Chromascope3D]

There is a trope for it:


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil

That's more in regards to heroes/anti-heroes/minor characters getting fed up and deciding that they'd rather be the bad guy instead.

[hamishspence]

It covers villains seeking redemption and failing to get it, too.

A related trope:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceDoorSlam

[Darth Ultron]

It's common enough, it's just that few stories of any type are focused on the ''villain''. So they don't get much time to show off the struggle.

Loki is the overly classic example. Some myths have Loki as a member of the group, but still an outsider. Not only do the other gods not fully accept him, but he himself often turns to evil to get things done.....but the twist is that is why he is there: the idea is the gods like to (pretend) to be noble, and have Loki do the dirty ''evil'' work, then they can step back and say ''we did no evil and are good and noble"(sort of). The Loki of Marvel comics and the MCU also act like this, sometimes.

Magento is the classic Marvel example. He quite often tried to be good, but can't help being evil. This is true of the MCU Magento too.

You see this a lot in Once Upon a Time. Many of the ''villains'' want to live good and normal lives....but they just can't resist the temptation of evil. Mr. Gold/Rumpelstiltskin is a great example.

This is the huge story plot in Black Sails as the group of pirates does want to settle down and be good...eventually, and keep getting dragged back to evil.

This is a huge story plot in Burn Notice, as Michael Weston is a good person, who does shady gray if not pure evil stuff often, gets tempted by evil often, and has to fight back to good often...and does not always quite make it.

Cole, from Charmed, is another good example. Love saves him from being a pure evil monster....but he can never quite be good, no matter how hard he tries.

Gyus Baltar is not exactly a villain, but he sure has the same huge problem being a good guy and always, always is tempted by evil...and falls like a dozen times.

Captain Cold on the Flash is a bit of an example. He is a good enough guy, but he just can't avoid the temptation of evil. This is really spotlighted when the Flash tries to ''turn him to the good side".

Londo Marlari from Babylon 5 is again a basic good person, that gets tempted and falls for evil. He struggles often with not doing ''too much" evil, and is too often dragged back down into evil.

Most of the ''crime" type shows like Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy have this set up where it's hard for a criminal to ''go straight'' and/or it is hard to live a good normal life and resist the temptations of evil.

[Kato]

There is a trope for it:


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil


It covers villains seeking redemption and failing to get it, too.

A related trope:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceDoorSlam

Curse you for trying to lure us into the abyss of unending tabs :smalltongue:
But while I agree that not all of them are what I'm looking for, it contains a few good examples. I'd been having a quick look 'there' first but didn't find those two pages.


Also, that's actually a good list from DU.
Some I can't vouch for but e.g. Cole was someone I was thinking of (although I think in the end he became good?) and properly tracking Magneto's life across the Marvelmultiverse seems impossible to decide where he ends up.
But Londo is someone I forgot about who is a pretty straight example.

[Gnoman]

I think C. Montgomery Burns is a pretty good example. There was an entire episode where Lisa's attempt to make him good just made him better at evil.

[Traab]

Illidan Stormrage. His whole deal is basically doing evil things to save everything. He thinks of himself as the hero, the good guy, the one who saves everyone, but he also is addicted to demonic energy and tends to claim it for himself when possible while justifying it by saying he can use it against the forces of evil. And too be fair, he mostly does. His whole character is an ongoing argument over the ends justifying the means.

[Fyraltari]

From Tolkien's Legendarium, Gollum has a moment where he actually repents and turns back into a normal Hobbit for a second. And then Sam wakes up.

Less canonically Saruman and Sauron both reconsider their life choice for a time in complementary materials but ultimately stay evil.

Thinking about it, for a universe where evil is merely the abscence of good and thus does not have power in and of itself (unlike Star Wars' Dark Side of the Force), I can only think of one truly reformed vilain, Ossë, Maia of the Sea.

[comicshorse]

The Master/Missy from Doctor Who, just loves being evil and it is what they do best (See also Davros, Daleks, The Rani, Cybermen, Autons, Sontarans, the Mandagora Helix, etc. Hmmm Doctor Who doesn't seem big on redemption )

[hamishspence]

Thinking about it, for a universe where evil is merely the abscence of good and thus does not have power in and of itself (unlike Star Wars' Dark Side of the Force), I can only think of one truly reformed vilain, Ossë, Maia of the Sea.

While he's not given as an example, I would call him Reformed But Not Tamed (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReformedButNotTamed) - he still loses his temper a lot and throws storms around.

[Fyraltari]

The Master/Missy from Doctor Who, just loves being evil and it is what they do best (See also Davros, Daleks, The Rani, Cybermen, Autons, Sontarans, the Mandagora Helix, etc. Hmmm Doctor Who doesn't seem big on redemption )

The Master had a rdemption failure scene or two even. Cybermen and Daleks don't count since they have built-in systems preventing them from having any positive emotion. Sontarans have been portrayed much more positevely as of late. Autons don't have consciousness as a rule, and the one who had (the Last Centurion) was good. Also I'd argue that the Kaled scientists that opposed the Dalek program on moral principles and got exterminated for their troubles have redeemed themselves. I am sure their are more examples.

[hamishspence]

The Master had a rdemption failure scene or two even. Cybermen and Daleks don't count since they have built-in systems preventing them from having any positive emotion.
Apparently there have been 3 Daleks that have had Heel Face Turns, of a sort:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Sec
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Caan
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Rusty

And two of those were members of the Cult of Skaro, which were all about being able to think like their enemies.

[Fyraltari]

Apparently there have been 3 Daleks that have had Heel Face Turns, of a sort:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Sec
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Caan
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Rusty

And two of those were members of the Cult of Skaro, which were all about being able to think like their enemies.

You forget Alpha, Delta, Omega and the rest of the "Human Factor" Daleks, as well the Last Dalek in the Universe (not).

All of those however had something tamper with them.

They show that it is definitely possible to redeem Daleks, but kind of impossible to acyually pull of on a general scale.

[comicshorse]

The Master had a rdemption failure scene or two even. Cybermen and Daleks don't count since they have built-in systems preventing them from having any positive emotion. Sontarans have been portrayed much more positevely as of late. Autons don't have consciousness as a rule, and the one who had (the Last Centurion) was good. Also I'd argue that the Kaled scientists that opposed the Dalek program on moral principles and got exterminated for their troubles have redeemed themselves. I am sure their are more examples.

Not to derail the thread but : Apart from Strax I'm not aware of the Sontaran's being portrayed more positively (in fact the last time they appeared in 'The Poison Sky' they were trying to exterminate the Human race.) The Last Centurion was only good because Rory was in the driving seat. I'd agree the Kaled scientists were good but they weren't Daleks

[hamishspence]

You forget Alpha, Delta, Omega and the rest of the "Human Factor" Daleks, as well the Last Dalek in the Universe (not).


True - I stopped at Caan, and haven't watched any of the more recent Dr Who episodes.

[Fyraltari]

True - I stopped at Caan, and haven't watched any of the more recent Dr Who episodes.

First time I see someone calling the Second Doctor era recent. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Maybe the wiki is inaccurate: I was taking their word for it in Dalek Caan's entry:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Caan

This is the second of three television Daleks to realise the evil of his kind and turn on them: the others are Dalek Sec and Rusty.

Though I suppose the Human Factor Daleks could have "turned good" without actually knowing about how evil the classic Daleks were and seeking to oppose them.

[Fyraltari]

Not to derail the thread but : Apart from Strax I'm not aware of the Sontaran's being portrayed more positively (in fact the last time they appeared in 'The Poison Sky' they were trying to exterminate the Human race.) The Last Centurion was only good because Rory was in the driving seat. I'd agree the Kaled scientists were good but they weren't Daleks

Well Strax has been our Sontaran representative for a while now. Also they actually have nurses and human allies now, so that's an improvement from the Mengele-wannabe of The Sontaran Experiment.

As for the Last Centurion, that's my point. An auton with consciousness can be good depending on the mind who they are. Just like humans. All the other autons we've seen were just puppets controlled by the Nestene, they weren't any more evil than guns.

The kaled scientists were actively working towards the "total Extermination of the Thals".

Also, another vilainous race who turned good (generally): the Ice Warriors.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe the wiki is inaccurate: I was taking their word for it in Dalek Caan's entry:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek_Caan

This is the second of three television Daleks to realise the evil of his kind and turn on them: the others are Dalek Sec and Rusty.

Though I suppose the Human Factor Daleks could have "turned good" without actually knowing about how evil the classic Daleks were and seeking to oppose them.

Well Alpha, Delta and Omega were never evil in the first place and quickly rebelled against the Emperor. The other "human factor" Daleks don't get as much focusbut they were just your run-of-the-mill Daleks before being infused with it.

It's been a while since I have seen The Evil of the Daleks but i think I remember the classic Daleks freaking out at the "human factor" ones questionning orders and it starting the civil war.

Edit: Also, I strongly recommend watching the Twelth Doctor Era. Capaldi is amazing.

[comicshorse]

Also I'd argue that the Kaled scientists that opposed the Dalek program on moral principles and got exterminated for their troubles have redeemed themselves. I am sure their are more examples.

Fryaltari

The kaled scientists were actively working towards the "total Extermination of the Thals".

Good or Evil then ?

[Fyraltari]

Fryaltari
Never heard of the man.

Good or Evil then ?
Evil then good. That's what redemption means.

[comicshorse]

Never heard of the man.


Must be your evil twin


Evil then good. That's what redemption means.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure recognizing that your boss is straight up crazy and wants to create a race of mutated war machines that answer only to him is redemption worthy. That's not really good just sensible survival instinct

[Fyraltari]

Hmmmm, I'm not sure recognizing that your boss is straight up crazy and wants to create a race of mutated war machines that answer only to him is redemption worthy. That's not really good just sensible survival instinct

There concern was not that the Daleks would kill them, no one in the bunker (save the Doctor & Co) realized that. What they were taking issue with was that the Daleks were to be created specifically with no sense of right and wrong.

[comicshorse]

And you don't have to be too smart to figure out all the ways that 'mutated war machines with no moral sense' could go horribly wrong and get you killed :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

And you don't have to be too smart to figure out all the ways that 'mutated war machines with no moral sense' could go horribly wrong and get you killed :smallsmile:

And yet...

[Kato]

Welp, I guess this has become the new Doctor Who thread now :smalltongue:



Illidan Stormrage. His whole deal is basically doing evil things to save everything. He thinks of himself as the hero, the good guy, the one who saves everyone, but he also is addicted to demonic energy and tends to claim it for himself when possible while justifying it by saying he can use it against the forces of evil. And too be fair, he mostly does. His whole character is an ongoing argument over the ends justifying the means.
Eh... I'd say just because someone thinks he's doing good doesn't mean he is good. From what I can recall, Illidan's actions are pretty obviously... not good. You don't get points for deluding yourself, only actual trying.



Less canonically Saruman and Sauron both reconsider their life choice for a time in complementary materials but ultimately stay evil.

Thinking about it, for a universe where evil is merely the abscence of good and thus does not have power in and of itself (unlike Star Wars' Dark Side of the Force), I can only think of one truly reformed vilain, Ossë, Maia of the Sea.

Huh, what kind of complementary material is that? I'm curious.
And while I'm too lazy to look through the Silmarillion again, isn't that with Osse pretty much just a footnote?

[Dienekes]

Glotka from Joe Abercrombie’s The Frist Law series. One of my favorite protagonists in new fiction. Starts out the disgusting torturer for a corrupt government. Continuously questions why he’s doing evil work. Often tries to do the right thing. And gets dragged back by circumstance and misguided loyalty into becoming the villain that people run from fear just being hearing his name or mentioning his disfigured shadow.

Actually, this is a big part of a lot of Abercrombie’s protagonists. Logan Ninefingers basically plays jump rope with the line of villainy. All while the reader understands why he does everything he does mostly for fairly noble reasons. But he always keeps falling back into turning into the Bloody Nine, murderer extraordinaire.

[Fyraltari]

Welp, I guess this has become the new Doctor Who thread now :smalltongue:
It wasn't me.




Eh... I'd say just because someone thinks he's doing good doesn't mean he is good. From what I can recall, Illidan's actions are pretty obviously... not good. You don't get points for deluding yourself, only actual trying.
It's 50% delusion and 50% poor communication.



Huh, what kind of complementary material is that? I'm curious.
I think it's in Unfinished Tales. Saruman lies to the Nazgûl about having Gandalf prisoner and knowing where theRing is but they capture a servant of his and squeeze the truth out of him. Then they go back to Orthanc to order him to hand Gandalf over. He realises that he is way over his head and that the only thing he can ddo is ask Gandalf for help and stop trying to replace Sauron, but by the time he reaches his observatory Gandalf isn't there anymore and he can spot an Eagle flying away.

In the Silmarillion, it is said at one point that after the War of Wrath, Sauron surrenders to Eönwë and proposes to help rebuild ME to atone. Eönwë tells him to get judged by the Valar but that scares him and he escapes. Then he starts helping with the rebuilding but soon enough he uses that to try and conquer everyone. But for a while he was genuine. Maybe.

And while I'm too lazy to look through the Silmarillion again, isn't that with Osse pretty much just a footnote?
It's about one sentence, yeah but that's what most characters get in that damn book.

[hamishspence]

I think it's in Unfinished Tales. Saruman lies to the Nazgûl about having Gandalf prisoner and knowing where theRing is but they capture a servant of his and squeeze the truth out of him. Then they go back to Orthanc to order him to hand Gandalf over. He realises that he is way over his head and that the only thing he can ddo is ask Gandalf for help and stop trying to replace Sauron, but by the time he reaches his observatory Gandalf isn't there anymore and he can spot an Eagle flying away.
Actually, events happened the other way round - him having the impulse to ask Gandalf for help came first, then he saw the eagle flying away, ceased being repentant, and told the Ringwraiths he'd made Gandalf confess the location of the Ring, and pointed them in the direction of the Shire.

Then they find Bill Ferny's buddy (Saruman's spy), and squeeze the truth out of him, and send him to Bree to be Sauron's spy, and note Saruman's treachery for later reporting to Sauron.


It was one of several different versions (in some, the person who confesses is Wormtongue, but those are less consistent with the timeline in the back of LOTR).

"Version C":

In A and B it was two days after Gandalf's escape from Orthanc that the Nazgûl came to Isengard; Saruman told them that Gandalf was gone, and denied all knowledge of the Shire, but was betrayed by Grima whom they captured on the following day as he hastened to Isengard with news of Gandalf's coming to Edoras.

In C, on the other hand, the Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear and despair, and perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, and to beg for his pardon and help.
Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, and said that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc – and found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras.
Now Saruman's case was worse. If Gandalf had escaped there was still a real chance that Sauron would not get the Ring, and would be defeated. In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange "good fortune" that went with Gandalf. But now he was left alone to deal with the Nine.
His mood changed, and his pride reasserted itself in anger at Gandalf's escape from impenetrable Isengard, and in a fury of jealousy. He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
"I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dûr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. This, says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country." To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. "You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so."
This skilful speech convinced even the Witch-king for the moment that Saruman was a faithful ally, high in Sauron's confidence. At once the Riders left the Gate and rode in haste to the Fords of Isen.

...

Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood) had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purpose of "leaf" and other supplies. Saruman was beginning to store Isengard against war.
This man was now on his way back to continue the business, and to arrange for the transport of many goods before autumn failed. He had orders also to get into the Shire if possible and learn if there had been any departures of persons well-known recently. He was well supplied with maps, lists of names, and notes concerning the Shire.
This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally.
The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.
The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself.
Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

Endnotes:

The entry for the 18th of September 3018 in the Tale of Years reads: "Gandalf escapes from Orthanc in the early hours. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen." Laconic as this entry is, giving no hint that the Riders visited Isengard, it seems to be based on the story told in version C.

[comicshorse]

It wasn't me.


It must have been your Evil Twin again :smallsmile:

[Wraith]

It'll be interesting to see whether or not this trope is applied in the upcoming movie, Venom - in various incarnations in the past, the Veno-symbiote's host has occasionally fallen into it due to the 'addictive' power and presence of the symbiote.

In particular, I'm thinking of the 1990's cartoon series. There are arcs where Eddie Brock genuinely attempts to give up the Black Suit, but is unable to stay away from it out of a combination of addiction and necessity. There's also the end-of-season episode wherein a parallel universe version of Peter Parker, wearing the Carnage symbiote, tries to give it up and thus avert global disaster, but is physically unable to and elects for suicide-by-disintegration instead.

While he *technically* achieves release from his evil actions and intentions in death, he is still inescapably evil and unable to change for more than the amount of time it took to flick the switch on his means of suicide.

There are a few other examples in the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 universe, for a given value of "evil".
One such example is Sentar Jool and his Chapter of Space Marines, the Knights of Blood. Born into a cursed lineage that makes them crave the taste of blood and experience insanity-inducing hallucinations of long past wars, Sentar chooses to embrace the curse rather than try to deny it. It gains him and his brothers incredible strength and ferocity in battle, to the point that they become so dementedly violent that they are designated Traitors by the Imperium and are forced to become outlaw pirates. They are, in the context of the setting, Renegades and formally declared to be the enemies of mankind, such is their savagery, bloodlust, and disregard for human life.
And yet, they continue to fight the enemies of the Imperium, in their own ramshackle and extremely violent way. Even though they're cursed, even though they gave in to the Thirst and let it lead them from the true path of good, they try to return to it as best they can, even when opposed by their parent-Legion and other factions.

Ultimately though, it is for naught. Giving in to the curse can only ever spiral downwards, and by the time that Sentar and the Knights of Blood are finally able to become extinct, they have started to mutate and become truly inhuman - an unforgivable crime which indicates a genuine and irreversible corruption of their souls.
Their final act is to lead a suicidal charge against a horde of daemons in order to save the lives of one of the brother-Chapters - the Flesh Tearers - and even then Sentar admits that he is probably the last of the Knights of Blood to have enough wits left to understand what they're doing; the Knights are damned, and the absolute best thing he can do is to see them all die before they can turn on the Imperium proper.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. I don't know why I remembered Gandalf's escape being at the end of the tale.

[hamishspence]

Their final act is to lead a suicidal charge against a horde of daemons in order to save the lives of one of the brother-Chapters - the Flesh Tearers - and even then Sentar admits that he is probably the last of the Knights of Blood to have enough wits left to understand what they're doing; the Knights are damned, and the absolute best thing he can do is to see them all die before they can turn on the Imperium proper.

I thought all the Blood Angels successor chapters (except the Lamentors) were present at the Siege of Baal where the Knights of Blood finally died?

That said, the rest may all have escaped already - leaving only the Flesh Tearers for the Knights of Blood to save. I was going mostly by the Blood Angels rulebook rather than the novels, which I haven't read.

[Wraith]

That said, the rest may all have escaped already - leaving only the Flesh Tearers for the Knights of Blood to save. I was going mostly by the Blood Angels rulebook rather than the novels, which I haven't read.

Pretty much this. The Blood Angels and their successors were trying to defend an entire solar system and were spread out across several planets; eventually they were forced to fall back, and the call went out to withdraw to the Blood Angels' home planet, Baal Secundus, for a glorious last stand.

Off defending a moon somewhere else in the system, the Knights of Blood offered to Hold The Line and allow the Flesh Tearers to withdraw safely; partly because they were just noble enough to teach a great lesson in sacrifice to Gabriel Seth, whose own Chapter stands on the brink of falling into the same trap as the Knights, and partly because they know that they'll never be allowed to reintegrate into the Imperium even if they survive and they'd rather die than be taken prisoner.

So technically, the Knights never made it to the Siege of Baal; they died out before the final battle. A noble and worthy end, but one that only came about because they were insane, mutated, blood-hungry Renegades and couldn't find another way to save themselves except in memory.

[Fyraltari]

There are a few other examples in the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 universe, for a given value of "evil".

Don't you mean a given value of "good"? Everyone is evil in 40K, that's the joke.

[Wraith]

I mean Evil in that they regularly try - and often, succeed - to commit genocide against the other factions in as many violent and spectacular ways as they possibly can.

The joke there is, that's only evil by our standards - in canon, each of those factions actually deserves such a fate, because if anything they are even MORE evil than "regularly committing genocide on each other". :smalltongue:

[Traab]

Welp, I guess this has become the new Doctor Who thread now :smalltongue:



Eh... I'd say just because someone thinks he's doing good doesn't mean he is good. From what I can recall, Illidan's actions are pretty obviously... not good. You don't get points for deluding yourself, only actual trying.



Huh, what kind of complementary material is that? I'm curious.
And while I'm too lazy to look through the Silmarillion again, isn't that with Osse pretty much just a footnote?

Illidan did do a lot of good. His demonic magic was used to help fight off the burning legion, he came within inches of taking out arthas AND the lich king while he was sealed in ice. He also was constantly making war on the burning legion both out of survival and because he really hates the burning legion. He also did heroic things like coming to the rescue of tyrande, the woman he loves, who loves his brother, both of whom rejected him as a monster for using demon magic in the first place. Oh, and when he attacked the lich king he basically created the forsaken, freeing something like a third of the lich kings slaves from bondage. Yeah the forsaken arent angels but come on, dude freed a lot of slaves even if said slaves turned out to be pretty dark grey at best.

[ben-zayb]

Illidan did do a lot of good. His demonic magic was used to help fight off the burning legion, he came within inches of taking out arthas AND the lich king while he was sealed in ice. He also was constantly making war on the burning legion both out of survival and because he really hates the burning legion. He also did heroic things like coming to the rescue of tyrande, the woman he loves, who loves his brother, both of whom rejected him as a monster for using demon magic in the first place. Oh, and when he attacked the lich king he basically created the forsaken, freeing something like a third of the lich kings slaves from bondage. Yeah the forsaken arent angels but come on, dude freed a lot of slaves even if said slaves turned out to be pretty dark grey at best.
Thing is, Illidan reminds me of Tarquin so much. Willing to help fighting off extinction-level opponents because he doesn't want the world to end? Check. Willing to help someone he cares for? Check. Still Evil? Check.

IMO heroic deeds comes with heroic motives He can claim trying to save elvenkin instead of just his own skin, but burning villages where some said elvenkin reside as means to justify an end (kinda like Arthas culling Stratholme) points to the contrary.

[Kato]

It'll be interesting to see whether or not this trope is applied in the upcoming movie, Venom - in various incarnations in the past, the Veno-symbiote's host has occasionally fallen into it due to the 'addictive' power and presence of the symbiote.

In particular, I'm thinking of the 1990's cartoon series. There are arcs where Eddie Brock genuinely attempts to give up the Black Suit, but is unable to stay away from it out of a combination of addiction and necessity. There's also the end-of-season episode wherein a parallel universe version of Peter Parker, wearing the Carnage symbiote, tries to give it up and thus avert global disaster, but is physically unable to and elects for suicide-by-disintegration instead.

While he *technically* achieves release from his evil actions and intentions in death, he is still inescapably evil and unable to change for more than the amount of time it took to flick the switch on his means of suicide.


Wow, I did not remember that cartoon being that dark... then again, I don't remember it that well.


Also, maybe good old Char Aznabel? But I guess it's more constantly shifting alignments.

I wonder if Prince Lotor from Netflix' Voltron would qualify.

[Lizard Lord]

I think Jack Spicer from Xiaolin Showdown would qualify. There was a whole episode were he actually joined the Xiaolin monks, but decided he just wasn't cut out for it and tried to play the whole thing off as a ploy to steal from them (it is reveled that he didn't intend for it to be a ploy.)

[Traab]

Thing is, Illidan reminds me of Tarquin so much. Willing to help fighting off extinction-level opponents because he doesn't want the world to end? Check. Willing to help someone he cares for? Check. Still Evil? Check.

IMO heroic deeds comes with heroic motives He can claim trying to save elvenkin instead of just his own skin, but burning villages where some said elvenkin reside as means to justify an end (kinda like Arthas culling Stratholme) points to the contrary.

This is true, he is a bad guy, thats why we kill him in WoW, I was just pointing out that he DID do a lot of really good things. He removed the demonic plague infesting the night elf territory and killed the dreadlord running operations there. But he did it by devouring the skull of guldan and taking its power for himself. He came within inches of destroying both arthas and nerzul, but that was on orders from the legion. He came to the rescue of tyrande and I think malfurion at least once, but was cast aside for his use of demonic power. He was sealed away for ten thousand years for using demonic magic (among other things) during the war of the sundering, then when freed he helped the night elves anyways (mostly because tyrande asked him) He WANTS to be the hero, but his methods are horribly flawed.

[No brains]

I feel like there are shades of this in Paarthurnax from Skyrim. Paarthrunax seems 'good' now, but alludes to the temptation of evil being ever present for him. He gives the line “What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”, but an earlier line about denying lesser urges helping to deny greater urges implies that Paarthurnax will always need to exert 'great effort'. While they don't know his exact thoughts on the subject, this is why the Blades feel the need to kill Paarthurnax for his past crimes.

If Delphine wasn't a piece of **** for every season, I'd be more likely to buy into the ambiguity there.

[Giggling Ghast]

There is a trope for it:


Then Let Me Be Evil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil)

He’s actually referring to a different trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionRejection):

The best example I can think of is in Doctor Who, when the Doctor confronts Davros and learnd he is dying. At first it seems like he is legitimately remorseful for his evil ways, but the second the Doctor lets down his guard, Davros reveals he was just playing the Doctor for a fool.

[hamishspence]

He’s actually referring to a different trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionRejection):

The best example I can think of is in Doctor Who, when the Doctor confronts Davros and learnd he is dying. At first it seems like he is legitimately remorseful for his evil ways, but the second the Doctor lets down his guard, Davros reveals he was just playing the Doctor for a fool.

That sounds nothing like the OP's description:


I mean someone who tries to be good, who others try to make good, who doesn't want to be bad but who always (or at least long term) fails and is doomed to be the villain.

[Giggling Ghast]

Oh, I guess I misunderstood.

[tiornys]

After risking the loss of my day and following some "compare with" or "contrast with" links, I believe the correct trope for this thread is Chronic Villainy (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicVillainy).

[hamishspence]

After risking the loss of my day and following some "compare with" or "contrast with" links, I believe the correct trope for this thread is Chronic Villainy (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicVillainy).

Yup. Such a villain may be holding the Villain Ball Magnet. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainBallMagnet)

[Kato]

After risking the loss of my day and following some "compare with" or "contrast with" links, I believe the correct trope for this thread is Chronic Villainy (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicVillainy).

Thank you for your sacrifice. This is indeed probably the best fitting trope (although as is common for TV tropes some examples don't quite fit)

Still, the list is not that long, compared to other entries of alignment change or challenge.

[tiornys]

Thank you for your sacrifice. This is indeed probably the best fitting trope (although as is common for TV tropes some examples don't quite fit)

Still, the list is not that long, compared to other entries of alignment change or challenge.
Agreed. Supports your feeling that this type of character is on the less common side.

[Telonius]

From Tolkien's Legendarium, Gollum has a moment where he actually repents and turns back into a normal Hobbit for a second. And then Sam wakes up.

Less canonically Saruman and Sauron both reconsider their life choice for a time in complementary materials but ultimately stay evil.

Thinking about it, for a universe where evil is merely the abscence of good and thus does not have power in and of itself (unlike Star Wars' Dark Side of the Force), I can only think of one truly reformed vilain, Ossë, Maia of the Sea.

Galadriel (depending on exactly where in the legendarium you take it from) and Thorin might come close. They never really went over into full-blown villainy, but they danced close to it, Thorin in particular.

[Sinewmire]

Zuko, in avatar the last airbender: "Augh, why am I so BAD at being GOOD?!"
Yes, I know, he ends up a good guy.


Argel Tal in The First Heretic. He is SO close to being one of the heroic loyalists in a legion of traitors, but he keeps squashing his second thoughts and doubts and ends up posessed and a monster.

At the last moments he considers, with horror - maybe we are the bad guys, and our genetic predisposition towards faithfulness keeps up from seeing it! But again, he squashes it, and goes ahead anyway.

[GrayDeath]

The First Heretic and A Thousand Sons have great Examples of that, yes.

[hamishspence]

I can only think of one truly reformed vilain, Ossë, Maia of the Sea.

Galadriel (depending on exactly where in the legendarium you take it from) and Thorin might come close. They never really went over into full-blown villainy, but they danced close to it, Thorin in particular.

Celebrimbor, maker of the Three Elven Rings, might qualify as someone who was corrupted a little way by Sauron (before finding out Sauron's true nature, repenting, fighting against him, and being murdered by him). I think in Unfinished Tales, he even exiled Galadriel for opposing his support of Sauron.

[Fyraltari]

Celebrimbor, maker of the Three Elven Rings, might qualify as someone who was corrupted a little way by Sauron (before finding out Sauron's true nature, repenting, fighting against him, and being murdered by him). I think in Unfinished Tales, he even exiled Galadriel for opposing his support of Sauron.
I wouldn't say corrupted as much as mislead. Even in the versions where he stages a coup against Galadriel and Celeborn it's a bloodless one.

Oh, and I nominate Tùrin I-should-really-listen-to-other-people's-opinions Turambar.

[Kato]

Oh, and I nominate Tùrin I-should-really-listen-to-other-people's-opinions Turambar.

I love Turin but he's more like... stupid. And cursed. He's not really evil, at best he's an anti-hero, when he's not doing something horrendous because his line is cursed by the greatest evil in existence. He might be part of a band of robbers but they mostly fight orcs and he's a jerk towards... uhm, that major character? But he's really just a jerk, and depending on the story, he's at least a bit justified.

edit: wait, he did murder that one dwarf for his home. I forgot about that.

[hamishspence]

edit: wait, he did murder that one dwarf for his home. I forgot about that.

And he did murder the guy who told him that: "Nienor is your sister, has found this out from Glaurung the Dragon, and committed suicide."

[Fyraltari]

And two counts of accidental elfslaughter. And when working with the bandits, his second-in-command was a rapist.

[hamishspence]

So was the leader of the band before Turin.

Who killed him (unintentionally) when he saw a woman being chased by "a figure", realised immediately afterward that he'd just killed his own boss, took over the band, and made a "no more attacking civilians, only attack Morgoth's servants" rule.

[Fyraltari]

So was the leader of the band before Turin.

Who killed him (unintentionally) when he saw a woman being chased by "a figure", realised immediately afterward that he'd just killed his own boss, took over the band, and made a "no more attacking civilians, only attack Morgoth's servants" rule.
Tell that to Mîm and Ibûn.

[hamishspence]

Tell that to Mîm and Ibûn.

That was more of a "stumbled into them, his companions overreacted and shot Mîm's other son" situation

Still, the way he extorts Mîm's home out of him is pretty jerkish for one who has supposedly renounced violence against all except Morgoth's followers.

Once he knows Mîm's son is dead, he's a bit repentant, and the bandit group dwell with Mîm and Ibûn reasonably amicably for months.

Interestingly, it's Beleg (Turin's friend and not one of the bandits at all) that Mîm hates enough that he's willing to lead orcs to the place, not Turin. Mîm tries to get the orcs to spare Turin's life, and they agree (but only because Morgoth wants Turin alive).