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Mourne
2018-09-15, 04:54 PM
I believe I’m finally at the “finish line” for this class. It’s been a long journey, full of versions that were over powered, or under powered, or bland, or had no vision, etc. The final product is… playable and fills the niche I originally intended (don’t ask me why I made it a crusade to make this class… I don’t know myself).

Some quick background: My campaigns (and design style) tend to be very low fantasy, gritty, and a little darker. I strive in my homebrewing to create a more mundane origination for most features, preserving magic and the supernatural for much rarer appearances. The Assassin is not intended as high fantasy – though there are definitely elements.

As stated, this represents my final iteration of a full class version of the Assassin. The initial version was (as they often are) too powerful, borrowed too much from the Rogue, and really didn’t have much of an identity – it certainly didn’t justify its existence in relation to the current Rogue (Assassin) archetype. Further versions only got more complicated and never really forged a recognizable identity – though they play-tested “all right” – and still did not provide what would feel like a unique experience. They all really suffered from not having a cohesive vision which could be summed as:

• A class that fit in the stealth-like “sphere” of the Rogue
• A class that did not overlap the Rogue in terms of attribute requirements or expectation of stealth use
• A class that packed more “oomph” than the Rogue but was balanced enough with weaknesses that the Rogue did not become second-tier

Though the class is still complex, it’s not terribly so. The mechanic feel is somewhat like a mashup of a Monk’s Ki and a quasi (less restrictive) Rogue sneak attack die advancement with a splash of Fighter (Champion) on steroids.

I’ve hopefully designed the class to play in a (mostly) unique niche, built primarily around increasing the critical threat range; this is simulate the Assassin’s precision and striking at weak and vulnerable areas. Disguise, detection, and avoidance of detection are the secondary traits whereas the “Ashen Essence” mechanic provides a means of increasing damage, a much needed defensive boost, and a small amount of versatility. The tradeoff for these strengths is a generally subpar defense and skill set – the Assassin is focused on taking down a target now, so defensive training is not emphasized and the time to hone skills is minimal.

The hardest part was to decouple the Assassin from the typical Rogue’s Dexterity attribute pairing (which thematically was the easiest choice). This version of the Assassin is not “classic” in that sense, being based upon Strength and Intelligence. As always though, much like any class, Dexterity still is something that can’t be entirely ignored. I know…both of these attributes are “weak saves”. The Reflexive Strength feature is my work around to this. I hated that it became a work around, but the strong/weak save paradigm is very limiting. An added factor is that I try to be cautious in regards to the ramifications of multi-classing when creating low level features.

Mathematically, the power of the class (in DPR) is intended to play out somewhere mid-point between the Fighter and the Rogue (see breakdown at the end of the class link). Ashen Essence does allow for the Assassin to “nova” enough that they can feel even more deadly… all this is achieved through sacrificing defensive ability (compared to the Rogue); in essence becoming a true glass cannon.

Please give the class a read through. I’m really, really interested in feedback! The player I had testing my earlier versions of the Assassin is not available and simulation only tells you so much. Please don’t be initially scared by the critical hit progression… it’s really not as scary (mathematically) as you probably think.

ASSASSIN (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L7IiIGjhbeDjuLUqL6M)

The Nth Doctor
2018-09-16, 01:01 AM
I have a couple thoughts, though obviously I haven't actually playtested it.

First off, I do think you succeeded in separating your class from the rogue. I like the focus around crit range and think that could make for an interesting play style. Suddenly, advantage becomes even more important. I also like the good balance of out of combat abilities, giving role play focused players a reason to play the class as well.

My comments:

Assassinate: Most Dm's ignore death saves for enemies making part of this ability fairly useless. Maybe the Assassin regains an Ashen Essence upon dropping a creature to 0 hp instead.
Reflexive Strength: Maybe make AC Int+Str instead of Dex to further encourage Int as a primary stat.
Mark Target: Maybe make this a once per short rest ability and buff its power. Maybe Int to weapon attacks and damage. The Int bonus to disarming seems kind of useless, most players don't go for disarms, plus it seem kind of at odds with the flavor of the class as a whole.
Most of the rest seems fine
Relentless: This ability is similar to what some classes get as their capstone ability and the assassin gets it at 17.
Deathstrike: This ability seems way to strong. I feel like some part of it needs to get removed.

Overall, One concern is also ability bloat. To compare, the rogue gets class abilities at 1 (x3), 2, 5, 6, 11, 14, 15, 18, and 20 and archetype abilities at 3, 9, 13, and 17. Your assassin gets more with class abilities at 1 (x2), 2 (x2), 5, 6, 7 (x2), 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 20 and archetype abilities at 3, 9, 13, 18. Notably your assassin gets a class ability at 10, and ASI level, something no other class gets. Maybe think of a way to reduce or combine some abilities to reduce bloat.

Mourne
2018-09-16, 01:41 AM
I have a couple thoughts, though obviously I haven't actually playtested it.

First off, I do think you succeeded in separating your class from the rogue. I like the focus around crit range and think that could make for an interesting play style. Suddenly, advantage becomes even more important. I also like the good balance of out of combat abilities, giving role play focused players a reason to play the class as well.

I'll eventually rope someone into doing some testing. I'm very curious as to how the advancing crit range plays out at the table (versus my spreadsheet).


Assassinate: Most Dm's ignore death saves for enemies making part of this ability fairly useless. Maybe the Assassin regains an Ashen Essence upon dropping a creature to 0 hp instead.

True. It's really more of a ribbon/thematic bit. I'm very hesitant to add anything more as I feel the feature already does what it needs to do.


Reflexive Strength: Maybe make AC Int+Str instead of Dex to further encourage Int as a primary stat.

My feeling is that if I went that direction that there would be too much synergy with the core attributes. I think having to make some sacrifices (e.g. more Str for damage and def versus increasing the DCs of deathcrafts) is along the lines of design intent with a lot of classes (in fact, this is very close to the choice a barbarian has to make with Unarmored Defense).


Mark Target: Maybe make this a once per short rest ability and buff its power. Maybe Int to weapon attacks and damage. The Int bonus to disarming seems kind of useless, most players don't go for disarms, plus it seem kind of at odds with the flavor of the class as a whole.

The mark is intended to be a minor boost and an action economy consumption (as well as set up a marked target for other features). As for disarming, sometimes an Assassin is hired to capture a target... :smallwink: The Int modifier as a bonus comes into play as a later feature. Really, this feature was a remnant of prior versions that I just couldn't bring myself to get rid of. It might be best to strike it, re-distribute the other features -- this would kill some of the feature bloat you mention later.


Relentless: This ability is similar to what some classes get as their capstone ability and the assassin gets it at 17.

True. I don't think it's too deal breaking as many of the more powerful deathcrafts need more than one ashen essence (and it even doesn't allow for the single essence deathcrafts to be overloaded). 17th is the entry into the final tier of power, so this is meant as the Assassin's big power boost -- so, in that regard, is somewhat lackluster.


Deathstrike: This ability seems way to strong. I feel like some part of it needs to get removed.

It likely is (too strong)... though I think it's also likely that most of the core capstones are too weak. :smallsmile: I could (should?) probably change it such that a resistance can't drop below "normal". The resurrection bits are similar to the Assassinate's death save feature -- more thematic than anything.


Overall, One concern is also ability bloat. To compare, the rogue gets class abilities at 1 (x3), 2, 5, 6, 11, 14, 15, 18, and 20 and archetype abilities at 3, 9, 13, and 17. Your assassin gets more with class abilities at 1 (x2), 2 (x2), 5, 6, 7 (x2), 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 20 and archetype abilities at 3, 9, 13, 18. Notably your assassin gets a class ability at 10, and ASI level, something no other class gets. Maybe think of a way to reduce or combine some abilities to reduce bloat.

I partially agree here though I will say that the overall suite of features between the two classes is comparable in power (imo). As for the combination of feature + ASI, there is precedent already though it looks like the "rule" is that the paired feature be somewhat weak or an advancement of a previous feature. Cleric at 8th (ASI + Destroy Undead + Domain feature), Druid at 8th (ASI + Wildshape improvement), Monk at 4th (ASI + Slow Fall), Ranger at 8th (ASI + Land's Stride). I feel that Peerless Deceiver is in this class of feature that can be "safely" paired with an ASI.

Thank you much for the thoughts! Whereas I hoped I was done, I can see that there are some tweaks yet to make. I'll likely tone down the capstone and consider doing something with Mark Target.

The Nth Doctor
2018-09-16, 01:58 AM
My feeling is that if I went that direction that there would be too much synergy with the core attributes. I think having to make some sacrifices (e.g. more Str for damage and def versus increasing the DCs of deathcrafts) is along the lines of design intent with a lot of classes (in fact, this is very close to the choice a barbarian has to make with Unarmored Defense).

At least on this point, the Barbarian has more hp and resistance to round it off. Less AC is fine for a barbarian. This would be more like the monk with their Unarmored Defense ability. Especially with the class only getting light armor proficiency i feel like it would trap the assassin with a relatively low AC which hurts in 5e, especially because they won't have the barbarian's survivability.

Mourne
2018-09-16, 10:28 AM
At least on this point, the Barbarian has more hp and resistance to round it off. Less AC is fine for a barbarian. This would be more like the monk with their Unarmored Defense ability. Especially with the class only getting light armor proficiency i feel like it would trap the assassin with a relatively low AC which hurts in 5e, especially because they won't have the barbarian's survivability.

My point was more along the lines that in many classes, there's a choice that must be made. Making the assassin solely revolve around 2 attributes would make for easy optimization and take away from a player's options. In the barbarian example, a player can go for Str and Con (damage, HP + some defense) or try to spread across Str, Dex, and Con to gain more defense and initiative. Of course, ignoring Dex can be somewhat mitigated by medium armor if one so chooses. Monks have it much worse in the MAD world as they need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.

But you do raise an excellent point. I spent so much time worrying about offensive balance that I may have ignored defense. From a combat standpoint, assassins are expected to play somewhat similarly to the Rogue and, in fact, are a near clone at 1st level. At 2nd level and going forward, the Rogue certainly has more defensive options -- Cunning Action is much more powerful (defensively) than the assassin's Unnatural Vitality deathcraft for example. In hindsight, I guess my feeling was that an overwhelming offense would reduce the need for defense?

I'll take a closer look at this though the easy fix is probably off the table (granting medium armor proficiency) for me. Maybe consider buffing Unnatural Vitality or changing Reflexive Strength to be similar to the UA origin Stone Sorcery's Stone's Durability (e.g. AC = 13 + stat mod)?

Thanks again for the thoughts.

JNAProductions
2018-09-16, 11:26 AM
Monks have it much worse in the MAD world as they need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.

Cut quote down to the relevant portion.

Why do Monks need Strength?

Mourne
2018-09-16, 01:27 PM
Well, need is probably too strong of a word. Why strength? If a monk wants to indulge in grappling, if a monk wants to use a weapon other than unarmed or a monk weapon, if a monk wants to multiclass into a Str class (primarily barbarian but a case could be made for fighter even though they allow for Dex) -- I've even seen a build where a dwarven monk wore heavy armor and wielded a battleaxe (odd, certainly). For attribute decisions, Con is probably more the decision point due to a monk's HD size.

I mean, the whole point behind the discussion was really the choice behind not building a SAD class.

Ogrillian
2018-09-17, 01:44 PM
What is the “hand of judgement” weapon that’s mentioned?and the Favored Jurist feat should allow using Int for Wis would save from being MAD (trust me I play a monk, save yourself the headache) and allow for a considerable boost to your cantrips, other than that I like this class and the archtypes.

Mourne
2018-09-17, 11:20 PM
The "hand of judgment" is what the general populace calls the standard weapon wielded by the Grey Magisters of the Temple of Justice... a light mace made entirely of steel (and slightly longer than normal, though this does not have a mechanical effect). The shaft of this mace is often inscribed with the tenets of law that the wielder specializes in. So, just home campaign lore fluff mainly.

As for your question in regards to Favored Jurist... I prefer to keep it as is as it does give access to an additional strong save. It is somewhat tempting to redesign the guild around subbing Int for Wis but it just doesn't feel right (at the moment).

Where I did mess up -- not surprising given the endless versions I churned out -- was in the 3rd level feature Sagacious Revelation. It's completely incorrect as currently worded. What I'll probably change it to (and this should help your MAD concern as one could build completely for Strength and Wisdom) is something similar to the following:

SAGACIOUS REVELATION
At 3rd level, you may use your Wisdom modifier or Intelligence modifier to calculate the DC of all deathcrafts. You may also use your Wisdom modifier for the extra damage of the Calculated Cruelty feature.

Thanks for your input!