Polymorphing into Humanoids? (Clarification Requested)

[BlackOnyx]

Hey all. Quick(ish) question.

I'm a bit unfamiliar with how polymorphing from one humanoid into another works in standard 3.5e. Specifically, I'm not quite sure how the conservation of hit dice and ability scores works.


(1) For example, could a 7HD human wizard polymorph themselves into a 7HD elf (or a different 7HD person)? Or would the new form be restricted to the single hit dice of an "average specimen?"

The same question goes for creatures; could one boost the HD of a target creature up to the HD limits listed in its "advancement" line?


(2) Looking at Polymorph Any Object specifically, would polymorphing from one race to another automatically bring your intelligence down to the "average" range appropriate to that race? Say a human lich wanted to PAO back into his human form for a while; would his Int immediately drop from 18 to 10 in the process?

[Fizban]

You cannot choose anything about the creature you're polymorphing into other than what it looks like within the bounds of normalcy. No template, no advanced hit dice. You do not polymorph into a "7HD elf," you polymorph into an average elf. Which means your ability scores are base 10s and 11s. When you polymorph into something with more or less hit dice than your own, none of those HD actually matter anyway, because you keep all of your HD based values (only specific [polymorph] subschool spells from later books that turn you into specific stablocks will overwrite any HD based values like base saves).

PAO changes mental stats, so yes, your int drops to 10 if you PAO yourself into a human. But most people that bring up PAO seem to prefer permanently turning themselves into ancient dragons to increase their mental stats.

[BlackOnyx]

When you polymorph into something with more or less hit dice than your own, none of those HD actually matter anyway, because you keep all of your HD based values

Thank you for that clarification; I wasn't sure if Polymorph and PAO inherited that trait from Alter Self.



No template, no advanced hit dice.

Out of curiosity, is there a specific bit of WOTC material that specifically addresses the template issue? (Though I can certainly understand the reasoning.)



PAO changes mental stats, so yes, your int drops to 10 if you PAO yourself into a human.

Fair. (Again, thanks for the clarification.)

[Fizban]

Out of curiosity, is there a specific bit of WOTC material that specifically addresses the template issue? (Though I can certainly understand the reasoning.)
I don't know where it was first mentioned in general, but it can be sourced from the polymorph subschool rules (first in PHB2). Polymorph is basically a complete mess, having been errata'd half a dozen times and basing half its description on another spell that wasn't originally anything like it and has also been errata'd etc. So they came up with new spells that just turn you into a specific creature and replace almost all of your stats, easy to understand, and they wrote the [polymorph] subschool rules for those spells.

How does that interact with the original Polymorph? Polymorph and Polymorph any Object (and presumably Alter Self) are all [polymorph] subschool spells, except for any parts of their text that specifically contradict the [polymorph] subschool rules, on top of everything else. The subschool rules say "an average member of the new form," and nothing in Polymorph says you can really pick anything other than what creature you want to turn into, so you're average*. Templated creatures are not average members: a buffalo which is half red dragon is not an average buffalo.

If the DM is using templates to create new monsters which are then treated like any other monster, found all over the place and propagating their own kind in the background, then those might be considered a new species which players could ask to turn into. Or the DM could rule that the universe knows and no matter how many exist any templated creature is non-average. Basically everything about availability of forms for Polymorph is entirely up to the DM, directly or indirectly, same as the rest of the game.

*Alter Self's text (with errata, from d20srd.org, same as I'm checking for Polymorph) does specifically say that you are disguised as an average member of that race, with minor physical qualities including height and weight being within your control. Some people apparently try to read Polymorph as ignoring lines from Alter Self like the size limit, and thus might claim that this statement of averageness would not apply, but the polymorph subschool would make that claim moot.