your friendly neightborhood Spiderman vs Bats [Archive]

DarkEternal

2007-09-15, 07:24 PM

In terms of pure numbers in a fight one on one Spider-man would devour Batman. Superior strength, superior speed, spider-sense. All of that would certainly make up and then some for martial arts knowledge since one Spider man's punch at full strength would make a hole in Bats through his armor.

However...writers are an strange sort. With "plan" time Bats could find some weakness, develop some Spider repellent and other crap like that. So basically, in a straight up fight, Spider-man would slaughter him. In a tactical battle that was preplanned it depends. Still, I would put my money on Spider-man.

Lemur

2007-09-15, 07:24 PM

Here's how it would go down:

Spidey schools Bats for a bit. Bats manages to escape to the batcave. Bats devises a compound that dissolves webbing. Bats and Spidey fight again, Bats schools Spidey for a bit. Spidey manages to escape and devises an anti-webbing resistant webbing. Bats and Spidey fight again, Spidey schools Bats for a bit. Bats manages to escape, and devises a compound that neutralizes anti-webbing resistant webbing.

Eventually it's uncovered that Evil Villain X, or Team Crossover Villain XY has fooled them into fighting each other. Bats and Spidey work together to defeat said baddie(s).

The Extinguisher

2007-09-15, 07:32 PM

Batman has a supieror knowledge of fighting, being he's more skilled. Spider-man is self-taught and has bad technique, but could punch a whole through Batman's head if need be. Spidey's also has his spider-sense, is much faster, and has those cool poison spikes from The Other. All of Batman's devices are matched by the spider-sense. Even without webbing, which most likey Batman would have something against, They would be roughly evenly matched.

They wouldn't make much hits, but there hits would hurt. But not kill. Given that both chose not to kill, I'd say its a tie. Now, if neither of them were opposed to killing, Spidey would win for sure, given the previously mentioned ability to punch through the Bat's skull.

Green Bean

2007-09-15, 07:37 PM

I really think Spiderman would have an excellent chance of winning this. Spider-sense means ambush and traps ain't really an option, and Batman's martial art skills will only do so much against a guy who has super-agility. Plus he has no real weaknesses; unlike Batman's other theoretical opponents. Batman can't just find a Spider-tonite ring

Tirian

2007-09-15, 09:36 PM

Given that Spiderman and Batman have both been fought to a standstill by opponents who are less mighty than the other, it certainly wouldn't be a simple matter in comic book logic. Spiderman has the might and the agility, but Batman is well known to have upset people with precognition and nigh-invulnerability before.

I think that the final word belongs to Marvel vs. DC where they did face off. And a moment later they were sensible enough to join forces to figure out what the heck was going on to merge their universes.

sealemon

2007-09-15, 10:47 PM

Batman has shown that time and again he's willing to "cheat", such as when he beat THe Legion Of Superhero's Karate Kid (Don't laugh, the guy is the avatar of all things martial arts). I think he'd be more han smart enough to deduce the weakness of spider sense: By having multiple threats come at Spidey at the same time from all directions, you can cause the tingling ot go into overload and give Parker a debiliating migrane (As shown in his guest apperance in the old She Hulk series).

Not only Cap, but Daredevil has fought Spidey to a standstill before. Batman gets the win, despite how lopsided the match appears on paper.

Dhavaer

2007-09-15, 11:21 PM

I think that the final word belongs to Marvel vs. DC where they did face off. And a moment later they were sensible enough to join forces to figure out what the heck was going on to merge their universes.

Do you mean the Amalgam Marvel vs. DC? That one was Captain America vs. Batman and Spiderman vs. Superboy. Spiderman won, and I don't think Cap and Bats actually fought.

kpenguin

2007-09-15, 11:32 PM

Do you mean the Amalgam Marvel vs. DC? That one was Captain America vs. Batman and Spiderman vs. Superboy. Spiderman won, and I don't think Cap and Bats actually fought.

Wasn't that the one that was determined by fan votes? Not really a good reference point.

Logic

2007-09-15, 11:52 PM

I feel the need to end all the vs Batman threads.

*Ahem*

The only reason Batman can defeat all of these villians is because his writers deem it so. There is next to no logical reason for him to defeat Superman, Green Lantern, or Wonder Woman, and yet he has done so on more than one occassion.

Claiming Batman wins due to preperation is just a lazy crutch fans have perpetuated into a phenomenon that writers for some reason still accept.

I recall that Bane once defeated Batman, and it was Bane's superior planning and strategy that caused the Dark Knight to be nearly paralyzed, or even killed. Only writer fiat has allowed Batman to win otherwise unwinnable situations.

Don't get me wrong, I like Batman, and he is one of my favorite characters in comics, period. But if he is as prepared as most of you are saying, then why is there even a Batman comic line? All of them would really be about 4 panels long, with a villian showing up, Batman confronting them, and ending the fight due to his having prepapred for exactly this scenario, and pulls out his anti-specific villian/scenario device.

Finn Solomon

2007-09-16, 12:16 AM

I'd just like to point out that this debate occurred in Animorphs #9. According to Jake, Spider-Man's webs would not stick to Batman's body armor.

And now back to your regular programming.

AtomicKitKat

2007-09-16, 02:08 AM

The only way Bat would be winning this is if he stole some symbiote.:smalltongue:

Essex

2007-09-16, 11:22 AM

Batman is skilled enough to avoid bullets (presumably by reading the body language of the gun wielder). I'm certain that Spider-man's webbing travels at subsonic speed, so Batman can avoid the webbing. Furthermore, even if he is caught I can easily forsee him having some form of acid spray in his utility belt (to melt the hinges off of steel doors and similar hinderances).

Batman is observant enough that he will quickly deduce that Spider-man has some form of enhanced situational awareness and will likely use numerous feints involving an array of utility belt items in an attempt to quantify the limits of the ability. Within a few minutes he'll have a rough estimate of what his opponent's spider-sense is capable of and will take that into account.

Batman is used to fighting superhuman foes and will easily be able to avoid most of Spider-man's attacks while rolling with the few hits that he cannot avoid.

My guess is that while Spider-man could put up an excellent fight Batman will win through the use of a complex plan that likely ends with Spider-man being hit by a knockout drug (since anybody who can take being pounded by the Juggernaut wil be hard, but not impossible, to put down with normal punches).

Tirian

2007-09-16, 12:36 PM

Do you mean the Amalgam Marvel vs. DC? That one was Captain America vs. Batman and Spiderman vs. Superboy. Spiderman won, and I don't think Cap and Bats actually fought.

Um, yeah. That's the one.

Well, despite my evident over-reliance on made-up facts, I still say that they don't fight even if they meet.

GoC

2007-09-16, 02:27 PM

Batman is skilled enough to avoid bullets (presumably by reading the body language of the gun wielder). I'm certain that Spider-man's webbing travels at subsonic speed, so Batman can avoid the webbing.
A. Spiderman is much faster than most gun wielders.
B. His webbing has a larger surface area than a bullet.
C. Spiderman's body language is probably very different.

Batman is observant enough that he will quickly deduce that Spider-man has some form of enhanced situational awareness and will likely use numerous feints involving an array of utility belt items in an attempt to quantify the limits of the ability. Within a few minutes he'll have a rough estimate of what his opponent's spider-sense is capable of and will take that into account.
Batman's not going to have a few minutes.
He's going to have the time it takes Spiderman to get to him+5 seconds.

Batman is used to fighting superhuman foes and will easily be able to avoid most of Spider-man's attacks while rolling with the few hits that he cannot avoid.
Are we talking about the same Spiderman?:smallconfused:

Grod_The_Giant

2007-09-16, 02:32 PM

Batman covers his outfit with an anti-webbing compound.

Bam, it is just martial arts (sure Spidey can jump and swing around, but Bats has that grappling hook). And as much as I like Spidey, he isn't known as the best martial artist.

???
WTF?!?!?

Spidey has, beside the webbing:
Super-strength: I put this in the 10 ton range- he can throw cars around, but he's not, say, the Thing. He's still strong enough to take humans in one or two hits- or kill them in one hit if he doesn't pull the punch.
Super-agility and Spider-sense: His main power. He can dodge bullets from point-blank range from a machine gun he didn't know was there. Let's see Batman do THAT.

Batman is toast. A martial artist with boomerang attacks, tear gas, and other stuff of the nature verses an experienced street fighter with super-strength, obscene agility, a precognitive danger-sense (one that not many enemies know about, from what I've read) and webbing. Guess who wins?

No, not Batman.

Bats does NOT have deux-ex-machina answers for everything. Not everyone has a real weakness. BATMAN IS NOT GOD. He can't avoid every hit. Barring writer stupidity, SPIDER MAN WINS. NOW LETS END THESE FANBOY THREADS.

Essex

2007-09-16, 10:16 PM

A. Spiderman is much faster than most gun wielders.
B. His webbing has a larger surface area than a bullet.
C. Spiderman's body language is probably very different.

A. While Spider-man certainly has much better reflexes than some thug with a gun that was not my point. My point was that his webbing travels slower than bullets and Batman has been proven to easily dodge people firing bullets.

B. While his webbing can affect large areas this would decrease the tensile strength significantly. I'd asume that the few strands of a wide burst that hit could easily be cut by a batarang. Especially since Spider-man now uses an organic webbing rather than his old chemical webbing.

C. Yes, his body language is different. It is much easier to read since he wears a skin hugging leotard rather than the baggy and concealing clothes of your average gun toting thug. Why do you think that his body language would be difficult to read? Spider-man has never studied any martial art that would involve obscuring your body language.

Batman's not going to have a few minutes.
He's going to have the time it takes Spiderman to get to him+5 seconds.

Wrong. Your average thug can be taken down by Spider-man in a matter of seconds. Batman has the situational awareness of an elite commando, the athleticism of an olympic gymnast, the fighting skills of one of the five greatest martial artists on the planet, and the mind of sherlock holmes. Sufficient skill can go a long way towards overcoming a disparity of power levels.

Are we talking about the same Spiderman?:smallconfused:

I believe so. What you don't seem to be considering is that while Spider-man is a very experienced brawler who relies on his overwhelming physical superiority to defeat mobs of thugs, Batman is a master of DOZENS of advanced combat arts who relies on absurd levels of skill and extraordinary tactical knowledge to accomplish the same deeds.

And in case you think that my belief in the likely outcome of such a matchup is skewed by some form of favoritism to one of the characters, please note that I don't actually own a single Batman comic (although I have the Cassandra Cain issues of Batgirl) while I have over 100 Spider-man comics going back to the first appearance of the Hobgoblin.

The fact is that I like Spider-man more as a character as I find it easier to empathise with the Everyman rather than the Ubermensch. That still doesn't change the fact that Batman is more likely to win a fight between the two. Of course it doesn't hurt that Batman's great wealth allows him to fully dedicate himself to training and to equiping himself with the best equipment that money can buy while Spider-man has to scrape by at poorly paying jobs while being entangled in a neverending array of domestic problems.

Essex

2007-09-16, 10:33 PM

Batman is toast. A martial artist with boomerang attacks, tear gas, and other stuff of the nature verses an experienced street fighter with super-strength, obscene agility, a precognitive danger-sense (one that not many enemies know about, from what I've read) and webbing. Guess who wins?

No, not Batman.

Bats does NOT have deux-ex-machina answers for everything. Not everyone has a real weakness. BATMAN IS NOT GOD. He can't avoid every hit. Barring writer stupidity, SPIDER MAN WINS. NOW LETS END THESE FANBOY THREADS.

Of course Batman isn't god. Nobody is claiming that. What I'm saying is that his vastly superior skill offsets Spider-man's superior physical abilities.

Spider-man is VERY strong? So what! If he gets within melee range of Batman his spider-sense will go berserk because he is within punching distance of one of the ten most skilled fighters on earth.

A single spidey-punch can K.O. Batman? So what! The moment Batman sees him jump 50' in a single bound he'll know that his opponent has superhuman strength. Spider-man's combat style is straightforward brawling without any subtlety. Batman will see the punch coming from a mile away and he'll respond with a soft Tai Chi-esque style to throw his opponent around like a rag-doll.

Since Spider-man can't get near Batman he'll be reduced to shooting webs and throwing large objects. I've already noted that the webs will be of only limited utility. Hurled objects will likely be ineffective as well (after all, if that was going to work then Killer Croc or some other strong villain would have killed Batman years ago).

At this point it becomes a battle of wits. Spider-man is very smart. Batman is a tactical genius. Batman's first plan will fail due to Spider-man's spider-sense. His second may fail for the same reason. By that point he'll realise that something is wrong and start using the combat to test his opponent's perceptiveness. Once he is done testing his next plan will succeed.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-09-16, 10:51 PM

I just gotta say, Spider-Man's been decked and (nearly) defeated by regular human criminals in the past. Mostly in his early career and when his powers have been on the fritz, but even in these more modern times, regular putzes get lucky pot shots off on him sometimes. I don't think he's ever fought someone with the mind boggling talents of Batman before, and only a handful of people with such a sizeable arsenal (such as Iron Man or on somewhat rare ocassion the Green Goblin).

The charm of Batman is that he wins when it looks like he's going to lose, and it's always up to either a sudden flash of wits or a truly clever plan coupled with a never-stay-down attitude. People like him because he's cool under fire and will always, always stand back up.

The charm of Spider-Man is that despite his super powers, he has human-like failings in his occupation. He will lose fights. He will make poor or short-sighted decisions sometimes. Despite this, or perhaps because of it, he also has a never-stay-down attitude and fights through truly tramatic physical and emotional pain to find incredibly clever ways of defeating his enemies and saving the day. People like him because of his courage to overcome his own failures and shortcomings and face his demons head on.

That's why I think this would be a close fight. Skills and powers aside, they're both very clever and diehard. They'll adapt as the fight goes on, and it's not gonna stop until someone's out cold. Storywise I'd kind of rather see Spider-Man win this just so Batman can taste what Spider-Man goes through and grow from it, and Spidey can know that despite all his failings, despite all that's wrong with him, he can stand up to and defeat someone of Batman's calibur.

The Extinguisher

2007-09-16, 11:14 PM

That's the thing, Spidey fights and loses to thugs, but then easily takes A-Level Villians like Doc Ock, Green Goblin and Kingpin. It's confusing.

Plus, Spidey has had no martial artist training. That is both a blessing and curse, sure, it means he's moving awkwardly, but that also means that his body language is unpredictable. It's like what happened in a story I read. Someone proclaimed themselves a master of nearly all martial arts, and could read and block/dodge any attack, but he was beaten by a street punk who taught himself to fight, and moved around sloppily and unpredicably.

Anyway, like I said, if both were willing to kill, I would give it to Spider-man, because Batman is not going to hit him, and while Spidey is likely not to hit the Bats, he's got a better chance a much, much harder punch.

Plus, he has the spike things. I really wish that more writers would take advantage of that.

Beleriphon

2007-09-17, 02:58 AM

Plus, Spidey has had no martial artist training. That is both a blessing and curse, sure, it means he's moving awkwardly, but that also means that his body language is unpredictable. It's like what happened in a story I read. Someone proclaimed themselves a master of nearly all martial arts, and could read and block/dodge any attack, but he was beaten by a street punk who taught himself to fight, and moved around sloppily and unpredicably.

The problem is that sloppy fighting is sloppy because you make it very obvious what you intend to do. Self taught fighters might eventually avoid this after years of practice, but a skilled fighter is just as likely to be able to read any subtle tells whether they fight an opponent that uses a known style or not.

AtomicKitKat

2007-09-17, 05:46 AM

Batman does not dodge bullets after they are fired. Bear in mind here, either the thug already had the gun out, and Batman sees their eyes flicker before they pull the trigger(or notes the slight shift in body weight to reduce recoil, or the finger movement), or they reached for it(by which time he's already darting behind a corner). Spidey has no such weaknesses. His eyes are behind reflective(I think) lenses in his mask. His web-shooting hand configuration is unusual, but takes experience to note that it's what triggers the webbing.

And Spidey's Spider Sense will not "go haywire because he is in the presence of one of the world's best martial artists". It is typically quite specific, possibly in the same way that a Beholder can detect sounds in all directions through a variety of membranes(ie, the tingling occurs in such a way that he can pinpoint the direction of the attacks). Eg. If they both fail to get surprise on each other, and are basically circling one another, it will only trigger when Bats attempts to throw a Batarang.

Spidey can't throw cars. I don't know where people get the idea, but at best, he might be able to pull a passenger jet(kind of like those strongman demonstrations with trains/jets, but standing rather than on all fours or staggering), or catch a car thrown by an explosion. With webbing, he could potentially Giant Swing a motorcycle for a couple hundred metres. Assuming he doesn't hold back, he might be able to heave Kingpin about twice the distance(almost 1/2 a klik). 10 tons is his upper limit. At that tonnage, he's straining. He's using pretty much his whole body to support it. Let's put this in perspective here. Your average competitive(as in regional or Olympic games) weightlifter is lifting maybe 250 kilos(1/4 ton) in a single lift. I would say I'm capable of lifting my brother(50 kg) overhead with roughly the same effort. So let's see here. Spider-man=40*Strongman=200*me. I can chuck maybe a 10 kg sack of rice/sand/whatever for about 3m, if I Giant Swing it(the move involves grabbing a person by the ankles and then rotating on the spot like a hammer throw. In this case, I grab 2 corners on one end, and do a 180 to 360 degree spin). So let's say the bag is 1/5 of my maximum capacity. A car is around 2 tons, which hey, is also 1/5 of Spidey's capacity. So if he grabs a car by the corners, he can chuck it for about 5 metres. If he's carrying it(if you play Freedom Force, I'm talking in that manner. On its side with his hands on the doors), he might move it as far as 20 metres. With a run-up.

GoC

2007-09-17, 10:37 AM

Wrong. Your average thug can be taken down by Spider-man in a matter of seconds. Batman has the situational awareness of an elite commando, the athleticism of an olympic gymnast, the fighting skills of one of the five greatest martial artists on the planet, and the mind of sherlock holmes.
So?
Spiderman has supernatural situational awareness, athleticism far greater then olympic gymnasts can dream of, the strength of 100 normal men and the resilence to ignore any punch given to him.

I believe so. What you don't seem to be considering is that while Spider-man is a very experienced brawler who relies on his overwhelming physical superiority to defeat mobs of thugs, Batman is a master of DOZENS of advanced combat arts who relies on absurd levels of skill and extraordinary tactical knowledge to accomplish the same deeds.
I am definitely considering it. see below

A single spidey-punch can K.O. Batman? So what! The moment Batman sees him jump 50' in a single bound he'll know that his opponent has superhuman strength. Spider-man's combat style is straightforward brawling without any subtlety. Batman will see the punch coming from a mile away and he'll respond with a soft Tai Chi-esque style to throw his opponent around like a rag-doll.
Throwing Spiderman around like a rag doll? With Tai Chi?:smallconfused:
See it coming a mile away? i thought spidey had superhuman speed?

Let's put some rough numbers on this:
1,1,1 is going to be an ordinary human (str,dex,con or Strength,Speed,Resilence)
1,2,3 is someone who has the same strength as an ordinary human but is twice as fast and three times as resilent
3,2,3 is an ordinary black belt
4,3,4 is this worlds best fighter
200,3,25 is my guess for spidey as those 4 extra limbs with spikes increase both hit chance and damage and spider-sense increases dodge ability (please help with this one)
4,1.5,4 is my estimate of a man with Batman's (impossible) physical condition (due to the speed limit in human nerves his speed can't go any higher I'm afraid)
I'd guess that near perfect martial arts doubles both your effective strength (damage on an ordinary hit) and your ability to hit/dodge (including extra "criticals")
His armor probably gives 4x (1x vs. criticals due to no face protection) to his resilence due to blows being distributed over a large surface area.
This gives Batman 8,3,16 (iow: Really kick arse:smallcool: ).
Meaning in a fight that's purely hand-to-hand fight (no belt, Dues Ex Machina or any terrain) Batman would lose against Spidey.

In order to understand what the speed multiplier means imagine the world slowing down by that factor while you stay the same speed (a martial arts movie looks much less impressive when viewed at 1/4 speed).
In order to realize what the resilence multiplier means imagine all blows coming at 1/sqrt(con) times the speed and 1/con times the strength.

Speed is generaly the most important attribute. 2x Dex is a match for 4x Str or Con. 4x Dex is a match for 16x Str or Con. ect.
Note:Generaly strength above 5 times the square of the Dex doesn't give extra damage in punches.

Please feel free to give advice.

Essex

2007-09-17, 12:18 PM

Batman does not dodge bullets after they are fired. Bear in mind here, either the thug already had the gun out, and Batman sees their eyes flicker before they pull the trigger(or notes the slight shift in body weight to reduce recoil, or the finger movement), or they reached for it(by which time he's already darting behind a corner). Spidey has no such weaknesses. His eyes are behind reflective(I think) lenses in his mask. His web-shooting hand configuration is unusual, but takes experience to note that it's what triggers the webbing.

So you're saying that Batman, who has fought and defeated numerous superbeings over the years, is going to watch as a guy in a brightly colored leotard raises an arm, points it at him, makes an odd hand gesture, and tenses his arm muscles (said tensing being obvious through a skin tight leotard) for no obvious reason and ISN'T going to dodge?

And Spidey's Spider Sense will not "go haywire because he is in the presence of one of the world's best martial artists". It is typically quite specific...

Specific? Where do you get that? He has been on a subway train with a guy carrying a concealed gun and his spider-sense gave him a vague sense of danger without indicating a source. He has been in a broom closet and about to take off his costume when his spider-sense kicked in because of a hidden watcher, but didn't know why he was sensing danger.

Also, stop mangling my words. If you want to make an argument then why don't you actually quote me instead of putting quote marks around your own misinterpretation of what I said? I said nothing about Batman's presence making Spider-man's spider-sense go "haywire". I noted that being in MELEE COMBAT with a martial artist of Batman's caliber will set off his spider-sense for obvious reasons. Batman attacks. Spidey-sense kicks in and Spider-man dodges. Batman adjusts to the dodge and attacks. Spidey dodges. Batman begins series of attacks that push Spider-man further and further out of balance as he repeatedly dodges. Eventually Batman pushes Spidey so far out of balance that he cannot dodge because Batman thinks a dozen moves ahead in a fight while Spidey just adapts to the situation at the moment. Checkmate!

Spidey can't throw cars. I don't know where people get the idea...

Spidey can lift an armored car over his head with only moderate strain. In fact, he once did so while clinging to a wall in order to prove who he was so that he could testify at a trial. If he can lift an armored car without hurting himself then he can throw a normal car.

Essex

2007-09-17, 12:27 PM

So?
Spiderman has supernatural situational awareness, athleticism far greater then olympic gymnasts can dream of, the strength of 100 normal men and the resilence to ignore any punch given to him.

Resilience to ignore any punch given to him? Where do you get that? While Spider-man can take a real beating, he has been beaten senseless by humans in the past.

Throwing Spiderman around like a rag doll? With Tai Chi?:smallconfused:
See it coming a mile away? i thought spidey had superhuman speed?

No, Spider-man does not have superhuman speed. He has superhuman reflexes. There is a difference. He cannot run, punch, or perceive things at an appreciably greater speed than an athletic human. What he can do is REACT to events faster than a normal human. When you add to that the fact that his spider-sense warns him of incoming attacks a fraction of a second before they would strike him you find that he can dodge almost any attack made against him.

One of Spider-man's weaknesses is fighting opponents who are faster than he is. After all, amazing reflexes and a spider-sense aren't useful if your opponent can hit you faster than you can try to dodge dodge.

Stam

2007-09-17, 12:56 PM

So you're saying that Batman, who has fought and defeated numerous superbeings over the years, is going to watch as a guy in a brightly colored leotard raises an arm, points it at him, makes an odd hand gesture, and tenses his arm muscles (said tensing being obvious through a skin tight leotard) for no obvious reason and ISN'T going to dodge?

Just on this one point...no, I'd expect he'd use the webbing while in mid-air twisting through a spray of batarangs that Batman had just thrown at him, sending the streams through the barrage at an opponent who was just recovering from a throw.

A la what has happened many times, I think. Spiderman leaves the dodge to his spider-sense and reflexes, allowing him to focus on attacking at the same time.

Grod_The_Giant

2007-09-17, 02:31 PM

He is able to lift and throw objects such as a semi truck with ease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man%27s_powers_and_equipment#Superhuman_strength_a nd_durability)
Come on- a normal, 4-door car weighs what? Half a ton? A ton? Remember, Spidey's powers have been upgraded nowadays.

Batman won't overload his spider-sense- if fighting the Hulk won't do it, Batman certainly won't. The only examples of foes who could do that were the Beyonder (near omnipotent reality alteration) and Morlun, who Spidey said "hits harder than any foe he had ever battled, including the Hulk and Thor," and has enough speed, reflexes and agility to keep up with him.

I can see Batman managing this, somehow, but I think Spidey still has a better chance of winning.

GoC

2007-09-17, 06:24 PM

Resilience to ignore any punch given to him? Where do you get that? While Spider-man can take a real beating, he has been beaten senseless by humans in the past.
Sounds like a writer mistake.

No, Spider-man does not have superhuman speed. He has superhuman reflexes. There is a difference. He cannot run, punch, or perceive things at an appreciably greater speed than an athletic human. What he can do is REACT to events faster than a normal human. When you add to that the fact that his spider-sense warns him of incoming attacks a fraction of a second before they would strike him you find that he can dodge almost any attack made against him.
Ah. I see.
His Dex multiplier is still 3 though, right?

One of Spider-man's weaknesses is fighting opponents who are faster than he is. After all, amazing reflexes and a spider-sense aren't useful if your opponent can hit you faster than you can try to dodge dodge.
True.
What's your take on his 'stats'?
Do you agree with the rough numbers for Batman?

Essex

2007-09-17, 09:58 PM

Sounds like a writer mistake.

He has been beaten by unaugmented people several times over the years and none of them were nearly as nasty as Batman. While one of these defeats was followed up years later by Spidey slapping the guy around like a redheaded stepchild and loudly wondering how he'd ever lost to such a loser, it doesn't discount the fact that Spidey can lose to a lucky, skilled, or well prepared normal foe.

Ah. I see.
His Dex multiplier is still 3 though, right?

True.
What's your take on his 'stats'?
Do you agree with the rough numbers for Batman?

I think that your take on stats is a misleading. By reducing everything down to three numbers you greatly warp things in favor of the guy with superpowers. You also seem to be using Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit built by Tony Stark. That was a temporary thing and I wasn't counting that. Heck, I'd say that he'd be taken out even faster in the suit since Batman would just phone Oracle and have her use a wireless computer connnection to hack the suit (since she is the best hacker in the world).

I prefer using the GURPS system to model characters. If you think that Spidey can stagger around while holding over 10 tons (Extra-Heavy Encumbrance) then I believe that this would give him a strength of about 45. This would give him an extraordinary 45 hit points (letting him soak up a lot of hits) and 5d6 punching damage (I don't think his brawl skill would be high enough for extra damage). I'd put his Dex at about 24 (while giving him a lot of agility based advantages) and put his Int and Health at around 16. Spidey has a speed of 10 and a dodge of 13 (before counting the enhanced dodge from his spider-sense).

I'd put all four of Batman's Basic Attributes in the 17 to 19 range. This would mean that Batman's punches do about 1d6+2 damage (with an additional +2 damage from an exceptionally high Karate skill). Batman's speed is about 9 and his dodge is about 12 (before counting any improvements from extreme combat training).

This tells me that Spidey is a bit better at dodging then Batman, does over twice as much damage with each successful hit, and can take almost 3 times as much damage before hitting negative hit points. Furthermore, even if Spidey only has Brawling at Dex level (24) while Batman has Karate at an exceptional Dex+4 (21) this means that Spidey's brawling attacks are more likely to hit than Batman's karate strikes because of his high ability score.

While this seems to prove that Spidey would win, it does not account for the fact that Batman has body armor, a gizmo belt, and a lot of additional martial arts options (Basically, Batman owns GURPS Martial Arts and Spidey doesn't).

Green Bean

2007-09-17, 10:06 PM

I think that your take on stats is a misleading. By reducing everything down to three numbers you greatly warp things in favor of the guy with superpowers. You also seem to be using Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit built by Tony Stark. That was a temporary thing and I wasn't counting that. Heck, I'd say that he'd be taken out even faster in the suit since Batman would just phone Oracle and have her use a wireless computer connnection to hack the suit (since she is the best hacker in the world).

I take issue with this. Oracle is the best hacker in the DC world. We have no idea how she'd stack up against someone like Stark. Besides, not everything is online. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingIsOnline)

Lemur

2007-09-17, 10:45 PM

*Reviews the evidence for both (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI&mode=related&search=) sides (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKhCHK3AkU&mode=related&search=) of the competition*

Hmm, a fierce battle indeed.

GoC

2007-09-18, 08:48 AM

I think that your take on stats is a misleading. By reducing everything down to three numbers you greatly warp things in favor of the guy with superpowers.
It's a rough estimate. And things always favor the guy with superpowers.

You also seem to be using Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit built by Tony Stark. That was a temporary thing and I wasn't counting that. Heck, I'd say that he'd be taken out even faster in the suit since Batman would just phone Oracle and have her use a wireless computer connnection to hack the suit (since she is the best hacker in the world).
Why on earth would spidey's suit have an internet connection?:smallconfused:

*GURPS stuff*
Me and a friend once looked over GURPS Heroes and agreed that it does a poor job of modeling Marvel and DC Superheroes. For example the fact that "vulnerability to a common Earth substance" doesn't reduce the end score by a percentage.

But while we're on the subject...
I don't suppose you'd know how to calculate the score of someone with x self- time compression?
That gives x^2 times normal strength, x times normal speed, x times normal percepton speed and x^2 times the normal resistance. The last one means all attacks are considered to have 1/x^2 times the energy resulting in 1/x speed of incoming projectiles/fists and 1/x^2 any continous force.
For x>=5 this puts most punches below the damage threshold.

AtomicKitKat

2007-09-18, 08:59 AM

Also, stop mangling my words. If you want to make an argument then why don't you actually quote me instead of putting quote marks around your own misinterpretation of what I said? I said nothing about Batman's presence making Spider-man's spider-sense go "haywire". I noted that being in MELEE COMBAT with a martial artist of Batman's caliber will set off his spider-sense for obvious reasons. Batman attacks. Spidey-sense kicks in and Spider-man dodges. Batman adjusts to the dodge and attacks. Spidey dodges. Batman begins series of attacks that push Spider-man further and further out of balance as he repeatedly dodges. Eventually Batman pushes Spidey so far out of balance that he cannot dodge because Batman thinks a dozen moves ahead in a fight while Spidey just adapts to the situation at the moment. Checkmate!

Happy now?

I don't always quote because it's yet another strain on the board, by making it go through the process of coding a link to the post quoted, putting the fancy quote box, etc.

Please re-read your own post. You said:

Spider-man is VERY strong? So what! If he gets within melee range of Batman his spider-sense will go berserk because he is within punching distance of one of the ten most skilled fighters on earth.

Spidey's spider-sense only triggers to presence when he's not aware of it. Once he's aware of the person(as he should be, unless he's fighting with a chamber pot on his head), it reacts only to direct threats from the person. Which is what you later clarified. However, I have never heard of him being so "exhausted" or "off balance" from a fight due to his Spider Sense being overloaded just because his opponents throw dozens of punches at him. Bear in mind here, this is partly writer dependent, but Spidey's spider-sense does generally indicate the direction of the threat, and even then, sometimes only if it relates to him. If it went off for every single possible threat, he'd be curled up in a foetal position just being at home.