a simple martial fix

[Boggartbae]

I've been trying to fix the problems that 3.P martial characters have with over-reliance on feats and magic items, and I had the Idea to just give everyone a free weapon at character creation with total enhancement bonuses totalling no more than 1/2 their BAB, rounded down. Players can spend additional gold from their standard wealth pool to improve the weapon, but they still can't make it more valuable than 50% of their starting wealth (if the weapon starts more valuable that's ok)

So If we start at level 5, Fighters get a free +2 weapon, and Clerics and Wizards would get a free +1 weapon. I like that this solution gives the most to full martial characters, but barely anything to full caster classes that don't use weapons, and if the wizard manages to sell the weapon once the campaign starts, it still wouldn't augment their starting wealth by that much.

It also kinda solves the feat tax problem because of the training weapon special quality in pathfinder, which gives you a free combat feat for a +1 bonus equivalent.

Does anyone think that this is too much of a boost to martial characters, or do they need a different solution that doesn't just give gold?

[martixy]

One does not solve a systemic problem with anything you could call "a simple fix".

And why would this work through the proxy of a weapon. Why not just an innate character feature tied to BAB?

[ngilop]

Instead of this, how about you give access to Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression)

and change it around so that Fighters, Rogues, Cavaliers, gun slinger, Monks, and Barbarians get full progression

Paladins, Rangers, Keneticist, Brawler, Bloodrager, and slayer get 3/4 progression


while everything else gets half progression.

[Boggartbae]

Instead of this, how about you give access to Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression)

and change it around so that Fighters, Rogues, Cavaliers, gun slinger, Monks, and Barbarians get full progression

Paladins, Rangers, Keneticist, Brawler, Bloodrager, and slayer get 3/4 progression


while everything else gets half progression.

I'll run this by my group, but I do like having more flexibility. How would you rule on things like furious work with automatic bonuses?

[zlefin]

it's definitely not too much of a boost. it would in general be too little of a boost really, outside of very low optimization groups with the casters not choosing good spells.

The complex fix of using one of the existing martial reworks (ToB/PoW/SoM) is best if the players are up for it, but not every group is up for that.

[GabesHorn]

One of the simplest and least controversial fixes for Fighter which won't balance the class to be on par, but alleviate much of its issues, is just to make skills 4 + INT.

The enhancement bonus doesn't change a whole lot because it's almost never a numerical thing with unbalance. Just a bunch of ways to overcome all the things that straight up negate martials. Flying enemies, immunities, planar travel, all the save or suck/die spells etcetera.

[Boggartbae]

The complex fix of using one of the existing martial reworks (ToB/PoW/SoM) is best if the players are up for it, but not every group is up for that.

What's SoM?


One of the simplest and least controversial fixes for Fighter which won't balance the class to be on par, but alleviate much of its issues, is just to make skills 4 + INT.

The enhancement bonus doesn't change a whole lot because it's almost never a numerical thing with unbalance. Just a bunch of ways to overcome all the things that straight up negate martials. Flying enemies, immunities, planar travel, all the save or suck/die spells etcetera.

You could also add abilities like flaming or keen, so it's not just a numerical bonus. I came up with this idea when i was sick of having to choose between utility items that give flight and stuff, or having a really wicked sword.

[ElFi]

What's SoM?

Spheres of Might! It's a martial variant rules system made by Drop Dead Studios; you can find all the rules (as well as those for Spheres of Power, its sister system aimed at casters) here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/). The general gist of the system isn't so much outright buffing martials as it is aimed at diversifying builds, both in terms of options and out-of-combat viability, as well as making more niche concepts (and those just simply not supported by Pathfinder core) viable. Make an unbreakable protector who can guard the entire battlefield with blade alone, or a master thief who can walk unseen in broad daylight and steal platemail right off the warrior wearing it, or an animal tamer flanked by a squad of loyal critters! It's pretty neat. It also includes a bunch of new base classes designed to work with the system, a few of which (Blacksmith, Technician, and Scholar notably) have options that basically allow a typical game to cut out the need for casters entirely, if you're into that sort of thing.

Sorry. I ramble when I'm excited about something.

As for your magic item idea- I don't have the mental capacity to parse the full ramifications right now, but maybe tie it to casting capability instead of BAB? Paladins, which can enchant their weapons on the fly already, walking around with spiffier swords than rogues, vigilantes, or monks kinda defeats the point of this being a martial fix. So if you can't cast at all, you get the full progression, 3/4th progression if you're a low-caster (paladins, bloodragers, rangers), half progression if you're a mid-caster (bards, summoners, alchemists), and 1/4 progression if you're a full-caster (wizards, clerics, druids). Also, how would this idea work with classes that fight unarmed (monks, brawlers, and some niche barbarian builds) or with natural weapons (shifter, druid, some ranger builds)?

[Boggartbae]

Spheres of Might! It's a martial variant rules system made by Drop Dead Studios; you can find all the rules (as well as those for Spheres of Power, its sister system aimed at casters) here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/). The general gist of the system isn't so much outright buffing martials as it is aimed at diversifying builds, both in terms of options and out-of-combat viability, as well as making more niche concepts (and those just simply not supported by Pathfinder core) viable. Make an unbreakable protector who can guard the entire battlefield with blade alone, or a master thief who can walk unseen in broad daylight and steal platemail right off the warrior wearing it, or an animal tamer flanked by a squad of loyal critters! It's pretty neat. It also includes a bunch of new base classes designed to work with the system, a few of which (Blacksmith, Technician, and Scholar notably) have options that basically allow a typical game to cut out the need for casters entirely, if you're into that sort of thing.

Sorry. I ramble when I'm excited about something.

As for your magic item idea- I don't have the mental capacity to parse the full ramifications right now, but maybe tie it to casting capability instead of BAB? Paladins, which can enchant their weapons on the fly already, walking around with spiffier swords than rogues, vigilantes, or monks kinda defeats the point of this being a martial fix. So if you can't cast at all, you get the full progression, 3/4th progression if you're a low-caster (paladins, bloodragers, rangers), half progression if you're a mid-caster (bards, summoners, alchemists), and 1/4 progression if you're a full-caster (wizards, clerics, druids). Also, how would this idea work with classes that fight unarmed (monks, brawlers, and some niche barbarian builds) or with natural weapons (shifter, druid, some ranger builds)?

I'll check that out!

I like basing it on casting ability, so that rogues can have nice things. As for the natural weapons, maybe give them an amulet of mighty fists that's 1 enhancement point weaker than what they would normally get.

[GabesHorn]

What's SoM?



You could also add abilities like flaming or keen, so it's not just a numerical bonus. I came up with this idea when i was sick of having to choose between utility items that give flight and stuff, or having a really wicked sword.



At which point where's the difference between DM fiat to give lots of magic items and having a set rule to give martials a magic item from the get go?

There are magic requiring tasks that martial characters can't replicate unless they get crazy wushu abilities, like pseudo flight through leaping or cutting holes in dimensions.

[Serafina]

Martials don't need bigger numbers - they can already put out good amounts of damage.
Martials need interesting options and variety, both in and out of combat.

A good character should be built around a couple of concepts in combat, so that everyone knows what they do, but they also stay interesting.
Vancian spellcasting (=what Pathfinder uses) innately does that because the system forces you to always have different spells available. You'll always have variety, even if you build your character around a single concept such as "cold spells" you'll have spells that do a bunch of different things in that single concept.
Compare that to how martials do it. You're expected to get several feats to make a lot of concepts (such as anything related to combat maneuvers) work, and feats are a limited, static resource. At best, your character will be good at one or two things.

Like, seriously - just try to make a martial character that does more than one or two things in combat?
Try to make an archer that does more than "I spam full attacks as often as possible". At best, if you get a lot of bonus feats, you'll be able to tag on one combat maneuver or debuff or such.
Try making a tank/battlefield controller that does more than having reach and some attacks of opportunity that stop enemy movement?
Try making a character built around any combat maneuver that does then branch out into another thing - without that character being level 11+ or so, and basically starting their progression over in that other thing?

That's the problem. There are already solutions for it.

Path of War (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) fixes it by giving you martial maneuvers that do cool things (sometimes they're magical, most aren't). And just like with vancian spellcasting, you'll always have different maneuvers available - the system makes it so. No Path of War character is ever going to be stuck with just one option in combat (well, unless it's the only good one, or they're already used all their other resources), and they'll typically have options for offense, defense, mobility and support. Also, most maneuvers are standard actions so you can move and attack without worries.

Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) fixes it by making it a lot easier to get multiple options. Combat talents are basically better feats with all the feat chain baggage removed, often made better and more functional right from the start. You also get more of them - not to get bigger numbers, but to get more options. Here, you actually can easily make a martial character that does more than one or two things in combat, if you want to. And finally, the system heavily builds around the attack action - meaning that martials finally have their move action free, so you can actually move and attack in the same turn.

If you really want to fix martials, just use one of those systems. If you want to stick to a more traditional feel, use Spheres of Might - it's very easy to learn.

[Cosi]

Weapon Enhancements aren't really necessary for Fighters. Sure, they help, but ultimately the Fighter's biggest problems aren't in combat. I would suggest instead offering a custom Weapon of Legacy (with the penalties removed), or some minor spellcasting, as those are better for giving the non-combat abilities Fighters need.

If you are looking for a combat fix, I think a free Gestalt with a Tome of Battle, Path of War, or Spheres of Might class is a better fix, and it doesn't give a splash benefit to casters.


One of the simplest and least controversial fixes for Fighter which won't balance the class to be on par, but alleviate much of its issues, is just to make skills 4 + INT.

But the Fighter skill list sucks. Yes, they need more points, but they also need places to put those points.

[ElFi]

But the Fighter skill list sucks. Yes, they need more points, but they also need places to put those points.

Agreed with the above. Barbarians getting extra skill points compared to fighters ultimately doesn't matter that much because the class skill lists of both are honestly just atrocious. My various drabbles for fighter fixes tend to at least add Appraise (stripping weapons off the corpses of enemies is harder if you don't know how valuable they are), Heal (providing field medicine), and Diplomacy (not all muscledude classes should be incapable of contributing to social encounters outside of Intimidate).

Ultimately, though, a lot of that tends to not matter because of how thoroughly magic trumps skills in pretty much all ways. A rogue who wants to become a master of sneaking around would need to grind out 20 ranks in Stealth and probably dip a level into Shadowdancer to get stealth capabilities even remotely close to what a 3rd-level wizard can accomplish with an invisibility spell. And that's just one example. The caster vs. martial disparity is baked into the system at such a fundamental level that a true fix is almost impossible without overhauling the whole thing.

[Boggartbae]

Looks like I'll be teaching my group a new system.

Thanks for all the advice everyone :)

[Cosi]

A rogue who wants to become a master of sneaking around would need to grind out 20 ranks in Stealth and probably dip a level into Shadowdancer to get stealth capabilities even remotely close to what a 3rd-level wizard can accomplish with an invisibility spell.

Well, to be fair, that's a Wizard expending a substantial portion of their daily resources and directly trading off with gitterdust or web. Having a non-combat spell beat a non-combat encounter seems entirely reasonable in light of the degree to which combat spells beat combat encounters. The real problem is that non-caster utility doesn't scale up at higher levels.

[Serafina]

Looks like I'll be teaching my group a new system.

Thanks for all the advice everyone :)Out of curiosity, which one?

[Boggartbae]

Out of curiosity, which one?

I'll start with spheres of might. I liked the 3.5 maneuvers in ToB, but they were never different enough, so if PoW is anything like that I'll try other stuff first.