Phantasmal force or Suggestion?

[Stygofthedump]

There can be only one! which is it?

Rules: At our table (I realize there will be disagreement here but I choose not to argue with DM - its quite easy for both these spells to power creep if DM is generous)

combat
1) Suggestion is strictly enforced, No harm can be caused by spell if target is at all aware that bad things can happen if they follow suggestion.
2) Phantasmal Force cannot actually restrain as it is an illusion, so red hot handcuffs will burn but the target can flinch and 'break them' (they still burn). I will likely get away with some effects like 'blind' but no 'poisoned' or 'fatigued' type effects. (Even blinding could possibly be limited as there is a lvl 2 blindness spell already)
3) Any suggestion will be limited in power, so its spell level will be considered. So no suggesting to a king that he give all his wealth to the poor for example. More subtly is required, perhaps "help feed the poor" might work.

In my context I am also interested how the subtle meta-magic interacts with each. I like both spells but really cant justify getting both.
Thank you for any advise and opinions.

[ImproperJustice]

This probably doesn’t help, but both are great.

Subtle Spell with Phantasmal Force means you can be sipping a nice cup of cocoa while the captain of the guard suddenly draws his weapon and begins shouting about how the people closest to him just became Zombies.

Subtle Spell with Suggestion means your Grima Wormtongue from LotR the Two Towers.

[NecessaryWeevil]

My primary DM is similarly conservative, but I've had the most luck with Suggestion. So far I've mostly used it to preempt hostile encounters or divide enemy forces. ("This is so-and-so, the legendary X of Y. Are you sure this is the fight you're looking for?" "Your buddies have this covered, so why not go find your enemies' mounts and liberate all the treasure adventurers are known to carry in their saddlebags?")

Phantasmal Force is mostly an underpowered damage-over-time spell that requires concentration.

[Stygofthedump]

Suggestion can be used defensively I guess... “stop your friend or he will get hurt”

I like that phantasmal force effectively takes out a combatant in combat. Could be used exactly like an major illusion except maybe better as only target sees it.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, this is a difficult question since both can be incredibly powerful. However, there is an important question you should answer. Does your DM follow Phantasmal Force's thing about people affected by the spell rationalizing all inconsistencies with the illusion?

If so, go with Phantasmal Force, because while it cannot bind someone it is extremely powerful with the right use. For example:

Make an illusion of your Fighter friend while they are fighting a big target. Now that target has two fighters, both hurting him, and provided your DM actually has things react to illusions a possible second target

Illusion of a hazard where they are, hopefully forcing them to move and potentially giving people attacks of opportunity

Illusion of a safe space to walk where in reality there is none

Honestly, there are more uses then just that as well. Hell, you could hide, and have an illusion of yourself casting spells that hurt a target

[Stygofthedump]

Yea I think those would fly. I like PF. Might try to squeeze both spells in but there seems to be some overlap.

[JellyPooga]

There's one deciding factor for me; Suggestion must explicitly be "reasonable". Phantasmal Force does not have this limitation. How creative are you feeling? One spell is an exercise in legalese and loopholes, the other is as unbound as your own imagination and the target creates his own loopholes and justifications.

[sophontteks]

I like suggestion over phantasmal force. Its not about the results, its about the process. You can have an incredible amount of control over someone when you are dictating their primary motive for up to the next 24 hours. Its espesially potent backed by charisma checks using the spell as leverage.

But, with subtle spell I prefer phantasmal force. Suggestion still requires you to say the suggestion. Phantasmal force is invisible. Its dramatic effects can be pinned on outside inflences, like angry gods or a curse, and this can be even stronger then suggestion in the right hands.

I mean, just consider doing a rather simple use of phantasmal force. The enemy believes they are being attacked by bees. You are doing 2d8 per turn and the enemy is being dissuaded from fighting. They would be much more concerned about these killer bees.

Another simple use. Instantly 'creating' any object. Documents, quest items, even missing people.

[Citan]

There can be only one! which is it?

Rules: At our table (I realize there will be disagreement here but I choose not to argue with DM - its quite easy for both these spells to power creep if DM is generous)

combat
1) Suggestion is strictly enforced, No harm can be caused by spell if target is at all aware that bad things can happen if they follow suggestion.
2) Phantasmal Force cannot actually restrain as it is an illusion, so red hot handcuffs will burn but the target can flinch and 'break them' (they still burn). I will likely get away with some effects like 'blind' but no 'poisoned' or 'fatigued' type effects. (Even blinding could possibly be limited as there is a lvl 2 blindness spell already)
3) Any suggestion will be limited in power, so its spell level will be considered. So no suggesting to a king that he give all his wealth to the poor for example. More subtly is required, perhaps "help feed the poor" might work.

In my context I am also interested how the subtle meta-magic interacts with each. I like both spells but really cant justify getting both.
Thank you for any advise and opinions.
Hi!
Considering you have Subtle, I'll obviously back Suggestion.
There are just so many more uses for Subtle Suggestions in and out of combat than there is for Subtle Phantasmal Force.

Few examples (actual wording to be made to respect the spell's requirements):

1. Negociating price of an item: depending on the relationship you have with the merchant, and your reputation, you could suggest an argument to reduce the price based on the fact you're so nice, or you helped the city, or you may introduce him to potentially big clients.

2. Shutting a guard off-round: suggest he has a *very* pressing need that has to be taken care off, and there is nobody around anyways so skipping 1mn is not a big deal.

3. Cutting endless discussions short: "this guys knows his topic better than me, I'll follow what he says".
Sorry, those are invalid except very niche build. I forget I always houserule that people with telepathic powers can Suggest "silently". :)

4. Making someone obey (giving you private information, signing a document).

5. Instilling false information that will induce bad decision-making (you face off enemy paty, fight occuring wuold be bad: you Suggest a blatant lie like "we have reinforcements bound to arrive in a few minutes" or "we have people hidden everywhere, you're surrounded". Of course, whether DM makes it "valid" (on failed save) depends on many kind of things, including if he had scouts checking not long before, but you get the idea: from what you can guess about how much enemy knows, influence the "facts" it bases decision on.

[Crgaston]

It's a tough call. Suggestion is probably more useful for taking an enemy out of the fight with one failed save. "We need to talk to you after the fight. Go stand over there until we're finished." or "Your friends have this handled. Why don't you go home?" Not to mention the obvious value out of combat.

But the coolness factor of PForce is pretty high. Having centipedes, beetles, ants and spiders emerge from the ground and swarm the target, crawling all over him, or any of the other clever suggestions mentioned already (I really like the duplication one). It is really dependent on how your DM handles illusions, though. If I were making an AL character I think Suggestion would win on that point alone.

What sort of character is it?

[Keravath]

Keep in mind that both of these can be twinned ... doubling the fun as long as you don't want to make it subtle :)

Personally, I would try and squeeze them both in.

[JellyPooga]

The problem I have with Suggestion is that it always comes from you, the PC. That limits the "reasonable" clause significantly. PF on the other hand, is created by and exists solely in the mind of the target. That opens up many more doors; e.g. Need to get by a guard? Give him the impression that his superior or commanding officer has turned up suddenly with new orders. You don't even need to know what that person lools like; the target justifies any discrepancy and fills in the blanks himself.

It's worth bearing in mind that while PF can deal damage, that's not its primary function. For misdirection and utility, Suggestion has too many caveats and requirements; mustn't be in combat, must be reasonable, must have a common language and be able to communicate (so Subtle Spell is useless if you're silenced or gagged). PF on the other hand handwaves all of this away and allows the most ludicrous of manipulation; "Ah! Look! It's your greatest fear!" without knowing what that is, or "Oh no! Who started that fire? Quick! Grab a bucket before the whole village goes up in flames!". You don't need to be reasonable when you can create unreasonable circumstances.

[Citan]

The problem I have with Suggestion is that it always comes from you, the PC. That limits the "reasonable" clause significantly. PF on the other hand, is created by and exists solely in the mind of the target. That opens up many more doors; e.g. Need to get by a guard? Give him the impression that his superior or commanding officer has turned up suddenly with new orders. You don't even need to know what that person lools like; the target justifies any discrepancy and fills in the blanks himself.

It's worth bearing in mind that while PF can deal damage, that's not its primary function. For misdirection and utility, Suggestion has too many caveats and requirements; mustn't be in combat, must be reasonable, must have a common language and be able to communicate (so Subtle Spell is useless if you're silenced or gagged). PF on the other hand handwaves all of this away and allows the most ludicrous of manipulation; "Ah! Look! It's your greatest fear!" without knowing what that is, or "Oh no! Who started that fire? Quick! Grab a bucket before the whole village goes up in flames!". You don't need to be reasonable when you can create unreasonable circumstances.
Certainly, the fact you have to "openly" interact with the target can be a chore at times.

On another hand, while Phantasmal Force is only seen from target, you can not predict with full accuracy how it will react. In particular, it could shout out about what it sees/hears, thus displaying the fact its behaviour is not "normal". Which could incite its friends to act on its behalf. Of course in combat this would actually be a big win (even more action economy waste on enemy side \o/). In social encounters, this could raise suspicion on the fact you "did something" even though you were Subtle.

And while the fact it can rationalize by itself any incoherence, I don't think it can be that wildly useful out of combat (except diversions for stealth, this I can imagine easily) unless you prepared things well enough to make that illusion count during the minute it lasts.

But I admit I lack first-hand experience with the latter, and I may be overrestrictive as a DM on what it can achieve.

To take a stupid example, you want to force someone to sign a contract (sorry, I love that example because my campaigns are often politics-heavy ;)). A direct Persuasion check is likely to fail because, while the contract is not bad in itself, the character facing party has a strong beef with them.

Using Suggestion, saying "I know you can put aside the past, because you know the deal is good for you" I would likely agree there is signature on failed save.

With Phantasmal Force? My gut idea right now would be creating the ghost of someone close enough to target to influence it. But, beyond the fact I'm not sure by RAW actual words would be alright (description saying "sound"), although I'd certainly allow one repeated word ("Sign, sign, sign" XD) I would personally require that the players actually know such a creature well enough to make an "accurately crude enough" image of it.

Like I said, I didn't use this spell often except for basic terrain hazards or such, so I'd appreciate if you think there would be a way for it to make work.

Or if, simply, those spells both shine in different sets of situations, and let's leave at that? ^^

Also, bits I missed on first reading your post, sorry ^^.
- Suggestion out of combat only: *absolutely not*. This is, of course, difficult to give proper examples of "in void", but you can perfectly suggest reasonable courses of actions to enemies. After all, there are *a lot* of unknown variables in a hostile encounter, meaning one has to count on probabilities and sometimes sheer intuition/luck to take decisions. You can either override that thoughts processing or simply provide a strong, albeit false, starting fact to derail that processing.
- Suggestion needing common languages: really not a big deal imo: most casters having Suggestion also have Comprehend Languages (houserule of mine: if you ritual cast it several hours per day to study a language, you end with language proficiency) and Tongues which is a 3rd level spell (ability to speak whatever language for an hour). It does raise the resource cost, but should only be a sporadic overcost (I mean, if you have to use Tongues whenever you want to use Suggestion, maybe you didn't pick the right proficiencies in the start XD). There are also the few telepathic features that include "understanding", especially in Warlock side.

And your uses of Phantasmal Force, honestly, seem a houserule interpretation to me: it is after all *you* who are creating the illusion, so just saying "it's your worst fear" without having even the slightest idea of what that could be? No go to me.
"Commanding officer": would probably work if you just saw once how those are clothed, because there is no way a soldier would know *every officer above him*. But if you said "I create *his* commanding officer", then you need to have seen him beforehand.

[sophontteks]

Why would it raise suspicion that the caster did anything with subtle? It could just as well be used to frame someone else entirely! You could frame someone as a witch and see them hanged before your eyes for something you were doing the whole time.

A creature may rouse its friends. A solid advantage out of combat. You cast on the leader and the minions will likely play along.

[JellyPooga]

Why would it raise suspicion that the caster did anything with subtle? It could just as well be used to frame someone else entirely! You could frame someone as a witch and see them hanged before your eyes for something you were doing the whole time.

A creature may rouse its friends. A solid advantage out of combat. You cast on the leader and the minions will likely play along.

Subtle isn't so effective with Suggestion because you, the caster, are still the one giving the suggestion. To use my example from before; giving a guard an order to report immediately to the guardhouse for reassignment isn't reasonable coming from some random mage, whether or not it appears that he's casting a spell or not. On the other hand, that same mage casting PF as he casually passes by and that guards' sergeant appearing out of nowhere (which is easily self justified by the guard as simply not noticing him turning up) and giving that same order, assuming the guard fails his save, it's a lot more credible and he has no reason to disobey that order.

[sophontteks]

Subtle isn't so effective with Suggestion because you, the caster, are still the one giving the suggestion. To use my example from before; giving a guard an order to report immediately to the guardhouse for reassignment isn't reasonable coming from some random mage, whether or not it appears that he's casting a spell or not. On the other hand, that same mage casting PF as he casually passes by and that guards' sergeant appearing out of nowhere (which is easily self justified by the guard as simply not noticing him turning up) and giving that same order, assuming the guard fails his save, it's a lot more credible and he has no reason to disobey that order.
That was a response to the citan's comments on Phantasmal Force...



On another hand, while Phantasmal Force is only seen from target, you can not predict with full accuracy how it will react. In particular, it could shout out about what it sees/hears, thus displaying the fact its behaviour is not "normal". Which could incite its friends to act on its behalf. Of course in combat this would actually be a big win (even more action economy waste on enemy side \o/). In social encounters, this could raise suspicion on the fact you "did something" even though you were Subtle.

I 100% agree with your assessment of the spells. Great write up BTW.

[JellyPooga]

That was a response to the citan's comments on Phantasmal Force...
Huh. I totally missed Citans' response. Sorry Citan! That's what I get for posting hastily from my phone while at work!


On another hand, while Phantasmal Force is only seen from target, you can not predict with full accuracy how it will react. [snip]
This is the biggest drawback of Phantasmal Force, I agree. It is more unpredictable, but it's often the case that a little unpredictability is the goal (as you mention yourself) or can even be accounted for. Expecting the unexpected is more favourable than not expecting it, after all! Preparation is key, I agree. Then again, what Wizard worth his spellbook isn't thinking ahead or prepared for the fallout of his own spells? The key difference is that Suggestion requires interaction with the target and Phantasmal Force does not. For stealth, as you allude, this is a massive point in PFs favour. For social circumstances, Suggestion will usually win out because nine times out of ten, you're already interacting with them. They both have clear strengths in different circumstances, but I think Phantasmal Force has a little more applicability to a wider range of circumstances. The lack of conditions on PF, alone, attests to that.


To take a stupid example, you want to force someone to sign a contract
Suggestion is, as you say, probably a better candidate for this particular scenario (which I'll point out is hardly one that's going to come up on a regular basis...jus' sayin' :smallwink:), but if I were going to use Phantasmal Force I would probably use it to try and misdirect, disorient or confuse the target, so they rush their decision or unwittingly go against their better judgement, rather than outright persuade directly with the spell. Bear in mind that Phantasmal Force
[creates] a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon of your choiceThat "visible phenomenon" leaves some leeway for making a contract appear more favourable; that it's already been signed by the targets peers, or includes a non-existent clause that they want on it. Or, thinking along the lines of your ghost, you could conjure a creature to distract the target; an NPC that cajoles the target into signing so they can get on with their other duties that day, perhaps, or gives the target the impression that some emergency requires their attention so they'd better hurry up and sign already. Not every idea is going to fly at every table, of course; it's the downfall of all Illusion spells that some GM's will be harder to convince than others that your illusion is legit or is going to have the desired end-result.


Also, bits I missed on first reading your post, sorry ^^.
- Suggestion out of combat only: *absolutely not*. This is, of course, difficult to give proper examples of "in void", but you can perfectly suggest reasonable courses of actions to enemies. After all, there are *a lot* of unknown variables in a hostile encounter, meaning one has to count on probabilities and sometimes sheer intuition/luck to take decisions. You can either override that thoughts processing or simply provide a strong, albeit false, starting fact to derail that processing.This is one you'll have a hard time of convincing me of. If you're in a scrap, pretty much anything your opponent says is automatically going in the "unreasonable" bin. Yes, there's some leeway for the likes of "Flee before your clearly superior foes!" type stuff, but anything along the lines of suggestions I've heard bandied around like "give this random dude all your weapons", "you really need to pee, better drop keks here and now to write your name in the snow" or even "that dude looks more dangerous, attack him instead of me" are not going to fly at my table; your foes words are, by default, going to be pretty unreasonable. That's why you're fighting and not talking. It'd take a very good suggestion to ever work in combat, IMO.


- Suggestion needing common languages: really not a big deal imo: most casters having Suggestion also have Comprehend Languages (houserule of mine: if you ritual cast it several hours per day to study a language, you end with language proficiency) and Tongues which is a 3rd level spell (ability to speak whatever language for an hour). It does raise the resource cost, but should only be a sporadic overcost (I mean, if you have to use Tongues whenever you want to use Suggestion, maybe you didn't pick the right proficiencies in the start XD). There are also the few telepathic features that include "understanding", especially in Warlock side.It's usually not a big deal; most things speak or understand Common, rendering even the use of Tongues a moot point (NB - Comprehend Languages will only work if cast by the target; it doesn't grant the ability to communicate, only understand and it's a "Target: Self" spell). That said, Suggestion is simply not going to work on most beasts, many monstrosities and aberrations and the occasional humanoid (setting dependent, of course). Not without additional resource expenditure, as you say. Not to mention anything that can't be Charmed (a list that includes, correct me if I'm wrong, all Undead and Constructs, among others). Phantasmal Force does not have the same issue (albeit, Undead and Constructs are immune, but that's hardly a point in Suggestions favour seeing how they're also immune to that).


And your uses of Phantasmal Force, honestly, seem a houserule interpretation to me: it is after all *you* who are creating the illusion, so just saying "it's your worst fear" without having even the slightest idea of what that could be? No go to me.
"Commanding officer": would probably work if you just saw once how those are clothed, because there is no way a soldier would know *every officer above him*. But if you said "I create *his* commanding officer", then you need to have seen him beforehand.That's fair; as has been discussed, both spells are going to be very GM dependent and I may have taken a few liberties with the whole "worst fear" thing (though having said that, Phantasmal Force's big brother Phantasmal Killer does exactly that, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to allow a little freedom in that area). I'll bring up the preparation thing again, though; with a little research, such as what might motivate a potential target, Phantasmal Force becomes much more flexible and because it auto-adjusts to the targets psyche it's more flexible still.

I think the spells are both good, don't get me wrong. I just think many people attribute more flexibility to Suggestion than it's supposed to have. It's a spell that has been left intentionally vague, to give it at least decent utility without being trash (see Enthrall for how to nix a spell into oblivion with too many clauses), but it's also a spell that has a particular niche in social scenes. Phantasmal Force is also intentionally vague, but it doesn't have a specific niche. That's why I think Suggestion is strictly speaking more powerful; it's less applicable.

If I can shout out one last little argument why Phantasmal Force could be considered better; it targets Intelligence Saves while Suggestion targets the slightly more resisted Wisdom. Not a big deal, but it makes Phantasmal Force particularly effective against a lot of foes; Beasts and many Monstrosities typically have very low Int, as do a lot of Giants and "bestial" Humanoids like Orcs and Gnolls. Very few creatures have an actively poor Wisdom (i.e. 7 or lower). That makes the "hit" rate of Phantasmal Force significantly better.

[Stygofthedump]

There's one deciding factor for me; Suggestion must explicitly be "reasonable". Phantasmal Force does not have this limitation. How creative are you feeling? One spell is an exercise in legalese and loopholes, the other is as unbound as your own imagination and the target creates his own loopholes and justifications.

nice summary

[NaughtyTiger]

INT is a dump stat.
even amongst monsters. (500 out of 700 monsters have lower intelligence than wisdom)

more monsters are immune to charm than have blindsight

[Stygofthedump]

Thanks for all your feedback
I'm going to get PF as the character can use stealth, too good an opening move to ignore. Also covers some illusion area albeit only for one target.
FYI Noble/Draconic bloodline with subtle/twin. There is a bard so perhaps suggestion can be his baby.
The trouble is that without subtle the target is highly likely to figure out that contract they signed was compelled by magic.
so many good lvl 2 spells..

[Citan]

Suggestion is, as you say, probably a better candidate for this particular scenario (which I'll point out is hardly one that's going to come up on a regular basis...jus' sayin' :smallwink:), but if I were going to use Phantasmal Force I would probably use it to try and misdirect, disorient or confuse the target, so they rush their decision or unwittingly go against their better judgement, rather than outright persuade directly with the spell. Bear in mind that Phantasmal Force That "visible phenomenon" leaves some leeway for making a contract appear more favourable; that it's already been signed by the targets peers, or includes a non-existent clause that they want on it. Or, thinking along the lines of your ghost, you could conjure a creature to distract the target; an NPC that cajoles the target into signing so they can get on with their other duties that day, perhaps, or gives the target the impression that some emergency requires their attention so they'd better hurry up and sign already. Not every idea is going to fly at every table, of course; it's the downfall of all Illusion spells that some GM's will be harder to convince than others that your illusion is legit or is going to have the desired end-result.

Thanks for these ideas. Indeed didn't think about "forging" the paper itself, this one could probably work well (supposing you know the current terms and the "best for opponent" terms, but it seems logical enough for the context provided).

Note about Comprehend Languages: you read too fast ;) I was not saying using it to undersstand directly others, but using it as a way of self-teaching which I would personally as a DM completely agree to lead to proficiency acquisition in a few weeks/months depending on how much time you spent on it.


This is one you'll have a hard time of convincing me of. If you're in a scrap, pretty much anything your opponent says is automatically going in the "unreasonable" bin. Yes, there's some leeway for the likes of "Flee before your clearly superior foes!" type stuff, but anything along the lines of suggestions I've heard bandied around like "give this random dude all your weapons", "you really need to pee, better drop keks here and now to write your name in the snow" or even "that dude looks more dangerous, attack him instead of me" are not going to fly at my table; your foes words are, by default, going to be pretty unreasonable. That's why you're fighting and not talking. It'd take a very good suggestion to ever work in combat, IMO.

Could you plz read back my "previous previous" comment and tell me your opinion about the (admitedly very crude) example I gave?
Or, like I did, give me one example from your past experiences of situations looking unfavorable to you, so I can see whether there is something workable from Suggestion? :)

Otherwise...
- IMO the argument about non working on beasts is fair but of limited impact: if really you expect to face/interact with lots of beasts, grasping Speak With Animals is not hard and a fair investmen.
- However the argument about charm immunity is indeed a strong one. While still a YMMV thing, I agree that whatevr kind of campaign you play you are bound to interact with a few, or many (in some settings) of them. :)

Finally, the argument on INT > WIS is certainly true. I'd like to nuance it in three bits.
a) I think we can agree it's a truely gamist argument. I don't see why people "inworld" would know that there are so many "unintelligent" creatures around the world. Except when it comes to creatures you would actually have a high chance to know per background/class (ex Clerics, I admit would know enough about Fiends/Undead to be aware of their weakness).

b) Phantasmal Force targets an INT check. I'm honestly not sure there would really be a way to make it work, but theorically allies could Help the target provided they can understand if/when the afflicted creature tries to "see through".
More generally, there are a few things that can help a check roll.
Although most are in PC-realm to be fair, so let's stop at that instead of opening the NPC as PC debate. XD

c) Back to my previous point, which is certainly hard to debate on "in void", but considering the target is the only one to see the illusion, you may often end with it interacting in a way that looks unreasonable to others.
While I agree with Sopphonteks that close bystanders would not necessarily link that strange behaviour to you (or your party), as soon as they decide this behaviour is unnatural they will try to stop it: after trying, to no avail, the classics "punch friend out of dreams", they will certainly guess it's magic and take countermeasures, namely Dispel Magic (or hit everyone in case this is a concentration effect XD).

Whereas Suggestion places the difficulty beforehand, as in "how to verbalize it in an innocent way" but after that, bystanders will consider that the target's choice to follow what you said was rational.

So imo it's more about completementary spells than opposing. ;)

[TheYell]

Subtle isn't so effective with Suggestion because you, the caster, are still the one giving the suggestion. To use my example from before; giving a guard an order to report immediately to the guardhouse for reassignment isn't reasonable coming from some random mage, whether or not it appears that he's casting a spell or not.

I have Suggested the guard needs to report in person to seek reinforcement against an enchanting wizard.

[JellyPooga]

Could you plz read back my "previous previous" commentHmm..."Previous previous"?...I take it you mean this one;
5. Instilling false information that will induce bad decision-making (you face off enemy paty, fight occuring wuold be bad: you Suggest a blatant lie like "we have reinforcements bound to arrive in a few minutes" or "we have people hidden everywhere, you're surrounded". Of course, whether DM makes it "valid" (on failed save) depends on many kind of things, including if he had scouts checking not long before, but you get the idea: from what you can guess about how much enemy knows, influence the "facts" it bases decision on.These are the kind of "flee from your clearly superior enemy" suggestions that I would consider legit. As you mention, there may be mitigating circumstances like "no you're not/don't/haven't" where the foe knows for sure that the suggestion in false, but those are going to be a case-by-case judgement of whether it's reasonable or not. I will mention that you can achieve similar results using Phantasmal Force by summoning an illusory enemy (up to 10ft tall at that; could be pretty imposing) and doing it the old fashioned way (i.e. saying it, not Suggesting it), but using the Enchantment will obviously have a more reliable outcome (assuming a failed Save). Both have the drawback of targeting only one enemy, of course.


- IMO the argument about non working on beasts is fair but of limited impact: if really you expect to face/interact with lots of beasts, grasping Speak With Animals is not hard and a fair investmen.I'll add that Animal Friendship is probably a better investment than Speak with Animals. Yes, you can cast SwA followed by Suggestion, but that's a high investment for the end result. Animal Friendship might only Charm the target, but it doesn't take Concentration, lasts 24 hours and is only one level 1 slot. It's not just beasts (although they are a ubiquitous example); as I mentioned many Monstrosities have decidedly low Int as well and would not be affected by SwA or Animal Friendship equally. To really be affecting the likes of Giants and Monstrosities with Enchantments, you're looking at waiting until you can grab the likes of Hold Monster and other higher-tier spells, which you won't get until at least level 9. Illusions are peculiarly unbound in this regard, by comparison.


Finally, the argument on INT > WIS is certainly true. I'd like to nuance it in three bits.
a) I think we can agree it's a truely gamist argument.Yup! Won't disagree there :smallwink:.


b) Phantasmal Force targets an INT check.Clarification; Phantasmal Force targets an Int Save to resist it initially, but as an Action you can make an Int (Investigation) check to end it. This is worse than Suggestion, for which one failed Save means up to 8 hours of effect, granted, but Suggestion does also have the "ends if you or an ally attacks the target" clause working against it.


So imo it's more about completementary spells than opposing. ;)On the whole I would tend to agree. If forced to choose, I'd take Phantasmal Force for it's greater versatility and "hit" rate, not to mention a more direct applicability in combat. I would also tend to grab PF before Suggestion, given that at lower levels a Rogue or Bard with Expertise in Persuasion or Intimidation can probably achieve much the same results as any Suggestion might (not so much at higher levels when foes are generally more formidable and resistant to mundane attempts to sway their opinion; not just monsters, but with higher level comes higher ranked NPC's; e.g. instead of mayors and merchants, you're dealing with generals and kings) and further that at those lower levels, using Suggestion comes with a relatively high cost, especially if being cast Subtly, compared to attempting the same with Skills. At higher levels, using a 2nd level slot is not so great an investment, so is more reasonable compared to skill use, given the greater potential effect you can get out of it.

[sophontteks]

It says you can make an INT check vs. phantasmal force, but it also says that the spell is so real that the victim will rationalize whatever they experience. So in practice they are not making this save unless their buddies are all giving them a big intervention. Without that there is just nothing available for them to think they need to make the check at all.

So, in practice, no phantasmal force is a single int save.

[Snowbluff]

more monsters are immune to charm than have blindsight

I would argue that Phantasmal force defeats Blindsight for a variety of reasons.
1) It's an illusion of unknown depth, which is to say they might feel the heat/vibrations of the illusion
2) Assuming what they are seeing and what they are sensing with blindsight conflict, they will rationalize it without further investigation.

This is why I say PF tends to be a little better. It's less easy to get around compared to suggestion.

[Tanarii]

"Visible phenomena" doesn't mean "add a line of text to a contract". It means fire, fog, rain, smoke, a flash of light.

Nor, like many illusion spells, can making the creature see something make other stuff invisible, although it can hide it. So if there is a real contract in front of the creature, you can make there appear to be another page on top of it. But you can't make the real contract cease to be there.

[Snowbluff]

"Visible phenomena" doesn't mean "add a line of text to a contract". It means fire, fog, rain, smoke, a flash of light. I googled the definition phenomenon. It can mean all of those things, including the things you erroneously said it can't be.

[Stygofthedump]

Minor illusion for that trick instead of using lvl2 slot

[TWrecks]

I found this discussion on Phantasmal Force to be helpful... Also showed it to my DM before taking the spell to see what his take on it was.

Ok - I can’t post the link since I just joined so google “phantasmal force knock prone” and check out the discussion on rpg stacks.

My two lvl 2 spells at Bard 3 are going to be Suggestion and P.Force. Suggestion has fantastic social use and against anything that speaks common you could potentially convince to turn on it’s allies. Force is a rare int save that should get less continual saves than Hideous Laughter, can do a little damage, and can be used more creatively.

Heat Metal is the only their contender for those two with Blind / Deaf taking the eventual last slot - no concentration, con save, but scales decent with higher spell slots.

[TWrecks]

It says you can make an INT check vs. phantasmal force, but it also says that the spell is so real that the victim will rationalize whatever they experience. So in practice they are not making this save unless their buddies are all giving them a big intervention. Without that there is just nothing available for them to think they need to make the check at all.

So, in practice, no phantasmal force is a single int save.

My DM and I discussed the spell... We agreed that clever use could cause conditions like blindness or prone but the illusion having more opportunity to be interacted with in this manner would give reasonably intelligent beings maybe another int save. Seemed fair.

[sophontteks]

My DM and I discussed the spell... We agreed that clever use could cause conditions like blindness or prone but the illusion having more opportunity to be interacted with in this manner would give reasonably intelligent beings maybe another int save. Seemed fair.
I'm sure you know this, but just to be sure. They shouldn't get another int save, but they could make an int ability check on their turn as an action, which I think is fair for something like blindness.

If its a save, its probably not worthwhile. Giving the target 2 saves significantly decreases the chance of the single target spell working. The risk of wasting your turn is just too high for a single-target concentration spell.

[TWrecks]

Ya, it would have to take its action. The ability for the spell to cause conditions like blind / deaf / prone etc is largely a DM discretion.

A simple illusion like the target thinking it’s on fire wouldn’t cause any additional conditions and be harder for the target for to interact with the spell. Leading to less reasons for an intelligent creature to ever take an action to do another save.

But, a more complex illusion that probes / blinds / silences (say tentacles growing from the skin that wrap / bind / and erm start to enter orifices) could potentially give the target more opportunity to interact with the spell. Thus maybe giving more cause to investigate on a later turn leading to another save role.

This was kinda our ruling. It allows for the spell to be used in its most powerful application of the spell description while having reasonable application of the clause in the description that says the target can take its action to investigate leading to another save.

I’ve heard horror stories of DMs reading that line to assume they get a roll every round which makes the spell pretty much no better than Hideous Laughter. Worse if no conditions ever get applied.