(what if) Redcloak and Xykon would make great gate guardians

[FriendComputer]

Hear me out...this is just a crazy idea that popped into my head this morning:

Let's say R and X make it to the last gate and manage to kill off all the guardians well before the oots gets there.

buuuuut.... in doing so trip an artifact "omni save trap" which triggers on the death of the last guardian.

let's say it's a combo divination info dump and abjurative trap that forces you into becoming the new guardians.

eternal life is granted - and if willing, freedom to leave in exchange for instant teleportation back to defend the gate etc.

R would probably accept and be a willing guardian, gaining his freedom. X would never accept, forever trapped l and forced into servitude.

So, now we would be left in a morally grey area where the heroes burst onto the scene to slay the bad guys who are... now protecting the gate. forever.

This would thwart Roys quest to avenge his jerk dad - But Roy has outgrown this quest any way. X would be forever imprisoned and R would make for an interesting dynamic I the world, with the goblin race probably being tasked by their new living God to become akin to the SG.

TDLR: nobody ever said gate guardians had to be "good guys"

[NerdyKris]

Given that Thor just mentioned a "once in eternity chance" to fix the problem once and for all, I don't think the story is going to come down to just sealing the gates again and the tagline "and nobody ever tried to open them again". Just resetting things to the previous status quo just results in the same thing happening again later. The whole comic exists because that didn't work.

[Peelee]

Why would Redcloak accept? Assuming he did, why would Xykon not kill Redcloak for accepting? Assuming he did not, why would they not continue the ritual?

[FriendComputer]

R and X seem to barely be a blip on Thors radar, so them becoming guardians (or not) probably won't change things at this point.

The ending of the snarl problem doesn't necessarily require the destruction of the last gate. in fact, it might require keeping it safe until the snarl can be dealt with.

I'm just spit balling on what would make more of an interesting dynamic than "find the bad guy, kill the bad guy".
********

Redcloak. He's pragmatic and anything but nilhistic. If given the option to keep the world safe and live forever (more along the lines of never age, but you can still for through misadventure) while furthering his goblin kind / dark one agenda... he'd probably willingly take it in a heart beat.

********

edit: I think I wasn't totally clear. the trap forces a compulsion to protect the gate. think an artifact level "curse " that has an upside of give yourself over to protecting the gate rather than being forced grudgingly to do it.

[NerdyKris]

So your theory is essentially "What if we just changed the bad guy's minds using magic?"

[Aveline]

So your theory is essentially "What if we just changed the bad guy's minds using magic?"

It's happened before, no? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

[Kish]

Yeah, but somehow I think even if Xykon the lich had his personality overwritten with the drastically different personality demonstrated by Xykon the living sorcerer, he would not become willing to guard a gate for eternity.

To address the thread seriously, I suspect the ending of the comic will have a resolution a little more permanent than "the next villain to try to use or unseal the Gates will have to deal with the previous scheme's primary actors, if they go after one particular Gate that is."

If the temptation for Redcloak is supposed to be immortality, he already seems to have that from the Crimson Mantle; he's remained a young adult goblin for a very long time.

[FriendComputer]

nobody is having any personality overwritten.

think of it like the holy frail from Indiana Jones... if you are an unwilling guardian, you can't leave the temple /gate/grounds or else bad things happen.

this would probably make Xykon extremely pissed off and even more surly.

Redcloak might be able to realize that breaking the last gate would be even worse than imagined (no next reincarnation or new world for eaten souls) and might eventually willingly be a guardian. this would allow him to wander freely but be teleported back if the gate was in trouble.

servitude is a compulsion when resisted, with a very big stick to dissuade leaving.

I'm not saying this even makes sense for where the story is going, it would just be an option. having a powerful ward for a world ending snarl seems appropriate, regardless of how things are going to play out.

[woweedd]

nobody is having any personality overwritten.

think of it like the holy frail from Indiana Jones... if you are an unwilling guardian, you can't leave the temple /gate/grounds or else bad things happen.

this would probably make Xykon extremely pissed off and even more surly.

Redcloak might be able to realize that breaking the last gate would be even worse than imagined (no next reincarnation or new world for eaten souls) and might eventually willingly be a guardian. this would allow him to wander freely but be teleported back if the gate was in trouble.

servitude is a compulsion when resisted, with a very big stick to dissuade leaving.

I'm not saying this even makes sense for where the story is going, it would just be an option. having a powerful ward for a world ending snarl seems appropriate, regardless of how things are going to play out.
Redcloak is explicitly willing to let this world be consumed by The Snarl, aso long as it increases the possibility of the goblinoids getting a better deal in whatever comes next.

[FriendComputer]

yes...and we just learned that there is no "next" if the snarl eats the world. that info, if given to him, might change his mind.

[Emanick]

yes...and we just learned that there is no "next" if the snarl eats the world. that info, if given to him, might change his mind.

We didn't learn this. The gods can always make another world.

[woweedd]

yes...and we just learned that there is no "next" if the snarl eats the world. that info, if given to him, might change his mind.
By "next", I meant the next world. Redcloak, explicitly, doesn't care whether he gets to see a better world for goblins, as long as it happens.

[Prinygod]

By "next", I meant the next world. Redcloak, explicitly, doesn't care whether he gets to see a better world for goblins, as long as it happens.
Not to support tc's idea, but if Redcloak may think differently if he finds out that the next world might not have Goblin's based on what we recently learned. Nor perhaps the Dark one, considering we have yet to see any concession food deities.

[FriendComputer]

^ this.


Also, we do know the snarl devours souls. It's why the gods choose to "save" worlds and souls by destroying them before the snarl does.

[woweedd]

^ this.


Also, we do know the snarl devours souls. It's why the gods choose to "save" worlds and souls by destroying them before the snarl does.
He knows The Snarl devours souls. He doesn't give a crap about it. He doesn't care what happens to him , or would even consider the soul-death of his fellow goblins an acceptable sacrifice, so long as it benefits purely hypothetical future goblinoids.

[Jasdoif]

He knows The Snarl devours souls. He doesn't give a crap about it. He doesn't care what happens to him , or would even consider the soul-death of his fellow goblins an acceptable sacrifice, so long as it benefits purely hypothetical future goblinoids.Or rather, so long as it lets Redcloak not feel quite so bad about murdering his little brother in cold blood. There is a great deal of overlap with "benefiting purely hypothetical future goblinoids"...but that's still just "nice to have". Redcloak also wants to benefit actually existing present goblinoids, after all, and he's absolutely fine with goblinoid deaths that further his goal.

Which I guess is a long way of saying Redcloak would never accept preserving the status quo.

[Flame of Anor]

It's happened before, no? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

Entirely different. That was the culmination of Durkon's careful plan to sabotage Greg, which happened to be carried out with magic. The magic served as a means to tell a story about characters. If the main bad guys suddenly had their purpose rewritten without a proper, character-driven build-up, that would be an unsatisfying ass pull.

[King of Nowhere]

So, after following the story of the main characters and their struggle against the villains for two decades, the villains will be randomly offed by a trap set by somebody who only appeared briefly in flashbacks. Nothing the main characters did mattered much in regard to the plot.

no, I don't think that would be good storytelling.

[SlashDash]

Xykon is going to be destroyed for good by the end of the story. No Ifs on that what so ever.

Even more so, we have so many obvious foreshadowing that Redcloak and Xykon are going to turn on each other the thought of them doing anything together for all eternity is absurd.


Why would Redcloak accept?
How to get Redcloak to accept? Easy.

The last gate is now the new capital of Gobtoppia. They'll protect the gate the exact same way that Azure city did on Soon's gate, this would force the rest of the world to accept them as a nation in its own right because if anyone attacks them, they have a doomsday weapon they can set off and nobody would piss them off - which is far more terrifying than Xykon ever was.

Heck, the northern dwarves are pretty much putty in their hands cause otherwise they are going straight to Hel.

The difference this time around, is that previously, the gods kept the gates a secret and so did the order of the scribbles.

This time around, they'll flat out tell about the Snarl to anyone who would listen and there will be a universal pact of peace to protect it - as everyone know exactly what is at stakes.


EDIT :

While I don't know if they'll keep the last gate, move it or whatever, the fact that the order will make a deal with Redcloak is very likely.

The theme of the story is disagreements. The Snarl was created because the gods argued among themselves. The Scribbles argued among themselves.

It makes sense that the ending would be a form of peace treaty where everyone have some sort of agreement.

[Peelee]

How to get Redcloak to accept? Easy.

The last gate is now the new capital of Gobtoppia. They'll protect the gate the exact same way that Azure city did on Soon's gate, this would force the rest of the world to accept them as a nation in its own right because if anyone attacks them, they have a doomsday weapon they can set off and nobody would piss them off - which is far more terrifying than Xykon ever was.

So getting the largest and most successful goblin city ever to abandon its fortified city surrounded by fertile fields, rivers, and an ocean, its placement as a major trade hub and port, and all the commercial, civilian, and strategic advantages it has, to relocate to the frozen north which has none of these things. Effectively resetting them to their former settlement, but without the infrastructure they had built up to support it. All solely to exert control over a device that would destroy them just as much as it suits anyone else.

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and question your definition of "easy."

[Kish]

While I don't know if they'll keep the last gate, move it or whatever, the fact that the order will make a deal with Redcloak is very likely.

The theme of the story is disagreements. The Snarl was created because the gods argued among themselves. The Scribbles argued among themselves.

It makes sense that the ending would be a form of peace treaty where everyone have some sort of agreement.
Somehow, I suspect "the Order of the Scribble needed to make a peace treaty with the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple" is a minority perspective.

[SlashDash]

After the last strip, heck yeah the Redcloak makes an alliance with the order is pretty much a given.

Whatever the ending may be, Hinjo and goblins will make peace. Whether Redcloak will be alive or someone else (Jirix?) will do the deal.


<SNIP>
Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and question your definition of "easy."
You're forgetting that Red Cloak's ritual moves the gate... They can move the gate to Gobtoppia instead of their original plan to move it to the gods plane.

Either way, the point is that Redcloak is the type of evil that's "ends justify the means". And what he wants isn't that far fetched for good aligned characters to give him.

Sure, he also wants to torture paladins and azure city for all they did to him, but it's a reasonable sacrifice. The Dark One only wanted to have a chat with the gods while he has the upper hand this time around - making him a guardian of the last gate gives him that power.


Somehow, I suspect "the Order of the Scribble needed to make a peace treaty with the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple" is a minority perspective.
I have to admit I didn't understand what you're saying.

[woweedd]

After the last strip, heck yeah the Redcloak makes an alliance with the order is pretty much a given.

Whatever the ending may be, Hinjo and goblins will make peace. Whether Redcloak will be alive or someone else (Jirix?) will do the deal.


You're forgetting that Red Cloak's ritual moves the gate... They can move the gate to Gobtoppia instead of their original plan to move it to the gods plane.

Either way, the point is that Redcloak is the type of evil that's "ends justify the means". And what he wants isn't that far fetched for good aligned characters to give him.

Sure, he also wants to torture paladins and azure city for all they did to him, but it's a reasonable sacrifice. The Dark One only wanted to have a chat with the gods while he has the upper hand this time around - making him a guardian of the last gate gives him that power.


I have to admit I didn't understand what you're saying.
The ritual doesn't just move the gate, it moves the Gate according to The Dark One's wishes, and his plan is to use it as blackmail. Meaning he needs to move it somewhere where it could do actual harm to the other Gods.

[SlashDash]

The ritual doesn't just move the gate, it moves the Gate according to The Dark One's wishes, and his plan is to use it as blackmail. Meaning he needs to move it somewhere where it could do actual harm to the other Gods.
I'm facepalming here...

People don't seem to understand that characters have plans not for the sake of having plans but to accomplish certain goals.

The dark one doesn't want to kill other gods, he wants to negotiate things while having the upper hand.

If people give in to his demands, what is the problem?!?

If the gods already surrender for his demands or if he agrees to settle things down a bit (i.e : Goblins have equal rights but not the upper hand) then he gets what he wants and just has to keep the threat alive.

It's the same as having a nuclear weapon and threatening other people with it.

If they call your bluff, you need to blow it up to prove you have it and threaten with additional blasts in the future.

If they don't call your bluff and settle for your demands you don't need to blow anything up. Just make sure that everyone know you can do it when you wish.

So if there is some form of peace treaty with the other gods and their followers, the Dark One can move the gate to Gobtopia. It will be exactly like in Azure City and if he wants to, he can move it a second time.

Yes, finding an arcane caster might be an issue, lord knows Red Cloak would have gotten rid of Xykon if he had better options, but I'm sure they can manage that somehow. Especially if Gobtoppia will open a wizard academy.

[Peelee]

Just realized I never responded to this, sorry.


You're forgetting that Red Cloak's ritual moves the gate... They can move the gate to Gobtoppia

Unless Gobbotopia is on another plane, no he can't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

[Deliverance]

After the last strip, heck yeah the Redcloak makes an alliance with the order is pretty much a given.

There would certainly be a sense of closure to if the comic ended that, a full circle from Redcloak's start in Start of Darkness. And it may very well be what the Giant is going for.

But there are other options, one being that the Dark One cuts out the middle man. :p

We know he's communicated with the other gods before without the need for a high level cleric, so let's rather say that "after the last strip, the Dark One making an alliance of convenience with the other gods in return for concessions is pretty much a given", something that might include Redcloak making an alliance with the order or might follow Redcloak's attempt to get control of the Snarl failing or Redcloak's death.. or any other of options ... but even that may be going too far.

...because remember what Blackwing saw within the rift?

We have been given reason to believe that the Snarl may in some way no longer be exactly what it was originally described to us as being, which is apparently what the Gods still consider it to be, so it is possible that the "build a better prison" strategy the Gods have been pursuing for quite some time now, and that Thor appears to be hoping to improve on with an additional colour, is addressing the wrong problem.


While not married to the idea, I can't say I'd be surprised if we end up with Redcloak and Xykon defeated by the OOTS with MITD assist and the last gate blown up (with fiends meddling, of course), and everything saved in the nick of time by the three pantheons and the dark one managing a peaceful resolution with the Snarl (possibly untangling it) based on information and advice from the OOTS.

[woweedd]

There would certainly be a sense of closure to if the comic ended that, a full circle from Redcloak's start in Start of Darkness. And it may very well be what the Giant is going for.

But there are other options, one being that the Dark One cuts out the middle man. :p

We know he's communicated with the other gods before without the need for a high level cleric, so let's rather say that "after the last strip, the Dark One making an alliance of convenience with the other gods in return for concessions is pretty much a given", something that might include Redcloak making an alliance with the order or might follow Redcloak's attempt to get control of the Snarl failing or Redcloak's death.. or any other of options ... but even that may be going too far.

...because remember what Blackwing saw within the rift?

We have been given reason to believe that the Snarl may in some way no longer be exactly what it was originally described to us as being, which is apparently what the Gods still consider it to be, so it is possible that the "build a better prison" strategy the Gods have been pursuing for quite some time now, and that Thor appears to be hoping to improve on with an additional colour, is addressing the wrong problem.

While not married to the idea, I can't say I'd be surprised if we end up with Redcloak and Xykon defeated by the OOTS with MITD assist and the last gate blown up (with fiends meddling, of course), and everything saved in the nick of time by the three pantheons and the dark one managing a peaceful resolution with the Snarl (possibly untangling it) based on information and advice from the OOTS.
Um, last I checked, Redcloak is a tragic protagonist in SOD, an, initially, good man laid low by the same qualities that fueled his goodness. Namely, his determination to fulfill his plan gets twisted into a sunk cost fallacy. Tragic heroes don't get happy endings. It's in the name, and there's usually a sense of inevitability to boot. Redcloak's fate has been sealed ever since he murdered Right Eye, arguably, ever since he made the decision to team up with Xykon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he made the decision to turn Xykon into a lich rather then abandon him to die in the forest.

Err... they were both trapped in a cave, without access to magical power due to a viral infection. RC no more could "abandon" him at that point than Xykon could him.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Err... they were both trapped in a cave, without access to magical power due to a viral infection. RC no more could "abandon" him at that point than Xykon could him.

Grey Wolf
True. I'll edit it.

[hamishspence]

Err... they were both trapped in a cave, without access to magical power due to a viral infection.

Redcloak retained all his clerical casting due to the cloak. While not high enough in level to cast Heal, he was able to create Xykon's phylactery (creating phylacteries requires a caster level of 11+). Oddly, the average 11th level cleric can cast Heal, since it's only a 6th level spell. Maybe he had a caster level booster?

Right Eye suggests blasting out. Redcloak response with "you're overestimating the destructive power of clerical magic" But if he'd filled his arsenal with destructive spells and cast them every day for some time, it might have been doable.

[Kish]

Given that Rich already handwaved someone else being able to make Xykon's phylactery, I suspect he considered Xykon's level, not proto-Redcloak's, the one that had to be 11 or higher.