Souls and being good or evil

[Maxilian]

Hello, A while ago, we were talking in a thread about Gods, souls and morality (the thread was Good aligned BBEG), i remember i mentioned how i think that the Gods that "created" the Harpies are "evil" as they created a plague in the world yada yada (I was wrong, the harpies were created by the Gods magic, but not by their will), but someone mentioned:

As BoVD puts it:


"While harming one's enemies physically is not inherently villainous, harming their souls is always evil. Only the foulest of villains could actually want to cause pain to another creature's eternal aspect. Creatures without corrupt hearts simply dispatch their foes quickly, believing that sending a villain off to the justice of the afterlife is punishment enough."

But this can't be canon anymore, if destroying souls is intrisically evil, then a good blessed creature (or with holy anything) that kills any Lemure in the any of the Hells is doing evil.

For example: Would destroying Goblins souls be actually evil? i mean... Goblins dread death, not because of death itself, but what waits for them after death, the promise of eternal slavery under the god that created them, so would it be evil to "give them eternal peace"? or wouldn't it be evil to condemn them to such fate knowingly?

[MoiMagnus]

Would destroying Goblins souls be actually evil? i mean... Goblins dread death, not because of death itself, but what waits for them after death, the promise of eternal slavery under the god that created them, so would it be evil to "give them eternal peace"? or wouldn't it be evil to condemn them to such fate knowingly?

Is it evil to kill a slave just because its master torture him? (and because you consider death is better than horrible life)
Unless being actively asked by the slave to do so, that's still kind of bad.
And to go back to the case of Goblins:
If one day, the god of goblins is killed (for example by a group of heroes), it will free all the goblins and give them an eternity of peace, except for those who's soul were destroyed...

To the initial question "why the heck is killing souls so evil?", I will answer this:
In D&D universe, almost everything is reversible:
+ Death is reversible
+ Memories can be erased or recovered
+ Most resources are in infinite quantity
...
One of the few thing that cannot be reversed is soul destruction. Thus it is infinitely more evil than any evil that can be reversed.
Moreover, assuming redemption is accessible to everyone (which is setting dependent), you never know if this soul could make some good at some point of their infinite existence.

[Unoriginal]

A Lemure isn't literally a soul, the same way that a sword isn't the same thing than the steel ingot that was used to create it. You can still refer to a sword as "steel", though.

Lemures are formerly souls, but they put in the Styx, erasing their selves, and then irremediably bound to the structure of the Nine Hells. Destroying them is not like destroying a soul (and arguably the Hells already did that).


Also, since you're bringing up the Mordenkainen's, this same book also indicates that destroying souls is one of the few genuine taboos most Demons have. Of course some Demons do it anyway, but the majority consider those awful pariahs.

So yeah, destroying souls mean even demons have more standards than you.

[Maxilian]

A Lemure isn't literally a soul, the same way that a sword isn't the same thing than the steel ingot that was used to create it. You can still refer to a sword as "steel", though.

Lemures are formerly souls, but they put in the Styx, erasing their selves, and then irremediably bound to the structure of the Nine Hells. Destroying them is not like destroying a soul (and arguably the Hells already did that).


They are literally described as mortal soul warped by evil and banished to the Nine Hells"



Also, since you're bringing up the Mordenkainen's, this same book also indicates that destroying souls is one of the few genuine taboos most Demons have. Of course some Demons do it anyway, but the majority consider those awful pariahs.

So yeah, destroying souls mean even demons have more standards than you.

That's irrelevant, they see it as bad cause its like burning gold and precious gems to the Dwarfs. (they use it for everything, money, recharge or healing, or just to get more power)

[Naanomi]

Souls are something very vital to the structure and purpose of the Great Wheel as a whole... in many ways the Great Wheel's overall design is a giant factory to create souls, house them in bodies to help rarefy and sort them, and then put them in eternal storage places once the process is finished. Disrupting that path of Souls is something that forces, Good and Evil, just don't abide by... everyone was pissed with Ashardalon tried to take over the Well of Souls; no one stands by if a God tries to become the patron of Unborn Souls... it is a 'crime against reality' level crime that gets everyone on the same page the same way messing around with the Far Realm tends to be

[Unoriginal]

They are literally described as mortal soul warped by evil and banished to the Nine Hells"

Which makes them no longer souls. You've just repeated what I said.

That's why their creature type is Fiend, not Undead.




That's irrelevant, they see it as bad cause its like burning gold and precious gems to the Dwarfs. (they use it for everything, money, recharge or healing, or just to get more power)

No, they do not do that, and it's not the reason why they see it as bad.

[Maxilian]

Is it evil to kill a slave just because its master torture him? (and because you consider death is better than horrible life)
Unless being actively asked by the slave to do so, that's still kind of bad.
And to go back to the case of Goblins:
If one day, the god of goblins is killed (for example by a group of heroes), it will free all the goblins and give them an eternity of peace, except for those who's soul were destroyed...

To the initial question "why the heck is killing souls so evil?", I will answer this:
In D&D universe, almost everything is reversible:
+ Death is reversible
+ Memories can be erased or recovered
+ Most resources are in infinite quantity
...
One of the few thing that cannot be reversed is soul destruction. Thus it is infinitely more evil than any evil that can be reversed.
Moreover, assuming redemption is accessible to everyone (which is setting dependent), you never know if this soul could make some good at some point of their infinite existence.

The demons lords are "changing" and by that i mean, that having a demon lord get killed, is not... rare, but as soon as a demon lord falls, another rises, so it's unlikely it will create any change for the Goblins.

either way.... wouldn't the destruction of the "demon lord" itself be morally questionable if we put it that way?

Note: I do agree that is not "good" to destroy a soul, but i wouldn't say its evil to destroy a soul, as it may be more evil to destroy a life knowing that you're basically forcing them into eternal pain.

Note2: The slave comparison does not work, as one of them is damned by the "owner" and the other is damned regardless of the "owner"

[Maxilian]

Which makes them no longer souls. You've just repeated what I said.

That's why their creature type is Fiend, not Undead.

I... don't get it, what are you trying to say?

Is not like the Fiends are soulless creature.

Note: What does undead have to do with this? a soul being pushed into another body does not make the new one undead somehow.

Note2: They are described as "Twisted and tormented souls of evil and corrupted mortals" so they are still souls (Twisted, but still them)

Note3: MM Page 67 says "When the soul of an evil mortal sinks into the Nine Hells, it takes on the physical form of a wretched lemure." so no idea why it wouldnt be still it, as it just mentions it takes a physical form, not that it stop being



No, they do not do that, and it's not the reason why they see it as bad.

Are the demons the ones who do this? (Well... at least souls are used as currency in the Nine Hells -maybe not in all part of it-)

[Maxilian]

Souls are something very vital to the structure and purpose of the Great Wheel as a whole... in many ways the Great Wheel's overall design is a giant factory to create souls, house them in bodies to help rarefy and sort them, and then put them in eternal storage places once the process is finished. Disrupting that path of Souls is something that forces, Good and Evil, just don't abide by... everyone was pissed with Ashardalon tried to take over the Well of Souls; no one stands by if a God tries to become the patron of Unborn Souls... it is a 'crime against reality' level crime that gets everyone on the same page the same way messing around with the Far Realm tends to be

If it constantly create souls, why would it be a problem to destroy them? (It eventually happens, be it by destroying the soul itself or destroying a soul in another form -like a devil destroyed with holy weapons or destroyed in the Nine Hells)

[Millstone85]

That's why their creature type is Fiend, not Undead.Eladrin who wish to be reborn as fey might question that logic.


I... don't get it, what are you trying to say?

Is not like the Fiends are soulless creature.This is exactly what Unoriginal is saying. Fiends are born from souls, but are not souls / don't have souls.

[Maxilian]

This is exactly what Unoriginal is saying. Fiends are born from souls, but are not souls / don't have souls.

But the Monster Manual says that the Lemures are the physical forms of the souls.

"When the soul of an evil mortal sinks into the Nine Hells, it takes on the physical form of a wretched lemure."

Note: Is in any other place pointed out that devils/fiends have no souls?

[Unoriginal]

Is not like the Fiends are soulless creature.

They quite explicitly are.



Note: What does undead have to do with this? a soul being pushed into another body does not make the new one undead somehow.

A soul outside of the body that still act is an Undead. Such as Ghosts.



Are the demons the ones who do this? (Well... at least souls are used as currency in the Nine Hells -maybe not in all part of it-)

Devils do that. Demons usually don't touch souls. Orcus and Co are a special case.



Eladrin who wish to be reborn as fey might question that logic.

I don't see why. If they become Fey, they aren't Undead.

[Maxilian]

They quite explicitly are.


Where is it pointed out? I mean... the MM mentions that Lemures are the physical forms of Corrupted Mortal souls, so they still are souls or at least have souls.



A soul outside of the body that still act is an Undead. Such as Ghosts.


Yes a soul without a body is normally a ghost, and some souls with bodies are also undead, but that does not mean that all souls that get a new body are undeads or so on.

Note: In general, i was not talking about disembodied souls.

[Millstone85]

I don't see why. If they become Fey, they aren't Undead.And if someone were to "become fiend", they too obviously wouldn't be undead.


Yes a soul without a body is normally a ghost, and some souls with bodies are also undeadAnd then there are undead that are bodies without souls.


Where is it pointed out? I mean... the MM mentions that Lemures are the physical forms of Corrupted Mortal souls, so they still are souls or at least have souls.I have an even better MM quote.
Chain devils act as sadistic jailers and torturers in the infernal realms, relishing pain and living to inflict it on others. They are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest.

[Unoriginal]

And if someone were to "become fiend", they too obviously wouldn't be undead.

Which was my point. Thanks for agreeing.




I have an even better MM quote.

I have quotes too


When a cultist dies, its soul emerges in the Nine Hells and becomes another of the Blood War's immortal soldiers. Most of the evil souls consigned to an afterlife in the Nine Hells become lemures, which make up the vast majority of the hellish forces


Hellfire Lance.
If this damage kills a creature, the creature's soul rises from the River Styx as a lemure in Avernus in ld4 hours. If the creature isn't revived before then, only a wish spell or killing the lemure and casting true resurrection on the creature's original body can restore it to life. Constructs and devils are immune to this effect.


Death in Hellfire
A narzugon's lances are forged in hellfire. The soul of anyone killed by such a lance is shunted to the River Styx for rebirth as a lemure.


No soul is turned away from the Nine Hells, but the truly worthless-those whose evil acts in life arose from carelessness and sloth more than anything else- are suitable only to become nupperibos.

And that's not going into the Dragon Heist spoilers.

Point is, Devils are made of souls, they are not souls themselves nor have souls (except in the sense "owning other persons' souls").

Being turned into a Devil is a full-on transformation changing the very nature of the soul. The only thing that remains after a dip in the Styx is the creature's "evil deeds".

[Millstone85]

Which was my point. Thanks for agreeing.So what, you think fey don't have souls either?


I have quotes tooAnd I thank you for providing an even better one.


If this damage kills a creature, the creature's soul rises from the River Styx as a lemure in Avernus in 1d4 hours. If the creature isn't revived before then, only a wish spell or killing the lemure and casting true resurrection on the creature's original body can restore it to life. Constructs and devils are immune to this effect.Even I did not think the soul was that intact.

[hamishspence]

if destroying souls is intrisically evil, then a good blessed creature (or with holy anything) that kills any Lemure in the any of the Hells is doing evil.



Lemures are formerly souls, but they put in the Styx, erasing their selves, and then irremediably bound to the structure of the Nine Hells. Destroying them is not like destroying a soul (and arguably the Hells already did that).



MToF p167, Narzugon, Hellfire Lance
If this damage kills a creature, the creature's soul rises from the River Styx as a lemure in Avernus in 1d4 hours. If the creature isn't revived before then, only a wish spell or killing the lemure and casting true resurrection on the creature's original body can restore it to life. Constructs and devils are immune to this effect.

Even I did not think the soul was that intact.

It would appear that destroying a lemure frees their soul to be affected by spells like True Resurrection, which would normally not work on somebody who has become a lemure.

[Unoriginal]

So what, you think fey don't have souls either?

Reincarnating into a Fey isn't the same thing than becoming a devil.



Even I did not think the soul was that intact.

The soul is not intact. The "True" part of "True Resurection" isn't for show.

But eh.


The Cassalanter heir apparent is a soulless abomination thanks to his parents' thoughtless greed. His empty shell of a body has been transformed into a chain devil that his parents have imprisoned using his own chain

Do note that while the circumstances of the transformation are quite unusual, the module is quite clear that "losing your soul to Hell = become soulless and a Devil".


It would appear that destroying a lemure frees their soul to be affected by spells like True Resurrection, which would normally not work on somebody who has become a lemure.

Do note that unlike higher forms of devils, the Lemure is more or less immortal while in Hell unless killed a very specific way:



Hellish Rejuvenation. A lemure that dies in the Nine Hells comes back to life with all its hit points in 1d10 days unless it is killed by a good·aligned creature with a bless spell cast on that creature or its remains are sprinkled with holy water.

[Maxilian]

Point is, Devils are made of souls, they are not souls themselves nor have souls (except in the sense "owning other persons' souls").

Being turned into a Devil is a full-on transformation changing the very nature of the soul. The only thing that remains after a dip in the Styx is the creature's "evil deeds".

But it can be "resurrected" as a "full soul" (as a living creature), so it stills have a soul to bring back.

Also




I have an even better MM quote.

Quote Originally Posted by MM p68
Chain devils act as sadistic jailers and torturers in the infernal realms, relishing pain and living to inflict it on others. They are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest.

Doesn't this show that the souls still exist as Lemures?

At least... Lemures are souls (or the manifestation of them -as its pointed out here, and in my previous quote where it mentions that they are Physical forms of Souls-)

Note: Assuming that the souls are "destroyed" when they reach the Nine Hells (As they end up becoming Devils (?)), why would it be evil to destroy souls damned to the Nine Hells? Because it could shift the balance between the forces of the Demons and Devils?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Chain devils act as sadistic jailers and torturers in the infernal realms, relishing pain and living to inflict it on others. They are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest.
Doesn't this show that the souls still exist as Lemures?

At least... Lemures are souls (or the manifestation of them -as its pointed out here, and in my previous quote where it mentions that they are Physical forms of Souls-)

Note: Assuming that the souls are "destroyed" when they reach the Nine Hells (As they end up becoming Devils (?)), why would it be evil to destroy souls damned to the Nine Hells? Because it could shift the balance between the forces of the Demons and Devils?
As for Lemures still being considered a soul, I think the Sword/Ingot comparison was actually quite apt.

You can bang up an ingot (soul) into many different shapes but you're going to have a tough time fitting a sword (Lemure) back into a full ingot without some incredible circumstances (True Resurrection and Wish). If you can't fit a Lemure back into their previously mortal shell without borderline godlike powers, they're not really a soul anymore. As hamishspence pointed out above however, Lemures are more like living soul cages than actual souls. It's explicitly mentioned that killing a Lemure gives you the opportunity to recover the soul.

As for the second part, I do believe that would still be evil. You're perfectly aware that the fine line keeping one side from winning the blood war is vitally necessary to the continued existence of the known multiverse. Why would you want that?

If the Devils win, the entire multiverse gets to be subservient to them and live in a "paradise" overseen by Asmodeus, a literal incarnation of evil who would enslave every living thing... forever. If the Demon's win, the entire multiverse eventually seeps into the Abyss (Capital "A") and chaos reigns for eternity, it doesn't even stop there because eventually even then they're going to fight until only one remains.

Not that you would manage to make that much of a dent. Apparently even with notable incredibly powerful Liches like Acerak and Vecna running around the multiverse consuming the souls of tens of thousands, it doesn't tip the scales. You would be consigning yourself to commit unspeakable evil, claiming it to be for an almost certainly unachievable end that is "good".

So I'm pretty sure it would still be evil. You're either destroying souls for no good reason or you actually succeed and doom the known multiverse.

[Maxilian]

So I'm pretty sure it would still be evil. You're either destroying souls for no good reason or you actually succeed and doom the known multiverse.

So...

As long as i maintain the order of the cosmos, is ok to destroy souls?

I mean.... based on your posts, Moderkairse and those that follow him are good, and they are not, they are just neutral, even if they want to protect the known multiverse.

[Maxilian]

As for Lemures still being considered a soul, I think the Sword/Ingot comparison was actually quite apt.

You can bang up an ingot (soul) into many different shapes but you're going to have a tough time fitting a sword (Lemure) back into a full ingot without some incredible circumstances (True Resurrection and Wish). If you can't fit a Lemure back into their previously mortal shell without borderline godlike powers, they're not really a soul anymore. As hamishspence pointed out above however, Lemures are more like living soul cages than actual souls. It's explicitly mentioned that killing a Lemure gives you the opportunity to recover the soul.


Wouldnt this mean that they have souls?

Note: And wouldn't the destruction of lemures in general be evil, mostly if its destroyed by a good creature with holy anything.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wouldnt this mean that they have souls?

Note: And wouldn't the destruction of lemures in general be evil, mostly if its destroyed by a good creature with holy anything.

They are a soulless fiend that is functioning as a cage for the trapped and tormented soul sent to the nine hells. No, the quote by hamishspence quite literally says that killing the lemure allows someone sufficiently powerful to potentially restore the soul to its original body.

You're starting to remind me of the guy who just asks "but why" to every question even when the question has already been answered.

[Maxilian]

They are a soulless fiend that is functioning as a cage for the trapped and tormented soul sent to the nine hells. No, the quote by hamishspence quite literally says that killing the lemure allows someone sufficiently powerful to potentially restore the soul to its original body.

You're starting to remind me of the guy who just asks "but why" to every question even when the question has already been answered.

I'm so sorry for this, i know this may be annoying for many of you guys (mainly you and Unoriginal, as you both have taken some of your time to try to answer me) but the problem is that the answers that i'm being given just give me more questions or are half answers (for me).

For example: I don´t understand why it is bad to destroy "damned" souls, if as you guys pointed out, they are "destroyed" when they fall into the Nine Hells, if the excuse is that it would push back the Devils and give the Demons the upper hand in the Blood Wars, then i just need to A) Add another front to the battle or B) Do the same amount of damage in both sides of the battlefield.

Note: If its bad cause there is the small chance that those souls could be saved by a godly power, then it wouldn't be bad to be a Lich and consume the souls of the damned as a godly power could restore the consumed souls.

Note2: I mean... based on what you told me, if the only reason why destroying an evil souls is bad, is because of the blood war, then its as bad as killing a Devil in the Nine Hells.

[Naanomi]

Destroying those souls is bad because Evil souls going to the lower Planes and either turning into fiends, joining their patron Gods who dwell on those planes, or becoming more classic petitioners who eventually merge with the Plane... is the way things are ‘supposed’ to happen, and keeps the Cosmos functioning... disrupting that process by destroying or trapping souls harms The Great Wheel itself (admittedly not much on a normal scale, lots of infinities invoked in the math) to the detriment of all beings; and is thus evil (in the greater evil sense, not necessarily the cosmological Evil sense) independent of the fate of those souls

Like... if there was a nasty prison where people were tortured; but somehow freeing the prisoners would cause the nuclear bomb buried beneath it to detonate. The state of the prisoners is arguably evil, but the devastation caused by freeing them is also evil regardless and opposed by both the people wanting a better life for the prisoners; the wardens torturing them, and in at least some cases the prisoners themselves

[Maxilian]

Destroying those souls is bad because Evil souls going to the lower Planes and either turning into fiends, joining their patron Gods who dwell on those planes, or becoming more classic petitioners who eventually merge with the Plane... is the way things are ‘supposed’ to happen, and keeps the Cosmos functioning... disrupting that process by destroying or trapping souls harms The Great Wheel itself (admittedly not much on a normal scale, lots of infinities invoked in the math) to the detriment of all beings; and is thus evil (in the greater evil sense, not necessarily the cosmological Evil sense) independent of the fate of those souls

Like... if there was a nasty prison where people were tortured; but somehow freeing the prisoners would cause the nuclear bomb buried beneath it to detonate. The state of the prisoners is arguably evil, but the devastation caused by freeing them is also evil regardless and opposed by both the people wanting a better life for the prisoners; the wardens torturing them, and in at least some cases the prisoners themselves

Thanks a lot, this actually answer my question.

And thanks to everyone else for dealing with my lack of understanding and still push through it till i get it :D