Stranger Things: Bad News for the Youth of D&D?

[the_brazenburn]

I'm a bit peeved about this.

The obscenely popular Netflix show Stranger Things has a fair number of D&D references in it. That's totally fine: in fact it's great because it helps to spread it to the mainstream. My problem is with the misnomers ever-fricking-where!

I met somebody about a week ago that wanted to try D&D out, and I suggested that they could join my group if they wanted to. They mentioned the word "Demogorgon" in passing somewhere, so I mentioned that I intended to run Out of the Abyss later and showed them the cover.

Them: What's that big ugly thing with the extra head?
Me: That's Demogorgon. I thought you'd heard of him...
Them: That's not what Demogorgon looks like!

The person had only heard of Demogorgon via Stranger Things and had absolutely no idea that the show got it completely wrong! The same thing could plausibly happen with the Mind Flayer, and it overall just gives me a foul taste in my mouth whenever somebody makes a reference to a D&D creature that they have no idea of the history of!

Probably the biggest problem with this is that Stranger Things is most popular among the 13-20 range: the best place to recruit new D&D players. If the next generation of D&D is going to be affected by the wrong impressions they are getting from Stranger Things!

Please Discuss.

[ciarannihill]

The person had only heard of Demogorgon via Stranger Things and had absolutely no idea that the show got it completely wrong! The same thing could plausibly happen with the Mind Flayer, and it overall just gives me a foul taste in my mouth whenever somebody makes a reference to a D&D creature that they have no idea of the history of!

So here's the thing: The show knows that the creature isn't the Demogorgon, it didn't get it "completely wrong", since the actual Demogorgon never appears in the show. The creature is nicknamed the Demogorgon by the kids because it's a common point of reference for them, same with the Mindflayer. It should be easy enough to explain that to this individual and other new prospective players.

[Maxilian]

Not surprised, but in the show they point out that is not actually the Demogorgon, is just how they call it (in the end, they need to have some way to call it instead of just "Oh no tentacle monster is here!!!", and they just made a comparison to it cause its a demonic like creature that comes from a hellish plane of existant)

[the_brazenburn]

Not surprised, but in the show they point out that is not actually the Demogorgon, is just how they call it (in the end, they need to have some way to call it instead of just "Oh no tentacle monster is here!!!", and they just made a comparison to it cause its a demonic like creature that comes from a hellish plane of existant)

I know.

It's obvious to us because we have a reference point (the "real" Demogorgon), but apparently the teenagers who watch that show don't because it either isn't clear enough or they aren't smart enough to figure it out themselves.

[Unoriginal]

Coincidentally, Demogorgon is a fairly generic demon name.

Keep in mind that according to D&D, this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/86/Gorgon-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20171011013722

is a gorgon. People familiar with Greek mythology can be puzzled by that.

[ImproperJustice]

Could be worse:

You coulda grown up in the 80s where everyone’s first exposure to D&D was the horrible movie Mazes and Monsters with Tom Hanks.

Or even better, the infamous Chic Tract found at churches today whereupon a young woman reached 13th level and is told she needs to kill her parents. Thankfully her pastor tosses her game books in a fire and saves her as demons fly out of them as they burn.....

(I want to clarify that the Christian faith is largely dominated by some of the kindest, moste selfless and generous people I know. Many are well educated, kind, honorable, and compassionate people).

However, at least at that point in history, a vocal ill-informed minority made life miserable for a lot of gamers back in the day.
The gaming industry didn’t do themselves any favors by having a giant Balrog on the DMG, etc...

Hopefully I am not crossing any forum lines here, and don’t want to sidetrack the conversation with mention of a religious group.

But our hobby has always had the difficulty of being somewhat hard for everyday people to grasp. I think it’s exciting that more and more mainstream folls are taking an interest. My gaming group has exploded just in the last year with people wanting to try it out. So many then choose to stay and keep playing.

[Maxilian]

Coincidentally, Demogorgon is a fairly generic demon name.

Keep in mind that according to D&D, this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/86/Gorgon-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20171011013722

is a gorgon. People familiar with Greek mythology can be puzzled by that.

I hate that creature name, but i like its design.

I also like how good this creature goes in an encounter with a Medusa.

[JeenLeen]

On-topic: I can see that being annoying, but reckon all-in-all it brings folk to the tabletop gaming scene.



You coulda grown up in the 80s where everyone’s first exposure to D&D was the horrible movie Mazes and Monsters with Tom Hanks..

I watched that movie on Netflix sometime in the last couple years. I thought it was a cool thing showing how D&D is fun, but someone with mental issues could go overboard in it. I thought that it did a good job of distinguishing the game as a game (not an issue) verses it as... not quite sure how to phrase it... but a medium or vehicle through which some issues could be expressed or exacerbated.

Or, rather, I thought that it did a good job until the very end. I forget how it ended, but I think it got more blatantly anti-D&D in a way that confused me. Until then, it seems a cool gamer movie.
Was it meant to anti-D&D?

---
On a similar note, I watched part of a movie (13 Knights? Something like that...) about folk going insane and on murdering sprees while playing a tabletop game. But it was an obviously cursed game, so I think more just horror than anti-D&D. I found it fairly boring and some of the psychedelic style visually unappealing, and so I didn't finish it.

[MrWesson22]

Movies and television have always gotten things wrong from a hobbyist's point of view regardless of which hobby we discuss. Be a car guy and watch Fast and the Furious. Watch 17 shots get fired without reloading from a 6 shot revolver in Tombstone. Any exposure for D&D in movies and television is good exposure.

And yes, it was much worse in the 80s when our protestant parents didn't want us to play because they thought it was satanic.

[AHF]

While there may be momentary confusion on a couple of preconceptions from watching Stranger Things, I'm thrilled to have a well made, well acted show that is popular and shows the kids playing D&D as the primary protagonists. I think it is really only a positive. The momentary confusion on what the Demogorgan looks like is not a big deal to me at all.

[Millstone85]

What annoys me the most is the whole "the Demogorgon" thing.

In D&D, that would be like saying "the Asmodeus".

[Temperjoke]

I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it actually is. I mean, how many threads have there been about DMs complaining that their players want something from Critical Role? Take it as an opportunity to explain something about that aspect of D&D (whether it's home rules, what a monster actually is, etc.) and lead them into the wider world of D&D. If they don't accept it, then that might be a sign that they're not actually interested in the game, just the link to the media they're consuming.

[McSkrag]

I think Stranger Things is great for D&D. Anything that gets more people interested and excited to play is very good for the community.

The technical details in the show don't matter. The important thing is that the kids playing are super relatable and make playing D&D look like fun.

[Brawndo]

It'll be fine, people will get introduced to the hobby and find out the real scoop.

I'm old enough to be part of the generation whose mixed-up ideas about D&D came from the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon series, if you were lucky - and if you weren't lucky, it was Jack Chick tracts or that TV-movie Mazes and Monsters, where we all watched Tom Hanks go insane and murder people because of D&D.

D&D survived and flourished through all of that, so I don't think we need to be that worried about mis-naming one monster.

[No brains]

IIRC, they actually use a mini of the 'real' demogorgon in the show and Eleven gestures to it when describing the flower-faced thing. It's basically shorthand for 'very dangerous monster'.

Now what gets me ALL CAPS pissed off is that D&D misappropriated the regurgitated term for 'demiurge' and used it to describe a paragon of Chaotic Evil! That two-faced monkey-squid isn't making or maintaining ANYTHING! I AM PISSED!:smalltongue:

If somebody wants to fight that demogorgon, re-skin an ethereal maurauder or maybe a phase spider. Make it immune to bullets and slingshots, but susceptible to baseball bats and bear traps.

[Willie the Duck]

I would think that D&D using Anderson trolls instead of Tolkien ones... or D&D goblins being little humanoid combatants instead of Harry Potter banker stereotypes ... or Sylphs, Gnomes, Salamanders, and Undines not being the stereotypical elementals... will cause at least as much of an issue. Throw in things like Warcraft and Warhammer and Keebler/Santa's elves or heck just plain the massive variation in real world traditional folklore... and well singling out Stranger Things--much less "next generation of D&D" (remember unless your last name is Kuntz, Mornard, Holmes, or Gygax, etc. you probably are someone else's "next generation of D&D")-- is just cherry picking.

[NRSASD]

@the_brazenburn: I feel your pain, but from the opposite direction. Our D&D group couldn't finish Stranger Things because the show writers clearly haven't played D&D yet want to reference it. Since I'm normally the pedantic one about these things, I was quite amused that I was the only one who wasn't bothered by it : ).

@ImproperJustice, MrWesson22: Some areas of the U.S., like where I grew up, still haven't gotten the memo that D&D =/= Satanism. I got those Chic Tracts instead of Halloween candy as recently as 2010.

All in all though, more exposure can only be a good thing. More exposure=more players=more $ for WotC=more content and adventures for us. If Stranger Things attracts more people, us veterans can always teach them how to identify demons. And more importantly, to always CHECK FOR TRAPS!

[Unoriginal]

Now what gets me ALL CAPS pissed off is that D&D misappropriated the regurgitated term for 'demiurge' and used it to describe a paragon of Chaotic Evil! That two-faced monkey-squid isn't making or maintaining ANYTHING! I AM PISSED!:smalltongue:

So I take it you're not a fan of Gnosticism.

[ad_hoc]

Don't they use the Demogorgon mini in the show?

[Pex]

More than the fact that every D&D player knows never to cast Fireball at Demogorgon because he's immune so there shouldn't have been a choice between that and Protection Spell, they got playing the game wrong. Demogorgon would not just suddenly appear as a random monster. He's the BBEG you're expecting to fight. Even if Demogorgon would be a creature your character is expected to face, you would have a lot better choices of spells to cast than a mere Fireball or Protection Spell.

At least they got how to play the game somewhat accurately. It was far better portrayed than what Eureka! on Syfy said was playing Dungeons and Dragons, where you roll a die, move a piece on a board, then fight a monster. There is the board game Dungeon which is like that, but that's not what they were shown playing. The game they showed doesn't exist. It was only a prop.

[Unoriginal]

Funnily enough, from the other side of things, I've once watched a review of a cartoon episode where the characters played a RPG which was explicitly NOT D&D, and the reviewer (who flaunted playing D&D) made me angry by keeping self-importantly saying things like "what are you doing this is not how you play D&D".

[Willie the Duck]

More than the fact that every D&D player knows never to cast Fireball at Demogorgon because he's immune so there shouldn't have been a choice between that and Protection Spell, they got playing the game wrong. Demogorgon would not just suddenly appear as a random monster. He's the BBEG you're expecting to fight. Even if Demogorgon would be a creature your character is expected to face, you would have a lot better choices of spells to cast than a mere Fireball or Protection Spell.

OTOH, using fireballs on demons and having Demogorgon as a random monster is totally something I could see happening in a 11-year old's D&D game in the early-mid 80s. Them getting those bits wrong (in a way kids do) actually feels very real to me.

[some guy]

Coincidentally, Demogorgon is a fairly generic demon name.

Keep in mind that according to D&D, this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/86/Gorgon-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20171011013722

is a gorgon. People familiar with Greek mythology can be puzzled by that.

The mythical catoblepas is also called a gorgon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas) (and looks also a bit like a d&d gorgon, except for the metal body. It also has petrifying breath). So, a gorgon can refer to a medusa, a gorgon or a catoblepas.


As for any possible misidentification of Demogorgon caused by Stranger Things, that's just misinformation spread by Demogorgon, so He can further his plans into this reality.

[Draconi Redfir]

Simple solution:

Player: That's not the Demogorgon!

You: In this game it is, the one you might be familiar with is unique to that show but has the same name. Kind of like how Smaug and Toothless are both called Dragons but are very different.

Likely response of the player: ooohh!


A polite explanation will fix so many things. Just don't get upset when someone doesn't know something. A lack of knowledge is not malice.

[Callak_Remier]

Just make sure to let them know that whoever named it the demogorgon failed thier Knowledge Arcana check

[KorvinStarmast]

in which we discuss what it actually takes to kill Demogorgon in AD&D (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/85105/22566). :smallbiggrin:

You coulda grown up in the 80s where everyone’s first exposure to D&D was the horrible movie Mazes and Monsters with Tom Hanks. Some anti D&D feeling predated that, but the 80's (when I was in my 20's) saw that crap come into full flower. What a load of rubbish all that noise was.

Or even better, the infamous Chic Tract Must restrain self from making rantish noise about those various tracts ...

However, at least at that point in history, a vocal ill-informed minority made life miserable for a lot of gamers back in the day. The gaming industry didn’t do themselves any favors by having a giant Balrog on the DMG, etc... That was an efreet, if you mean the AD&D 1e DMG. :smallwink:

I am glad to see 5e attracting new folks to the game. I think that's great.

[N810]

On a slightly different track;
is there a creature in the 80's monsters manual that
does resemble the creature from stranger things ? :mitd:

[GlenSmash!]

Stranger Things' opening scene in the very first episode has a miniature of Demogorgon, that still looks quite a bit like the one on the cover of OotA.

It's not the show's fault that this new player is stupid missed that.

Still it's a great teaching opportunity.

"Actually remember the very first episode of Stranger Things... and then they named the monster from the Upside Down after this creature from D&D. Pretty neat huh?"

[MaxWilson]

That was an efreet, if you mean the AD&D 1e DMG. :smallwink:

While we're on the topic of name rants, it drives me up the wall that the 5E MM uses "efreeti" (and "djinni") as singular nouns.

"If the efreeti dies, its body disintegrates..."

Wrong, WOTC. It should be, "If the ifrit dies...", or if you insist on Americanizing the spelling, "If the efreet dies..."

[Joe the Rat]

Don't they use the Demogorgon mini in the show?

Just what I was coming in to mention. If you actually watched the first episode of the first season, a (rather spindly) miniature of Demogorgon appears within the first 10 minutes. I'm giving the roll a d20 for fireball business a pass.

It's not a bad cue to who's actually watched vs. who saw a few episodes to stay current on the scuttlebutt around the water cooler, or whatever the 21st century metaphor is.



The sequel gave me an idea of how to reskin Death Dogs...

[qube]

Could be worse. They could want to fight a gazeebo


...

oh wait

...

[PracticalM]

At least Loot Crate had some fun with this

https://www.lootcrate.com/community/daily-crate/looter-love-loot-crate-dx-demogorgon-figure/

The Demogorgon figure is pretty good. The after market prices are crazy though.

[AHF]

Just what I was coming in to mention. If you actually watched the first episode of the first season, a (rather spindly) miniature of Demogorgon appears within the first 10 minutes. I'm giving the roll a d20 for fireball business a pass.

It's not a bad cue to who's actually watched vs. who saw a few episodes to stay current on the scuttlebutt around the water cooler, or whatever the 21st century metaphor is.



The sequel gave me an idea of how to reskin Death Dogs...

The whole thing with the fireball and protection spell is that was a theme for revealing character that they wanted built into the script and developed over the course of the season. Which of these kids would want to go for protection and which would want to go fireball? Then you get the callback both to the fireball and the decision as a revelation of character. The reason they went with a die roll was so the outcome could be uncertain since it was foreshadowing.

Not D&D accurate but a change that doesn't hurt my head too much.

[Joe the Rat]

Not D&D accurate but a change that doesn't hurt my head too much.

'zactly, so it gets a pass.

[Darth Ultron]

Just about anything someone has heard about D&D is wrong....but then just about anything anyone has heard of is wrong too. It just works that way.

Stranger Things is no more ''wrong'' then just about any other show when using D&D. Most of the time they get it about half right, and most of the time the rest is simply done wrong for some reason. Like when they have to ''roll a 13''...for something? Eh, it's just sounds D&D like, so they roll with it.

So anyone that watches a couple of TV shows, or plays a couple video games, will just wander over and think all sorts of wrong things about D&D.

And, about half of the new players will think lots of ''wrong stuff'' too.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think the one that got me was one of the detective shows (a real life one - not a fiction). They were on the trail of a murderer and were suspicious of a particular suspect. They were doing some research on him and said something along the lines of:

"Then we found out he played Dungeons and Dragons. That's when we knew we were on the right track."

Just to clarify, the murders had literally nothing to do with Dungeons and Dragons. The guy wasn't dressing his victims in wizard hats or killing players whose characters died in his campaign. It was literally the detectives saying 'This guy plays D&D and therefore he must be a murderer.'

There is no middle finger big enough. :smallfurious:



Could be worse:

You coulda grown up in the 80s where everyone’s first exposure to D&D was the horrible movie Mazes and Monsters with Tom Hanks.

Or even better, the infamous Chic Tract found at churches today whereupon a young woman reached 13th level and is told she needs to kill her parents. Thankfully her pastor tosses her game books in a fire and saves her as demons fly out of them as they burn.....

(I want to clarify that the Christian faith is largely dominated by some of the kindest, moste selfless and generous people I know. Many are well educated, kind, honorable, and compassionate people).

However, at least at that point in history, a vocal ill-informed minority made life miserable for a lot of gamers back in the day.
The gaming industry didn’t do themselves any favors by having a giant Balrog on the DMG, etc...

Hopefully I am not crossing any forum lines here, and don’t want to sidetrack the conversation with mention of a religious group.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120609.gif

[MagneticKitty]

Coincidentally, Demogorgon is a fairly generic demon name.

Keep in mind that according to D&D, this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/86/Gorgon-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20171011013722

is a gorgon. People familiar with Greek mythology can be puzzled by that.

http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/sotn/enemies/gorgon.gif
Castlevania seems to share the opinion that it is, indeed, a gorgon. It breathes smoke that paralyzed as well

[Kane0]

You may be getting caught up in the specifics.

If AT-AT is pronounced oddly or the paintjob of a CPLT-C1 is slightly off it doesn't really matter all that much if the person is still engaged and ends up getting into the franchise. They might find that the lore differs from what they were initially exposed to but that's just part of the experience, and a lot of the time leads to interesting interpretations and re-imaginings of the norm for that lore.

[Pex]

OTOH, using fireballs on demons and having Demogorgon as a random monster is totally something I could see happening in a 11-year old's D&D game in the early-mid 80s. Them getting those bits wrong (in a way kids do) actually feels very real to me.

Fair point.

[No brains]

So I take it you're not a fan of Gnosticism.

My philosophy is PISSED.

[Finback]

Was it meant to anti-D&D?


Perhaps not specifically, but it WAS a response to the notion at the time that D&D was antisocial and exacerbated existing issues in teens. It was loosely based off the "real story" of a kid who went missing - but the churches and media misrepresented the entirety of it. The guy who went missing was in the closet, and ran away from home to deal with his issues. He also was a heavy drug user and suffered from depression. In fact, people who did play D&D with him effectively kicked him out of the group because he would fail to show up regularly, etc. One of the detectives who was assigned to find the guy tried to "infiltrate" a D&D game, and was rather surprised. He wanted to get in on some multiday games, and was looked at weirdly. He was already relying on secondhand ideas about what it WAS, which abruptly proved otherwise when sitting around a table.

I can absolutely recommend people listen to this episode of the MonsterTalk podcast (https://www.skeptic.com/podcasts/monstertalk/15/03/04/) to get a better understanding of how that film, Chick tracts, etc. all tied into the Satanic Panic of the 70s/80s, and how deliberate misrepresentation of real-world events biased cultural events, which is what continues to colour some people's understanding of RPGs.

[Ronnocius]

Honestly Stranger Things is, in my opinion, fantastic for the franchise and game of D&D at large. What is a much more annoying issue is Critical Role. It seems there are far more players who will have misconceptions from Critical Role in my experience (thinking house rules are the actual rules, or the house rules in the show should become the house rules of the game, making exact replicas of the Critical Role characters and trying to use the exact same jokes, getting mad when their characters are not given 'uber cool dream sequences' like happened to the bard that one time, wanting to use Critical Role homebrew and complaining after being refused, expecting everyone to become a voice actor etc)

[MeeposFire]

Also remember that they are paying older versions of the game where many rules were kind of arcane (and I am not using that in the typical D&D manner either I am using it as meaning mysterious). For example you will find many people who played AD&D1e and did not and further could not (because it was too confusing) use certain rules such as the default initiative system and the armor vs weapons tables (note also that this is a big reason why in 2e both of these rules were changed to much simpler forms). Kids in particular making up rules or misunderstanding rules is exceedingly common and I can recall several rules that my friends and I got wrong back in the day.

[Mordaedil]

What is a much more annoying issue is Critical Role. It seems there are far more players who will have misconceptions from Critical Role in my experience (thinking house rules are the actual rules, or the house rules in the show should become the house rules of the game, making exact replicas of the Critical Role characters and trying to use the exact same jokes, getting mad when their characters are not given 'uber cool dream sequences' like happened to the bard that one time, wanting to use Critical Role homebrew and complaining after being refused, expecting everyone to become a voice actor etc)
The house-rules thing is a thing Matt is pretty conscious of and actually makes sure to mention on the show that is a house-rule of theirs, so you can point it out to your players that they should pay more attention to the warnings given in the show, if they are really all that great of fans. Matt runs with a bunch of house rules, some to make his way of running a game more exciting and others to give the characters more to do every round.

Making characters based on the ones presented in the show is a problem we've had since bloody Drizzt Do'Urden, I wouldn't worry about it. The humor thing is also not a thing that should bother you, it's just how we express and share culture with eachother.

You could tell your players that you don't really do dream sequences as they don't really serve your games plot any purposes, unless your characters are insane.

As for expecting people to be voice-actors, well... Step up your roleplaying game, I guess? (They do point out in the show several times to not expect things to go the same way in your home game as they are professional voice actors, but I guess fans overlook this kind of stuff.) Honestly, you should just tell your players to be as original as the critical role crew and make distinct characters instead of being copycats.

[KorvinStarmast]

While we're on the topic of name rants, it drives me up the wall that the 5E MM uses "efreeti" (and "djinni") as singular nouns. "If the efreeti dies, its body disintegrates..."
Wrong, WOTC. It should be, "If the ifrit dies...", or if you insist on Americanizing the spelling, "If the efreet dies..." Yes, it's annoying that they do that.
"Then we found out he played Dungeons and Dragons. That's when we knew we were on the right track."

Just to clarify, the murders had literally nothing to do with Dungeons and Dragons. Just in the FWIW department, not quite a decade ago a cop I know very well (worked homicide back then) investigated a murder (helping out a Florida PD where the body was found) of a lady who had met a man playing Neverwinter Nights on line. (He was eventually extradited from Texas to Florida ... they had tracked him to Texas due to using her credit card, or maybe ATM card, at a few gas stations between Fl and Tx).
For example you will find many people who played AD&D1e and did not and further could not (because it was too confusing) use certain rules such as the default initiative system and the armor vs weapons tables (note also that this is a big reason why in 2e both of these rules were changed to much simpler forms). Kids in particular making up rules or misunderstanding rules is exceedingly common and I can recall several rules that my friends and I got wrong back in the day. Yes, to all that. and weapons speed factors ... arrrgggghhh!

[Asmotherion]

Big deal. Prove them wrong. Worst case scenario, give them the complete speach about Planewalking, alternate Dimensions, and how many Multiverses of D&D there exist; Argue that what they saw was just one of them, going from one dimension to an other. :P In your specific world, who you describe as Demogorgon, in his Incarnation in that world.

You're welcome.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, it's annoying that they do that.

I am of the opinion that they should stick with the Americanized spelling for an American game (it's not really ifrit either, it would be عفريت), but getting the plural form wrong is just being lazy. I wonder if WotC has a style guide or terminology index for the writers to use.


Yes, to all that. and weapons speed factors ... arrrgggghhh!

And weapon reach (which at least I like in theory, but it was clearly a lost battle). I do wish that they had re-balanced 2e weapons after they cut reach and WvAC, as there was nearly no reason not to use a longsword, longbow, or 2h sword (if your class allowed).

[MilkmanDanimal]

The house-rules thing is a thing Matt is pretty conscious of and actually makes sure to mention on the show that is a house-rule of theirs, so you can point it out to your players that they should pay more attention to the warnings given in the show, if they are really all that great of fans. Matt runs with a bunch of house rules, some to make his way of running a game more exciting and others to give the characters more to do every round.

Making characters based on the ones presented in the show is a problem we've had since bloody Drizzt Do'Urden, I wouldn't worry about it. The humor thing is also not a thing that should bother you, it's just how we express and share culture with eachother.

You could tell your players that you don't really do dream sequences as they don't really serve your games plot any purposes, unless your characters are insane.

As for expecting people to be voice-actors, well... Step up your roleplaying game, I guess? (They do point out in the show several times to not expect things to go the same way in your home game as they are professional voice actors, but I guess fans overlook this kind of stuff.) Honestly, you should just tell your players to be as original as the critical role crew and make distinct characters instead of being copycats.

Completely agree with all of this; Critical Role shows new players a way to play the game that isn't just hack-and-slash dice rolling, and instead shows off how fun it can be to actually create a character with flaws and a personality. My daughter is 14 and started running a D&D campaign for her friends after starting up on campaign 2, and she's trying to do voices and make fun NPCs, because that's what Matt Mercer does and realizes how entertaining it is for the players to participate in a world like that. If new players are expecting you to give the kind of campaign a professional voice actor who in lots of ways is a professional DM, then your players have expectations that are bad and should feel bad.

D&D is as popular as it's ever been (if not more popular than it's ever been), and Stranger Things and Critical Role are a huge part of that. So people are recreating Critical Role characters. I used to play superhero games like Champions, and everybody was recreating Wolverine and Spider-Man. I'm guessing DMs 15 years ago were dealing with everybody constantly remaking characters from Lord of the Rings instead. It's just what people know about, so they go with it.

[ciarannihill]

And weapon reach (which at least I like in theory, but it was clearly a lost battle). I do wish that they had re-balanced 2e weapons after they cut reach and WvAC, as there was nearly no reason not to use a longsword, longbow, or 2h sword (if your class allowed).

More in depth weapon statistics is something that I love and would love in DnD, but totally understand why it's not there (lots of complexity without much interesting depth, raises the barrier to entry and makes weapon choice even more of an optimization tool that it is presently).
Having said that, allowing justification for why someone would use a Scimitar (aka curved sword) over a Rapier (aka thrusting sword) would be cool, but in 5E (unless it's because of proficiency issue or for TWF without the feat) it would almost never be correct to do so. Same with Hand Axe vs Light Hammer.

It would be nice for every weapon type to have an advantage only they have, but I get why that's not a reasonable within 5E, unless you houserule it with a group that's okay with it.

[MaxWilson]

RE: weapon speed factors, another 5E annoyance is that they dropped initiative modifiers from the game, but then forgot to boost the Power Word line of spells. Winning initiative is the whole point of those spells: casting time 1 instead of the usual casting time 9 for 9th level spells like Prismatic Sphere/Shapechange/Mordenkainen's Disjunction means you have a much better chance to actually get your spell off before someone sticks a knife in you.

5E should have modelled this by giving Power Word: Stun/Pain/Kill/etc. some kind of action economy advantage. If Power Word: Pain could be cast via a reaction that you can take at any time, it would be a pretty good spell, with the right feel for a real power word spell. If instead it were a bonus action to cast, it would be an okay-ish spell for emergencies (you could at least combine it with a Disengage or Dodge). Instead it's just a weak 7th level spell, almost completely dominated by spells like Forcecage.

[microstyles]

Regarding the Djinn/Efreet discussion, I checked my MM and found that it actually uses Djinn/Efreet as plural, and Djinni/Efreeti as singular. According to the "Jinn" article on Wikipedia, that usage is actually correct, much to my surprise. The Ifrit article is inconclusive (uses "Ifrits"), and I wasn't able to find any more conclusive source before I got bored. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to work the same way though.

Links:
Jinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn)/Ifrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit)

[N810]

More in depth weapon statistics is something that I love and would love in DnD, but totally understand why it's not there (lots of complexity without much interesting depth, raises the barrier to entry and makes weapon choice even more of an optimization tool that it is presently).
Having said that, allowing justification for why someone would use a Scimitar (aka curved sword) over a Rapier (aka thrusting sword) would be cool, but in 5E (unless it's because of proficiency issue or for TWF without the feat) it would almost never be correct to do so. Same with Hand Axe vs Light Hammer.

It would be nice for every weapon type to have an advantage only they have, but I get why that's not a reasonable within 5E, unless you houserule it with a group that's okay with it.

I have a saved link to an expanded weapons article:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420058-5e-advanced-weapon-properties-(a-gnomish-look-at-it)
it seems like a lot more fun, if a bit complicated.

[MaxWilson]

Could be worse. They could want to fight a gazeebo

Or to take control of the Head of Vecna.


Regarding the Djinn/Efreet discussion, I checked my MM and found that it actually uses Djinn/Efreet as plural, and Djinni/Efreeti as singular. According to the "Jinn" article on Wikipedia, that usage is actually correct, much to my surprise. The Ifrit article is inconclusive (uses "Ifrits"), and I wasn't able to find any more conclusive source before I got bored. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to work the same way though.

Links:
Jinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn)/Ifrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit)

Thanks for that. Apparently I owe WotC's copy editors an apology on "djinni". The ifrit one still seems clearly wrong though, according to Wikipedia. "Ifrit" is definitely the correct singular.

[Willie the Duck]

Thanks for that. Apparently I owe WotC's copy editors an apology on "djinni". The ifrit one still seems clearly wrong though, according to Wikipedia. "Ifrit" is definitely the correct singular.

I think microstyles has the right of it--they assumed the two worked the same way

[Laserlight]

I'm a bit peeved about this... the show got it completely wrong!

"The Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray [Gell-Mann]'s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."

— Michael Crichton

[Willie the Duck]

That's a good point. This is cherry picking our game of choice when dramatic fiction television routinely gets everything else equally as wrong. My lawyers complain about Boston Legal/ The Practice/ whatever is on now, and programmers love The IT Crowd/Dilbert (a comic, but still), but acknowledge that they aren't realistic. Doctors with ER/Grey's Anatomy. Police officers and lawyers gnash their teeth at crime scene and police procedurals. Why would we assume that a D&D-specific one would do it better?

Edit: oh, and if you like Gell-Mann, you would love hearing him and Mike Nesmith (yes, the Monkee) riffing off each other. Can't find the youtube right now, but here's (https://www.wired.com/2000/12/nesmith/) an article.

[Lord Torath]

Or to take control of the Head of Vecna.This one always cracks me up. "Yes, I'm going to cut off my own head, put "Vecna's" head in its place, and expect to be able to get special powers from it!"

I can't see how doing that would accomplish anything beyond giving Vecna a new body (yours), assuming it's actually his head in the first place. :smallsigh: I mean, welding Unicrom's head to Cybertron doesn't give Cybertron any new and exciting abilities. It gives Unicrom new and exciting abilities he hasn't had since he was decapitated. :smallamused:

[MaxWilson]

I can't see how doing that would accomplish anything beyond giving Vecna a new body (yours), assuming it's actually his head in the first place. :smallsigh: I mean, welding Unicrom's head to Cybertron doesn't give Cybertron any new and exciting abilities. It gives Unicrom new and exciting abilities he hasn't had since he was decapitated. :smallamused:

I love the way you put that. :)

[Willie the Duck]

Maybe those are the questions you are supposed to be asking the DM as you hear rumors that the head exists in the upcoming dungeon.

In my experience, the Head of Vecna is one of those things whose notoriety killed any chance of it occurring in one's game. By the time the DM had heard of it, everyone had heard of it. I've been told that someone in my gaming circle fell for the HoV trick and cut off their character's head, but it is always in the form of 'a friend of a friend knew a guy who... '

[ZorroGames]

Not watch TV but correcting a player (new or grognard) to your game reality is just part of the job.

[ciarannihill]

I have a saved link to an expanded weapons article:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420058-5e-advanced-weapon-properties-(a-gnomish-look-at-it)
it seems like a lot more fun, if a bit complicated.

This kind of takes the basic idea and overcorrects almost like making all weapons magic weapons in terms of abilities and such.

I just meant things like, somehow mechanically denote how curved blades slash deeper due to their contact area relative to straight blades, but straight blade have an advantage in thrusting. I mean why not allow for multiple damage types for different weapons that have different damage dice based on the weapon? Scimitars can thrust to deal piercing damage, but obviously they can't match a Rapier for that, but they can slash tremendously well type of thing. For an example in super rough mock-up form:


Scimitars: 1d8 Slashing, 1d4 Piercing. Finesse
Long Sword: 1d6 Slashing, 1d6 Piercing, 1d4 Bludgeoning (murder stroke). Versatile Slashing 1d8
Rapiers: 1d4 Slashing, 1d8 Piercing. Finesse

Like I said, it's super rough, but as a way of granting players more potential options/methods of using their weapons while also making even more niche weapons feel specialized or flexible to differentiate themselves from a clear power-level hierarchy. Lots of weapons in history had multiple purposes in combat (Warhammers with Picks on the reverse of the hammer head, for example), why not allow weapons in DnD to do the same?

But once again I totally understand why 5E didn't bother with this, and frankly unless I was building a system from scratch or heavily modifying one I wouldn't go so in depth, because as with most things the more rules you layer the more glaring the missing ones are, for example: "Why don't Shotels or Sickles avoid extra AC from shields? Their purpose was the ability to strike around enemy shields!" The less you abstract a thing overall, the less justifiable other abstractions are.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm guessing DMs 15 years ago were dealing with everybody constantly remaking characters from Lord of the Rings instead. It's just what people know about, so they go with it.

Ugh, I still do this. Granted I was making Strider clones in every game I could long before the Peter Jackson films came out.

[Callak_Remier]

In Mordekainen tome of foes there is a Monster called a NightWalker. CR 20. But if you scaled it down you could make the monster similar to the Creature from Stranger things

[Asmotherion]

This one always cracks me up. "Yes, I'm going to cut off my own head, put "Vecna's" head in its place, and expect to be able to get special powers from it!"

I can't see how doing that would accomplish anything beyond giving Vecna a new body (yours), assuming it's actually his head in the first place. :smallsigh: I mean, welding Unicrom's head to Cybertron doesn't give Cybertron any new and exciting abilities. It gives Unicrom new and exciting abilities he hasn't had since he was decapitated. :smallamused:

That's kinda the D&D version of "Don't do everything you read about on the internet". "Don't do all the obscure magical things a talking magical artifact tells you to do". Seems legit. Now I just HAVE to make a Head of Vecana Artifact, and see if I can convince someone to use it. It will be hilarious. Thanks for the idea. XD

PS: Yes, I do realise I'm breaching my own rule, and I don't care. I'm chaotic like that.

[MaxWilson]

That's kinda the D&D version of "Don't do everything you read about on the internet". "Don't do all the obscure magical things a talking magical artifact tells you to do". Seems legit. Now I just HAVE to make a Head of Vecana Artifact, and see if I can convince someone to use it. It will be hilarious. Thanks for the idea. XD

Thank Steve Jackson: the story is originally his. :)


Many years ago (back when we all were still playing D & D), I ran a game where I pitted two groups against each other.

Several members of Group One came up with the idea of luring Group Two into a trap. You remember the Hand of Vecna and the Eye of Vecna that were artifacts in the old D&D world where if you cut off your hand (or your eye) and replaced it with the Hand of Vecna (or the Eye) you'd get new awesome powers? Well, Group One thought up The Head of Vecna.

Group One spread rumors all over the countryside (even paying Bards to spread the word about this artifact rumored to exist nearby). They even went so far as to get a real head and place it under some weak traps to help with the illusion. Unfortunately, they forgot to let ALL the members of their group in on the secret plan (I suspect it was because they didn't want the Druid to get caught and tell the enemy about this trap of theirs, or maybe because they didn't want him messing with things).

The Druid in group One heard about this new artifact and went off in search of it himself (I believe to help prove himself to the party members...) Well, after much trial and tribulation, he found it; deactivated (or set off) all the traps; and took his "prize" off into the woods for examination. He discovered that it did not radiate magic (a well known trait of artifacts) and smiled gleefully.

I wasn't really worried since he was alone and I knew that there was no way he could CUT HIS OWN HEAD OFF. Alas I was mistaken as the Druid promptly summoned some carnivorous apes and instructed them to use his own scimitar and cut his head off (and of course quickly replacing it with the Head of Vecna...)

Some time later, Group one decided to find the Druid and to check on the trap. They found the headless body (and the two heads) and realized that they had erred in their plan (besides laughing at the character who had played the Druid)...The Head of Vecna still had BOTH eyes! They corrected this mistake and reset their traps and the Head for it's real intended victims...

Group Two, by this time, had heard of the powerful artifact and decided that it bore investigating since, if true, they could use it to destroy Group One. After much trial and tribulation, they found the resting place of The Head of Vecna! The were particularly impressed with the cunning traps surrounding the site (one almost missed his save against the weakest poison known to man). They recovered the Head and made off to a safe area.

Group Two actually CAME TO BLOWS (several rounds of fighting) against each other argueing over WHO WOULD GET THEIR HEAD CUT OFF! Several greedy players had to be hurt and restrained before it was decided who would be the recipient of the great powers bestowed by the Head... The magician was selected and one of them promptly cut his head off. As the player was lifting The Head of Vecna to emplace it on it's new body, another argument broke out and they spent several minutes shouting and yelling. Then, finally, they put the Head onto the character.

Well, of course, the Head simply fell off the lifeless body. All members of Group Two began yelling and screaming at each other (and at me) and then, on their own, decided that they had let too much time pass between cutting off the head of a hopeful recipient and put the Head of Vecna onto the body.

SO THEY DID IT AGAIN!... [killing another PC]

In closing, it should be said that I never even cracked a smile as all this was going on. After the second PC was slaughtered, I had to give in (my side was hurting)...

And Group Two blamed ME for all of that...

[ciarannihill]

Thank Steve Jackson: the story is originally his. :)

Oh my god I'm reading this at work and I'm trying to hold in my laughter. I'm kind of projecting these circumstances onto my own group and it's hilarious.

[MeeposFire]

The house-rules thing is a thing Matt is pretty conscious of and actually makes sure to mention on the show that is a house-rule of theirs, so you can point it out to your players that they should pay more attention to the warnings given in the show, if they are really all that great of fans. Matt runs with a bunch of house rules, some to make his way of running a game more exciting and others to give the characters more to do every round.

Making characters based on the ones presented in the show is a problem we've had since bloody Drizzt Do'Urden, I wouldn't worry about it. The humor thing is also not a thing that should bother you, it's just how we express and share culture with eachother.

You could tell your players that you don't really do dream sequences as they don't really serve your games plot any purposes, unless your characters are insane.

As for expecting people to be voice-actors, well... Step up your roleplaying game, I guess? (They do point out in the show several times to not expect things to go the same way in your home game as they are professional voice actors, but I guess fans overlook this kind of stuff.) Honestly, you should just tell your players to be as original as the critical role crew and make distinct characters instead of being copycats.

Before Drizzt people were trying to make Conan and other characters so the idea of trying to play as something you have read or seen has been there from the start of the game (on Conan there were a lot of conversations in Dragon Mag back in the day on how best to represent the character and what changes were needed to make it happen).

[Asmotherion]

Thank Steve Jackson: the story is originally his. :)
This is priceless XD

I'm just not sure how long I could hold a pokerface like that. First kill, perhaps. But by the seccond kill I'd at the very least crack a smile. It takes real skill to conseal this like that. Well done indeed.

[GlenSmash!]

Thank Steve Jackson: the story is originally his. :)

Oh man. Just one of the many reasons the man is a legend.

[Finback]

That's a good point. This is cherry picking our game of choice when dramatic fiction television routinely gets everything else equally as wrong. My lawyers complain about Boston Legal/ The Practice/ whatever is on now, and programmers love The IT Crowd/Dilbert (a comic, but still), but acknowledge that they aren't realistic. Doctors with ER/Grey's Anatomy. Police officers and lawyers gnash their teeth at crime scene and police procedurals. Why would we assume that a D&D-specific one would do it better?


Mine is palaeo. I didn't stop yelling at the first episode of "Primeval" for about fifteen minutes after the lead failed to recognise a photo of a GORGONOPSIAN WALKING DOWN A PATH. AAAAAUUUUUUUGH. I couldn't get past the third episode. My partner literally took the remote off me, told me to stop yelling, and turned the TV off.

[Expected]

Before Drizzt people were trying to make Conan and other characters so the idea of trying to play as something you have read or seen has been there from the start of the game (on Conan there were a lot of conversations in Dragon Mag back in the day on how best to represent the character and what changes were needed to make it happen).

It's the same reason why endorsement advertisements work--we want to emulate the behaviors of people we admire.

In my experience, I remember when Final Fantasy VII came out in America--there were so many people who suddenly wanted to learn how to use katanas and swords because of the long katanas and oversized swords depicted in the game (none of which were as effective in battle, by the way, as their appropriately sized counterparts).

Regardless, any exposure is a good thing because it brings more potential players as a result.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm guessing DMs 15 years ago were dealing with everybody constantly remaking characters from Lord of the Rings instead.

Yea, D&D has always had the ''media zombie" players.

Lord of the Rings/Conan/Grey Mouser

For the awful longest time: Drizzit

Dragonbal Z stuff

Anime Stuff

Super Heroes

[Foxhound438]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120609.gif

wow, no need to make it personal

[Foxhound438]

Yea, D&D has always had the ''media zombie" players.

Lord of the Rings/Conan/Grey Mouser

For the awful longest time: Drizzit

Dragonbal Z stuff

Anime Stuff

Super Heroes

yeah, if I had a platelette stuck to the inside of one of my brain's blood vessels for every time I've heard "I want to be x character from y", I'd have a stronk.

[Mordaedil]

To be fair to Dragonball Z fans, them always playing monks and failing to do what they imagined with the class was kind of funny (but also really sad because they'd usually get really huffy about their class being awful and I remember a huge amount of grognardy fighting where they declared wizards were more like DBZ characters and they defended the monks to their death and wanted to be more like wizards)

[Knaight]

Three things.

1) Media representations are always distorted, fictional media representations more so. I assure you this is nowhere near as bad as the physics in a typical action movie, or the biology in anything that even tangentially involves biology.

2) Even if that wasn't the case D&D itself is full of material blatantly ripped off and bizarrely altered from a whole host of other sources. Turnabout is fair play - and I suspect the people behind said bizarrely altered ripped off material would be totally on board with that.

3) Chillax. Take an ax, stick it in the freezer. Set up a logging camp in Antarctica. Go to Mars, establish a foundry, use it to fuel an ax factory, then store those axes outside away from all temperature control.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Yea, D&D has always had the ''media zombie" players.

Lord of the Rings/Conan/Grey Mouser

For the awful longest time: Drizzit

Dragonbal Z stuff

Anime Stuff

Super Heroes

I really don't think that's a bad thing; particularly when people are new to this hobby, it's much easier to take an existing character and adapt it, rather than thinking through the whole process at the start. I mean, 5e's rules have a certain elegant simplicity to them that really appeals to me, as I think there's a great balance between providing structure and allowing freedom. That being said, if you're not familiar with RPGs in general, there's huge amounts of things to remember. I've got my attribute bonus, and I add proficiency in some cases but not others and is this an action or a bonus action and did I use my reaction this turn? There are loads of things to remember, and that's even before the idea of inhabiting an actual character with a personality and flaws pop up. Just starting with Strider or Drizzt or any number of other pre-existing characters means someone can get started, and then, hopefully, they'd flesh it out. Back when I made my first Champions character years and years ago, it was a character with blue skin who could teleport themselves and other people, and was clearly based on Dr. Manhattan to a certain extent. As time went by, I got more creative and unique, but starting with that familiar template helped get me started.

I'm absolutely OK with players taking some established character from Critical Role or LotR or their favorite fantasy series, and hopefully they'll adapt it and tweak it and do something creative and unique down the road. If not, who cares if we're all having fun?

[No brains]

I too think that "media zombie" shouldn't be as heavy a pejorative as it is because I see it more like the seed of another person becoming creative. People see something cool and are like "I want to do something like that" and then they take the first step on their journey of finding out how disparate they can be from something while still being cool "like" it.

[Laserlight]

I too think that "media zombie" shouldn't be as heavy a pejorative as it is because I see it more like the seed of another person becoming creative. People see something cool and are like "I want to do something like that" and then they take the first step on their journey of finding out how disparate they can be from something while still being cool "like" it.

I've had several players, relatively new to D&D, who had a hard time coming up with character concepts other than "I want to be Xena" or "I want to play Green Arrow" or whatever. If she wants to BE Xena or Brienne, then it's a bit of a problem; I've had to explain "you won't have Authorial Favor, so you won't be able to do everything she can do", and people are likely to argue over "the real Xena wouldn't really be like X, she should have be able to do this thing."

But if he wants to be someone LIKE Green Arrow, then it's just a capsule description which helps communicate the direction to the build, and is shorter than "okay, so you want to come from a noble or wealthy background, and have an interest in city politics, so you need some CHA and some social skills, and you need Disguise, and for combat you want to use archery and related powers and a DEX build rather than plate armor and STR". And even after you've been around a while, you're likely to take inspiration from existing people / characters rather than making things up from whole cloth. If "taking a character you heard about and making it your own" was good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for my D&D character.

[Willie the Duck]

1) Media representations are always distorted, fictional media representations more so. I assure you this is nowhere near as bad as the physics in a typical action movie, or the biology in anything that even tangentially involves biology.

Oh gods, think about how many bad Sci-Fis have someone's character taking/discovering/etc. the 'next step' in evolution?

[MaxWilson]

I too think that "media zombie" shouldn't be as heavy a pejorative as it is because I see it more like the seed of another person becoming creative. People see something cool and are like "I want to do something like that" and then they take the first step on their journey of finding out how disparate they can be from something while still being cool "like" it.

That's a good point. I think this diagram from Bill Buxton's book on design is relevant.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/sQgMG6Q2s5_l7CwZ0wVmr8e_1b6AibowHFKaU4pyln-lnIbIHKBn5cE34U_bCgj786VTH9L9_cyy-rJ9M9Fvb7yN0WV40QXh2rQ9Y0uAqJDduNf_

You can't start at the top--everyone starts near the bottom and works their way up.

[Zonugal]

Yea, D&D has always had the ''media zombie" players.

Lord of the Rings/Conan/Grey Mouser

For the awful longest time: Drizzit

Dragonbal Z stuff

Anime Stuff

Super Heroes

This is why I always stress that you should try to adapt your character into the narrative/setting of the game.

Just don't show up with a pure replica of Steve Rogers, be a Steve Rogers that grew up in the Forgotten Realms.

But... I am a bit biased in making D&D characters based off of popular culture figures.

[Finback]

Just don't show up with a pure replica of Steve Rogers, be a Steve Rogers that grew up in the Forgotten Realms.


So, I *might* have once put together a Minimates figure (they were like Lego) out of some parts, and put Cap's helmet onto Frodo, and made Captain Arda.

[username1]

I have had this problem also. I started a new game with some new players. However one of them was a huge fan of stranger things, and always was complaining about why they couldn’t find a demigorgon. He also was complaining about why we didn’t have minautures for every monster, and my minis looked bad. Eventually I got tiered of him, told him to get of his stranger things high horse and told him if he were to fight the demigorgon he would die. He didn’t believe me, so we had a simulated fight. Round one, they are dead.

[GlenSmash!]

I have had this problem also. I started a new game with some new players. However one of them was a huge fan of stranger things, and always was complaining about why they couldn’t find a demigorgon. He also was complaining about why we didn’t have minautures for every monster, and my minis looked bad. Eventually I got tiered of him, told him to get of his stranger things high horse and told him if he were to fight the demigorgon he would die. He didn’t believe me, so we had a simulated fight. Round one, they are dead.

I would have just told him to go buy miniatures and bring them to the game.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I would have just told him to go buy miniatures and bring them to the game.

I would have told him "get the hell away from my table", as he sounds like a pretty awful player. The Demogorgon thing is just basically wanting to recreate a show he likes, which is understandable, but the "your minis look like crap" thing combined with that just screams some unpleasant, entitled twit who's going to always be a pain.

[GlenSmash!]

I would have told him "get the hell away from my table", as he sounds like a pretty awful player. The Demogorgon thing is just basically wanting to recreate a show he likes, which is understandable, but the "your minis look like crap" thing combined with that just screams some unpleasant, entitled twit who's going to always be a pain.

Honestly I would never tell a new player to get the hell away form my table.

Newbies have misconceptions. I sure did. Correcting those misconceptions gently goes a long way further than turning someone away form the hobby completely. IMHO.

I can swallow my pride enough to say "Yeah my minis aren't the best. Why don't you bring some next time?". There's a fair chance that after looking at prices they'll come back with a different attitude.

Or I could say "Yeah my mini's aren't the best, so lets play Theater of the Mind instead?".

Either way I'll have made a shot at educating an ignoramus.

[Darth Ultron]

I have had this problem also. I started a new game with some new players. However one of them was a huge fan of stranger things, and always was complaining about why they couldn’t find a demigorgon.

Well, I'd let such a player ''find a demigorgon" no problem...hehe.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Honestly I would never tell a new player to get the hell away form my table.

Newbies have misconceptions. I sure did. Correcting those misconceptions gently goes a long way further than turning someone away form the hobby completely. IMHO.

I can swallow my pride enough to say "Yeah my minis aren't the best. Why don't you bring some next time?". There's a fair chance that after looking at prices they'll come back with a different attitude.

Or I could say "Yeah my mini's aren't the best, so lets play Theater of the Mind instead?".

Either way I'll have made a shot at educating an ignoramus.

Those kinds of behaviors don't sound "newbie"; they sound like whiny jerks. Saying "I want to fight Demogorgon" is an opportunity to educate the player, and let them know about things like levels and experience and CRs and such, and how Demogorgon is the epic finish to a long campaign. Grumbling about minis like that is just rude as hell, and it's not like somebody with more experience in dice rolling is going to suddenly become more polite. That player is just a ****, and I'd tell them to go away and find myself more fun people to play with.

[GlenSmash!]

Those kinds of behaviors don't sound "newbie"; they sound like whiny jerks. Saying "I want to fight Demogorgon" is an opportunity to educate the player, and let them know about things like levels and experience and CRs and such, and how Demogorgon is the epic finish to a long campaign. Grumbling about minis like that is just rude as hell, and it's not like somebody with more experience in dice rolling is going to suddenly become more polite. That player is just a ****, and I'd tell them to go away and find myself more fun people to play with.

Sure grumbling about minis is rude as hell, but it's very likely the first time this person has seen an actual mini real life, not one created for Stranger Things or lovingly made by a fan for a favorite Critical Role Character and then sent to said characters Player. Or maybe they've quickly googled Hero Forge. It still sounds more to me like they had an expectation that was't realistic, and instead of blowing up at them about it I'd rather first try pointing helping them adjust their expectations to something more realistic.

As for rudeness itself, I've seen people become less rude over time. Especially with an example of how to do things a different way. I find this is particularly true of young people. I shudder at the memory of the ******** I was in my teens and i'm grateful for the people didn't brush me off as a lost cause.

Now this could be a 45 year Old Stranger things fan playing in their first game of D&D, and that would probably change my thinking on the matter somewhat, but I somehow don't think it's as likely as this person being much younger than that.

Anyway, if in the next session I saw the same rudeness I would have a more direct conversation with the player on how that is inappropriate. At that point if the behavior doesn't improve then I would tell the player that it isn't working out.

A little patience would cost me almost nothing, but could result in helping a little turd be a little less turdy.

[username1]

I forgot to mention how that game ended:
Like you have all said the new play was a jerk. I didn’t choose to have him in the game, but others at the table did. I put up with him for a while but after a while it wasn’t even fun anymore. The game broke up, and we haven’t played scence. I learned my lesson, and started a group with people I like.

[GlenSmash!]

I learned my lesson, and started a group with people I like.

This is a very important lesson. The majority of my 5e games are played with longtime friends and it makes a world of difference (but sometimes causes new problems).

[Yuki Akuma]

Yuki's #1 Rule Of Roleplaying: Don't play elfgames with jerkheads.

[RazorChain]

Wait a second? Is somebody butthurt over a show that decides to appropriate a monster from D&D and make it their own?


Jeez, like D&D hasn't taken anyting from myth, legends or folklore? Like Demigorgon for instance :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Next time around I'll complain if somebody changes around Disney's Rasputin from Anastasia

[GlenSmash!]

Wait a second? Is somebody butthurt over a show that decides to appropriate a monster from D&D and make it their own?


Jeez, like D&D hasn't taken anyting from myth, legends or folklore? Like Demigorgon for instance :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Next time around I'll complain if somebody changes around Disney's Rasputin from Anastasia

Oh I'm totally taking Rasputin and making him my next BBEG

(Also Anastasia wasn't Disney)

(still your point was well made.)

[Willie the Duck]

Wait a second? Is somebody butthurt over a show that decides to appropriate a monster from D&D and make it their own?

Well, if you notice, the OP hasn't been back, and the rest of us aren't treating the situation that seriously. So in all likelihood, no, no one is that butthurt. It has been a great way for people to blow off steam, though.

[RazorChain]

Oh I'm totally taking Rasputin and making him my next BBEG

(Also Anastasia wasn't Disney)

(still your point was well made.)

I know but Disney always.... Disney-fies other tales like Anastasia and somebody getting angry if I don't present Rasputin like he was in the Disney movie is the same as getting pissed over Stranger Things not using the D&D version of Demigorgon.

I mean Demigorgon is well known from literature like Paradise Lost and Doctor Faustus

[GlenSmash!]

I know but Disney always.... Disney-fies other tales like Anastasia and somebody getting angry if I don't present Rasputin like he was in the Disney movie is the same as getting pissed over Stranger Things not using the D&D version of Demigorgon.

I mean Demigorgon is well known from literature like Paradise Lost and Doctor Faustus

Oh I get it and like I said it's still a good point, but Anastasia was 20th Century Fox.

But sure Disney did the same to Pocahontas, Powhatan, John Smith, Robin Hood, Merlin, Arthur (Though those last ones are more mythological rather than historical) and lots of others.

I'm just being pedantic. This is the internet after all.

[MeeposFire]

I know but Disney always.... Disney-fies other tales like Anastasia and somebody getting angry if I don't present Rasputin like he was in the Disney movie is the same as getting pissed over Stranger Things not using the D&D version of Demigorgon.

I mean Demigorgon is well known from literature like Paradise Lost and Doctor Faustus

Anastasia was a Don Bluth film (though at that time he was forced to do a stye more like Renaissance Disney). He is the guy that at one point did work for Disney but left and is wel known for movies like "The Secret of Nimh", "American Tale", "All Dogs Go to Heaven", and "The Land Before Time".