Infernal calling comparison

[Scarytincan]

When would you use infernal calling over SGD or conjure elemental? I guess calling could be a replacement for SGD plus planar binding if you strike a good bargain, since no fear of it breaking free in that situation, but otherwise I find that demons and elementals can do anything comparable level devils can do and better

Editing for more specific, looking for mostly stat block /combat /scouting effectiveness comparisons

[Unoriginal]

Demons brought forth by Summon Greater Demon try to kill everyone, and Elementals are intellectualy limited.

Meanwhile, Devils are simply unfriendly, and can be quite smart and powerful.

There are not many things Elementals would do better than Fiends, and among Fiends the Demon will fight you every step of the way.

[Scarytincan]

Demons brought forth by Summon Greater Demon try to kill everyone, and Elementals are intellectualy limited.

Meanwhile, Devils are simply unfriendly, and can be quite smart and powerful.

There are not many things Elementals would do better than Fiends, and among Fiends the Demon will fight you every step of the way.

See I disagree with devils being powerful. Again for the most part, looking purely at stat blocks, anything they bring to the table for a fight, a demon or elemental can bring better.

Yes demons try to kill everyone... For up to 6 rounds, if they make a cha save at disadvantage (using first command to extract true name), and even if they DO break free, they are predictable. They want to kill. That thing. Then that next closest non demon thing. Then the next. And that can be contained nicely by careful placement of summoning, and by all of force (or ball wall of force for a nice ball of death), or counteracted completely with planar binding. If anything I would usually rather lose control of a demon than an elemental of the same CR.

And elementals, yes they are dumb as rocks (and other elemental materials), but I'm not summoning something for tea and a nice chat on the philosophy of halfling butter making. I'm summoning something to control and exploit it, usually in combat or as a scout. Elementals bring the pain, and /or control, and bring the meat (rock?) shield. Generally elementals are way more durable than similar CR fiends, and often hit harder and more accurately. And demons bring a huge variety of mix of pain, meat shield, and some very useful abilities and /or spells.

When you summon a devil, you summon a devil. You can try to persuade it etc, but that's not generally a wizard's strong suit. If you fail... There's a devil on the field being a devil. And if you DO convince it to do your bidding (for that round), something else could have done that purpose better is my argument. They have very few strong abilities, and virtually no spells.

Perhaps I should have phrased things to emphasize a stat block comparison on a per summoning level basis.

[Scarytincan]

I mean the orthon is pretty awesome, but that's one of the last you can summon

[MaxWilson]

When would you use infernal calling over SGD or conjure elemental? I guess calling could be a replacement for SGD plus planar binding if you strike a good bargain, since no fear of it breaking free in that situation, but otherwise I find that demons and elementals can do anything comparable level devils can do and better

I can imagine situations in which I'd want to burn a 6th level slot to summon a Black Abishai and tell it, "Kill everything down that tunnel." Bonus action Hide can be quite powerful, especially if another PC first buffs the Abishai with a Darkness spell. For example, that might turn out to be the best way (or least risky at any rate!) to clear out a beholder lair full of beholders and hobgoblins.

Most of the available summons from that spell are trash, but it only takes a few good ones to be worth it.

P.S. Don't forget that Enhance Ability (Charisma) (concentration) from a druid/cleric/bard, Hex (Wisdom) (concentration) from a warlock, and Cutting Words (penalize Insight) from a Lore Bard can all improve your chances of commanding the thing successfully. It's all about party synergies, not just individual abilities.

P.P.S. Also, you would cast Infernal Calling (Orthon) if you love Arnold Schwarzenegger movies from the 80's that take place in the jungle. Ref: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/8vycam/has_anyone_else_noticed_that_one_of_the_tome_of/

[Scarytincan]

Ya the orthon is amazing XD deff worth getting a scroll for that alone late game, but until then...

I'll see your black abishai and raise you an invisible stalker. One less attack but hits harder, almost double HP and flies faster, with no need for bonus hide or darkness reliance. I did look at that one tho as a possible contender, trying to find some way that devil sight might be a worthy break point... Couldn't quite pull enough weight tho from what I figured. I guess the biggest edge to BA here would be magic weapons? Tho that's not needed in your particular example...

[ad_hoc]

Infernal Calling lasts an hour and you only need to succeed in the one check if you only issue one command.

[Scarytincan]

Well, all three last an hour, even the demon if it breaks free as long as you keep concentrating. But that is a useful tip to keep in mind for people that choose infernal, trying to be efficient in your commands, thanks for pointing that out!

But for my purposes, that can be overcome with planar binding and doesn't address combat effectiveness comparisons :)

[ad_hoc]

Well, all three last an hour, even the demon if it breaks free as long as you keep concentrating. But that is a useful tip to keep in mind for people that choose infernal, trying to be efficient in your commands, thanks for pointing that out!

But for my purposes, that can be overcome with planar binding and doesn't address combat effectiveness comparisons :)

You might want to reword your OP then.

It proposes the question - "When would you use"

Demons are great for wanton destruction.

Devils are better for slightly more subtlety. An example given is 'deliver this message to the queen' but the options are very open ended. For example, you could order the devil to venture into the dungeon and do a task there. Certainly safer to send an expendable creature ahead. They make excellent short term guards. They also make for excellent misdirection of deeds. "I didn't do it, the devil did!"

A demon can be summoned up to 60ft away and while it does last 1 hour, 1 save every 6 seconds will see the demon saving pretty soon.

[Scarytincan]

You might want to reword your OP then.

It proposes the question - "When would you use"

Demons are great for wanton destruction.



A fair recommendation. Done.

[Callak_Remier]

[QUOTE=Unoriginal;23373634]

Meanwhile, Devils are simply unfriendly, and can be quite smart and powerful.


Um What? They want to barter for your soul to turn you into a Lemire for use in the Blood war. They want your eternal Servitude.

How does everyone forget This

Don't get me wrong it's a great spell Thematically. Rping that encounter would be awesome

[Unoriginal]

Um What? They want to barter for your soul to turn you into a Lemire for use in the Blood war. They want your eternal Servitude.

How does everyone forget This

Don't get me wrong it's a great spell Thematically. Rping that encounter would be awesome

I'm not forgetting anything, I'm talking about what the spell says. It summons an unfriendly devil, ie not hostile but not an outgoing ally either.

[Scarytincan]

Um What? They want to barter for your soul to turn you into a Lemire for use in the Blood war. They want your eternal Servitude.

How does everyone forget This

Don't get me wrong it's a great spell Thematically. Rping that encounter would be awesome

But yes this is another reason to go demon to me. A devil is chaotic and violent, but predictable in that sense. A devil you have to expect to try to scheme and twist your words...

[Talking cactus]

[QUOTE=Unoriginal;23373634]

Meanwhile, Devils are simply unfriendly, and can be quite smart and powerful.


Um What? They want to barter for your soul to turn you into a Lemire for use in the Blood war. They want your eternal Servitude.

How does everyone forget This

Don't get me wrong it's a great spell Thematically. Rping that encounter would be awesome

But in the rules it doesn’t state who’s soul they want
It means you could create a deal such as “kill everyone in the village and you can keep their souls”
It means that you can obliterate everyone in the town as they would be commoners and the devil would be happy to oblige

[Bilbron]

When would you use infernal calling over SGD or conjure elemental? I guess calling could be a replacement for SGD plus planar binding if you strike a good bargain, since no fear of it breaking free in that situation, but otherwise I find that demons and elementals can do anything comparable level devils can do and better

Editing for more specific, looking for mostly stat block /combat /scouting effectiveness comparisons

Summon Elemental is a 1 minute cast, so no comparison.

I'm doing a Deep Dive in Summon Greater Demon right now, and it's maybe the most complex spell in the game (alongside Infernal Calling). Seems to me that SGD is much more controllable, in that a fixed DC target is much more manageable vs. a variable Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation check which will often result in a number below your Save DC and only rarely above it. Also in that the Demon lasts only 1d6 rounds vs. 3d6 minutes for the Devil if it goes uncontrolled, and in any case it will specifically only attack nearby enemies as opposed to actively trying to undermine you like the Devil.

Also, haven't taken an exhaustive look at the Devils you can summon, but are you seriously going to get something as good as a Chasme? That thing is like a tactical nuke, and its Blindsight and Poison Immunity combo nicely with the new familiar Stinking Cloud.

Seems like SGD wins by miles, to me.

[Sigreid]

It's a great "bomb". Cast it in the center of a town you're annoyed with, for example, and teleport or fly away.

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis: Failing your diplomacy check w/ the summoned demon results in your inability to overcome necromancy!