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DMThac0
2018-09-17, 10:20 AM
I have a player in my 5e campaign, homebrew, who has given me almost nothing to work with when it comes to his character's motivations and goals. As such I've found myself seriously stalling out when it comes to creating a personalized story arc for him. I'd like to put something together which would make him feel like he's part of the world beyond the generic "hero who does good things". (skip to the bottom for the question)

He's playing a Half-Orc Barbarian of the Totem, and they're about half way through level 6. When the characters were created there was a random table that was used to generate a reason for the character to be in the starting location; his was that he was an orphan of war. The starting point of the game in a coastal town where they were surrounded by all manner of people (phb playable races). They knew a peaceful and fairly uneventful childhood while in this place, and began the game by going through a rite of adulthood. I then had them take a moment and figure out what they wanted their character's goal to be, the "When I grow up I wanna be..." type question. In response I got; "I want to be the general of an army", I inquired for more depth and got little more than that desire reworded.

Since the game has begun I have tossed out a number of things to get responses from him and how his character would act based on events and interactions.

I had him pass within a few miles of the site where it is assumed his tribe had fallen. I had NPCs refer to the site, as well as some books refer to the battle. In the nearest town I had citizens leaving to go rebuilt the outpost, wagons of supplies shipping out. He didn't even bother to explore that part of his history, simply let the opportunity pass by without a word.

I have put a racial struggle between the Orcs/H-Orcs and the humans, the Orchish people feeling that the humans settling on the continent are encroaching on their territories. The humans feel that the Orcish people are nothing short of savages and warmongers, every time they try to create new settlements the Orcish tribes swing through and raze the villages. His character has not risen to any of the comments, accusations, and blatant racism that I've tossed at him.

He has shown nothing but disregard to authority, in the presence of kings and thanes he will not show the respect one would assume should be present. This type of attitude contradicts what his goal is, the general of an army would show respect to their superior.

He has pointed out, out of character, that he has a high intelligence, yet he is willing to let other treat him like he's some big oaf. Up and to the point where one of the fellow players would simply point and go "Oh look, a door...quick go smash." while looking at him.

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He has just recently expressed that he feels like I've ignoring his character again. I pointed out, again, that I have little to work with and it's making it hard to present a strong story for him. I have asked many questions to get inside his head and he doesn't give any answers that help, "I'm not sure", "I dunno", "I'm just here to have fun", "I trust you to come up with something" etc.

What I'm asking is: What kind of story would you put together for a H-Orc Barbarian of the Totem who wants to be "The general of an army" yet doesn't rise to racial taunts, doesn't show respect to authority, doesn't seem interested in the reason he's an orphan, and doesn't play up to his character's intelligence. **If you wish to know more about anything in the game please ask, I'll flesh out anything you need to know**

Pelle
2018-09-17, 10:40 AM
I have a player in my 5e campaign, homebrew, who has given me almost nothing to work with when it comes to his character's motivations and goals. As such I've found myself seriously stalling out when it comes to creating a personalized story arc for him. [...]

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He has just recently expressed that he feels like I've ignoring his character again. I pointed out, again, that I have little to work with and it's making it hard to present a strong story for him. I have asked many questions to get inside his head and he doesn't give any answers that help, "I'm not sure", "I dunno", "I'm just here to have fun", "I trust you to come up with something" etc.


If the player doesn't want to work with you, to provide motivation and so on for his character, then just don't. And if the player complains about it, make it clear that it his his lack of contribution that makes it difficult for you. I also have players that always fail to make characters with strong motivations, but they don't demand special treatment however. One tip though; ignore the character, and try to provide something that the player would specifically be interested in.

SirGraystone
2018-09-17, 11:20 AM
Not all players want the same level of roles playing, some are happy just killing stuff, and don't want to explore their own characters background. My advice would be stop worrying about creating a personalized arc for him, and just write your story to include the other players backstories.

DMThac0
2018-09-17, 11:38 AM
One tip though; ignore the character, and try to provide something that the player would specifically be interested in.

I'm starting to lean in this direction, as prompting his character seems to be falling short. I'm kinda hoping that someone might drop a nugget of inspiration in here as well..maybe get the creative juices flowing as it were.


Not all players want the same level of roles playing, some are happy just killing stuff, and don't want to explore their own characters background. My advice would be stop worrying about creating a personalized arc for him, and just write your story to include the other players backstories.

That was my initial response, since he hadn't given me much to work with, I simply let him ride along. Now he's starting to make comments about wanting more, but is still not giving me much to work with. He's starting to realize that his character is boring compared to the other players' characters, I hope this will prompt him to start putting a bit more effort forward. I would, however, like to preempt him by at least having a couple ideas jotted down before this happens so I can make it feel seamless.

Lord Torath
2018-09-17, 12:01 PM
I'd ask him a bunch of specific questions regarding his character, something along these lines (and take copious notes!):

What have been your favorite parts of the campaign so far (and why)? What's been the most fun? What's been the least fun? When have you felt most ignored?

Does your character still want to become the general of an army? Generals are responsible to a higher authority, generally a king or its equivalent. Your character has not shown much respect for anyone with the authority to put him in command of an army. What steps do you think would be required to become a general? If you were looking to hire a general, what type of person would you be looking for? Is your PC this type of person? These are the sorts of things the leaders in this society expect of their generals <list the traits if they differ from what your player thinks are important in a general>. Is your character willing to become this sort of a person? What do you think is a good way to show the regional leaders your character possesses these traits?

I've thrown out several plot hooks to your character, involving investigating the eradication of his tribe, <insert other plot hooks you've thrown his way>. Is there a reason you've ignored these? What sorts of plot hooks appeal to you?

Is your character interested in exploring his origins, and finding out who his parents were and what they may have left for him?
I've tossed out several opportunities to explore your PC's race, and how that relates to his identity. Are you at all interested in exploring what it means to be a half-orc in this society?

Your character has a pretty high intelligence, but you don't generally show it. How do you imagine his intelligence? How do you think he would respond to someone calling him an idiot?

I'd like to give you some opportunities to show off. What do you think are your character's best points?

Ask other questions as needed, but try to keep them narrow in focus. Show him explicitly when you have tried to give him opportunities to be the center of attention. At the end of this discussion, ask the player if he wants to change his character's long-term and short-term goals.

Part of the problem is that this player probably doesn't know what he wants. These questions are an attempt to ferret it out, without just saying "What do you want?" General questions tend to get general answers, so you need to get specific.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-09-17, 12:27 PM
You don't necessarily need someone above you in a formal hierarchy to be a general of an army. It just means you'd need to build an army yourself and not have it tied to a kingdom or organization. Roaming mercenaries, for example.

comk59
2018-09-17, 12:48 PM
I'll be honest, it sounds like you might need to be a bit more proactive in your quest to get him invested. Maybe have him be given a field promotion during a frantic, chaotic battle. You can let him command troops (not as a general, obviously, but we all have to start somewhere), and then after he helps win the battle, assuming he's a good commander, he'll have to interact with his superiors.

Alternatively, if he decides to start his own mercenary army with blackjack and strippers, where he gets to be the one in charge, then he's in for a world of paperwork and financing. Soldiers, even mercenary ones, require pay, training, and supplies. And if the life expectancy isn't great, a lot of soldiers might decide to try their luck elsewhere.

Being in charge of an army is a goal that requires a lot of planning and interacting with people. Maybe see if he's really committed to that?

DMThac0
2018-09-17, 01:06 PM
I'd ask him a bunch of specific questions regarding his character, something along these lines (and take copious notes!):
(snip)
Part of the problem is that this player probably doesn't know what he wants. These questions are an attempt to ferret it out, without just saying "What do you want?" General questions tend to get general answers, so you need to get specific.

You proposed a few questions in there I haven't asked him yet, it's an interesting approach. I don't get much time with him outside of the game to talk like that, maybe it's the piece that's missing.


You don't necessarily need someone above you in a formal hierarchy to be a general of an army. It just means you'd need to build an army yourself and not have it tied to a kingdom or organization. Roaming mercenaries, for example.

Yea, I'm toying with the idea of him acquiring a mcguffin from a big bad that they're in conflict with. It has the potential to allow for some interesting story development as it can tie in with him being a Totemic Barbarian.


I'll be honest, it sounds like you might need to be a bit more proactive in your quest to get him invested. Maybe have him be given a field promotion during a frantic, chaotic battle. You can let him command troops (not as a general, obviously, but we all have to start somewhere), and then after he helps win the battle, assuming he's a good commander, he'll have to interact with his superiors.


This is something that's crossed my mind. There's a different big bad from the one I mentioned a to Koo who is very close to trying to invade the continent that they players are on. I may have him become a leader of a contingency of soldiers during one of the initial skirmishes and see how that plays out.

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The issue is that I don't want to stuff him into a story arc if I can avoid it, however a lot of what you all have been saying is that I may have to...

Hooligan
2018-09-17, 11:23 PM
...The issue is that I don't want to stuff him into a story arc if I can avoid it, however a lot of what you all have been saying is that I may have to...

No you don't. You do not have to do either of those things.

Now look here squire: Despite his statements to the contrary, this mope sounds like he is content to hang out, murder bad guys, and grab loot with his bros....and that's a fine way to play the game. Until his behavior proves otherwise, I'd continue to operate as such.

You do not have to stuff him into a story arc or create one for him. In fact, do not do those things as it sounds as though he will not engage with the story elements you create with his character in mind...at least not in a way that you will find to be satisfying. And then at least one of you will be unhappy. DMing is a lot of work, no need to make more for yourself especially if that work will be in vain.

Here's what you should do: Next time he mewls about his boring character not feeling important just tell him "I'm working on making something just for you" but do no such thing. Perhaps allow him to occasionally **** on some king or stodgy nobleman since it seems that is what he enjoys; maybe even let him kick their ass with no consequences.

DMThac0
2018-09-18, 09:20 AM
No you don't. You do not have to do either of those things.

Now look here squire: Despite his statements to the contrary, this mope sounds like he is content to hang out, murder bad guys, and grab loot with his bros....and that's a fine way to play the game. Until his behavior proves otherwise, I'd continue to operate as such.

You do not have to stuff him into a story arc or create one for him. In fact, do not do those things as it sounds as though he will not engage with the story elements you create with his character in mind...at least not in a way that you will find to be satisfying. And then at least one of you will be unhappy. DMing is a lot of work, no need to make more for yourself especially if that work will be in vain.

Here's what you should do: Next time he mewls about his boring character not feeling important just tell him "I'm working on making something just for you" but do no such thing. Perhaps allow him to occasionally **** on some king or stodgy nobleman since it seems that is what he enjoys; maybe even let him kick their ass with no consequences.

Funny you should say that, so far that is the route I have been taking. I've presented him with the "I've got an idea for you, we just haven't reached that part yet." comment a couple times now. I'd like to see him get the ambition to make something happen, but for now, I am going to keep tossing the hooks out and see if he bites.

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-18, 02:22 PM
Ok - a suggestion:

Whenever your party hits a tavern, or a market, or a roadside gathering, or a caravanserai, or whatever, have some group of random mooks exclaim:

Sweet merciless powers below, you're Half-Orc Barbarian of the Totem? Wow, they say you're among the greatest warriors the land has ever seen!

Lord of the Oceans Depth, you're HOBOT? Like, the real HOBOT? I heard some say you may even be a greater warrior than Sekim Hawass Akiram, the Blades of the Moon Eclipse, who killed a hundred men over a bowl of rice.

Just keep doing this, time and again, mentioning at some point that Sekim Hawass Akiram has sworn to put this other great warrior to shame, and preferably in the ground.

Just keep playing this up. Have the tavern bard tell the tale about how Sekim Hawass Akiram held the pass singlehandedly against the Hordes of Un-Abathor. Of how Sekim Hawass Akiram close a moonbeam in twain to impress a maiden.

Then announce, finally, that Sekim Hawass Akiram is in town. Looking for HOBOT. Wanting to finally settle the score: Who is the greatest warrior of the land. Set a time, and a place. Have the town in celebration and expectation.

The evening before the great match, have our friend meet a charming, redheaded elfgirl in a bar. Flirt, joke, tease. Whatever.

Obviously, Sekim Hawass Akiram is the elf girl. If you play it right, your half-orc barbarian will have never thought to ask the gender, or race, of this great warrior. He will also drink the poisoned beer without second thought, and be in such poor shape the next day that you can get away with her beating him, easily.

You can play this game forever. Have her visit his room at night, after cheating, and beating him. Have that play out however - just make sure she gets away alive. Or have them have sex. Or whatever. But this sort of thing can literally work pretty much forever.

YohaiHorosha
2018-09-18, 09:47 PM
The player doesn't quite seem to get how roleplaying works.

1) tell the player how it works
2) or don't - don't wait for the player, just do the things that put the player in the positions. The result is irrelevant. For example, player wants to be a general. Just make them a general. It can be the trope "we have no strong ones to lead us, you look strong, you are our leader." Or the trope "you are the one the prophesy fortold". Now what? And build the story around that.

DMThac0
2018-09-19, 09:19 AM
Ok - a suggestion:

(Snip) But this sort of thing can literally work pretty much forever.

It sounds like a lot of fun, I've been toying with a NPC who works like that, however it's directed at the group as a whole. I could try to make it focus on him, I'll have to see if he rises to that kind of situation.


The player doesn't quite seem to get how roleplaying works.

1) tell the player how it works
2) or don't - don't wait for the player, just do the things that put the player in the positions. The result is irrelevant. For example, player wants to be a general. Just make them a general. It can be the trope "we have no strong ones to lead us, you look strong, you are our leader." Or the trope "you are the one the prophesy fortold". Now what? And build the story around that.

This type of situation may present itself naturally, depending on how one of the stories continues to play out. I understand that you're trying to give the player what they want and if it does/doesn't work it's almost all on the player. I'm not a fan of stuffing a player's character into a story for the sake of giving them a story, it seems insincere and I wouldn't be pleased with the situation either.

YohaiHorosha
2018-09-19, 10:39 AM
It sounds like a lot of fun, I've been toying with a NPC who works like that, however it's directed at the group as a whole. I could try to make it focus on him, I'll have to see if he rises to that kind of situation.



This type of situation may present itself naturally, depending on how one of the stories continues to play out. I understand that you're trying to give the player what they want and if it does/doesn't work it's almost all on the player. I'm not a fan of stuffing a player's character into a story for the sake of giving them a story, it seems insincere and I wouldn't be pleased with the situation either.

Let's break this down:
1) you're a sandbox gm - you build a world, let players find what they like, and you roll with it. You leave hooks which players van either accept or they don't. Example: new town, there are 4 people who can hook the players into a story. The players either engage with one or all or they move on. Example: person 1 has a lost child, person 2 needs special herbs in a dangerous cave, person 3 needs somebody dead, person 4 needs you to deliver a message to next town. Players choose one, all, or none and move on. (I get this isn't true sandbox, but you get the gist)
2) you narrate plot. Characters make hard decisions and drive their character's stories within that plot. They either do things or don't, which either affect the plot or they don't. Example: war is coming, your lands are in danger, what are you going to do about it? They can twiddle their thumbs, run away, make preparations, but either way, war is coming.

If your entire style is (1) with few if any elements of (2), then there is no engaging a player that won't be engaged. If person 5 in every town has a thing for the barbarian to do, and they don't do it, that's the end of that.
You talked to player ooc, asking what hooks they want. You feed them appropriately, and then the player walks away from them or doesn't bite. There's no helping that player. At all. Build a new character with different motivations that the player can wrap their head around. Or, accept that the player doesn't jibe with that style of play and they want to just be the one that does the things as part of a larger narrative that they are a passive passenger in (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Otherwise, if they're looking for style (2), as much as you may be a style (1) person, give them style (2). Build the story around forced decisions that the player has to make. It's not what you may want, or be your style, but it may be what they want and/or are expecting, even if nobody's vocalizing it.

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-19, 10:48 AM
It sounds like a lot of fun, I've been toying with a NPC who works like that, however it's directed at the group as a whole. I could try to make it focus on him, I'll have to see if he rises to that kind of situation.

Glad you like it. All I can say is, I know I rise to that sort of thing. And I do play a lot of melee types =)

DMThac0
2018-09-19, 11:12 AM
Otherwise, if they're looking for style (2), as much as you may be a style (1) person, give them style (2). Build the story around forced decisions that the player has to make. It's not what you may want, or be your style, but it may be what they want and/or are expecting, even if nobody's vocalizing it.

First: That's a fairly accurate summary of my DM style, I am going to have to keep that one in the books so I can use it later.

Second: I am going to whine, cry, pout, and complain all the way, but it's quite possible that your suggestion is going to be the way I have to take this.


Glad you like it. All I can say is, I know I rise to that sort of thing. And I do play a lot of melee types =)

I play casters usually, and I'd probably bite on this hook too lol.

YohaiHorosha
2018-09-19, 01:29 PM
First: That's a fairly accurate summary of my DM style, I am going to have to keep that one in the books so I can use it later.

Second: I am going to whine, cry, pout, and complain all the way, but it's quite possible that your suggestion is going to be the way I have to take this.



I play casters usually, and I'd probably bite on this hook too lol.

I've been there, so I feel your pain. GM/player dissonance is a thing. Hope it works out for you!