Anti-Caster Arrows

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm running Rise of the Runelords at the moment, and one of the secondary villains in the adventure we just wrapped up (Lucrecia, in case anyone cares) has twice been reduced to low hit points and promptly dimension doored out. Some of the players are irritated, and one mentioned wanting to look into buying a magic arrow that would silence, anti-magic, or otherwise impede a caster trying to do so.
As DM, I can (of course) just rule that the party finds such an arrow, or that it costs X gp, but I like to be a bit more...methodical in my methodology, if that makes sense. So I decided to figure out an appropriate price for such an arrow, and a good starting point would be a spell storing arrow with a

A +1 spell storing arrow normally costs 167 gp; since this is going to be limited to one precast spell, I'll round it down to 150. Um, maybe I should add another 50 to account for the fact that spell storing is supposed to be melee-only? Hm.
Antimagic field is a 6th-level spell; an 11th-level wizard could cast it for 660 gp. Silence is a 2nd-level spell; a 3rd-level bard could cast it for 60 gp. Of course, since we really only want the caster to be affected, that might be worth a bit of a price drop—say, the equivalent of half a spell level? A 5.5th-level spell cast by a 10th-level caster would be 550 gp, while a 1.5th-level spell cast by a 2nd-level caster would be worth 30 gp. (These would have drawbacks, of course, most obviously that they only affect one caster...and can't be used for utility purposes like disabling magical traps or sneaking past enemies.)
So for prices, we're looking at something like 750 gp for a single-target antimagic effect, and 225 for a single-target silence. Of course, this is for a single-use arrow; it seems reasonable for a consumable, since it's in the price range of a higher-level potion. Though the antimagic arrow, being a nerfed 6th-level spell, should probably cost more than a 3rd-level potion...

If the player wanted to dig the arrow out of the caster afterwards (as he would), it wouldn't be hard to say that the magic had burned out; it was single-use only. But what if we didn't want it to be?
The custom magic item rules suggest that a use-activated or continuous item should cost about 40 times as much as a single-use one. There is some logic to this; a magic item that lets you spam fireball every round should cost more than a single fireball would. Of course, arrows aren't quite that powerful; it's usually hard to shoot the same arrow more than once in a fight. (I mean, maybe your enemies will be willing to pluck the arrows out of their own body and politely return them to you, but they probably wouldn't bother with anything like that if they didn't have a bow for high-speed delivery.) Still, the price would need to be increased. A 1/day use limit would make the arrow about 8 times more expensive as the one-use arrow; since the arrow could be used for multiple fights in one day, this is probably still low.
A silence arrow is specialized enough that a multi-use one wouldn't need to be much more; round 1,800 up to 2,000 and we should be good. (Maybe 2,500—I can see my group stabbing one of their members with the arrow to make them quieter.) On the other hand, antimagic is more broadly useful (even if it also shuts down much of the casters' ability to help); raising it from 6,000 to 10,000 or even 15,000 might not be unreasonable. It's not worth the full 30,000 that an infinite-use single-target antimagic item theoretically would be, by my own ad-hoc-ness, but it's a lot closer than single-target silence.

So, um...what do you guys think about these price approximations, or the existence of such arrows in the first place?

[continuumg]

You might consider Dimensional Anchor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-anchor/) as a more situational alternative.
Looking it up on the pfsrd, I couldn’t help but notice the Phase Locking (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/phase-locking/) weapon enhancement.

[AtlasSniperman]

Durable arrow +silence spell. No save(the spell is on the arrow, not the target) and the caster goes quiet. Works fine whenever I bring them up XD

Edit: another great pair is durable + light. Basically putting glitterdust in the hands of the Bowman.

Not magic items, just cast the spell on the arrow

[Goaty14]

:smallsigh:

I'm far too lazy, but you might try basing whatever arrow off of the C_W Arrows in MotW.

[rferries]

Mageslayer Arrows
These special arrows are primarily designed to prevent spellcasters from escaping combat via magic. There are several types of arrow, each with a different effect. Unlike other magic arrows they do not have an enhancement bonus (unless fired from a magic bow).

Anchoring Arrow
This arrow is set with a tiny emerald and fletched with green feathers. Any creature struck by the arrow is subject to a dimensional anchor effect for 7 minutes.
Moderate Abjuration; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms & Armour, dimensional anchor; Price 1,400 gp.

Arcane Bane Arrow
This arrow has a warped shaft. A creature struck by it must make a DC 17 Will save or suffer the effects of feeblemind. Creatures that cast arcane spells take a -4 penalty on this save.
Moderate Enchantment; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, feeblemind; Price 2,250 gp.

Counterspelling Arrow
This arrow has an arrowhead of cold iron. It automatically attempts to counter the next spell cast by a creature it strikes, as if by dispel magic (with a +5 bonus on the dispel check). The arrow's power expires after its target attempts to cast a spell (successfully or not) or after 1d4 rounds, whichever comes first.
Faint Abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms & Armour, dispel magic; Price 750 gp.

Counterspelling Arrow, Greater
This arrow functions as a counterspelling arrow, save that it counterspells as if by greater dispel magic (with a +20 bonus on the dispel check).
Strong Abjuration; CL 20th; Craft Magic Arms & Armour, greater dispel magic; Price 6,000 gp.

Oiled Arrow
This arrow is coated with an iridescent sheen. Any creature struck by the arrow must succeed on a DC 11 Reflex save or fall prone, as if by grease. The grease effect forms only in the target's space and vanishes after 1 round.
Faint Conjuration; CL 1st; Craft Magic Arms & Armour, grease; Price 300 gp.

Swarm Arrow
This arrow is engraved with the image of a rat. When it strikes a creature, it conjures a rat swarm in that creature's space as if by summon swarm. The swarm vanishes after 2 rounds.
Faint Conjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Magic Arms & Armour, summon swarm; Price 300 gp.

[gooddragon1]

Imagine an arrow that forced a concentration check on any activity that would require concentration for say 1d4+1 rounds. This would make it useful even outside of disrupting spellcasters. Maybe have the DC be equal to the attack roll of the attack that delivered it. Probably have it be some sort of transmutation effect to avoid immunity to mind-affecting.

[rferries]

Imagine an arrow that forced a concentration check on any activity that would require concentration for say 1d4+1 rounds. This would make it useful even outside of disrupting spellcasters. Maybe have the DC be equal to the attack roll of the attack that delivered it. Probably have it be some sort of transmutation effect to avoid immunity to mind-affecting.

Nice idea. I like the Concentration part particularly!

[jqavins]

A quasi-vorpal arrow. It only does arrow damage, but always goes for the larynx.

[brian 333]

A single use arrow with Dimensional Anchor might do the trick. Anti-Magic Sphere would work as well. I'd have the PCs create the item according to the item creation rules rather than 'just happen to find it'.

But what you really need is not a ranged attack. You need a magekiller build solely focused on engaging the character in melee. Rangers are fantastic at this, rogues too, but rogues get fewer attacks per round.

It might be strategic to not engage the spellcaster until your party can focus on her.

It might be strategic to use immobilizing/paralyzing magic or poison. Flesh to Stone works well, as Vaarsuvius can attest. There are also various Hold spells. Consider what your mage needs to push up her spells DC.

Finally, The Forgotten Art: Counterspelling. Nobody does it anymore, but a mage with high Spellcraft can shut down a mage even of higher level who has not invested in it.

[jqavins]

A single use arrow with Dimensional Anchor might do the trick. Anti-Magic Sphere would work as well. I'd have the PCs create the item according to the item creation rules rather than 'just happen to find it'.Or, depending on your campaign style, they could go to a large city where sophisticated shops of all sorts can be found, and commission the arrow(s) from a maker of custom items. (I have one DM who allows this sort of thing, and a couple of custom items. Of course, you pay the more than you would to buy a common item of the same power and you have to wait for it.)


But what you really need is not a ranged attack. You need a magekiller build solely focused on engaging the character in melee.Not if they've got a well established party of established characters. When it's not "How can a party defeat the BBE Mage?" but rather "How can we defeat the BBE Mage?" specialty builds are not in the picture.


It might be strategic to not engage the spellcaster until your party can focus on her.Maybe, but it's usually good strategy to engage the most powerful, most dangerous opponent first. Better to endure the orc hits while you concentrate on the epic mage than to let the epic mage wail on you while you kill the orcs.

[brian 333]

Or, depending on your campaign style, they could go to a large city where sophisticated shops of all sorts can be found, and commission the arrow(s) from a maker of custom items. (I have one DM who allows this sort of thing, and a couple of custom items. Of course, you pay the more than you would to buy a common item of the same power and you have to wait for it.)

Not if they've got a well established party of established characters. When it's not "How can a party defeat the BBE Mage?" but rather "How can we defeat the BBE Mage?" specialty builds are not in the picture.

Maybe, but it's usually good strategy to engage the most powerful, most dangerous opponent first. Better to endure the orc hits while you concentrate on the epic mage than to let the epic mage wail on you while you kill the orcs.

Good points, and I don't disagree with them. My intent was to offer alternatives. Your alternative of a custom magic item maker is very good, especially if none in the party have the requisite feats and spells.

On the point of the established party: you are right again. However, they likely have a monk, or rogue, or ranger, or even a barbarian in the group who can go in for the kill. Heck, the barbarian class tends to be very good magekillers even without being built for that purpose.

As for which is worse, mooks or BBEG, the party is already splitting efforts between ranged attacks on BBEG and melee attacks on the mooks. They are spending the same amount of time being attacked by BBEG either way. This leads me to three aggressive tactical options: Kill the mooks first, kill the BBEG first, or split forces and attack both.

They are currently using option 3, but before they can take down the BBEG she DDs away. If they want to continue trying Option 3, they need to prevent the escape option. A melee character can do that. Give him a potion of invisibility and some boots of elvenkind so the first BBEG knows of him is a backstab. From that point on the BBEG won't be casting any spells over Level 1. At least not effectively.

If the party can deal with them rapidly, taking out the mooks first is a good bet. They are already being hammered by BBEG, so this option changes nothing as far as that goes. With the mooks out of the way, the whole party can focus on BBEG and create more damage in a single round than BBEG can sustain. She'll be dead by the time she realizes she is injured and needs to DD out of combat. Plus, spellcasting in melee! That invites even more Attacks of Opportunity!

I am assuming the whole party cannot bypass the mooks, so option 2 may not be on the table.

My battle plan:

Round 1: everyone except magekiller attacks the mooks. Magekiller chugs an Invisibility potion.
Round 2: everyone except magekiller attacks the mooks, and all of the mooks now have a target selected. Magekiller sneaks past the mooks invisibly.
Round 3: mooks continue to get attacked, but BBEG gets surprised by magekiller, and is now engaged in melee. Her spellcasting days are over!

It is unlikely a mage can stand up for long versus even an unoptomized rogue. Against a fighter subclass, the BBEG has no hope. If the mooks rush to defend BBEG, they expose their backs to the party.

This is not a guarantee, but I'm betting it would work. And even better, if you can afford to take your own spellcaster out of the mook fight, she can counterspell BBEG to prevent her spells from aiding the mooks.

[jqavins]

Round 1: everyone except magekiller attacks the mooks. Magekiller chugs an Invisibility potion.
Round 2: everyone except magekiller attacks the mooks, and all of the mooks now have a target selected. Magekiller sneaks past the mooks invisibly.
Round 3: mooks continue to get attacked, but BBEG gets surprised by magekiller, and is now engaged in melee. Her spellcasting days are over!Sounds good, but I'd modify it slightly.

Round 0: Magekiller takes potion before combat begins, while out of sight of BBEG.
Round 1: Visible party splits between attacks on mooks and attacks on mage, noisily so as to get mage's attention. Meanwhile, magekiller sneaks into position.
Round 2: Magekiller strikes.

Still, in my group we usually ignore the mooks. Let'm make their AofOs and do their flanking; they usually miss anyway and don't do much damage when they hit. If we can take out the BBEG even one round quicker then we sustain less damage overall by doing this and mopping up the mooks (or accepting their surrender) after.

The one thing you never want to do is deal with all the mooks first and save the BBEG for last.

[brian 333]

Sounds good, but I'd modify it slightly.

Round 0: Magekiller takes potion before combat begins, while out of sight of BBEG.
Round 1: Visible party splits between attacks on mooks and attacks on mage, noisily so as to get mage's attention. Meanwhile, magekiller sneaks into position.
Round 2: Magekiller strikes.

Still, in my group we usually ignore the mooks. Let'm make their AofOs and do their flanking; they usually miss anyway and don't do much damage when they hit. If we can take out the BBEG even one round quicker then we sustain less damage overall by doing this and mopping up the mooks (or accepting their surrender) after.

The one thing you never want to do is deal with all the mooks first and save the BBEG for last.

+1. I like this plan.

As for the mooks, it really depends on how good they are. If you can take them out in a round or two and it takes you that long to get to the bad guy anyway, taking them out quickly makes sense, especially if BBEG is going to get those rounds of spellcasting in anyway. If they can't hurt you with flanking bonuses and AoOs, ignore them.

My magekiller ranger was a stealth build. I would send him in to attack, and that was the signal for the rest of the party to attack the distracted mooks. That required room to maneuver and places to hide, and lots of patience. But he was very good at killing mages and very bad at killing anything else. He could clear a room of zombies or goblins, but anything with AC and HP required ranged attacks and room to run away.