Making a backup intelligence-based melee character, likely Bladesinger. Any tips?

[Man_Over_Game]

My intelligence-based Arcane Trickster rogue might be dying in the near future (my team already had one retconned death in our first session), so I'm planning on making a bladesinger. Never played a wizard before, most of my characters are rogues/bards.

Notably, my team has no intelligence characters but my current one, and we have a melee cleric, a monk, a lore bard, and a sorcerer. Bladesinger (for intelligence focus + versatility between range/melee) seemed like the best choice.

Any suggestions?

[Unoriginal]

As a bladesinger, remember that you're a wizard first and a melee combatant as a distant second.

You can have decent melee AC a few times a day, but outside of it you're a guy with little armor and a wizard health pool.

[Man_Over_Game]

As a bladesinger, remember that you're a wizard first and a melee combatant as a distant second.

You can have decent melee AC a few times a day, but outside of it you're a guy with little armor and a wizard health pool.

Great point. I don't intend on fighting in melee very often, so that works out very well. I plan on only going melee when it appears we're outnumbered (and our backline is difficult to hold).

Otherwise, I'd like to focus on the ranged spellcasting portion of things.

[Corran]

Great point. I don't intend on fighting in melee very often, so that works out very well. I plan on only going melee when it appears we're outnumbered (and our backline is difficult to hold).

Otherwise, I'd like to focus on the ranged spellcasting portion of things.
Judging from the party set up, I think the party needs another frontliner, to take some pressure away from the monk and to have another body up front so that the backline is better protected. So you will probably have to melee more often than you would like or should. I wouldn't want to be the one playing the cleric. :smalleek:

[Man_Over_Game]

Judging from the party set up, I think the party needs another frontliner, to take some pressure away from the monk and to have another body up front so that the backline is better protected. So you will probably have to melee more often than you would like or should. I wouldn't want to be the one playing the cleric. :smalleek:

Pros: She's a Tempest Cleric

Cons:Her total modifier sum is like +7. She's the person who's death was retconned. She has 9 health level 1 (was hit with an 11 damage attack, when she had 2 health).

I thought about going Paladin or Eldritch Knight, but EK doesn't do well with a strictly high intelligence, and my entire team has Int as their dump stats. The only other options that stood out was Arcane Trickster (what I am now), or some variant of Wizard. Considering we already have 2 melee and 2 ranged, choosing to be melee myself seemed to be the best option, so I thought Bladesinger would be the most optimal choice.

[Callak_Remier]

Get mirror image at LVL 3. It's a must

[dejarnjc]

As a bladesinger, remember that you're a wizard first and a melee combatant as a distant second.

You can have decent melee AC a few times a day, but outside of it you're a guy with little armor and a wizard health pool.

Once you're level 10, Bladesingers get a lot of effective HP (or at least damage resistance) through Song of Defense. In 3 rounds at 10th level you can reduce up to 70 points of damage using two 5th level slots and a 4th. Granted, it takes your reaction (so no shield) and uses your highest level slots. Still, it's nothing to sneeze at.


Get mirror image at LVL 3. It's a must

IMO it's kind of meh on a bladesinger due to the massive ACs they can get. Blur is much more effective.

[Man_Over_Game]

For when I might have to go from ranged into melee combat, and I don't have any bladesinging charges left, are there any spells you guys might recommend?

[dejarnjc]

For when I might have to go from ranged into melee combat, and I don't have any bladesinging charges left, are there any spells you guys might recommend?

Shadow blade and blur are two of the best low level spells for melee combat. Which one you use will be determined by whether you are being more offensive or more defensive.

[Scarytincan]

Haste is another very strong option. Plus some more filler words so I can post as my initial one word response got an automated "too short to post" message...

[Man_Over_Game]

Someone elsewhere recommended that I find uses for my bonus action, as I won't have many uses for it outside of specific spells. Would it be worthwhile to invest 2 points into Rogue for some bonus action uses?

[Spiritchaser]

Someone elsewhere recommended that I find uses for my bonus action, as I won't have many uses for it outside of specific spells. Would it be worthwhile to invest 2 points into Rogue for some bonus action uses?

Bladesingers (and most especially Bladesingers that want to mix things up in melee) need a lot of Dex AND Con to go with their Int. If you dip rogue, not only are you slowing your spell progression, you’ re slowing ASI progression as well.

If you’re going to stand back and blast/control, it’s probably less critical. Have less Dex, at least at first.

If you’re mostly going to mix things up with shadow blade (not optimal but fun so why not?) then Int is perhaps a shade less critical than Dex, but you want both.

Sure, song of defence at 10 might make Con a bit less critical but you have to live to 10 first.

The Bladesinger at my table is currently at 6th, and he went high Dex, high Int and low Con.

Im not at all optimistic that he’ll make it to 10.

[RSP]

Someone elsewhere recommended that I find uses for my bonus action, as I won't have many uses for it outside of specific spells. Would it be worthwhile to invest 2 points into Rogue for some bonus action uses?

I wouldn’t: 2 levels in Rogue is a big delay in your Wiz progression.

After level 5, I’d plan on keeping at least one 3rd slot free for Haste, to be used when you’re out of bladesongs but need to melee (otherwise I’d be hesitant on using Haste as the downside of losing it is big).

BS can hold up fine enough in combat (google the guides, one specifically focuses on melee BS and will help you out), but you do need to be aware of how to work it.

[MaxWilson]

My intelligence-based Arcane Trickster rogue might be dying in the near future (my team already had one retconned death in our first session), so I'm planning on making a bladesinger. Never played a wizard before, most of my characters are rogues/bards.

Notably, my team has no intelligence characters but my current one, and we have a melee cleric, a monk, a lore bard, and a sorcerer. Bladesinger (for intelligence focus + versatility between range/melee) seemed like the best choice.

Any suggestions?

Rogue 2/Bladesinger X with Athletics and Stealth Expertise is fantastically fun once you hit 8th level or so (for Extra Attack so you can grapple/prone in a single round). Does tend to be a little bit MAD though, since you want at least Dex 16/Int 16 to make it worthwhile, and at least Con 10 (12-14 is better). You get lots of fun gishy options not available to a standard wizard including Fog Cloud + (Cunning Action (Hide) + Booming Blade every round) hit-and-run tactics, Blur + Bladesong + Shield tanking, and Invisibility + stealth recon with Dimension Door as a panic plan. And you still have True Polymorph and Wish in your future, unlike a standard gish.

In general, Bladesingers aren't terrific defensively compared to Ye Olde Plate Armored Multiclass Wizard, but the Roguesinger is a way to leverage the bladesinger's actual strengths: a lightly armored but still survivable off-tank with Extra Attack, ideally suited to be one half of a scouting mission (which should always happen in pairs).

Not super-strong, but super-fun if you're in the mood to be a sneaky rogue.


I wouldn’t: 2 levels in Rogue is a big delay in your Wiz progression.

Let's take level 9: you could be a straight wizard 9 with Wall of Force (but very squishy unless you pick Bladesinger 9), a tanky Cleric 1/Wizard 8 with Evard's Black Tentacles and Polymorph as top-notch control spells, or a sneaky Rogue 2/Bladesinger 7 with slightly fewer Polymorph spells available but fun tanking/grappling/sneaking options available.

Those are all defensible choices, but straight Wizard 9 is the one I'd be least tempted to play because it's the most fragile and the least versatile, partly because it's forced into pre-emptive defensive actions due to its fragility, e.g. once you cast Wall of Force you still need to hold concentration, so other PCs may be forced into "panic mode" to draw fire and protect you from monsters, whereas the tanky and the sneak are both robust enough to look after themselves.

[Captain Bob]

I'll propose an alternative: War Wizard 2 / EK X. Start fighter 1 for con saves and proficiencies. Nice reaction, and you have the chassis to add in resilient Wis or Dex to make yourself even more save-proof. Con save built in for concentration on buffs or what have you, let alone nasty spells.

You can sword and board, two hand GWM, or archer build - whatever the hell you want and it all works. For melee, EK 7 lets you booming blade and attack to make up for a delayed third attack from fighter 11. You're much more versatile with ritual casting, and you can pick a few more spells that are less school-restricted. Works just as well with find familiar as a rogue build if you're pumping attacks with Sharpshooter or GWM.

-Also, plus int. to initiative

I'm sure there are things I'm missing...but this is a decent alternative if you wanna tank, or be a beefier dude with an int. emphasis.

**Ment to mention that you don't necessarily need to miss out on Int. given the increased number of ASI's that fighters get. Your mileage may vary, but especially if you use Vhuman to pick up any 'build' feat you need (Polearm master, sharpshooter, shield master, great weapon master) you can dedicate your ASI's as you please.

[RSP]

Rogue 2/Bladesinger X with Athletics and Stealth Expertise is fantastically fun once you hit 8th level or so (for Extra Attack so you can grapple/prone in a single round). Does tend to be a little bit MAD though, since you want at least Dex 16/Int 16 to make it worthwhile, and at least Con 10 (12-14 is better). You get lots of fun gishy options not available to a standard wizard including Fog Cloud + (Cunning Action (Hide) + Booming Blade every round) hit-and-run tactics, Blur + Bladesong + Shield tanking, and Invisibility + stealth recon with Dimension Door as a panic plan. And you still have True Polymorph and Wish in your future, unlike a standard gish.

In general, Bladesingers aren't terrific defensively compared to Ye Olde Plate Armored Multiclass Wizard, but the Roguesinger is a way to leverage the bladesinger's actual strengths: a lightly armored but still survivable off-tank with Extra Attack, ideally suited to be one half of a scouting mission (which should always happen in pairs).

Not super-strong, but super-fun if you're in the mood to be a sneaky rogue.



Let's take level 9: you could be a straight wizard 9 with Wall of Force (but very squishy unless you pick Bladesinger 9), a tanky Cleric 1/Wizard 8 with Evard's Black Tentacles and Polymorph as top-notch control spells, or a sneaky Rogue 2/Bladesinger 7 with slightly fewer Polymorph spells available but fun tanking/grappling/sneaking options available.

Those are all defensible choices, but straight Wizard 9 is the one I'd be least tempted to play because it's the most fragile and the least versatile, partly because it's forced into pre-emptive defensive actions due to its fragility, e.g. once you cast Wall of Force you still need to hold concentration, so other PCs may be forced into "panic mode" to draw fire and protect you from monsters, whereas the tanky and the sneak are both robust enough to look after themselves.

I believe the discussion was for a Bladesinger. In this case, missing out on 2 levels of Wizard is a big loss, in my opinion. Dropping down to 7 means your spells/slots are behind as well as making it so you’re 3 levels away from Song of Defense, Int to damage, another ASI, etc. More immediate, you won’t have 5th level slots for upcast 4d8 Shadow Blade, you’re also now out Rary’s Telepathic Bond as a ritual for free group silent communication and an additional level of Arcane Recovery. Cunning Action is a great ability, I just think staying Wizard is a clear better choice unless you had a specific feel you’re going for.

[Deathtongue]

I think I discussed the multiclassing dilemma of Bladesinger pretty well in my Bladesinger guide.

Level 6: You miss out on Fireball, Haste, and/or Extra Attack. If you're feeling cheesy, you also miss out on Animate Dead for extra skeleton minions.

Level 8: But let's say you're a Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Polymorph and Greater Invis. One of them is a turbo-charged swiss army knife that you will always find a use for, the other one makes you a melee god.

Level 10: Let's say you're a Bladesinger 8 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Animate Objects. With Arcane Recovery, you could've cast this three times per day. This is a titanic boost to your DPR. You also miss out on Song of Defense. You have two good tricks of 'don't die instantly when monsters look at you funny' (Absorb Elements, Shield) but this completes the trinity. There are a lot of big-time damage makers you have no answer to and sometimes a critical hit sneaks through. If you're abusing Planar Binding, you miss out on extra Conjure Elementals.

Level 12: You miss out on Contingency. You can think of it as an Action Surge that only works with buffs and/or an Action Surge that works even better with defensive ploys. SEE MY SECTION ON CONTINGENCY FOR MORE DETAILS. If you managed to get that spell, you also miss out on Tenser’s Transformation. I could live without Tenser’s, but I have a hard time imagining someone who loved them some melee showboating doing so.
.
Level 14: You miss out on SIMULACRUM. Best feature anyone gets in the game, with the possible exception of Wish. It's so good that I recommend snagging Shape Water just so you'll have a source of ice for it. You also miss out on Song of Victory, which is one of the biggest passive DPR adders per game. If you're using TWFing + Haste, this is an extra 16-20 damage per round. That smite or fighting style ain't looking so hot now.

Level 16: Actually, you don't miss out on much here. I haven't played at this level of play, but I would imagine really regretting that I didn't have Maze. But this is probably the level in which I'd feel most comfortable being behind two levels. You do have enough spell slots to cast Tenser’s Transformation to last you an entire workday if that’s the only thing you care about.

Level 18: Now it’s back to regrets again. You miss out on Spell Mastery. This is infinite shield and misty step/mirror image all day long. This is better than any class feature any martial gives you with the possible exception of Aura of Protection. You also miss out on Foresight and Wish and Shapechange and True Polymorph. Any one of those four spells is better than any class feature any martial gives you, period.

Level 20: You might think that you're in the clear, but a lot of guides miss out on the fact that you gain an extra level 6 and level 7 spell slot. Even if you're not interested in another Mass Suggestion or Whirlwind, you could always just cast Contingency or Tenser’s Transformation twice and have those spells for every challenging workday encounter instead of just one. Signature Spell is okay, but it's still good.

In my opinion, multiclassing Bladesinger is only worth if if you're A) Starting out at level 14 and expect the game to end before you hit level 17, B) Starting at level 17, or C) Expecting the game to end at exactly level 4. If none of those three situations apply to you, there's no reason to multiclass Bladesinger outside of really weird situations like the DM regularly having you do four challenging encounters between short rests.

[MaxWilson]

I believe the discussion was for a Bladesinger. In this case, missing out on 2 levels of Wizard is a big loss, in my opinion. Dropping down to 7 means your spells/slots are behind as well as making it so you’re 3 levels away from Song of Defense, Int to damage, another ASI, etc. More immediate, you won’t have 5th level slots for upcast 4d8 Shadow Blade, you’re also now out Rary’s Telepathic Bond as a ritual for free group silent communication and an additional level of Arcane Recovery. Cunning Action is a great ability, I just think staying Wizard is a clear better choice unless you had a specific feel you’re going for.

I don't really care about Int to damage (I'd still have Greenflame/Booming Blade at full strength) or Song of Defense (Absorb Elements is superior), and I'd enjoy using grapple/prone tricks more than I would enjoy a Rary's Telepathic Bond and one extra point of Arcane Recovery. (I'm not knocking Rary's Telepathic Bond BTW, I just don't like it as much as Stealth/Athletics Expertise and Cunning Action). I can get a 3d8+1d6 Shadow Blade for only a 3rd level spell slot, so I'm definitely not going to regret not being able to spend my 5th level slot on a 4d8 Shadow Blade, especially since I have other things than damage I'd rather spend my concentration on anyway. E.g. I'd rather concentrate on crowd control (Fear) while using my action to put a strong enemy out of action via Grapple/Prone, then maybe stab it a little every round with my rapier + Greenflame Blade. Or I could keep concentration on something like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to keep the strong guy out of business, while using Cunning Action on Hide or Dash to stay alive. Even in regular melee without spending any resources at all, Booming Blade + sneak attack + Cunning Action (Disengage) gives me damage and defense superior to what the pure Bladesinger gets, so I'm more likely to have Bladesong still available if something tough crops up.

I understand where you're coming from in preferring the Wizard progression, but I can't think of many scenarios where the pure Bladesinger would survive better than the Roguesinger would.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Would Mystic be allowed? An Immortal Mystic can be a hella tanky Int-based guy.

Since you mostly need Int to be a skill monkey, you don't need to worry about cranking it sky-high. An Eldritch Knight with 14 Int and the Sage background should do just fine, especially with a Rouge dip.


As an alternative to Bladesinger, how 'bout Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard? Either vHuman with Tough, or--if you want to be really cheesy-- Deep Gnome with their racial feat to recharge your ward. You can hit decently hard with Green Flame/Booming Blade, and you'll be nicely tough.

[RSP]

I don't really care about Int to damage...

To each their own, though I think you’re overstating the benefits of the Rogue multi. AE is a great spell, but not as useful as SoD, and I have no idea why you think it’s superior: it works on 5 damage types, none of which are as common as the weapon damage types, and only gives resistance, whereas SoD full on negates any type of damage. AE is great, but for someone who is so worried about being squishy, I think you’ve undervalued SoD.

The loss of 5th level spells isn’t so simple as “no wall of force,” in addition to free telepathy, there’s Animate Objects, Modify Memory, Synaptic Static, etc.

You also seem to contradict yourself on why you opted for the multi (too squishy), yet state the advantage is you can grapple enemies, which basically means they’re attacking you. Also, grapple+rapier=no casting M or S spells (baring Warcaster), so you’re losing AE and Shield in this situation, which are your primary means of shoring up your d6 squishiness.

And why grapple anyway when you’ve used Fear?

You’re also putting all your damage in one attack with GFB, as opposed to the 2 or three attacks you could have. And if it’s being up close that bothers you, the whip is a decent choice for keeping distance. The added 2d8 damage with GFB/BB won’t even out against even just two attacks with +Int to damage. Using SB obviously ups all that damage, and usually grants advantage on all attacks as well.

Not to mention that CA competes with BS, as it too uses a bonus action, so right off the start of combat, you know most times you won’t even be gaining that benefit.

Lastly, particular to this thread, the OP seems to want a frontliner, while using CA to skirmish kind of directly goes against holding the line.

Play it as you like, obviously, and as a skirmisher, it’s probably has some built-in fun options, but you are trying to oversell the dip.

[Deathtongue]

Play it as you like, obviously, and as a skirmisher, it’s probably has some built-in fun options, but you are trying to oversell the dip.I'd just like to point out that melee skirmisher is probably one of the weaker ways to play a Bladesinger despite it being the most obvious, much like playing a pure Sorcerer as a blaster is the weakest way to play one.

Bladesinger provides great melee interdiction, especially in games which have magical items. It's hard-hitting enough not to be ignorable while it 'wastes' enemy attacks. And it has a lot of great attack-wasting options; not just the clutch choices of Shield and Absorb Elements and Song of Defense, but also Protection from Evil and Good, Blur, Greater Invis, Contingency + Resilient Sphere (or readied action Resilient sphere if you're feeling daring), Misty/Thunder Step for the grapplers, soforth. Zipping in and out of melee combat to make yourself not a target gets rid of a lot of your strengths. There will always be the problem of 50-70+ damage critical hits, but you don't get through life without risks and you'll get more and more tools to deal with that as you gain levels.

Playing a Bladesinger as a high-defense wizard is perfectly acceptable. Playing it as an attack-wasting melee interdictor is also good. But playing it as a skirmisher? It's a nice option to have, but making that your primary role is weakening your party. Both in potential and also because, truth be told, Bladesinger doesn't do enough damage with the basic chassis to make it a worthwhile option. The exception is if you want to milk the most use out of your Simulacrum, but that's why 2/3rds of the acceptable multiclassing scenarios require you to be level 14+.

[dejarnjc]

There will always be the problem of 50-70+ damage critical hits, but you don't get through life without risks and you'll get more and more tools to deal with that as you gain levels.


Hah, 50-70 dmg critical hits are a problem for most every class except possibly a Barbarian and a wildshaped moon druid.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd just like to point out that melee skirmisher is probably one of the weaker ways to play a Bladesinger despite it being the most obvious, much like playing a pure Sorcerer as a blaster is the weakest way to play one.

Bladesinger provides great melee interdiction, especially in games which have magical items. It's hard-hitting enough not to be ignorable while it 'wastes' enemy attacks. And it has a lot of great attack-wasting options; not just the clutch choices of Shield and Absorb Elements and Song of Defense, but also Protection from Evil and Good, Blur, Greater Invis, Contingency + Resilient Sphere (or readied action Resilient sphere if you're feeling daring), Misty/Thunder Step for the grapplers, soforth. Zipping in and out of melee combat to make yourself not a target gets rid of a lot of your strengths. There will always be the problem of 50-70+ damage critical hits, but you don't get through life without risks and you'll get more and more tools to deal with that as you gain levels.

Playing a Bladesinger as a high-defense wizard is perfectly acceptable. Playing it as an attack-wasting melee interdictor is also good. But playing it as a skirmisher? It's a nice option to have, but making that your primary role is weakening your party. Both in potential and also because, truth be told, Bladesinger doesn't do enough damage with the basic chassis to make it a worthwhile option. The exception is if you want to milk the most use out of your Simulacrum, but that's why 2/3rds of the acceptable multiclassing scenarios require you to be level 14+.

This sounds like it's coming from experience. So your suggestion is that I effectively play a bladesinger as a "tank"?

I can kinda see it working out. Lore Bards kind of do a similar thing, with Cutting Words. Deflecting 1d10 damage is nice, but evading the attack entirely is even better.

Hell, it might be even more effective than a Lore Bard, considering that Shield is a solid +4 with no random chance. The equivalent of an average +4 from Lore Bards would be from a 1d12 (which is closer to 3.5).

Thinking about it, our party HAS a Lore Bard. The combination would basically mean that I'd never be hit by basic attacks. Maybe grabbing War Caster so that opportunity attacks are more debilitating. I can really see that working out.


Sorry I forgot to mention it earlier, my DM isn't allowing any UA, and he is requiring that Bladesingers are elves. He isn't super strict on a lot of stuff, but he doesn't want the floodgates to be opened, especially since it's his first time DMing.