[3.5] Music Domain

[Thurbane]

A quick search has turned up nothing: is there a Music or Song cleric domain printed anywhere?

If not, what would you recommend for spells in the domain and domain power?

Cheers - T

[tadkins]

Maybe something like this? It's Pathfinder but could probably be adapted.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/3rd-party-publishers-domains/4-winds-fantasy-gaming-domains/song-domain/

[Telonius]

Third party, but Book of Eldritch Might 2 (Monte Cook) has a Music domain statted out.

[Luckmann]

Huh.

I've never thought about it, but no, there is no official Music or Song or similar domain in 3.5s official materials, and considering all the domains available, that's actually really, really odd, especially since it's not an uncommon aspect for deities to hold domains over.

There's a few like "Expressive" domain, Joy, Hope, Beguilement, Emotion, etc., but nothing specifically music or song.

How very odd.

[Darrin]

There is, however, a Metal domain.

Heavy Metal Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479643-Heavy-Metal-Bard-Class-Creation-Help-3-5e) seems to be a recurring theme, along with the Disciple of Metal (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471374-Homebrew-Disciple-of-Metal-PrC-(Sooth)) (not sure if this link still works).

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

So if I was going to stat out a home-brew domain, how does this look:

Music Domain

Granted Power: Add Perform to your list of Cleric class skills. You also gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat for one Perform skill of your choice.

Music Domain Spells

1. Lullaby
2. Sound Burst
3. Sculpt Sound
4. Shout
5. Fugue (SC p.100)
6. Song of Discord
7. Dirge (SC p.65)
8. Charm Person, Mass
9. Otto's Irresistible Dance

[Bucky]

I don't like skill focus as a domain power.

[Thurbane]

I don't like skill focus as a domain power.

How about you get the Inspire Courage ability of a 1st level Bard, and this stacks with any actual Bard levels for your Inspire Courage ability?

[Nifft]

How about you get the Inspire Courage ability of a 1st level Bard, and this stacks with any actual Bard levels for your Inspire Courage ability?

Inspire Courage is a bit much to give a Cleric.

I'd be more comfortable with Countersong (at the cost of a Turn Undead attempt).

[PunBlake]

I wouldn't actually give Inspire Courage either. I would copy either / a mix of / both of the Dragon Magazine feats Hymnist (325) or Sacred Performer (357).
I would go with Perform as a class skill and "allows cleric levels to count as Bard levels for calculating Inspire Courage bonus, but this only works if you have the Bardic Music class feature."

Regardless, I would totally use the Music domain in a Divine Prankster (RoS) build.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Looks fine to me. Would be decently useful for entering Heartfire Fanner as a cleric.

Other SpC spells you might consider:

amplify (1st)
battle hymn (2nd or 3rd -- not a good spell at 4th)
body harmonic (5th or 6th -- not a very good spell, but very interesting)
bonefiddle (2nd)
dissonant chant (2nd)
dissonant chord (3rd)
focusing chant (1st)
g'elsewhere chant (3rd or 4th)
ghostharp (1st)
harmonic chorus (2nd or 3rd)
hymn of praise (3rd, good only)
infernal threnody (3rd, evil only)
insidious rhythm (1st)
inspirational boost (1st -- requires Inspire Courage)
joyful noise (1st)
love's lament (3rd or 4th)
nightmare lullaby (2nd)
sirine's grace (4th or 5th)
summon elysian thrush (2nd, good only)
symphonic nightmare (7th)
undersong (1st -- nice Perform synergy)

Maybe do a hymn of praise/infernal threnody variation for good/evil clerics? You can homebrew some chaotic/lawful variants, too.

[Sleven]

I'd give it spells like Sonorous Hum and Hymn of Praise/Infernal Threnody. Stuff that's music/song related but still applies to spellcasters in general. I'd stay away from stuff that's merely generically related to sound (e.g. Shout, Sound Burst, etc.).

Also, Irresistible Dance as a 9th level spell is extremely underwhelming.

[Luckmann]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

So if I was going to stat out a home-brew domain, how does this look:

Music Domain

Granted Power: Add Perform to your list of Cleric class skills. You also gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat for one Perform skill of your choice.

Music Domain Spells

1. Lullaby
2. Sound Burst
3. Sculpt Sound
4. Shout
5. Fugue (SC p.100)
6. Song of Discord
7. Dirge (SC p.65)
8. Charm Person, Mass
9. Otto's Irresistible Dance

I think that Skill Focus is "boring", but plenty of domains grant Skill Focus, it's a reasonable bonus for someone that is going for the whole performance spiel, and it's a not-uncommon prerequisite for performance-based PrCs. Of course, my group(s) makes it apply to *all* perform skills, which I think is reasonable, but may also skew my appreciation of it.

I would change it so that it's not just applied to Cleric as a class skill, instead becoming a class skill for the character, period.

I'd revise the domain spell-list thusly:

1. Loresong
2. Sonorous Hum
3. Love's Lament
4. Sirine's Grace
5. Fugue
6. Song of Discord
7. Dirge
8. Symphonic Nightmare
9. Otto's Irresistible Dance

Any DM that doesn't let you take Lullaby as a 0-lvl spell for a musically inclined cleric isn't worth playing with, and Otto's Irresistable Dance may be underwhelming, but it fits the theme and it's more common than not that domains have a few spells that aren't objectively amazing.

Others were changed mostly for thematic purposes, with little to no regard for optimization.

[Nifft]

Okay, how about for a Domain power you can cast summon instrument (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonInstrument.htm) at-will, with the following enhancements:

At 2nd level, you can cast summon instrument as a Swift action.

At 4th level, the summoned instrument acts as a +1 improvised weapon. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

At 6th level, you can impart either the pyrotechnical excellence or chill-hop flaming or frost special ability to the summoned instrument.

At 10th level, you can impart either the electric guitar or acid jazz shock or corrosive special ability to the summoned instrument, in place of flaming or frost.

At 14th level, you can impart the bane (music critics) special ability to the summoned instrument, in addition to any other enhancement.

[Telonius]

Okay, how about for a Domain power you can cast summon instrument (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonInstrument.htm) at-will, with the following enhancements:

At 2nd level, you can cast summon instrument as a Swift action.

At 4th level, the summoned instrument acts as a +1 improvised weapon. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

At 6th level, you can impart either the pyrotechnical excellence or chill-hop flaming or frost special ability to the summoned instrument.

At 10th level, you can impart either the electric guitar or acid jazz shock or corrosive special ability to the summoned instrument, in place of flaming or frost.

At 14th level, you can impart the bane (music critics) special ability to the summoned instrument, in addition to any other enhancement.


A guitar retrieved from hammerspace, that you can use to El Kabong your enemies? I love it.

[liquidformat]

here are some more spells that might be interesting:
Haunting Tune (lvl 3, SP 110) Love's Lament is also a great choice here as mentioned by luckmann
Wail of Doom (lvl 5, CAdv 158) if you are doing a good and evil version this might be a good evil side spell.

[Thurbane]

Thanks again for the feedback.

I was hoping to keep the spell selection as much in core as I could, but I'll consider all of the suggestions.

Still very undecided on the domain power...

[Luckmann]

here are some more spells that might be interesting:
Haunting Tune (lvl 3, SP 110) Love's Lament is also a great choice here as mentioned by luckmann
Wail of Doom (lvl 5, CAdv 158) if you are doing a good and evil version this might be a good evil side spell.

I think Haunting Tune is an excellent suggestion, and would make a more fitting spell for 2nd level than Sonorous Hum; Haunting Tune is explicity a tune/music-based, whereas Sonorous Hum is just.. a specific kind of noise that surrounds the caster.

Haunting Tune is (as you note) a lvl 3 Bard Spell, but I do not think it's inappropriate to make it a lvl 2 spell for the Domain, and while potentially powerful, it is not singularly overpowered.


Thanks again for the feedback.

I was hoping to keep the spell selection as much in core as I could, but I'll consider all of the suggestions.

Still very undecided on the domain power...
How about maybe spending turn undead attempts as free actions to boost perform, then? Still "just" a bonus to perform, but maybe a bit more "interesting" than just getting a feat (even if said feat is sometimes a prereq.), and it would/could stack with Skill Focus.

Another idea is to spend turn undead attempts to actually use certain types of pre-existing alternative abilities. I wouldn't take one of the major ones from base casses (such as a bard's Inspire Courage), but perhaps the ACF "Healing Hymn" would be appropriate? Another option would be the "Inspire Turning" ACF, which could be interesting since the Cleric would basically spend a turn undead attempt before spendingnanother one to actually turn, allowing selective boosting of oneself.

Finally, I think that granting the "Melodic Casting" feat could be appropriate, too. It won't *fully* benefit a pure cleric, since it doesn't have bardic casting or performances, but it *could* still benefit from replacing concentration with Perform (although said Cleric will not normally have Perform as a class skill. You might want to make Perform a Cleric class skill *and* grant Melodic Casting).

Also, might I ask what setting this is for, or the circumstances involved? I realize it's late in the thread now, I really should've asked earlier, but I feel like it always helps with homebrewing stuff, because if we're dealing with, say, Forgotten Realms, we'd know that deities associated with song are also generally associated with joy and/or exploration/knowledge and so on, such as such as Lliira, Milil, Wyvernspur, or Lathander. I can't (immediately, at least) think of a single "evil" deity that I could naturally associate with granting Music as a Domain.

But in other settings, a deity of song could easily be much more neutral, and I can absolutely see there being, for example, a deity of death and dirgesong in some setting, which would make it more appropriate to have "darker" or more sorrowful songs/spells associated with the domain.

[ATHATH]

Perhaps "You may take [Bardic] feats as if you had the Bardic Music class feature and were a Bard of 1/2 of your Cleric level. For you, uses of Turn Undead count as uses of Bardic Music for the purposes of using [Bardic] feats."?

[eraskller]

I don't like skill focus as a domain power.

Why? is that bad? i don't think so .

[Luckmann]

Perhaps "You may take [Bardic] feats as if you had the Bardic Music class feature and were a Bard of 1/2 of your Cleric level. For you, uses of Turn Undead count as uses of Bardic Music for the purposes of using [Bardic] feats."?My knee-jerk reaction to that is that it sounds incredibly, incredibly overpowered and would make a 1-cleric dip even stronger.

[OgresAreCute]

My knee-jerk reaction to that is that it sounds incredibly, incredibly overpowered and would make a 1-cleric dip even stronger.

Really? It doesn't give you actual bardic music, you just pretend you have it for the purposes of feat prereqs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use bardic feats so I don't imagine this is very strong.

[Nifft]

Perhaps "You may take [Bardic] feats as if you had the Bardic Music class feature and were a Bard of 1/2 of your Cleric level. For you, uses of Turn Undead count as uses of Bardic Music for the purposes of using [Bardic] feats."?

Which [Bardic] feats do you think are worthwhile?

Bardic Metamagic could be game-breakingly good, but only if you could get around the Arcane spell requirement.

I don't see much value in a quick scan of the others.

[PunBlake]

Really? It doesn't give you actual bardic music, you just pretend you have it for the purposes of feat prereqs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use bardic feats so I don't imagine this is very strong.
Song of the Heart is the only one worth taking, and since you're not a bard, you can't use the Eberron Bard substitution or any of the standard bard ACFs without explicit DM permission/hand-waving. Hmm. I guess you could also use Metamagic Song (RoS) to get DMM without being forced to choose a metamagic feat, but I imagine books being thrown as a result.

[liquidformat]

Finally, I think that granting the "Melodic Casting" feat could be appropriate, too. It won't *fully* benefit a pure cleric, since it doesn't have bardic casting or performances, but it *could* still benefit from replacing concentration with Perform (although said Cleric will not normally have Perform as a class skill. You might want to make Perform a Cleric class skill *and* grant Melodic Casting).


Ya I think Melodic Casting + proficiency with 1 performance skill would be a good power, the only reason it is 'strong' is it allows a bit of skill point conservation. But it isn't strong enough to make bards want to dip just to have it.


Really? It doesn't give you actual bardic music, you just pretend you have it for the purposes of feat prereqs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use bardic feats so I don't imagine this is very strong.

I agree with Luckmann here, fueling bardic music feats off of turning is very abusable and in and of itself a good reason to dip cleric

[Luckmann]

Which [Bardic] feats do you think are worthwhile?

Bardic Metamagic could be game-breakingly good, but only if you could get around the Arcane spell requirement.

I don't see much value in a quick scan of the others.well, for example, you could take 1 level of Cleric, pick the Music Domain, and then proceed to just take Wizard levels (or any arcane caster, really), taking Metamagic Song, fueling metamagic with Turning. As Bard you can suddenly fuel Metamagic Song with *both* Bardic Music and Turning.

Another Bardic Feat, Lyric Spell, allows you to spend Bardic Music to cast spontaneous spells. Suddenly, you can cast using both Bardic Music and Turning.

Looking it over a bit now, it may not be *as* powerful as I initially was afraid it would be (I *did* say it was knee-jerk), but I'm still not convinced. It would probably be fine for someone that isn't primarily a spellcasting-focused bard, but for those that are, it would make a 1-cleric dip quite powerful, since a lvl 1 Cleric with 20 Charisma (not at all unlikely early on for someone that focuses on being a spellcaster bard) would immediately add his 8 turning attempts to his bard.

I... I'd strongly consider it an option if whatever cleric that took such a Music Domain *had* to be of the oft-considered-weaker Variant Class "Divine Bard", which would be an atypical but not unwarranted (imo) stipulation as part of a domain. This would also come with the *assumption* (but not rules text) that the DM would then allow the bard to actually use [Bardic] Feats with divine spells *instead of* arcane spells (and also let certain PrC:s and such key off divine spells).

So yeah, I think that a DM houseruling/tailoring a Music Domain should at least *consider* the suggestion of allowing the Music Domain to qualify for bardic feats, count as bardic music for prereqs., etc.

One thing I'd like to add, though, is that I think that the holder of the domain should also be subject to the idea of having to convey/cast their spells as performances, just as a bard, even if they are not a bard. That is, just as for a bard, all spells would have a verbal component, whether that's playing an instrument, singing a song, or reciting a poem. At *the very least* this should apply to the spells of the domain itself, but I'd personally impose it on all spells cast by such a character unless I hear a good in-character reason why it wouldn't.

[Silly Name]

Why? is that bad? i don't think so .

Well, Skill Focus is probably one of the worst feats out there (better than Toughness, but not by much). It's not all that bad as a bonus feat, especially if you are interested in a PrC which has Skill Focus has a prerequisite, so that you don't have to blow a precious feat slot on it.

However, as far as domain-granted powers go, Skill Focus is probably one of the weakest and least interesting options. Between turning elementals, SLAs and supernatural abilities, increased Caster Level and a bunch more stuff, Skill Focus is pretty lame. In general, being able to do something you couldn't before is more interesting than a plain, static increase to a skill which you might or might not use that often.

[Nifft]

However, as far as domain-granted powers go, Skill Focus is probably one of the weakest and least interesting options. The thing is, it's in addition to the real Domain power, which is gaining a new class skill.

Several Domains give nothing more than a class skill. This Domain gives you a class skill and a feat. The feat isn't much but it's on top of something which would have been already sufficient without the feat.

[bean illus]

Granted Power: Add Perform to your list of Cleric class skills. You also gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat for one Perform skill of your choice.

I like SF there. I see no reason not to give Perform as a skill, either class or PC.

BUT i really like the idea of giving a bard synergy. One that isn't wasted sans bard. Possibly like ...

Granted Power: Add Perform to your list of Cleric class skills.

Once a day you can add your Cha mod to your Wis mod for a Turn/Rebuke Undead check, or Perform check.

[liquidformat]

I like SF there. I see no reason not to give Perform as a skill, either class or PC.

BUT i really like the idea of giving a bard synergy. One that isn't wasted sans bard. Possibly like ...

Granted Power: Add Perform to your list of Cleric class skills.

Once a day you can add your Cha mod to your Wis mod for a Turn/Rebuke Undead check, or Perform check.
^^ is why I thought Melodic Casting was a good idea, you are adding synergy between the two classes.

[Luckmann]

The thing is, it's in addition to the real Domain power, which is gaining a new class skill.

Several Domains give nothing more than a class skill. This Domain gives you a class skill and a feat. The feat isn't much but it's on top of something which would have been already sufficient without the feat.To be fair, the opposite is *also* true: There are several Domains that grant a cleric class skill in addition to some other effect.

Just like I think it's a bad idea to create something templated after the best possible domains, I think it's likewise a bad idea to create something templated after the worst. Additionally, it is pretty much a core aspect of the game that feats are of varying power and should not be measured or priced under the assumption of "a feat" being of equal value as other feats.

If we think of it in terms of effects, instead, what you're getting as a Cleric is a class skill of a type you would not usually use much (or that is generally considered to be of low importance or power for anything but a bard) as well as the ability to use Perform instead of Concentration when taking damage, which in many circumstances will not waive reliance on Concentration (various prerequisites, other concentration checks, etc.). In addition, following my suggestion on the topic, the cleric would now be dependent on a verbal component for (almost) all spellcasting, a full-on malus.

In order to benefit fully from the feat, you'd need Bard levels, the main benefit of the Domain sans feat now being that you can keep up your Perform on your Cleric levels, but it also means that no matter how we cut it, we're far away from the realms of any real optimization. I think it's a cool combo, I'd love to play it, but a pure Cleric would always be better, and an otherwise pure Bard (with only, say, 1 level of Cleric, taking the Music Domain) would gain extremely little other 1-cleric-dips don't. There is, after all, a reason 1-cleric-dips are considered powerful, and this Music Domain would make no difference whatsoever.

[liquidformat]

To be fair, the opposite is *also* true: There are several Domains that grant a cleric class skill in addition to some other effect.

Just like I think it's a bad idea to create something templated after the best possible domains, I think it's likewise a bad idea to create something templated after the worst. Additionally, it is pretty much a core aspect of the game that feats are of varying power and should not be measured or priced under the assumption of "a feat" being of equal value as other feats.

If we think of it in terms of effects, instead, what you're getting as a Cleric is a class skill of a type you would not usually use much (or that is generally considered to be of low importance or power for anything but a bard) as well as the ability to use Perform instead of Concentration when taking damage, which in many circumstances will not waive reliance on Concentration (various prerequisites, other concentration checks, etc.). In addition, following my suggestion on the topic, the cleric would now be dependent on a verbal component for (almost) all spellcasting, a full-on malus.

In order to benefit fully from the feat, you'd need Bard levels, the main benefit of the Domain sans feat now being that you can keep up your Perform on your Cleric levels, but it also means that no matter how we cut it, we're far away from the realms of any real optimization. I think it's a cool combo, I'd love to play it, but a pure Cleric would always be better, and an otherwise pure Bard (with only, say, 1 level of Cleric, taking the Music Domain) would gain extremely little other 1-cleric-dips don't. There is, after all, a reason 1-cleric-dips are considered powerful, and this Music Domain would make no difference whatsoever.

I am not seeing any argument here beyond 'I expect more power/ greater utility out of a tier 1 class ability' the issue I see is balance point. With Melodic Casting + Perform we have thematically succeeded at making a divine bard that is better than a standard divine bard by virtue of cleric. Yes we have now made verbal components of spells very important but that also thematically fits for the idea who devotes themselves to a music god. If you are really bent out of shape about concentration still being needed for feats and prcs adding in the clause perform can be used for feats and prcs that would otherwise require concentration fixes that without making the power OP or even changing power level at all. This is much better than most cleric domains that either give no spells hat aren't on the cleric list, completely useless powers, or both. As a litmus test it passes and places music domain in the range of useful but not a number one choice.

However, if we instead hop into something like using turning to power bardic music, or music feats you start getting into areas where taking cleric dip is mandatory for bard builds or cleric obsoleting bards altogether which is a real concern. Cleric is already overpowered it doesn't need a leg up to be even more so.

[Thurbane]

I've just become aware of a 3rd party source through another thread: The Book of Eldritch Might II (https://www.rpgnow.com/product/515/Book-of-Eldritch-Might-II-Songs-and-Souls-of-Power?it=1) has its own music domain, as follows:

Granted power: 3/day, boost the caster level of a spell with verbal component by +1.

1. Hypnotism
2. Whispering Wind
3. Good Hope
4. Sculpt Sound
5. Shout
6. Suggestion, Mass
7. Legend Lore
8. Charm Monster, Mass
9. Wail of the Banshee

...not sure about the spell selection, but the granted power is very underwhelming.

[liquidformat]

[QUOTE=Thurbane;23444514]So here are the song possibilities we have:

1. Hypnotism, Lullaby, Loresong, amplify, focusing chant, ghostharp, insidious rhythm, joyful noise, undersong(useless with Melodic Casting)
2. Whispering Wind, Sonorous Hum, Sound Burst, battle hymn, bonefiddle, dissonant chant, harmonic chorus, nightmare lullaby, summon elysian thrush
3. Good Hope, Love's Lament, Sculpt Sound, Haunting Tune, battle hymn, dissonant chord, g'elsewhere chant, harmonic chorus, hymn of praise, infernal threnody, Dirge of Discord, Demon Dirge
4. Sculpt Sound, Sirine's Grace, Shout, battle hymn, g'elsewhere chant, love's lament
5. Shout, Fugue, Wail of Doom, body harmonic , sirine's grace
6. Mass Suggestion, Song of Discord, Dirge
7. Legend Lore, Dirge, symphonic nightmare
8. Mass Charm Monster, Symphonic Nightmare
9. Wail of the Banshee, Otto's Irresistible Dance

If we were going to go with good&evil list List here is a possible grouping:
Good:
1. joyful noise
2. summon elysian thrush
3. hymn of praise or Good Hope (has the word good in it!)
4. love's lament
5. Shout, Fugue, Wail of Doom, body harmonic , sirine's grace
6. Song of Discord (makes more sense than mass suggestion)
7. Legend Lore (Makes more sense than Dirge and using symphonic nigthmare below)
8. Symphonic Nightmare
9. Otto's Irresistible Dance

Evil:
1. ghostharp
2. bonefiddle, or nightmare lullaby (Both seem pretty thematic)
3. Haunting Tune, Dirge of Discord, Demon Dirge, or infernal threnody (all seem thematically good for evil)
4. Sirine's Grace, or love's lament (both thematically interesting)
5. Wail of Doom
6. Song of Discord
7. Dirge
8. Symphonic Nightmare
9. Wail of the Banshee

Neutral (because neutrality needs nice things too)
1. Lullaby
2. harmonic chorus
3. dissonant chord
4. battle hymn
5. Fugue
6. Song of Discord
7. symphonic nightmare
8. Mass Charm Monster
9. Otto's Irresistible Dance