An attempt to keep open lock useful (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

Open/close: As written, but the weight limit is increased to whatever the caster could open without a strength check.

Hold portal: Holds shut a portal, if locked increases open lock DC by 5, if unlocked it is simply locked again.
Either way, forcing the portal open requires a strength check with +5 DC (so if locked and you pick the lock, you open it without having to force it)

Arcane lock: Makes a permanent hold portal effect, though you and only you can bypass it by casting open/close on the portal, and once closed again, requires another casting of open/close to restart the arcane lock.
-the normal rules for open/close still apply (such as weight limit, can't undo a bar, etc)
A portal with a lock has the break DC increased by 10 instead of 5, a lock also allows you and only you to lock/unlock and open the portal with the key. If the lock is destroyed instead of picked, the portal must still be forced open, though the break DC for the portal decreases back to +5

Optionally, you can cast the spell so that it functions for someone else (allowing dungeon builders to hire mages to cast arcane lock for them), but a portal can only be arcane locked once at a time and only function for one person at a time.

Knock: Full round action after casting, hold hand to portal, 1d20 + caster level + casting stat vs open lock DC, concentration duration (can take 20). One casting suppresses arcane lock for 1 minute per caster level and dispels hold portal (and uses up that casting). Against other impediments, it functions as normal

open lock DC equal to crafting DC
cost of lock:
DC 20 = 20gp, DC 25 = 100gp, DC 30 = 500gp, DC 35 = 1200gp, DC 40 = 3000gp
Not sure how I feel about locks being more expensive and longer to craft than full-plate.

Doors + locks can be magically treated like walls can, but the break DC can only be raised by 5. It costs 1500gp to do so for each door (unless it's bigger than 10ft x 10ft) and +500gp for each lock.

Even arcane lock will want regular locks on their doors. Casters can't bypass locks as easily as a rogue via knock. Good locks cost more to balance the desire to just always use good locks. Locks can be made immune to adamantine weapons ability to bypass their hardness (by raising it to 20), and at least resistant to disintegrate or other destructive magics. "Magically treated" is better for walls than doors, so digging around the door is less attractive.

Did I miss anything?

[Khedrac]

I have played an adventure where it was specifically noted in the adventure that one door had more locks than a single casting of knock would open (3 dead-bolts iirc) so that a party with a single scroll of knock or a caster with it memorized once could not use that door.
Although the adventure was designed for the party to use a different route, there were definite advantages to using the door so parties with a rogue could benefit thereby.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, multiple locks or even multiple doors with different locking mechanism is a good way to make the spellcaster save their spellslots and have the rogue actually matter.

[Oracle71]

You could also have some locked doors inside antimagic or dead magic zones.

[ShurikVch]

Knock's area is 10 ft2/CL; use the Titan-sized doors with locks at three sides (top/side/bottom)

One more possibility: if enemies in the room would see whatever latch (which just couldn't be opened from another side!) was suddenly unlocked, they may charge out of the room without a warning (thus gaining the surprise round)

[Goaty14]

...Or maybe you merge open lock with disable device, because a lock is a device, no?

[ottdmk]

My DM is really fond of locked doors. He seems to be of the opinion that if a door can be locked, it should be locked. Keeps my Unseen Seer busy. (I have an Open Lock modifier of +15.) It would get annoyingly resource intensive without Open Lock, simply because we run into so many locked things.

I *am* in favour of going the Pathfinder route and combining Open Lock and Disable Device though.

[ericgrau]

Did I miss anything?
Just take a 20 on open lock for free and save on spell slots. Locks usually don't go above DC 30 and it's trivial to get a +10. Or bash the door in and don't use open lock at all unless your party actually uses stealth. 25 damage takes out a good wooden door and 70 damage an iron door.

No one ever actually prepares hold portal, arcane lock or knock except to win an argument. It's a waste of a spell slot. The spells are already far too limited to be useful. You're doing a partial job of solving a minor problem. Want to work with allies, be stealthy, or spam it and you're in trouble. Why would you nerf these spells further when they're already so close to useless?

It's kinda like saying why would I ever be a wizard when I can mimic one of his class features with a feat, obtain familiar. Um, actually you can't always, those that can usually can't use it as well as a wiz/sor. And even when you can use it, so what? It's so minor and pointless and doesn't replace much of anything.

Same with open lock. If your party isn't being stealthy then open lock with an axe. If it is being stealthy, then knock don't work anyway and you must use the skill. If you're trying to stop someone, hold portal and arcane lock already aren't worth the trouble due to duration and/or harshly limited access to friendlies. I get a couple scrolls of hold portal every campaign just in case. I'm lucky if I use 1 of them the whole campaign. Arcane lock is too expensive to scroll or prepare for dungeons. And I'd be too terrified to use it on my personal room because only I can get in that way and you Don't Split The Party. Something ports in and I'm toast.

If you want open lock to be useful then make a stealthy character who scouts ahead for the party without getting caught. Combine with other tactics. Though I'm confused why you'd want to focus on a middle of the road skill except due to past internet arguments.

[Deophaun]

Just take a 20 on open lock for free and save on spell slots.
^^^ This.

It's not that Open Lock isn't useful. It's that it's not worth ever putting more than 1 rank into it.

Trying to save Open Lock is like trying to save Use Rope. They're both skills built on nonsense to begin with. Merge Open Lock with Disable Device and be done with it.

[ericgrau]

^^^ This.

It's not that Open Lock isn't useful. It's that it's not worth ever putting more than 1 rank into it.

Trying to save Open Lock is like trying to save Use Rope. They're both skills built on nonsense to begin with. Merge Open Lock with Disable Device and be done with it.
Well I'd put like 5 ranks into it and use MW tools for my +10. And some rare and expensive locks are DC 40. I'd up my ranks to at least open them to resell if we started running into a lot of them.

Also besides open lock and use rope: appraise (mostly), climb, decipher script, escape artist, gather information, handle animal, heal, jump, ride, survival and swim. It's almost as if you aren't actually supposed to max out all your skills after all and may only want to put a few ranks in some. Allowing retraining can help since most become obsolete. I do like consolidation too, it's in my sig, though mostly to make things simpler and not about bookkeeping so many minor things.

[Jack_Simth]

open lock DC equal to crafting DC
cost of lock:
DC 20 = 20gp, DC 25 = 100gp, DC 30 = 500gp, DC 35 = 1200gp, DC 40 = 3000gp
Not sure how I feel about locks being more expensive and longer to craft than full-plate.
Well... with the way crafting works, that DC 40 lock will be much rarer than the full plate (you need either custom items, higher levels, or a lot of skill optimization), but for a crafter that is just skilled enough to make it normally taking ten (which is quite doable for the full plate at 1st level - 4 ranks, +3 skill focus, +2 masterwork tool, and (+2 racial (dwarf working in metal) or +2 Aid Another (apprentice with the same setup) or a +2 Int mod) lets you take ten to get DC 21, and could be a commoner-1)? The lock is MUCH faster.

Masterwork Full Plate has two sets: a DC 18 component at 1,500 gp, and a DC 20 component at 150 gp (both market).
Your lock has a DC 40 at 3,000 gp.

If you make exactly DC 40 each time, you're making 1,600 silver per week progress for the lock, and will get the job done in 18.75 weeks.
If you make exactly DC 20 each time (needed for the masterwork component), you're making 360 sp/week progress for the main armor, and will be done with that aspect in 41 and 2/3rd's weeks; the masterwork component will run at 400 sp/week, and will be done in 3.75 weeks, for a total of 45 and 5/12ths weeks. More than twice as long.

However: As noted by many others: Knock's a waste of a spell slot, generally. Verbal Component, so unless you're blowing resources on Silent Spell, it's not stealthy - may as well have the meatshield simply bash it down at no resource cost. If you're needing to be stealthy.... well, you're looking at 3rd+ for the spell level (or spending more build resources to keep it below 3rd). Meanwhile, the party skillmonkey can just handle it quietly with a modest skill check. If someone decided to put five cheap "Simple" DC 20 locks on there, you're going to need three spells... or one meatshield, or one rogue with a few skill ranks.

You don't need to change any game mechanics for open lock to remain viable. You just have to have the folks building places know such a spell exists.

Also...
Note that the core locks are cheap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#lock). DC 20, 25, 30, and 40 locks are respectively priced at 20, 40, 80, and 150 gp. Why the jump in price for your homebrew?

[Seharvepernfan]

Why the jump in price for your homebrew?

I have knock at 1d20+CL+casting stat mod, so it'll be a long time before a caster can hit the DC's, especially with the +5 from hold portal. Likewise, an amazing lock is DC 40 (45 with hold portal); at 150gp they'd be everywhere in dungeons (consider even simple traps cost 4 digits at least). For Open Lock, it takes an intensely focused build with a lot of spell support to hit that at low levels even with taking 20. I upped the price to keep people from using them all over the place.

[Zaq]

I have knock at 1d20+CL+casting stat mod, so it'll be a long time before a caster can hit the DC's, especially with the +5 from hold portal. Likewise, an amazing lock is DC 40 (45 with hold portal); at 150gp they'd be everywhere in dungeons (consider even simple traps cost 4 digits at least). It takes an intensely focused build with a lot of spell support to hit that at low levels even with taking 20. I upped the price to keep people from using them all over the place.

With respect, the phrase "solution in search of a problem" comes to mind . . .

[rel]

Knock's area is 10 ft2/CL; use the Titan-sized doors with locks at three sides (top/side/bottom)


Just increase the doors surface area by putting radiator grills on the back. Tangentially related; Incorporate a thin layer of lead into your super secret door to fool detect secret doors.

Ultimately, while I don't think open lock is a useful enough skill to take for reasons beyond fluff it is still nice when a character has it maxed out. Getting around doors without the skill is annoying enough to be noticeable and having alternatives available if no one wanted to roll rogue makes the game better.

TLDR I don't think the proposed house rules are a good way to make open lock more desirable as a skill.
Here is a possible alternative; Add a bunch of powerful high level uses to the open lock skill. Gives people investing in it some nice powers without penalizing parties without a burgler.

e.g.

DC 25 greater sabotage - as a standard action modify a door you have just unlocked. Anyone trying to lock, bar, jam or (optionally) even close the target door must first succeed on a DC 20 open lock check or break the door using the normal breaking rules. you can increase the target DC by increasing the DC of this check.
DC 30 instant reset - as an immediate action you cause a door you opened in the last 10 minutes to shut and lock itself. This represents flawless skill and careful planning on the characters part.
DC 40 bypass portal - as a swift action you gain a [ranks in open lock]% chance to ignore something that blocks your path as long as it can in some way be considered a portal or barrier (e.g. field of despair, arcane locked door, wall of force, disabled interplanar gate). The bypass manifests as both superior skill on the characters part but also unusual good luck or circumstance (e.g. you find a secret door in the wall, the Door With No Handle just happened to be left open). You can only try and bypass each barrier once.
DC 50 locksmiths ken - you spend a minute carefully examining a lock that has an unlock DC lower than your total bonus in open lock. You know whenever the lock is locked or unlocked and whenever the thing the lock is attached to is opened or closed. You can concentrate and learn approximately where the lock is and what is going on around it. You can only know one lock at a time losing your connection to your old lock when you examine a new one.

[RoboEmperor]

Open Lock is extremely useful.
1. Wizards don't need to waste a precious spell slot on knock.
2. Sorcerers don't need to waste a precious spell known on knock.
3. Parties don't need to waste money on a wand of knock.

If you really want locks to be opened exclusively by open lock have a special type of lock that has a small field of AMF around or inside it.

[ottdmk]

Open Lock has actually been a source of some great roleplay in our group. We had a fighter (who really should've been made a barbarian) who loved trying to bash down every door we encountered. I had so much fun having my guy grump around about amateurs before stepping in to open it after he failed, either in 6 seconds or, worst-case scenario, two minutes.

I'm looking forward to 12th level. I'm putting my last 5 ranks into Open Lock at that point. I'll be able to do DC 40 locks in two minutes, and everything else in 6 seconds. I've seen enough tv/movies to appreciate the cinematic quality of that. :smallbiggrin:

[daremetoidareyo]

...Or maybe you merge open lock with disable device, because a lock is a device, no?

It only works once with any given DM, but you can use disable device on the hinges...

[Deophaun]

I upped the price to keep people from using them all over the place.
Note that you've also turned the locks into high-value treasure.

[ericgrau]

Note that you've also turned the locks into high-value treasure.

"We need a rogue to help us harvest the locks from the dungeon."

It does remind me of the 1e days of scrapping all enemy weapons, collecting all ore & metals, taking iron doors off the hinges as scrap and so on methods of dungeon looting. A DM would give the party a copper dragon horde just for the fun that encumbrance management is to a looter. Mules, hirelings (so many hirelings...), bags, etc.

[The Random NPC]

My open locks (when I care about it) is an adamantium dagger.

[Seharvepernfan]

Note that you've also turned the locks into high-value treasure.

I'm fine with that, but I'd think harvesting them would be somewhat difficult.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm fine with that, but I'd think harvesting them would be somewhat difficult.

Not really. Unless you care about stealth, a couple whacks with an axe/ pick into the door/ wall around it should get 'er free unless the door is made of something valuable enough to warrant looting it too.

To the OP's changes, I'm with the folks saying this looks like a solution looking for a problem.

[Crake]

It only works once with any given DM, but you can use disable device on the hinges...

2 points for this:

1) You'd have to be a pretty poor architect if you're placing the hinges for a secure door on the outside and not the inside.
2) The latches for the hinges almost always require the door to be open to unscrew, so unless you're destroying them with acid or the like, you can't actually do this at all without having opened the door first.

[Khedrac]

When it comes to the value of the DC40+ lock, remember not everything is what it seems.

Take a basic DC 40 lock - worth thousands? Well, not unless you also have the key - it's worth a fraction of that without the key.

Take another DC40 lock with a key (but it is really, really stiff to open - one of the reasons why the DC was 40) - is it worth thousands? Well let's open up the lock - oh look, it is completely full of rust - I'm really impressed you could open it with just the leverage of a lock-pick - you really are skilled. Now once we have cleaned and oiled the lock so it is working properly you have a DC20 lock (and a 5gp bill for the repair).

If you DM likes to lock doors (which was actually the rule for early D&D - all doors were locked or stuck and needed to be forced open by PCs, even if the scrawny kobolds who lived there had no issues) then the next thing for them to look at is "is the door used?" If not then there's a good chance that it's a crap lock that has rusted solid (or similar). They should still put the occasional treasure lock in (with keys), but just because the DC is high does not mean that the lock can be sold for much.

[The Random NPC]

Really, no matter what you do to the lock, it can be solved by an adamantine dagger. Or an arrow if cost is a factor. If you make the wall of sufficiently rare material to deal with the adamantine then you've just given them more treasure and sidetracked your own game because of course, the room that's impossible to get into is important.

[weckar]

You cannot always take 20 on open lock. Time or threat may prevent it.

[Elkad]

Really, no matter what you do to the lock, it can be solved by an adamantine dagger. Or an arrow if cost is a factor. If you make the wall of sufficiently rare material to deal with the adamantine then you've just given them more treasure and sidetracked your own game because of course, the room that's impossible to get into is important.

Sure, until the DM starts coating the doors/walls in 1/40th of an inch (about 3 layers of household aluminum foil) of Adamantine as well (at the same weight as steel, that's 1lb per sqft) for DR20/+1hp. Which makes a 80x36 adamantine-plated door worth 4000gp-ish, if you assume the price of a chain shirt is all in the materials, and none in the difficulty of working with it.

Of course that makes the doors themselves treasure. CL20 Hardening cast on each iron door would work as well, with no M component.

And then someone learns Mountain Hammer.

And then the DM switches to Wall of Force everywhere.


Better to just defend your doors.
Monsters hear you smashing it down and buff up / call their friends while you work. Or just pack up their treasure and head out the back door - no encounter for you.
Traps can work too. Tripwire attached to the latch assembly. If you move the latch properly (because the door is unlocked), the device disables itself. Otherwise, rocks fall, lava pours out, etc. The denizens might not even know the trap is there, because they have the key.

[Seharvepernfan]

My open locks (when I care about it) is an adamantium dagger.


Really, no matter what you do to the lock, it can be solved by an adamantine dagger. Or an arrow if cost is a factor. If you make the wall of sufficiently rare material to deal with the adamantine then you've just given them more treasure and sidetracked your own game because of course, the room that's impossible to get into is important.

I'm guessing you don't know about "magically treated". If you look up walls in the DMG, there is an option to magically treat them to double their hardness and increase their hp and break DCs, it costs 1500gp per 10ft section. Since you can have iron walls, and iron has a hardness of 10, you can have walls that are immune to the adamantine hardness bypass for not that much money. I added the option to do that to doors+locks (but it only raises their break DC by half one quarter the normal amount).

[The Random NPC]

I'm guessing you don't know about "magically treated". If you look up walls in the DMG, there is an option to magically treat them to double their hardness and increase their hp and break DCs, it costs 1500gp per 10ft section. Since you can have iron walls, and iron has a hardness of 10, you can have walls that are immune to the adamantine hardness bypass for not that much money. I added the option to do that to doors+locks (but it only raises their break DC by half one quarter the normal amount).

I did know about that, but I'd forgotten it because my GM never uses those options.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm guessing you don't know about "magically treated". If you look up walls in the DMG, there is an option to magically treat them to double their hardness and increase their hp and break DCs, it costs 1500gp per 10ft section. Since you can have iron walls, and iron has a hardness of 10, you can have walls that are immune to the adamantine hardness bypass for not that much money. I added the option to do that to doors+locks (but it only raises their break DC by half one quarter the normal amount).

The underlined points don't match. Not unless your dungeon is absolutely tiny. They won't smash the lock anymore but they're still plenty capable of going through adjacent, untreated sections of wall unless you do the whole place.

My usual method for dealing with this sort of behavior is to use the magic door construct (that I can't remember the source for atm) and have it ready to summon guards of some sort if he's tampered with. Alternately, sandwich hazardous substances between the sides of the door/wall or make stealth vastly preferable to the kick-in-the-door method.

The trick is to make breaking through undesirable rather than merely annoying.

[Goaty14]

(that I can't remember the source for atm)

Grandfather Plaque (Dragon Compendium, page 207)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Grandfather Plaque (Dragon Compendium, page 207)

That's probably something similar. I'm pretty sure the one I'm thinking of was in one of the WotC books though.

[Fizban]

My usual method for dealing with this sort of behavior is to use the magic door construct (that I can't remember the source for atm) and have it ready to summon guards of some sort if he's tampered with. Alternately, sandwich hazardous substances between the sides of the door/wall or make stealth vastly preferable to the kick-in-the-door method.
"Random"/wandering encounter rolls seemed to be the standard for this, at least in the older modules I've read. You whale on the door, and the noise provokes rolls (or just alerts the designated inhabitants), no magic required. World's Largest Dungeon has a region where there's a wandering superboss on the encounter table, and multiple doors the PCs might try to bash through which trigger random encounter rolls- hilarity ensues?

Trapping the door ought to have the same effect, or rather, damaging effects that trigger when the door is destroyed are just traps with different triggers. Though I suppose part of the point is that by saying it's inside the door/not actually a trap it can't be disabled. But if the goal is just to get people to use a rogue rather than bash everything down, traps should also suffice.