In need of cheese

[Jarmen4u]

I'm playing in a campaign that is famously brutal and more than a little homebrewed, and currently both of my characters are in danger of not existing anymore. So it's time to start planning a backup character.

I've got a few scraps of ideas I want to find a way to put together, but I'm at a loss (also I'm really indecisive).

Because of how certain combat encounters have gone recently, I want to primarily fight unarmed, if possible. Thought about using vows, and DM mentioned combining those with tattoo monk? (Never heard of it). Then there's the desire to include cleric/divine magic for buffing, possibly DMM cheese (sans nightsticks) to persist lots of buffs and wade into combat like that.

Or would it be better to just do some kind of war weaver cleric thing and buff everyone else to do it for me? I'd prefer some kind of build that would eventually (this will ideally go epic pretty fast) allow me to win a slapfight with an evil demigod.

I know I'm all over the place, but I just don't know what my options are. Help?

EDIT: I'd prefer ideas that didn't rely on having items, especially specific magic items, as WBL doesn't exist and there are no magic marts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

BoED vows tend to suck, especially Vow of Poverty (in any campaign that actually grants close to WBL, and for anyone who isn't a druid or psion, really) and Vow of Peace/Nonviolence, which are rather extreme campaign disruptors.

If you want a serious powerhouse of a character who is a monk of all things, how about this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863)? Only instead of monk 17/XYZ 3, take two levels of martial monk for two prereq-less fighter feats (Try Improved Whirlwind Attack, from Dragon #343 and Karmic Strike, maybe? Or possibly Distant Shot and Storm of Throws, both epic feats from the SRD.), and eighteen levels of soulbound warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm), with the Tashalatora feat. Use the unarmed strike enhancers from the first link, along with the soulbound warrior to summon a pair of gauntlets or iron knuckles to further enhance your unarmed strikes. You can also use the Landlord feat on a building shaped like a sword for your stronghold, use the Landlord money to enhance it as a sizing/morphing weapon, enhance it as this psychoactive skin of proteus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23285432&postcount=324) for infinite shapeshifting (and infinite healing), and use that to further augment yourself both in and out of combat.

You end up with a seriously epic unarmed strike well before epic levels, and by level 20 you have a minimum of 800,000 gp to invest in a psychoactive skin of proteus that can get you tons of miscellaneous immunities and bonuses. And since it's a psychoactive skin, it's slotless, and therefore doesn't take up your normal body slots.

If Ravenloft is accessible (2nd party, more or less), make all of your "magic items" devices, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. Cannot be dispelled or disjoined, and they work in an AMF and in dead magic zones/planes.

[Jarmen4u]

I think one of the main reasons why I was leaning into vows so much, especially VoP, was that WBL is really not respected at all, or at least hasn't been up til now, and there isn't really a reliable way to get any one specific magic item. So I figured I'd stop praying for a specific thing to appear and just be my own magic item 😁

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think one of the main reasons why I was leaning into vows so much, especially VoP, was that WBL is really not respected at all, or at least hasn't been up til now, and there isn't really a reliable way to get any one specific magic item. So I figured I'd stop praying for a specific thing to appear and just be my own magic item 😁Do the Landlord trick + Ancestral Relic + Item Familiar + soulbound warrior ACF. I have a thread on this very thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568942-Feats-that-Grant-Scaling-Magic-Items)

[Jarmen4u]

Do the Landlord trick + Ancestral Relic + Item Familiar + soulbound warrior ACF. I have a thread on this very thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568942-Feats-that-Grant-Scaling-Magic-Items)

It might be because it's late and I'm tired, but what is the trick exactly? I read over that thread and it mostly just seemed to be ideas for generating lots of money by spending feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It might be because it's late and I'm tired, but what is the trick exactly? I read over that thread and it mostly just seemed to be ideas for generating lots of money by spending feats.Use Landlord for a building that happens to be shaped like a weapon (like a hollow, Huge sized sword with a door in the "hilt," for instance, especially if it's actually usable like a weapon by an appropriately sized creature). That building/weapon is now your stronghold. Enhance it as a magic item -- such as a +1 morphing/sizing weapon, and morph it into a weapon that fits into another item slot, like a gauntlet, or possibly a psychoactive skin of the claw. (Here is a list of some of said weapon-items. Psychoactive skins are mentioned down the thread a ways. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569187-Weapons-that-Take-Up-Body-Slots)) Then enhance it as an item of that type, using the MIC rules to add the enhancements of the above illithid graft/psychoactive skin of proteus/possum pouch combo. The thing is still your stronghold, as it can be reverted to a building at any time; it just also happens to be a magic item that you can pour your Landlord money into and enhance as such. And if it's a Ravenloft device, it can't be dispelled or disjoined, it works in an AMF/dead magic zone or plane/etc.

[Jarmen4u]

Use Landlord for a building that happens to be shaped like a weapon (like a hollow, Huge sized sword with a door in the "hilt," for instance, especially if it's actually usable like a weapon by an appropriately sized creature). That building/weapon is now your stronghold. Enhance it as a magic item -- such as a +1 morphing/sizing weapon, and morph it into a weapon that fits into another item slot, like a gauntlet, or possibly a psychoactive skin of the claw. (Here is a list of some of said weapon-items. Psychoactive skins are mentioned down the thread a ways. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569187-Weapons-that-Take-Up-Body-Slots)) Then enhance it as an item of that type, using the MIC rules to add the enhancements of the above illithid graft/psychoactive skin of proteus/possum pouch combo. The thing is still your stronghold, as it can be reverted to a building at any time; it just also happens to be a magic item that you can pour your Landlord money into and enhance as such. And if it's a Ravenloft device, it can't be dispelled or disjoined, it works in an AMF/dead magic zone or plane/etc.

Well I'll definitely keep that in mind, but it sounds a bit silly as far as justifications go. Being able to get almost a million gold to dump into a magic castle for free, and give it the ability to turn into magic skin? I dunno how the DM would react.
Either way though, I'm mostly looking for class builds based on the general ideas I have in the OP, though if there's something else (like druid for instance) that can do what I'm trying to do but better, keep the ideas coming!

[Maat Mons]

For a character with no monk levels, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (Tome of Battle, page 33) gives an unarmed strike progression based on your character level. It caps out at 2d6 at 16th level, which is as much as any ordinary weapon.

If your DM likes to deprive you of items, there are a couple ways to ensure you'll still be able to cast spells that require a divine focus. The Worldly Focus feat (Faiths of Eberron, page 148) directly removes the need for any divine focus. Warforged have armor that is a part of them, and any armor can be Sanctified (Dungeonscape, page 34), which causes it to act as a holy symbol.

Most cleric spells don't have inexpensive material components, so you should be good without Eschew Materials.

The Greater Luminous Armor spell (Book of Exalted Deeds, page 102) gives you a +8 armor bonus for one hour per level. Or you could take the Dragonscale Husk alternative class feature (Dragon Magic, page 12), for +12 to AC by 18th level. Or be a warforged with the Adamantine Body feat for a +8 armor bonus that you can then cast Magic Vestment on, giving you a total of +13.

[Jarmen4u]

I like the way the dragonhusk sounds, though I'm not sure if I can find a dragon-blooded source that'll be allowed. I'll try anyway.

So class wise, would some kind of VoP tattoo monk/sacred fist/cleric combination work well? Or am I better off doing something else? I'm mostly trying to compensate for the difficulty of the enemies we face (last major foe we lost to was juiblex) and the lack of good magic items, and buff my way to godliness.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

VoP prevents clerics from using a holy symbol, which is required for every spell they cast. Not a good idea.

[Jarmen4u]

VoP prevents clerics from using a holy symbol, which is required for every spell they cast. Not a good idea.

Considering they let you get away with a spell component pouch, I don't see that being an issue. Besides, you could carve a holy symbol into a quarterstaff or sew it into your 'simple clothes,' boom, divine focus. Or... Worldly Focus.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ask your DM to houserule in using MoI's incarnum-based feats (not just [Incarnum] ones) for VoP? They're ever so much more useful than [Exalted] feats, and you won't be using your body slots anyway.

Also, VoP should allow you to use grafts once they're in place, since they're now part of your body, so that psychoactive skin graft is still on the table, just you know.

[Jarmen4u]

Ask your DM to houserule in using MoI's incarnum-based feats (not just [Incarnum] ones) for VoP? They're ever so much more useful than [Exalted] feats, and you won't be using your body slots anyway.

Also, VoP should allow you to use grafts once they're in place, since they're now part of your body, so that psychoactive skin graft is still on the table, just you know.

I'll ask, and he might agree since I know he likes incarnum things. What specific incarnum feats are worth taking here?

As for the skin graft, what do you have to do to get that done?

[tyckspoon]

I'll ask, and he might agree since I know he likes incarnum things. What specific incarnum feats are worth taking here?


You could definitely do a lot worse than just taking several instances of Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, and Bonus Essentia. Not sure what else there is you might specifically want, off the top of my head, but I'm not near that book so I can't check to see which feats are [Incarnum] and which aren't...

Addendum: Found a way to look it up. The feats that give you Essentia receptacles are mostly [Incarnum] feats. The ones that 'merely' let you do more with them, like Bonus Essentia or Improved Essentia Capacity are.. not, for some reason. So if you were allowed to take only [Incarnum] bonus feats you'd miss out on a lot of the support feats that would let you make better use of them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're going cleric, make sure you go cloistered cleric. You're not missing out on anything, given that VoP doesn't allow you to wear armor or wield non-simple weapons anyway.

Or you could go something like warmage or beguiler/rainbow servant 10, which gives some nice class abilities and allows you to spontaneously cast from the entire cleric list.

Or the archivist gives you access to both the cleric and wizard lists, though not the full spontaneity of the rainbow servant build above.


I'll ask, and he might agree since I know he likes incarnum things. What specific incarnum feats are worth taking here?Shape Soulmeld, for sure. Figure out what kinds of things you'll want to be doing, and choose soulmelds that give you major boosts to what you want to do. Also, as many immunities as you can handle. The Open Chakra feats, of course, because a lot of the best soulmeld abilities need bound, and you have no reason not to. Unless you want to cast enough open chakra spells every day (or every other day, if they're Extended) to bind all the soulmelds you have. The phase spider cloak is one of the best ones, IMO, since it grants you at-will movement-based ethereality, which vastly increases mobility, defensive ability while moving, and allows you to bypass a lot of obstacles simply by moving through them -- walls, locked doors, traps, enemy bodies blocking your path, and so on. And since you're invisible and inaudible while ethereal to anyone without a special sensory mode like true seeing, it's a great boost to stealth for the normally stealthless clerical type. Combine with spider climb stance, from ToB, to ghost along ceilings and walls, to make it even better. (A dip in a few ToB classes would massively improve your build on a number of fronts, from infinite healing for the party to the scent special quality to save boosting, at the obvious cost of a caster level or two.)

Other soulmelds that grant similar abilities that might be important when they come up, such as cerulean sandals, for water walking, or some of the incarnate's soulmelds for class and racial abilities you wouldn't get otherwise. Evasion? Uncanny dodge? Darkvision? Extra arms?

Incarnum feats that boost spellcasting, such as Midnight Metamagic, and any other incarnum feats to boost your essentia points.

If any of your soulmelds grant bonuses to things you really want to boost, such as grappling (protip, do not grapple if you can avoid it), then grab feats to increase your essentia capacity in those soulmelds.

If you want two soulmelds bound to one chakra, make sure to take the feat to allow that.

Hidden/Wild Talent + Psicarnum Infusion means you should be able to fill any [Incarnum] feats with essentia for 24 hours by expending your psionic focus. Ask your DM on this one.


As for the skin graft, what do you have to do to get that done?If you don't want to use the Landlord feat, then the psionic trick covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432) (Let Me Touch Your Skin) should pretty much cover everything. Find someone who can use the Illithid Graft Flesh feat (Lords of Madness). They turn your skin into an illithid skin graft, enhance it with the properties of a psychoactive skin (plus any assorted extras you want, such as the possum pouch combo, and maybe a starmantle cloak and retributive amulet effect [BoED p116]). Easier with Landlord, since it's hard to pull together those kinds of funds, otherwise. Then, once you have everything paid for and installed, take Vow of Poverty. Unless you pull some character rebuilding tricks, you lose out on some VoP feats, but the skin is valuable enough that it's worth it.

You wanted cheese. This is cheese.


You could definitely do a lot worse than just taking several instances of Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, and Bonus Essentia. Not sure what else there is you might specifically want, off the top of my head, but I'm not near that book so I can't check to see which feats are [Incarnum] and which aren't...

Addendum: Found a way to look it up. The feats that give you Essentia receptacles are mostly [Incarnum] feats. The ones that 'merely' let you do more with them, like Bonus Essentia or Improved Essentia Capacity are.. not, for some reason. So if you were allowed to take only [Incarnum] bonus feats you'd miss out on a lot of the support feats that would let you make better use of them.Shape Soulmeld is not an [Incarnum] feat. That's why I said "incarnum-based feats" instead of "[Incarnum] feats."

[Jarmen4u]

I appreciate the cheese, a lot of my decision process relies on how much I can get my DM to agree to, as with all cheese.




If you don't want to use the Landlord feat, then the psionic trick covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432) (Let Me Touch Your Skin) should pretty much cover everything. Find someone who can use the Illithid Graft Flesh feat (Lords of Madness). They turn your skin into an illithid skin graft, enhance it with the properties of a psychoactive skin (plus any assorted extras you want, such as the possum pouch combo, and maybe a starmantle cloak and retributive amulet effect [BoED p116]). Easier with Landlord, since it's hard to pull together those kinds of funds, otherwise. Then, once you have everything paid for and installed, take Vow of Poverty. Unless you pull some character rebuilding tricks, you lose out on some VoP feats, but the skin is valuable enough that it's worth it.

That trick sounds really dangerous and bound to go terribly wrong. I'm still not 100% understanding the landlord feat here. The idea is to spend the gold on a building that you can wear?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That trick sounds really dangerous and bound to go terribly wrong. I'm still not 100% understanding the landlord feat here. The idea is to spend the gold on a building that you can wear?Basically. A structure capable of shapeshifting into other things that you tag your Landlord feat on while it's a building, then continue using Landlord to pump it full of magic item abilities while you're "wearing" it as your skin.

If it's a device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood), it's unaffected by dispelling, disjunctions, AMFs, and dead magic, so you don't have to worry about getting accidentally flayed by one of those things if the DM decides to be nasty about adjudicating it, making it considerably less dangerous. Just make sure the bio-battery is built-in to the skin itself, to prevent it from triggering your Vow.

[Quertus]

Did I read this right, or can a Cleric not cast spells with VoP unless they take Worldly Focus?

Cleric seems like one of the two classes that most fit the theme (the other being Monk, of course).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Did I read this right, or can a Cleric not cast spells with VoP unless they take Worldly Focus?

Cleric seems like one of the two classes that most fit the theme (the other being Monk, of course).Welcome to an insignificantly tiny fraction of the dumbidity of Vow of Poverty.

[Sto]

Well given the circumstance I would suggest Pepper Jack.

All jokes aside, if you take VoP get a race that grants you flight. The easiest ways to do this would be Dragonborn of Bahamut, Raptoran, or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from races of the dragon. If you go with Dragon Wings maybe throw in a little bit of Dragonwrought Kobold.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If going dragonborn, the best race for it is warforged. You lose your body armor (which usually takes a feat) and your slam attack, but you keep your [living construct] subtype, which is where 95% of the warforged's awesomeness lies. Another 3% is in the construct type (for alter self/polymorph/metamorphosis shenanigans), which you would also keep.

[Arael666]

I just want to point out that a two lvl dip into totemist gets you a toten chakra binding, wich you can use to bind giralon arms soulmeld and get 4 natural attacks (weird interaction, they are all considered primary, so no atk penalty), and you can use essentia to apply enhancemnet bonus (get bonus essentia at lvl 6, since 2 lvls of totemist only gives you 2 essentia).

[Maat Mons]

If you're going to be a spellcaster who punches things, Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) is an obvious choice. That bumps your damage up to colossal. For a 2d6 weapon, that's 8d6 damage. For a 2d8 weapon, it's 8d8 damage. And for 2d10, it's 12d6 damage.

Of course, Greater Mighty Wallop isn't on the Cleric spell list. But there are ways to gain access to spells from other lists.




I like the way the dragonhusk sounds, though I'm not sure if I can find a dragon-blooded source that'll be allowed. I'll try anyway.

Bear in mind that Dragonscale Husk is incompatible with Cloistered Cleric, and prestige classes won't advance it. So Greater Luminous Armor still might be the better choice.




Did I read this right, or can a Cleric not cast spells with VoP unless they take Worldly Focus?

There's also Ancestral Speaker (Dragon 311, page 47), but you'd lose Turn Undead and Domains. I'd stick with Worldly Focus unless your campaign setting is incompatible.




So class wise, would some kind of VoP tattoo monk/sacred fist/cleric combination work well?

Even with a Sacred Fist build, you might still only be at 2d6 unarmed damage right now. But I suppose you're setting yourself up to finish out the unarmed progression later. And having a level of monk does open up your options for casting buff spells on your unarmed strike.

Since you mentioned asking your DM about things, here's another one. The table for Sacred Fist says the class only advances spellcasting at some of the levels. But the text says it advances spellcasting every single level.

I don't recommend Tattooed Monk though.

Also, remember that Sacred Fist has special multiclassing restrictions. So if your DM is willing to create an epic progression for it, you'll probably need to go Monk 2 / Cleric 8 / Sacred Fist 10, in that order, to be able to actually use said epic progression.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're going for an unarmed build, you actually want a level in monk. Improved Unarmed Strike alone won't make your unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons, meaning it's much harder to augment them to the same degree. A tooth of Leraje (from Tome of Magic), for instance, won't work on a standard unarmed strike because greater magic weapon won't.


You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Greater magic weapon is a cheap and easy way to get a +5 enhancement bonus at higher levels, and the tooth is a cheap way to get it all day without eating up a spell slot.

It's good, then, that a 2 level dip in monk is extremely heavy on what it grants you, especially with ACFs in the mix.

[Zaq]

Well given the circumstance I would suggest Pepper Jack.

All jokes aside, if you take VoP get a race that grants you flight. The easiest ways to do this would be Dragonborn of Bahamut, Raptoran, or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from races of the dragon. If you go with Dragon Wings maybe throw in a little bit of Dragonwrought Kobold.

Be careful with the exact timing on taking VoP vs. going Dragonborn, though. The Rite of Rebirth costs 100 gp. You didn't, like, want to take your Vow early on or anything to maximize the benefit or anything silly like that, right?

[Icarium]

It's a long post and I've read a bit of it..

Recently I made a VoP build that I really look forward to playing; It's a wildshape ranger with the boosted spellcasting (don't remember the name atm), master of many forms.. It isn't a hugely powerfull build, but you are item-non-dependant and with wildshape you get massive flexibility..

At least I like it myself 😁

[Twurps]

I'm once again amazed at the amount of cheese people wil run by their DM in lieu of working out a decent way for a cleric to take VoP.
I know it's not the best written feat/most powerfull feat, but with only half the creativity used in other suggestions, it would still work great.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm once again amazed at the amount of cheese people wil run by their DM in lieu of working out a decent way for a cleric to take VoP.
I know it's not the best written feat/most powerfull feat, but with only half the creativity used in other suggestions, it would still work great.Considering that VoP prevents you from sleeping inside, using doorknobs, reading books, and even looking at sculptures and paintings without permanently losing its benefits, and there's no way to optimize it without completely cheating the intent, it's pretty much a lost cause.

[Menzath]

Yeah I ran by using VoP to a dm once, and pretty much said, let me be netural, and still able to use costly spell foci if party members carry it for me, and if I see a thematic feat that's not op I'm taking that as A VoP bonus feat.
In return I can't actually use any items for myself that I own.

But if your dm isn't cool with that or any other fixes, take a gander at the stuff mentioned here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515138-How-To-Turn-A-Psion-Into-A-Star-Destroyer

[iTreeby]

I feel like being a landlord is somehow a violation of the vow of poverty.

[Calthropstu]

Sorcerer 13, psion 3, theurge 4.

Add some feats to get an extra sorcerer caster level, pick up psychic reformation and boom.

All spells are now at your disposal.

Alternatively: Sorcerer 20, gain access to ledership, get a psion cohort or somehow gain access to free psychi reformation.

[Twurps]

Considering that VoP prevents you from sleeping inside, using doorknobs, reading books, and even looking at sculptures and paintings without permanently losing its benefits, and there's no way to optimize it without completely cheating the intent, it's pretty much a lost cause.

That's exactly what I meant. That's one of the most creative ways of reading VoP in a negative way. If you put the same energy that went into finding al those no-no's into finding sollutions, it's very playable. I've played it a couple of times and it worked out great. Admittedly mostly in an attempt to nerf myself a little so I don't outperform the tier 3's to much, but still.
In my experiences: any significant drop in wealth compared to standard WBL (even like being out in the wilderness for a level or 3) can bring a VoP build out on top provided you have flight*.

*and provided you can actually use doorknobs, look at paintings, etc. Our group has never had those restrictions, nor are we inclined to implement them.

[Jarmen4u]

That's exactly what I meant. That's one of the most creative ways of reading VoP in a negative way. If you put the same energy that went into finding al those no-no's into finding sollutions, it's very playable. I've played it a couple of times and it worked out great. Admittedly mostly in an attempt to nerf myself a little so I don't outperform the tier 3's to much, but still.
In my experiences: any significant drop in wealth compared to standard WBL (even like being out in the wilderness for a level or 3) can bring a VoP build out on top provided you have flight*.

*and provided you can actually use doorknobs, look at paintings, etc. Our group has never had those restrictions, nor are we inclined to implement them.

Yeah, the main reason I even considered VoP is because standard wealth isn't a thing. There are no "magic marts" and we rarely get treasure. And when we do, it's unidentified so we have to spend time casting identify (which in this game carries the risk of taking whatever curse the item has upon you), and nobody wants to do that.