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Millface
2018-09-18, 12:39 PM
I need some opinions here. I recently started a campaign for Curse of Strahd and I'm running a Hexblade/Divine Soul Scourge Aasimar.

Right now, I'm Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 1. I can't for the life of me decide how I want to level it going forward. I know that I do want this character to be a gish melee attacker at some point. His background is that he's basically a hitman for Kelemvor, when someone/something has reached it's time, it's my job to make sure it dies. When those that aren't destined to die are in trouble, it's my job to save them. As a hitman of sorts, eldritch smite seems like it's non-negotiable, I absolutely need to be able to do some huge burst damage when I need to for the character to be able to back up his big, self righteous mouth.

I'm pretty stumped from here on though. So far I'm Hexblade 2 for the proficiencies, Invocations, and Curse/Hex. Until I'm able to reach level 5 in Hexblade, he's going to play mostly as an EB turret. Sorcerer levels give me far more spell slots to play with plus metamagic. Warlock levels get me closer to smite and extra attack.

I could go hexblade 3 for pact of the blade (At which point I'll probably dual wield), and second level spells. Or I could go Divine Soul 2 for metamagic and another first level spell slot. I know I want 2 levels of sorcerer by 5 so that I can Quicken EB on a cursed target for 4d10+24 (where the first iteration of my burst damage comes online). But I also want to get to 4, then 5 in warlock faster for ASI and Extra Attack/Smite.

Or I could just drop the idea of smiting altogether and stick with EB and stay a ranged character, but 8d8 smite damage on crits is pretty hard to turn down. Especially when I can quicken EB before my attack, then make two attacks.



TL;DR I'm 2/1 and have no idea where to go from here. By 10 I'll be 5/5, by 20 It'll be Hexblade 5/Divine Soul 15. At least that's what I think I'm going to do.

samcifer
2018-09-18, 12:43 PM
So how are you playing him right now as far as combat goes? Are you staying ranged or trying to be in melee most often during battles?

Millface
2018-09-18, 01:28 PM
So how are you playing him right now as far as combat goes? Are you staying ranged or trying to be in melee most often during battles?

I stay back and blast until something gets in my face, at which point I draw and start going melee. I'm pretty tanky, so occasionally I'll fun straight for the monster if it's a tough encounter but otherwise I hang back and let them come to me. Eventually I'd like to be able to be first in all the time, but I can be patient on that.

Asmotherion
2018-09-18, 01:39 PM
You, my friend, are at the worst point of Sorlock Level up. You just need to Take In the following Sorcerer level (it will be hard) 'till you get at the sweet point of Sorcerer 3 Warlock 2 (Were you get your Metamagic). At that point, whatever you do is a win win situation. Take a level of Warlock? Pact option. Level of Sorcerer? ASI/Possible Feat, more spells and more Metamagic.

It's this one Sorcerer level that's hard to take, but you'll have to get to it eventually, and better get out with it now that the xp cost is low, than latter that the xp cost will be higher for a bad reward.

PS: Also, have a plan in mind on were you want to end up with your Sorlock. You may decide that your 2 Warlock levels are enough, and not to take your 3rd level at all for a faster progression as an actual Spellcaster (or Delay taking it for latter levels).

Millface
2018-09-18, 01:49 PM
You, my friend, are at the worst point of Sorlock Level up. You just need to Take In the following Sorcerer level (it will be hard) 'till you get at the sweet point of Sorcerer 3 Warlock 2 (Were you get your Metamagic). At that point, whatever you do is a win win situation. Take a level of Warlock? Pact option. Level of Sorcerer? ASI/Possible Feat, more spells and more Metamagic.

It's this one Sorcerer level that's hard to take, but you'll have to get to it eventually, and better get out with it now that the xp cost is low, than latter that the xp cost will be higher for a bad reward.

PS: Also, have a plan in mind on were you want to end up with your Sorlock. You may decide that your 2 Warlock levels are enough, and not to take your 3rd level at all for a faster progression as an actual Spellcaster (or Delay taking it for latter levels).

I do like that last note quite a bit. I know that no matter what I'm going to want to take several levels of sorcerer, but I'm waaaay on the fence on whether or not I want to take the extra levels of warlock for smite and extra attack.

I keep thinking of it this way though... I will want to take Warlock 3, smite or no smite, for the pact. If I don't go for smite pact of the chain gives me a familiar to deliver ranged Cure Wounds, which is really, really good. Then... I'm only one level away from an ASI. At which point I'm only one level away from the smite/extra attack that I was on the fence about and may as well have taken blade and gone for it. This is why I have a headache about this MC. I love it, conceptually, and it's going to be viable either way, so I can't see a clear path to take.

Keravath
2018-09-18, 02:36 PM
I do like that last note quite a bit. I know that no matter what I'm going to want to take several levels of sorcerer, but I'm waaaay on the fence on whether or not I want to take the extra levels of warlock for smite and extra attack.

I keep thinking of it this way though... I will want to take Warlock 3, smite or no smite, for the pact. If I don't go for smite pact of the chain gives me a familiar to deliver ranged Cure Wounds, which is really, really good. Then... I'm only one level away from an ASI. At which point I'm only one level away from the smite/extra attack that I was on the fence about and may as well have taken blade and gone for it. This is why I have a headache about this MC. I love it, conceptually, and it's going to be viable either way, so I can't see a clear path to take.

If all you want is a familiar to deliver cure wounds then Pact of the Tome with the correct invocation works just as well if you take the Find Familiar spell and pick an owl. Pact of the Tome also possibly gives you all rituals up to second level (independent of caster type). Pact of the Chain familiars offer several cool upgrades which can make them better scouts but it is up to you whether those features are worthwhile.

Also, Pact of the Chain does NOT create the version of the special familiar creatures from the monster manual ... it creates the familiar versions from the back of the players handbook. The ones created by the find familiar spell are spirits that take the form of the familiar rather than a specific creature of that type and so lack some of the special features from the monster manual versions. (like magic resistance).

P.S. If you aren't constrained by the Adventurer's League +1 rule (limits which books you can use to define your character abilities) then you can use booming blade and green flame blade for melee attacks which will help keep your melee attack options almost competitive with eldritch blast. e.g at level 5 ... booming blade + quickened booming blade would give a possible 4d8 + 2cha (+2d8 if the target moves) vs eldritch blast + quickened eldritch blast 4d10 + 4xcha. Green flame blade might be a better option if there are some adjacent targets.

Millface
2018-09-18, 02:44 PM
If all you want is a familiar to deliver cure wounds then Pact of the Tome with the correct invocation works just as well if you take the Find Familiar spell and pick an owl. Pact of the Tome also possibly gives you all rituals up to second level (independent of caster type). Pact of the Chain familiars offer several cool upgrades which can make them better scouts but it is up to you whether those features are worthwhile.

Also, Pact of the Chain does NOT create the version of the special familiar creatures from the monster manual ... it creates the familiar versions from the back of the players handbook. The ones created by the find familiar spell are spirits that take the form of the familiar rather than a specific creature of that type and so lack some of the special features from the monster manual versions. (like magic resistance).

Good to know!

My mostly likely course from here is to just go sorcerer to 5 and then I can decide if I want to take the 3 warlock levels for what I originally wanted (smiter, melee tank) or stay with what the build will be up to that point (High AC/HP support turret). I do have Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade so even without extra attack I won't be terrible in melee either way.

Edit for previous edit: I'm not constrained, thankfully. Anything in a published book is fair game at my table. For some reason I'm constantly forgetting that I can quicken the melee cantrips, that kind of answers my dilemma for me. Sorc to 5, then Warlock to 5, then Sorc the rest. As long as I'm viable at range and in melee, can keep Bless up and throw some heals the character will be more or less exactly what I'm going for at all levels. It'll just be MORE of what I was going for once I hit 5/5.

samcifer
2018-09-18, 02:54 PM
Metamagic will really help you a lot, as will lv. 3 spells, so I recommend getting to sorc 5 first. At srce 4, get more charisma of you're not at 20. If you are, I recommend the Toughness feat to help compensate for the low hp sorc sticks you with. Once at Sorc 5, you can go back to Warlock. If you want to have an extra attack with a melee weapon, Take the Pact of the Blade and get to Warlock 5 to unlock the Extra Attack eldritch evocation. Hexblade 6's ability to create a pet will help you with advantage. After that, I'd recommend going back to Sorc to get more levels. Animate Objects combined with a bag of ball-bearings, (preferably silvered or Adamantine ones) can make for fun chaos and up to 10 attack rolls in a single turn from that spell alone. Banish and Polymorph are good ways to take out an enemy quickly and Reverse Gravity can be a lot of fun from what I hear (haven't ever gotten to a high enough level to use the spell myself, but some folks swear by it.) If you plan on being in melee, try to take the Warcaster feat at some point. It can really help to keep concentration spells going.

Corran
2018-09-18, 03:47 PM
Are you allowed to rebuild? Would you consider doing so or are you really sold on that particular mc?

Millface
2018-09-19, 07:40 AM
Are you allowed to rebuild? Would you consider doing so or are you really sold on that particular mc?

I'm pretty sold but that doesn't mean you can't suggest something.

Aaramis
2018-09-19, 01:57 PM
Metamagic will really help you a lot, as will lv. 3 spells, so I recommend getting to sorc 5 first. At srce 4, get more charisma of you're not at 20. If you are, I recommend the Toughness feat to help compensate for the low hp sorc sticks you with. Once at Sorc 5, you can go back to Warlock. If you want to have an extra attack with a melee weapon, Take the Pact of the Blade and get to Warlock 5 to unlock the Extra Attack eldritch evocation. Hexblade 6's ability to create a pet will help you with advantage. After that, I'd recommend going back to Sorc to get more levels. Animate Objects combined with a bag of ball-bearings, (preferably silvered or Adamantine ones) can make for fun chaos and up to 10 attack rolls in a single turn from that spell alone. Banish and Polymorph are good ways to take out an enemy quickly and Reverse Gravity can be a lot of fun from what I hear (haven't ever gotten to a high enough level to use the spell myself, but some folks swear by it.) If you plan on being in melee, try to take the Warcaster feat at some point. It can really help to keep concentration spells going.

This, essentially, although if you go to 6 Hexblade, it'd be awful tempting to grab at least 1 more level asap. 7 Warlock = level 4 spells = Shadow of Moil!. This is the melee option, obviously. You'd probably end up with 3 or 5 Sorcerer levels here, using metamagic when needed, and burning your Sorc level 1 and 2 slots on stuff like Shield or Misty Step so as not to use those precious upcast Warlock spells on that stuff.

Otherwise, I'd stop at 2 or 3 Warlock and go the rest in Sorcerer if you plan on being more of a blaster. High level spells, as noted, can make a huge difference, especially if your group has no other arcane caster. Upcast counterspell or AoE spells can instantly end an encounter or save your party's life.

Corran
2018-09-19, 02:40 PM
I'm pretty sold but that doesn't mean you can't suggest something.
Fluff wise I think divine soul is spot on (and there are a lot of backgrounds that fit and fill in for stuff you want your char to have).

Mechanic wise, I would try out an assassin 3/ hexblade 17 (and I would refluff hexblade as divine soul).
The reason for this (ie for the assassin levels), is because I am not a fun of relying on crits to make good use of my burst damage.

Of course, neither of these builds is a gish (well, technically they might be, so from now on whenever I say gish, what I mean is frontliner; the rogue/hexblade can play as a skirmisher often, if you don't mind taking risks).

I do not think you can make a good frontliner with a mix of hexblade and sorcerer, cause such a mc combo has too many weak points for it to stand in melee and take the heat. The best way I can see one trying to achieve this (without any further multiclassing), would be to start as hexblade 1, and then go all the way with sorcerer. One level in hexblade gives you a ton of useful stuff to not worry about delaying your sorcerer progression. But after that, every extra level in warlock has diminishing returns. And you need to progress quicly in sorcerer so that you wont delay any further advancing your spell selection and spell slot progression (which is the only real tool you have in your disposal that can help you approximate a frontliner) and without delaying getting feats -I would want to invest in both warcaster and resilient con, before testing my concentration on some very important spells I would want to rely upon-. Regarding concentration (always talking when I would want to be in the front lines), I would aim for spells that increase my effective AC, such as blur, greater invisibility, and protection from evil when it applies, all of which make good use of the shield spell (which I can use more times thanks to that short rest recharging 1st level spell slot of hexblade). Or, and this last one would be used only after I had taken both resilient con and warcaster, I would use stonskin in conjuction with armor of agathys, upcast with a high level slot (possibly picking up extent metamagic and use it on stoneskin, if my campaign had enough dungeon crawling; if I was expecting enemies with magical weapons/attacks, I would maybe use blade ward instead, possibly quickened if I really needed to use my action on something very important). Wis saves and con saves would have proficiency (through starting warlock and taking the resilient feat -which would help a bit with my starting stats), leaving only my dex saves (from the important ones) missing on proficiency, but hopefully a 14 in dex along with absorb elements would make up for missing proficiency in them (especially when damage effects are concerned). Of course, such a build misses terribly on battlefield control options, leaving you only with warcaster BB OA's (your OA reaction is valuable though, so use it with shield with caution, ie keep an eye on the battlefield and see if there are adjacent enemies that would profit a lot from moving, ie it involves some guessing the DM's tactics on your part). Still, very soft control. And still, a build that is much better served if it played like a normal sorcerer (using concentration for buffing/debuffing/control) with an extra touch of durability via that first level in warlock (or a charisma version of the bladesinger if you wish).

Gishing aside, if we are talking about the classic sorlock (quickening EB's), I was never a fun of it either (though hexblade makes it more appealing cause its 1st level is very loaded). It has its merits, especially if you are playing in a group that is definitely missing some dpr, but overall, I think there are far more efficienct ways of using your sorcery points rather than spamming it for some extra damage. Of course, there is an argument that at higher levels that extra damage increases significantly, but so does the importance of spells. Still, as I said earlier, I would find it useful if dpr was an issue in a given group (because party tactics optimization is more important than character optimization).

Millface
2018-09-19, 03:37 PM
Fluff wise I think divine soul is spot on (and there are a lot of backgrounds that fit and fill in for stuff you want your char to have).

Mechanic wise, I would try out an assassin 3/ hexblade 17 (and I would refluff hexblade as divine soul).
The reason for this (ie for the assassin levels), is because I am not a fun of relying on crits to make good use of my burst damage.

Of course, neither of these builds is a gish (well, technically they might be, so from now on whenever I say gish, what I mean is frontliner; the rogue/hexblade can play as a skirmisher often, if you don't mind taking risks).

I do not think you can make a good frontliner with a mix of hexblade and sorcerer, cause such a mc combo has too many weak points for it to stand in melee and take the heat. The best way I can see one trying to achieve this (without any further multiclassing), would be to start as hexblade 1, and then go all the way with sorcerer. One level in hexblade gives you a ton of useful stuff to not worry about delaying your sorcerer progression. But after that, every extra level in warlock has diminishing returns. And you need to progress quicly in sorcerer so that you wont delay any further advancing your spell selection and spell slot progression (which is the only real tool you have in your disposal that can help you approximate a frontliner) and without delaying getting feats -I would want to invest in both warcaster and resilient con, before testing my concentration on some very important spells I would want to rely upon-. Regarding concentration (always talking when I would want to be in the front lines), I would aim for spells that increase my effective AC, such as blur, greater invisibility, and protection from evil when it applies, all of which make good use of the shield spell (which I can use more times thanks to that short rest recharging 1st level spell slot of hexblade). Or, and this last one would be used only after I had taken both resilient con and warcaster, I would use stonskin in conjuction with armor of agathys, upcast with a high level slot (possibly picking up extent metamagic and use it on stoneskin, if my campaign had enough dungeon crawling; if I was expecting enemies with magical weapons/attacks, I would maybe use blade ward instead, possibly quickened if I really needed to use my action on something very important). Wis saves and con saves would have proficiency (through starting warlock and taking the resilient feat -which would help a bit with my starting stats), leaving only my dex saves (from the important ones) missing on proficiency, but hopefully a 14 in dex along with absorb elements would make up for missing proficiency in them (especially when damage effects are concerned). Of course, such a build misses terribly on battlefield control options, leaving you only with warcaster BB OA's (your OA reaction is valuable though, so use it with shield with caution, ie keep an eye on the battlefield and see if there are adjacent enemies that would profit a lot from moving, ie it involves some guessing the DM's tactics on your part). Still, very soft control. And still, a build that is much better served if it played like a normal sorcerer (using concentration for buffing/debuffing/control) with an extra touch of durability via that first level in warlock (or a charisma version of the bladesinger if you wish).

Gishing aside, if we are talking about the classic sorlock (quickening EB's), I was never a fun of it either (though hexblade makes it more appealing cause its 1st level is very loaded). It has its merits, especially if you are playing in a group that is definitely missing some dpr, but overall, I think there are far more efficienct ways of using your sorcery points rather than spamming it for some extra damage. Of course, there is an argument that at higher levels that extra damage increases significantly, but so does the importance of spells. Still, as I said earlier, I would find it useful if dpr was an issue in a given group (because party tactics optimization is more important than character optimization).

It would have been better, mechanically, to go V. Human for Warcaster or Half Elf for Elven Accuracy, but the Aasimar fluff that's available just really called out to me in a way that I couldn't turn down.

For the record, I don't like relying on crits for my overall DPR either, which is why the character isn't going to be entirely DPR focused 90% of the time. He's a laid back buffer/turret or support tank until certain boss encounters where the monster or person I've been hunting in the name of Kelemvor shows his face that I switch it up.

Right now, my "all out" set up is Hexblades Curse/Spirit Guardians --> Spiritual Weapon/Radiant Consumption ---> Quicken EB or BB/Attack or EB on repeat while peppering in Hellish Rebuke if I get hit. I get + prof damage on Spiritual Weapon damage, Spirit Guardian Damage, Hellish Rebuke Damage, and each attack or BB every round, plus .5xlevel+level damage once per turn. The question I really need to answer for myself is whether or not I want or even need to be able to smite on top of all of this. The more I think about it the more it seems like I'm already a glowing ball of death when I pop all of my cooldowns. Smite might just be redundant, especially when those slots can be Armor of Agathys or Shield to keep me standing while I call down my radiance on whatever poor soul Kelemvor has marked to die today.

First round damage is 3d8 AoE+Prof, Second Round is 4d8+.5xLevel+Level+2xProf+Cha, every round thereafter is 4d8+4d10+.5xLevel+Level+6xProf+5xCha+ potential Hellish Rebuke for 2d10+Prof more. 3d8+.5xLevel of that damage is AoE. I hadn't really done all that up before, but now that I have I'm really not sure smiting is worth delaying my additional Sorcerer spell slots after all. I think Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5 seems to Nova just fine as it is. It adds up to something like 15 DPR round one, 30 round 2, and 60 for each subsequent round thereafter that I hold concentration.

samcifer
2018-09-19, 03:47 PM
It would have been better, mechanically, to go V. Human for Warcaster or Half Elf for Elven Accuracy, but the Aasimar fluff that's available just really called out to me in a way that I couldn't turn down.

For the record, I don't like relying on crits for my overall DPR either, which is why the character isn't going to be entirely DPR focused 90% of the time. He's a laid back buffer/turret or support tank until certain boss encounters where the monster or person I've been hunting in the name of Kelemvor shows his face that I switch it up.

Right now, my "all out" set up is Hexblades Curse/Spirit Guardians --> Spiritual Weapon/Radiant Consumption ---> Quicken EB or BB/Attack or EB on repeat while peppering in Hellish Rebuke if I get hit. I get + prof damage on Spiritual Weapon damage, Spirit Guardian Damage, Hellish Rebuke Damage, and each attack or BB every round, plus .5xlevel+level damage once per turn. The question I really need to answer for myself is whether or not I want or even need to be able to smite on top of all of this. The more I think about it the more it seems like I'm already a glowing ball of death when I pop all of my cooldowns. Smite might just be redundant, especially when those slots can be Armor of Agathys or Shield to keep me standing while I call down my radiance on whatever poor soul Kelemvor has marked to die today.

First round damage is 3d8 AoE+Prof, Second Round is 4d8+.5xLevel+Level+2xProf+Cha, every round thereafter is 4d8+4d10+.5xLevel+Level+6xProf+5xCha+ potential Hellish Rebuke for 2d10+Prof more. 3d8+.5xLevel of that damage is AoE. I hadn't really done all that up before, but now that I have I'm really not sure smiting is worth delaying my additional Sorcerer spell slots after all. I think Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5 seems to Nova just fine as it is. It adds up to something like 15 DPR round one, 30 round 2, and 60 for each subsequent round thereafter that I hold concentration.

Another melee-focused spell to consider is Elemental Weapon, which will require getting to Hexblade 5 or higher. It's a concentration spell, but adds extra damage if you want that kind of thing.

Corran
2018-09-19, 06:23 PM
It would have been better, mechanically, to go V. Human for Warcaster or Half Elf for Elven Accuracy, but the Aasimar fluff that's available just really called out to me in a way that I couldn't turn down.

For the record, I don't like relying on crits for my overall DPR either, which is why the character isn't going to be entirely DPR focused 90% of the time. He's a laid back buffer/turret or support tank until certain boss encounters where the monster or person I've been hunting in the name of Kelemvor shows his face that I switch it up.

Right now, my "all out" set up is Hexblades Curse/Spirit Guardians --> Spiritual Weapon/Radiant Consumption ---> Quicken EB or BB/Attack or EB on repeat while peppering in Hellish Rebuke if I get hit. I get + prof damage on Spiritual Weapon damage, Spirit Guardian Damage, Hellish Rebuke Damage, and each attack or BB every round, plus .5xlevel+level damage once per turn. The question I really need to answer for myself is whether or not I want or even need to be able to smite on top of all of this. The more I think about it the more it seems like I'm already a glowing ball of death when I pop all of my cooldowns. Smite might just be redundant, especially when those slots can be Armor of Agathys or Shield to keep me standing while I call down my radiance on whatever poor soul Kelemvor has marked to die today.

First round damage is 3d8 AoE+Prof, Second Round is 4d8+.5xLevel+Level+2xProf+Cha, every round thereafter is 4d8+4d10+.5xLevel+Level+6xProf+5xCha+ potential Hellish Rebuke for 2d10+Prof more. 3d8+.5xLevel of that damage is AoE. I hadn't really done all that up before, but now that I have I'm really not sure smiting is worth delaying my additional Sorcerer spell slots after all. I think Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5 seems to Nova just fine as it is. It adds up to something like 15 DPR round one, 30 round 2, and 60 for each subsequent round thereafter that I hold concentration.
Apologies in advance for the disorganized response.

Radiant consumption is a bit tricky to use cause it's not party friendly, but I will leave that aside for now.
Now, with access to both radiant consumption and spirit guardians (a lot of extra points since you can quicken spirit guardians, so that you can activate both at round 1), it makes a lot of sense for you and for the rest of your party, to invest in some form of battlefield control. Cause the damage can stack up really nicely if you can catch a lot of enemies inside your burst area (10' for RC and 15' for SG). So, mention that to your teammates (ie that it would be good if one/some of them could invest in spells like web, stinking cloud, etc), and now lets see if there is anything your character can do about that. Naturally, since concentration is being used for SG when your AoE burst is at its highest, these ways must be concentration-free (also, because SG is more reliable cause RC is 1/day). First thing that comes to mind, is warcaster +BB, so that you can hurt a lot the (''slowed'', cause of SG) enemies that try to flee from your AoE. You also need the concentration boost, and the ability to circumvent the S component requirement since you will be S&B'ing, so warcaster is a must, and I would say to aim for getting it asap.
Now, another concentration-free way to ensure some battlefield control, could be animate dead (armored grappler zombies). This can be very powerful if you intend on making the most of your RC + SG AoE, but I am not sure if you could justify it on a Kelelmvor devotee. Perhaps you can? Just mentioning it.
There are probably more ways ensuring control so you can build nicely around your AoE damage, so keep an eye out, cause these are some very good (IMO) tactics against a mob if you can find a way to restrict enemy movement.

The extra damage (on weapon and spell attacks) from radiant damage, plays well with spiritual weapon. Cause you can activate both at round 1, and spiritual weapon gives you a chance at inflicting those extra damage from round 1 (also, an extra chance every round thereafter, and assuming you don't get a 2nd attack from somewhere, this is important if you only get one attack per turn; and this way you don't have to burn sp for quickening cantrips; spiritual weapon will do less damage, but it's probably a lot more cost efficient). That said, radiant consumption will be better used against mobs than against a big bad, but keep this opening round (ie radiant consumption + spiritual hammer) in mind for when you are up against a big bad that has also mobs. Though that means you are not casting a concentration spell at round 1, which is a big drawback... hmmm, probably there is more synergy in paper with this combo, not sure).

Getting the ability to smite (through the invocation at level 3) is an important ability. Having the ability to go nova against a single target gives you a new tactical approach, and when up against certain big bads (legendary resistances), there are few good alternatives to this (maybe a good buff spell could be an alternative). That said, you make a good point by asking if it will eat on the spell slots that you would like to use with AoA. I don't think this would be much of a problem. What worries me more, is that if you get eldritch smite, then not getting the extra attack might be a problem against high AC bosses. And if you are to advance that much in warlock, you delay significantly higher level sorcerer spells for little gain (there is no other big feature that would tempt me to advance that much in warlock, and it seems to me as a big investment for only becoming better at novaing). But... if you intend to play as a frontliner, then it might be worth it (saying 'might', cause there might be good high level cleric spells for a gish). I would probably stick with only one level in warlock, but if I were to take more levels, I wouldn't stop at 2, I would definitely take a 3rd level in warlock. But more? I dunno. About level progression, I have no idea, other than I would grab warcaster early (possibly sorcerer 5 too, for SG, if I wanted to base my anti-mob tactics around it).

ps: I fear that with SG (and possibly with RC), you might be a bit too squishy to handle the aggro you would draw (and if RC eats into your AoA temp hp, well, that's very very bad too). It would significantly help if someone could cast warding bond whenever you want to go blazing in the middle of the enemies. Also, with so many cantrips, I would take blade ward. With AoA hit points on, it is probably a very good option to consider with your action when you use the aforementioned anti-mob tactics (and it lets you keep your bonus action open for SW, and your reaction for BB OA's).

Millface
2018-09-20, 07:52 AM
Apologies in advance for the disorganized response.

Radiant consumption is a bit tricky to use cause it's not party friendly, but I will leave that aside for now.
Now, with access to both radiant consumption and spirit guardians (a lot of extra points since you can quicken spirit guardians, so that you can activate both at round 1), it makes a lot of sense for you and for the rest of your party, to invest in some form of battlefield control. Cause the damage can stack up really nicely if you can catch a lot of enemies inside your burst area (10' for RC and 15' for SG). So, mention that to your teammates (ie that it would be good if one/some of them could invest in spells like web, stinking cloud, etc), and now lets see if there is anything your character can do about that. Naturally, since concentration is being used for SG when your AoE burst is at its highest, these ways must be concentration-free (also, because SG is more reliable cause RC is 1/day). First thing that comes to mind, is warcaster +BB, so that you can hurt a lot the (''slowed'', cause of SG) enemies that try to flee from your AoE. You also need the concentration boost, and the ability to circumvent the S component requirement since you will be S&B'ing, so warcaster is a must, and I would say to aim for getting it asap.
Now, another concentration-free way to ensure some battlefield control, could be animate dead (armored grappler zombies). This can be very powerful if you intend on making the most of your RC + SG AoE, but I am not sure if you could justify it on a Kelelmvor devotee. Perhaps you can? Just mentioning it.
There are probably more ways ensuring control so you can build nicely around your AoE damage, so keep an eye out, cause these are some very good (IMO) tactics against a mob if you can find a way to restrict enemy movement.

The extra damage (on weapon and spell attacks) from radiant damage, plays well with spiritual weapon. Cause you can activate both at round 1, and spiritual weapon gives you a chance at inflicting those extra damage from round 1 (also, an extra chance every round thereafter, and assuming you don't get a 2nd attack from somewhere, this is important if you only get one attack per turn; and this way you don't have to burn sp for quickening cantrips; spiritual weapon will do less damage, but it's probably a lot more cost efficient). That said, radiant consumption will be better used against mobs than against a big bad, but keep this opening round (ie radiant consumption + spiritual hammer) in mind for when you are up against a big bad that has also mobs. Though that means you are not casting a concentration spell at round 1, which is a big drawback... hmmm, probably there is more synergy in paper with this combo, not sure).

Getting the ability to smite (through the invocation at level 3) is an important ability. Having the ability to go nova against a single target gives you a new tactical approach, and when up against certain big bads (legendary resistances), there are few good alternatives to this (maybe a good buff spell could be an alternative). That said, you make a good point by asking if it will eat on the spell slots that you would like to use with AoA. I don't think this would be much of a problem. What worries me more, is that if you get eldritch smite, then not getting the extra attack might be a problem against high AC bosses. And if you are to advance that much in warlock, you delay significantly higher level sorcerer spells for little gain (there is no other big feature that would tempt me to advance that much in warlock, and it seems to me as a big investment for only becoming better at novaing). But... if you intend to play as a frontliner, then it might be worth it (saying 'might', cause there might be good high level cleric spells for a gish). I would probably stick with only one level in warlock, but if I were to take more levels, I wouldn't stop at 2, I would definitely take a 3rd level in warlock. But more? I dunno. About level progression, I have no idea, other than I would grab warcaster early (possibly sorcerer 5 too, for SG, if I wanted to base my anti-mob tactics around it).

ps: I fear that with SG (and possibly with RC), you might be a bit too squishy to handle the aggro you would draw (and if RC eats into your AoA temp hp, well, that's very very bad too). It would significantly help if someone could cast warding bond whenever you want to go blazing in the middle of the enemies. Also, with so many cantrips, I would take blade ward. With AoA hit points on, it is probably a very good option to consider with your action when you use the aforementioned anti-mob tactics (and it lets you keep your bonus action open for SW, and your reaction for BB OA's).

Lots of awesome info to respond to, so let's get started!

First, I know RC is a little hard to use, and that at level 7 when my burst really comes online it'll deal 4 damage (not insignificant) per round to any other melee allies I have. Luckily, this group discusses our builds a bit before we finalize, so all but our stoutest fighter has solid ranged options to use, and they'll know to stay back when I go super-nova. I'll have a ton of support when I do, this party knows what I'm about and also knows that against the toughest encounters the plan is to send me in like a tactical nuke.

As far as squishiness and Warcaster go... Warcaster will have to come online at level 9, that first ASI is needed to get me to 18 CHA. At level 8 at least I can take improved pact weapon so that my longsword becomes my arcane focus, which means I can do (S) components while holding it. At 7, I'll have 6 first level spell slots, 4 second, and 2 third. In the nova situation I don't need my 1st level slots for anything other than Hellish Rebuke or Shield, and until I get warcaster I have no issue shielding 6 turns in a row to keep myself standing and dishing out damage.

I do take RC damage, but Aasimar are resistant to radiant, so only 2 damage/round. For that 2 damage I gain 4 DPR/Enemy within 10' and +7 flat DPR if one of my many damage sources rolls damage. A passive ability with no concentration that adds +11 DPR at minimum is quite strong. We would also have to consider lost opportunity from me keeping my party at range, but we have a Storm Cleric, Wizard, and two rogues who can stay at range or for the rogues move in, sneak attack, and disengage. They start 15' away and end 15' away, no sacrifice. If enemies leave my area for the back line the cleric will try to Thunderwave them back. The last party member, a fighter, will be in with me and just facetank the 4 damage per round while eventually taking sentinel to keep things where we are instead of running away from us.

The BB and battlefield control advice is very good, and once the build hits 5/5 being able to Quicken BB, then BB a second target or if there's just one attack twice gives me alot of melee attacks to fish for that sweet 8d8 smite crit to add on top. I'll have to talk to our Wizard and see what kind of control he can bust out when I go nova. He already plans to have his familiar help me exclusively when I pop off, he has the owl so other than AoE damage aimed at him this should be up fairly often and giving me advantage on top of everything else.

I love the idea, mechanically, of animate dead as a form of grapple control, I'd never thought of that. Unfortunately RP wise that's against my religion. Kelemvor loathes undead, they go against the natural order of life and death and it's part of my divine edict to put them to rest whenever I find them. This also means that I'm probably capped at level 5 Hexblade, as I wouldn't be able to use the specter either, but that's ok. 5 levels gets me 3rd level spells, Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon, Warcaster at 4, and once I make the melee switch I swap Agonizing Blast for Thirsting Blade.

AoA is only going to be used if and only if the monsters I'm fighting hit for <13 Damage and only hit from melee or it's an absolute emergency and the 15 HP could keep me up when I'd otherwise go down. It needs to deal it's damage twice through pretty much all levels of upcasting to be worth the cast at all. 30 damage and 15 temp HP for a 3rd level slot is worth it, 15 damage is not. Very situational, but a trick I'm happy to have in my bag.

The character certainly shifts gears a few times as it levels, but Hexblade 2 ---> Sorcerer 5 ---> Hexblade 5 feels like it has ways to be strong and valuable as it levels to what the character ultimately wants to be. The biggest downside is no ASI until 6, but any variation that allows that sooner gimps other areas too much, so I'll just have to eat that disadvantage.

Corran
2018-09-20, 05:10 PM
Some criticism (don't mean to be a jerk, just pointing out stuff that don't hit me well or stuff I think you might want to think about twice)

Regarding AoA and enemy's dpr (<13).
I think you are omitting a factor in your thinking process. That factor is damage prevention. When something hits hard, you want to bring it down faster, and obviously you need to stay alive too. So AoA offers you that. Is it good theoritically to use AoA (without backing it up) against heavy hitting enemies? Probably not. But practically -and this is the point-, you have to compare it with what other tactical options you have available. And to make a full comparison, you have to take into account both the increased survivability and the damage prevention due to bringing the high hitting foe down more quickly. IMO, AoA and fast slot progression (achieved best by a hex1/sorcX) is one of the biggest selling points of a sorlock gish. Far from an all winning tactic (as it is very vulnerable to ranged damage), but I can't see many better options. Of course, when you want to use this spell (and figuring out when beforehand is key), you cast it with your highest level spell slot and you find some way to back it up (stoneskin, blade ward, warding bond from an ally, etc). It can be a very efficient way to deal with certain heavy hitting opponents (prime candidates, anyone with melee multiattack, eg fire giant).

Regarding concentration.
I know I am probably becoming tiresome, but if you don't prioritize boosting your concentration checks, you wont be able to gish. Nothing with concentration will fly when you are in melee combat (certainly not spirit guardians, which IME usually tends to draw attention). If you don't plan for a solid concentration check, I am guessing you will end up being an EB turret, going into melee and into eldritch smite mode when you are backed up into a corner. Which is totally fine, and if that is your aim, then 1-3 warlock levels are more than enough (you really don't need to go up to 5). But if you want to be able to be a gish, and to use stuff like your SG/RC AoE tactics, then you definitely absolutely need to prioritize boosting your concentration. This is more important than taking CHA bumps. Far more important. Maintaining a powerful concentration effect while at the same time tanking some damage, is a very powerful (cause it allows 1 character to cover more roles in your party), yet very demanding combnation. The price is that you have to take feats that boost concentration (which also happen to give you other benefits as well, such as BB OA's, con save proficiency and a small stat boost; con save prof is actually a very important benefit). Say you only go for warcaster, and you skip resilient con. With a con score of 16, and advantage from warcaster, the chance to maintain concentration after consecutive hits (assuming a DC 10 always), goes like this: 91%, 83%, 75%, 69%, 62%, etc. That means, for example, that being hit 3 times in a given encounter (always assuming being hit for less than 22 damage, for a DC 10), the chance of having kept concentration at this point is 75%. That very roughly translates to that in 3 out of 4 encounters, you will lose concentration after you take the 3rd hit (I may be botching this a bit, a bit too tired to think clearly. But the odds are bad. First you secure your concentration checks, then you do everything else. Else there is little value in planning for a build that plays in melee.

ps: I know that stating as sorcerer for the con save proficiency might start seeming like a shortcut now. It's really not. Do not trade wisdom save proficiency. Almost every optimized melee build pays a feat to grab it, and since you have the option, it's best to start with it and grab resilient con instead of resilient wis, as the con stat boost is more important than the wis stat boost for you.