Live Action Avatar: Take Two

[Dragonexx]

https://variety.com/2018/tv/news/avatar-the-last-airbender-live-action-series-netflix-1202946788/

So, apparently, this is now happening. Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic. The Avatar franchise always deserved something like this, so I hope it turns out well.

Thoughts?

[Morty]

I don't see much of a point, honestly. Is there anything in this franchise that would work better in live action than a cartoon? It sounds like they have some ideas, though. So maybe there are things they didn't get to do the first time around that they'll try now.

[Kitten Champion]

Eh... I don't know how I feel about that.

On the one hand, a Netflix series is probably the best format to do this thing.

On the other, I kinda feel like it's a thing that doesn't need to be done. You can say the franchise deserves this, and sure, it's material popular and deep enough to warrant the money they'll spend on it, but it already had a series. That it was animated didn't make it less effective and having live action actors won't make it more serious, respected, or real.

Sort of the same issue I have with the Disney live action remakes for their major works. Sure, they're capably done in terms of money, actors, and effort but the argument for "this should be live action" hasn't really worked for me.

Then again, the movie was such a colossal mess of poor and confusing decisions, poor acting, really weak choreography that was poorly shot, and a fairly lengthy narrative chopped to death that having a live action series to point to is somewhat justified just on the principle that it deserved better than that.

[Kato]

I think the best I can say about this is it might give a chance to a few non-white actors. But,... most will be child actors... so... I'm not really looking forward to it. I don't see the need, but hey, if it sucks, we don't have to watch it.

[Legato Endless]

Is Netflix gonna invest enough capital to really make this pop? You could slum with standard particle streams for the bending, but making it look natural is a bit beyond what I've seen the effects used in the Marvel Netflix, Lost in Space, etc. And that's a pittance compared to making Appa and the rest of the wildlife work.

As for an adaptation, I'm neutral till I hear what's unique about this one. Stories get retold all the time. If there's a new thematic angle they're taking, there's no reason this couldn't be good. If it's just the original adapted to flesh and blood without any big alterations, there's not much to hook me.

Just do some things differently, without doing anything obviously awful. Like changing name pronunciation or adding charge times to the fights for no sensible reason. That's not hard, right?

[Zevox]

Eh... I don't know how I feel about that.

On the one hand, a Netflix series is probably the best format to do this thing.

On the other, I kinda feel like it's a thing that doesn't need to be done. You can say the franchise deserves this, and sure, it's material popular and deep enough to warrant the money they'll spend on it, but it already had a series. That it was animated didn't make it less effective and having live action actors won't make it more serious, respected, or real.
Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at too. On the one hand, I love Avatar and certainly won't say no to more of it.

On the other, I just have to ask why? I mean, at least when it was being adapted into a movie, the different format meant the story would differ somewhat in that it would need to streamlined to just the important parts of the season, and being a film could bring it to the attention of an even wider audience than the original show. Obviously what we got failed hard at that and more, but still, you could see some reason to do it. But just remaking the show but in live action? What's the point? The show already exists, and I can't imagine what live action will bring to it that's better than the animation.

If this were going to be a new show in the same world, perhaps giving us the next Avatar after Korra, or some adventures that Aang or Korra had that weren't already covered in their respective series, I'd be all ready to jump on the hype train for it, if slightly surprised and confused by the decision to go live action instead of animated this time. But as-is, my net feeling here is... largely apathetic, honestly.

[Yes_Thieves_Can]

I'm on board. I've never really subscribed to the idea of the art that doesn't need to be done. Like... if it's bad, people won't watch it, and if it's good, we'll all understand suddenly why it was needed.

[Bastian Weaver]

Well I think it's going to be awesome. Thanks for sharing the news!
I knew these guys would do something cool sooner or later, instead of that boring Korra thing.

[t209]

On the one hand, Shyamalan.
On the other hand, the original creators endorsed it.
Though I am not sure if that version will be more graphic, like people being roasted alive or swords that actually cuts.

[Kato]

I'm on board. I've never really subscribed to the idea of the art that doesn't need to be done. Like... if it's bad, people won't watch it, and if it's good, we'll all understand suddenly why it was needed.
I agree but I'm not sure about any art being 'needed'. No matter how good it is, we'd still be fine without it.
But yes, if it's bad... Well, we'll all have to live through the week or so of people who watch it, hate it and complain everywhere about it, but that's not so bad.



I knew these guys would do something cool sooner or later, instead of that boring Korra thing.
Oh come on, Korra was fine. It wasn't Avatar but still.


On the one hand, Shyamalan.
On the other hand, the original creators endorsed it.
Though I am not sure if that version will be more graphic, like people being roasted alive or swords that actually cuts.
I... I don't think it will be. While I guess it will be somewhat aimed at the older fans, I'm sure we're still getting a kids show, not Game of Elements.

[khadgar567]

if you ask me between netflix series or brand new chapter with new avatar. I choose new avatar series maybe in third iteration of avatar we might get new bending styles to flex the real power for avatar verse.

[Bastian Weaver]

Oh come on, Korra was fine. It wasn't Avatar but still.



Good point. It was okay by itself.

[keybounce]

I just realized: I don't think I ever saw season 4 of Korra.

[Strigon]

I definitely want to see it done well. I'd also like very much to see more worldbuilding, if it were done right.
While the original series felt very real and consistent in its worldbuilding, it always seemed that they were just handing out random bits and pieces, and I never got any sense of if or how they were connected. If the new series manages to flesh that out, and do it well, I'll be quite happy.

On the other hand, what made Avatar enjoyable was that every aspect of it was well thought-through. All the characters were deep, all the lore was consistent, and the stakes were raised at just the right pace. We saw the characters grow in both power and maturity, with appropriate setbacks along the way - again, both in terms of power and maturity.
Which means that, if they fail at even one facet of this - if they make Iroh a bumbling uncle, or take out his carefree attitude just to make him seem more awesome, for example - it'll be a huge disappointment.

Avatar was a carefully constructed - dare I say it? Masterpiece. Any change, no matter how small, will probably be a negative one. Not because the show was perfect - I don't believe it was - but because I don't trust anyone to properly identify those imperfections.


But, let's be honest, what I'm really expecting is an entire series based on Book 3, Chapter 17.

[Morty]

If there's one thing that I'd like to see done differently in a new version, I guess it's the third season. It suffered from pacing problems, with the second half in particular being "let's just get to the finale so Aang can duke it out with the Fire Lord". But I'm not sure if it's worth a new show.

[Bastian Weaver]

If there's one thing that I'd like to see done differently in a new version, I guess it's the third season. It suffered from pacing problems, with the second half in particular being "let's just get to the finale so Aang can duke it out with the Fire Lord".

Well, he had to duke it out with the Fire Lord! He was the only one who could!
... is it just that I love the whole cartoon and think that it was perfect in every way?..
Anyways, the episode with Aang's hallucinations was awesome.
Appa! Appa!
Momo! Momo!

[keybounce]

But, let's be honest, what I'm really expecting is an entire series based on Book 3, Chapter 17.

Hey, Toph liked her mis-characterazation.

But still, the ending was, as anyone in the fire nation would say, wonderful and Epic!

[Morty]

Well, he had to duke it out with the Fire Lord! He was the only one who could!


A technically true statement that completely misses the point of what I was saying.

[AdmiralCheez]

I've always been in the mindset that remakes should be reserved for things that had a good concept, but poor execution. This show was really well made the first time, so I don't see how remaking it would benefit it all that much. Unless they're trying to draw in a new audience, but what would they be changing to do that, and would it fundamentally be a different show?

If anything, they should remake Korra. That had some good ideas, but flawed execution. Like the problems you get when you only plan a story for one season, and have to wrap up all the plotlines before the end, thus making it feel rushed and leaving yourself with nothing to go on in later seasons.

[Zevox]

If there's one thing that I'd like to see done differently in a new version, I guess it's the third season. It suffered from pacing problems, with the second half in particular being "let's just get to the finale so Aang can duke it out with the Fire Lord". But I'm not sure if it's worth a new show.
That's actually a good point. A chance to redo Book 3 could be a good thing, considering how most of the good parts of it were crammed into the middle after they spent the first half mostly on filler. Though at this point they obviously wouldn't change the deus-ex-machina ending, sadly, so there's only so much that could be done...


If anything, they should remake Korra. That had some good ideas, but flawed execution. Like the problems you get when you only plan a story for one season, and have to wrap up all the plotlines before the end, thus making it feel rushed and leaving yourself with nothing to go on in later seasons.
Yeah, that's also a good option I'd say. The first two seasons in particular could use a lot of help, and while 3 and 4 were actually legitimately good, I wouldn't say no to a chance to see them improved if it happened.

[Aotrs Commander]

I probably ought to get around to watching season 3 and 4 of Korra at some point, given that I've got 'em on DVD. But the whole severing of the previous avatars and letting the spirit-world loose kind of sat badly with me.



Better than any time Amoron from season one was on screen, though, admittedly...



As to the Netflix series... I also am among the ones who thinks "well, fine - if well executed and tha's not a given *cough*Rebootguardians*couh*inhumans*cough*titans* cough* - but why?"

[Zevox]

I probably ought to get around to watching season 3 and 4 of Korra at some point, given that I've got 'em on DVD. But the whole severing of the previous avatars and letting the spirit-world loose kind of sat badly with me.
I would advise it. I too stopped watching the show after season 2, just no longer having any confidence that they'd make something good out of it. I only went back and wound up watching seasons 3 and 4 a little while after it had concluded, and was very surprised by the difference. Season 3 is leagues better than its predecessors in so many ways, including having the series' bar-none best villain. And while season 4 isn't quite as strong as 3 I think it's still quite good.

[khadgar567]

korra can littraly use a recycle as we have solid enough villain( zaheer) and the whole red lotus assasin order i think works kinda perfect overarching multi series villian organization worth couple of seasons per avatar to solve. as korra founds the conspiracy next earth avatar founds ozai and dark avatar are member of red lotus then kick in zaheers whole enlightened non monk airbender fluff as new spiritual bending masters. we have solid enough material to make two new avatars and the whole bound spirit to learn second element diffrent then your own can worth decent plotline for half of season.

[Morty]

That's actually a good point. A chance to redo Book 3 could be a good thing, considering how most of the good parts of it were crammed into the middle after they spent the first half mostly on filler. Though at this point they obviously wouldn't change the deus-ex-machina ending, sadly, so there's only so much that could be done...

Not the ending itself, but maybe they could build up to it a little so it doesn't come quite as much out of the left field.


Yeah, that's also a good option I'd say. The first two seasons in particular could use a lot of help, and while 3 and 4 were actually legitimately good, I wouldn't say no to a chance to see them improved if it happened.

If nothing else, the first two seasons would benefit a great deal from not being written as though the series ended with them.

[Legato Endless]

Not the ending itself, but maybe they could build up to it a little so it doesn't come quite as much out of the left field.


Ignoring bending, it'd be nice at least if Aang regaining the Avatar state was a result of characterization, choice, and theme. Something less dramatically dead than a random hit with a rock because oh crap, we need to reverse the power dynamic between him and Ozai.


If nothing else, the first two seasons would benefit a great deal from not being written as though the series ended with them.

Yeah, I'd want a third animated series if I could pick, but remaking Korra and tweaking all of the chaos of the first two seasons sounds more attractive than seeing Aang again.


But the whole severing of the previous avatars and letting the spirit-world loose kind of sat badly with me.

Seconded.

[georgie_leech]

I'm fine with this. Either it'll be better than the movie, or I'll be impressed they managed to make it worse than the movie. Win-win.

[solidork]

I was just thinking about how much I love Avatar and how there is basically no chance that I could get my father to watch the cartoon, so I'm appreciative.

[Celestia]

There are three reasons to do a remake.

1) The original had a good concept but sucked in execution. This does not really apply here. I do think that Avatar was a less-than-perfect show with plenty of flaws, but it was still more than good enough to pull ahead of them. Trying to do a remake to fix things would just be a largely pointless polishing that would have little effect.

2) The original was made so long ago that parts or all of it are no longer relatable or understandable to a modern audience. This is definitely not relevant. Avatar isn't that old of a show. There is nothing to modernize.

3) The creators feel like their perspective offers a new and fresh take on the story that can make it notably different from the original. This is possible bit unlikely since the new creators are the same as the old creators. It's, of course, possible that they could have new ideas after the past several years of doing other stuff, but it's more likely that they're just going to Lucas it and make it worse.

In the end, I see no reason why Avatar needs to be remade. There's simply nothing to justify it. I would much rather have an original series featuring a new story and possibly even new characters. Maybe it could be another sequel and feature the Earth Kingdom Avatar after Korra. I dunno, something.

Though, if they are determined to do a remake, I'd much rather they do Korra, actually. That show firmly falls into the first category of justification. In a lot of ways, I thought it was better than the original Avatar, but it was even more flawed, and some of those flaws were significant enough to detract from the whole. Korra needs a remake far more than Aang does.

[Celestia]

But the whole severing of the previous avatars and letting the spirit-world loose kind of sat badly with me.
In my opinion, that was one of the few things season two actually got right. It served two important functions.

First, severing the connection to the past lives eliminates Korra's safety net. She had access to thousands of lifetimes worth of knowledge, experience, and wisdom. It's like a cheat code for life, and it would have crippled her character development. Why try to overcome problems, yourself, when you can just look up the answers? Either that, or it would have caused plot incongruity when she doesn't ask her previous incarnations for everything even though she could. Getting rid of that means that she is truly on her own and has to figure everything out on her own. It ramps up the danger and allows her to be the active character of her story.

Second, the event, itself, is wonderful development. So often in shows, especially in kids' shows, consequences are never permanent. Any failure or screw up or injury, no matter how severe, is always undone by the end. It leaves the story with a lack of weight, like nothing that happenedc in it actually mattered. This, however, was never undone. It was a scar that stayed with her for the entire story, presumably her entire life, and presumably the lives of her successors. Her failure destroyed her connection to her past lives for good, and no amount of plot convenience will ever bring them back. It's a story with a real consequence, and that's marvelous.

[Morty]

Ignoring bending, it'd be nice at least if Aang regaining the Avatar state was a result of characterization, choice, and theme. Something less dramatically dead than a random hit with a rock because oh crap, we need to reverse the power dynamic between him and Ozai.

Ugh, yes. People have argued about the energybending thing a lot and it's probably not an argument we want to have again. But there's just no excuse for the Avatar State to be unlocked by a rock. Not even a special rock, just a sharp one that happened to hit Aang's back in the right place at the right time.


In my opinion, that was one of the few things season two actually got right. It served two important functions.

First, severing the connection to the past lives eliminates Korra's safety net. She had access to thousands of lifetimes worth of knowledge, experience, and wisdom. It's like a cheat code for life, and it would have crippled her character development. Why try to overcome problems, yourself, when you can just look up the answers? Either that, or it would have caused plot incongruity when she doesn't ask her previous incarnations for everything even though she could. Getting rid of that means that she is truly on her own and has to figure everything out on her own. It ramps up the danger and allows her to be the active character of her story.

Second, the event, itself, is wonderful development. So often in shows, especially in kids' shows, consequences are never permanent. Any failure or screw up or injury, no matter how severe, is always undone by the end. It leaves the story with a lack of weight, like nothing that happenedc in it actually mattered. This, however, was never undone. It was a scar that stayed with her for the entire story, presumably her entire life, and presumably the lives of her successors. Her failure destroyed her connection to her past lives for good, and no amount of plot convenience will ever bring them back. It's a story with a real consequence, and that's marvelous.

This is probably the best example of the "good idea, bad execution" principle, maybe even more so than the entirety of the first season. Keeping the portal open was thematically strong and gave Korra some much-needed agency, since the first season's finale had given her none. But the lack of build-up or any kind of discussion about how and why it might benefit anyone made it look pretty bad.

[Aotrs Commander]

This is probably the best example of the "good idea, bad execution" principle, maybe even more so than the entirety of the first season. Keeping the portal open was thematically strong and gave Korra some much-needed agency, since the first season's finale had given her none. But the lack of build-up or any kind of discussion about how and why it might benefit anyone made it look pretty bad.

If they had done that and not broekn the Avatar state, I would have been more inclined to give them a bye.

But I was, at that point, already sufficiently annoyed that I wasn't prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.



As to the avatar state chain breaking thing, I have a whole rant incoming about that, but as I have to go meditate early for my convention tomorrow, I cannot leave it my usual requiste fallow time to edit the language to what I consider the appropriately civil level.

(Hint kids: if something on the internet annoys you, do type up your furious rant, but don't post it; go away and come back an hour of few later when you have cooled down and nine times out of ten, you will be able to make the point far less vociferously (and thus avoid being rude or obnoxious1) or even don't feel you need to post if after all.

You can have that "cheat code for life" and access to that bit of access to thousands of lifetimes worth of knowledge, experience, and wisdom for nowt...)



1Well, in my case, as much as I am never not obnoxious just by existing, anyway...

[Celestia]

This is probably the best example of the "good idea, bad execution" principle, maybe even more so than the entirety of the first season. Keeping the portal open was thematically strong and gave Korra some much-needed agency, since the first season's finale had given her none. But the lack of build-up or any kind of discussion about how and why it might benefit anyone made it look pretty bad.
True. Season two had a lot of problems with it due to the rushed production. That's why I'd be more accepting of a Korra remake than an Avatar one. The former can be made meaningfully better.

[Algeh]

I also would have liked Korra better if they'd not broken the Avatar state, because I feel like it took away a lot of the most interesting things about being the Avatar in terms of character development possibilities and what made it more interesting as a power set than just "this is the special person who can punch with FOUR kinds of elemental specialness rather than just ONE kind of elemental specialness. That makes it their job to fix everything!"

I mean, why would being good at using more kinds of elements than other people be a reason for people to see you as a potential leader rather than a potential weapon? That the Avatar also had access to all of this accumulated wisdom made the role much more complex in terms of what the world might reasonably expect from the Avatar. It also sets up the possibilities of stories where consequences past Avatar actions are something that the present Avatar feels more directly responsible for dealing with (which happened to Aang several times, and which I would have liked to see more stories about, particularly times when the past Avatar was wrong and screwed things up in some way, leaving a heavy burden for a little kid in terms of trying to put things right-er).

The past memories also pull the responsibilities of the Avatar in a lot of very different ways, which makes for interesting tensions between which duties are most important. The Avatar would be the only person who could do certain kinds of historical research, but is helping a group of scholars research the details of, say, a 500-year-old plague that rumors say may return more urgent than fighting some person who is running around being evil right now? What about helping the new volunteer air nation folk recover more details of "their" lost culture without the ticking time bomb of a potential plague and a much vaguer end point? The pull of the role as a repository of those memories, the role as the fixer of all broken stuff, and the fact that it's still held by an actual human teenager who is not any better at dealing with being a teenager just because a bunch of bonus adults are also shouting advice in her would have made for some really interesting stories that they closed themselves off from.

[Aotrs Commander]

I also would have liked Korra better if they'd not broken the Avatar state, because I feel like it took away a lot of the most interesting things about being the Avatar in terms of character development possibilities and what made it more interesting as a power set than just "this is the special person who can punch with FOUR kinds of elemental specialness rather than just ONE kind of elemental specialness. That makes it their job to fix everything!"

I mean, why would being good at using more kinds of elements than other people be a reason for people to see you as a potential leader rather than a potential weapon? That the Avatar also had access to all of this accumulated wisdom made the role much more complex in terms of what the world might reasonably expect from the Avatar. It also sets up the possibilities of stories where consequences past Avatar actions are something that the present Avatar feels more directly responsible for dealing with (which happened to Aang several times, and which I would have liked to see more stories about, particularly times when the past Avatar was wrong and screwed things up in some way, leaving a heavy burden for a little kid in terms of trying to put things right-er).

The past memories also pull the responsibilities of the Avatar in a lot of very different ways, which makes for interesting tensions between which duties are most important. The Avatar would be the only person who could do certain kinds of historical research, but is helping a group of scholars research the details of, say, a 500-year-old plague that rumors say may return more urgent than fighting some person who is running around being evil right now? What about helping the new volunteer air nation folk recover more details of "their" lost culture without the ticking time bomb of a potential plague and a much vaguer end point? The pull of the role as a repository of those memories, the role as the fixer of all broken stuff, and the fact that it's still held by an actual human teenager who is not any better at dealing with being a teenager just because a bunch of bonus adults are also shouting advice in her would have made for some really interesting stories that they closed themselves off from.

Exactly.



Having access to what is, essentially, Former Avatar Wikipedia is not a broken superpower that needs to be nerfed; nor is Wikipedia via your mobile phone (also pretty close to what Korra's access to the former avatars was, only less conveniant than that) a "cheat code for life." Nor is, like, phoning you old grandad/grandma up for advice.

If anything, access to that sort of information on tap makes Korra more relatable to the current generation of the Target Audience, a majority of whom DO have access to thousands - millions - of year's worth of experience and wisdom at their fingertips (at least as far as most technical things go - these days, if I have a technical problem, the first thing I do is google it...)

I defy the idea that "doing everything all by yourself" is remotely better (or somehow more entertaining to watch) than "going and asking someone for help."

[keybounce]

The Avatar wasn't just "I can punch in 4 different ways".

It was also "I can always choose the appropriate counter for your action" plus "my actions are stronger than 99.99% of the other benders".

The Fire Lord was Aang's equal for fire attacks, if not outright better. Aang had the flexibility of the other 3 forms at equal power. And despite that, his lack of "willing to kill" hampered him. He would not even slice a melon during training a few episodes earlier.

It wasn't until he found a different way to fight that did not result in killing that he tried -- and even then, it turned out that Fire Lord Oza was better at that new form than Aang was -- but not better than the Avatar State.

[Anonymouswizard]

Watching Legend of Aang for the first time (why is everybody always talking about gay people in it? :smalltongue:) I'm very much agreeing with it not needing to be remade.

Would a remake be interesting to see? Maybe, but only if they changed some core assumptions or world elements to result in a different story, not the same story again. What would Avatar have been like if Zuko had never been banished and as such is absent from the first half of Book 1? Actually tell a different story.

Plus, just give healing to fire. They don't have to take it away from water, but there's something more unsettling about fire being both destruction and healing.

[The Glyphstone]

Plus, just give healing to fire. They don't have to take it away from water, but there's something more unsettling about fire being both destruction and healing.

It wouldn't be hard to justify, either. Fire is very traditionally a tool/force of purification - generally by burning out/destroying the impurities, but a sort of harsh 'pain makes you stronger' sort of healing power would both make Firebenders more threatening and unnerving.

[georgie_leech]

It wouldn't be hard to justify, either. Fire is very traditionally a tool/force of purification - generally by burning out/destroying the impurities, but a sort of harsh 'pain makes you stronger' sort of healing power would both make Firebenders more threatening and unnerving.

It could be that no one has figured it out yet. Like, Metal Bending was always possible, but it wasn't until Toph came along and figured out how to apply the proper skills to make it work. It could be that it hasn't happened for healing fire yet.

Besides, the obvious uses of killing infection and defibrillators are just past the time the shows were set in. Maybe we'll get a third season with modernish medicine and the Avatar becomes the best doctor ever or something. :smallcool:

[Celestia]

It wouldn't be hard to justify, either. Fire is very traditionally a tool/force of purification - generally by burning out/destroying the impurities, but a sort of harsh 'pain makes you stronger' sort of healing power would both make Firebenders more threatening and unnerving.
Not only that, but in-lore, the basis for firebending is life energy. Thus, fire healing actually makes more technical sense than water healing. (Though water healing does have the stronger real-world mythological connection.)

[Lethologica]

There are three reasons to do a remake.

1) The original had a good concept but sucked in execution. This does not really apply here. I do think that Avatar was a less-than-perfect show with plenty of flaws, but it was still more than good enough to pull ahead of them. Trying to do a remake to fix things would just be a largely pointless polishing that would have little effect.

2) The original was made so long ago that parts or all of it are no longer relatable or understandable to a modern audience. This is definitely not relevant. Avatar isn't that old of a show. There is nothing to modernize.

3) The creators feel like their perspective offers a new and fresh take on the story that can make it notably different from the original. This is possible bit unlikely since the new creators are the same as the old creators. It's, of course, possible that they could have new ideas after the past several years of doing other stuff, but it's more likely that they're just going to Lucas it and make it worse.

In the end, I see no reason why Avatar needs to be remade. There's simply nothing to justify it. I would much rather have an original series featuring a new story and possibly even new characters. Maybe it could be another sequel and feature the Earth Kingdom Avatar after Korra. I dunno, something.

Though, if they are determined to do a remake, I'd much rather they do Korra, actually. That show firmly falls into the first category of justification. In a lot of ways, I thought it was better than the original Avatar, but it was even more flawed, and some of those flaws were significant enough to detract from the whole. Korra needs a remake far more than Aang does.
4) Draw in a new target audience. Live action, and aged up a bit, and following the maturation of its original fanbase (who can evangelize the product if they like it)...I would guess that "Avatar I can show my father" is exactly the point of this remake, just like it probably was with the first live action adaptation, except the original creators decided not to risk another third party botch job this time.

[Celestia]

4) Draw in a new target audience. Live action, and aged up a bit, and following the maturation of its original fanbase (who can evangelize the product if they like it)...I would guess that "Avatar I can show my father" is exactly the point of this remake, just like it probably was with the first live action adaptation, except the original creators decided not to risk another third party botch job this time.
That is not at all justification for a remake. If all you're trying to do is appeal to a new target audience, you could, and probably should, make a new show. A remake won't help and will, in all likelihood, turn out terrible. Either you try to maintain the integrity of the original show to keep the old fans happy (who will probably still hate it, anyways) and completely abandon your mission of bringing in a new audience, or you change so much about the show that you alienate your previous fan base while still failing to bring in new ones because the name is too heavily associated with the previous audience. No matter what, if you try to remake a show just to bring in a new audience, you'll probably end up losing both.

[Lethologica]

Would it help if I used the word 'adaptation' instead? Because a lot of the media I consume is adapted around from comics to cartoons to live action to video games and back so often that my threshold for what is a 'justification' for doing so is pretty low.

[Seppl]

aged up a bitI know you are talking about maturity of the story but I noticed that nobody brought this up, yet: It is kind of important to the storyline that the characters, especially Aang himself, are young teens. Which brings in the dreaded child actors (or rather: teen actors). Especially if they go for an ethnically correct cast the pool of English speaking actors would be pretty shallow. Thus, they will either have to make due with what they can get, or age up the cast. Which would kind of weaken the main storyline. A 16 year old boy having doubts about his vast, unstoppable power is much less believable.

Probably another reason to redo Korra if it had to be a remake.

[Celestia]

I know you are talking about maturity of the story but I noticed that nobody brought this up, yet: It is kind of important to the storyline that the characters, especially Aang himself, are young teens. Which brings in the dreaded child actors (or rather: teen actors). Especially if they go for an ethnically correct cast the pool of English speaking actors would be pretty shallow. Thus, they will either have to make due with what they can get, or age up the cast. Which would kind of weaken the main storyline. A 16 year old boy having doubts about his vast, unstoppable power is much less believable.

Probably another reason to redo Korra if it had to be a remake.
Aang is actually only 12 in books 1 & 2 and is, thus, not even yet a teen. /fake smug accent

:smalltongue:

But anyways, I agree. Still, they could probably cast someone who's 14-16 with a baby face and get away with it, especially if they do cast a Tibetan actor. As uncomfortable as it is to admit, Western people tend to have troubles distinguishing the nuances in Asian faces. They could probably even cast a 25 year old if he's short enough, and most of us wouldn't even notice after a bit of makeup. I mean, they don't even need to cast a Tibetan, but that would likely cause PR issues if people decided to complain.

[georgie_leech]

Aang is actually only 12 in books 1 & 2 and is, thus, not even yet a teen. /fake smug accent

:smalltongue:

But anyways, I agree. Still, they could probably cast someone who's 14-16 with a baby face and get away with it, especially if they do cast a Tibetan actor. As uncomfortable as it is to admit, Western people tend to have troubles distinguishing the nuances in Asian faces. They could probably even cast a 25 year old if he's short enough, and most of us wouldn't even notice after a bit of makeup. I mean, they don't even need to cast a Tibetan, but that would likely cause PR issues if people decided to complain.

Glances uncomfortably at a certain movie

[cobaltstarfire]

When I saw the news I had two thoughts.

Whyyyyy?

And then that maybe there are some things they couldn't do that they want to try, or things they want to try to do better. I also question if they could do any better, what little I've read of the comics for example didn't really impress me.

I think I agree with most in the thread that trying to fix Korra would be a lot nicer than fiddling with the original series. I liked Korra overall, but to me it always felt like it suffered from a combination of being rushed/not being developed enough when it started, and having season lengths that didn't fit the story that wanted to be told very well even once it found its feet.

The take that in their press release thing about the movie gave me a nice giggle though.

[Chromascope3D]

Aang is actually only 12 in books 1 & 2 and is, thus, not even yet a teen. /fake smug accent

:smalltongue:

But anyways, I agree. Still, they could probably cast someone who's 14-16 with a baby face and get away with it, especially if they do cast a Tibetan actor. As uncomfortable as it is to admit, Western people tend to have troubles distinguishing the nuances in Asian faces. They could probably even cast a 25 year old if he's short enough, and most of us wouldn't even notice after a bit of makeup. I mean, they don't even need to cast a Tibetan, but that would likely cause PR issues if people decided to complain.

Unfortunately, it would be more controversial to cast an actual Tibetan, as Tibetans aren't allowed to be in movies thanks to the will of a certain unnamed global superpower. :smallfrown:

[Celestia]

Unfortunately, it would be more controversial to cast an actual Tibetan, as Tibetans aren't allowed to be in movies thanks to the will of a certain unnamed global superpower. :smallfrown:
Huh. I did not know that. Well, it's not a movie, anyways; it's a Netflix series.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I wouldn't mind seeing another Avatar series.

As a random guess, maybe they'll carefully plot out the whole series and remove all the filler episodes? Nobody likes filler episodes! That'll cut out maybe half of the original series. The bad half. We'll be left with only the good stuff!

On a more serious note, I really do suspect that the route taken may involve making the story a bit more narrative heavy and continuous, rather than feature a lot of semi-serialized adventures like the original series. Although I have absolutely no clue about whether this is the case, I suspect that having a success on their hands with Avatar:Airbender allowed the original creators to make the follow-up series with an approach they would have preferred to begin with.

I'll get into the Internet spirit though and form my opinion on the entire thing now based on the earliest news/rumors. I like the show! It's a shame that Toph was only introduced in the fourth episode, though. They really should've found a way to get her into the pilot. Actually, I probably will end up liking it, no matter how different it ends up being. I can't really imagine any potential changes (by the original creators) bothering me. Korra was wonderful.

[Anonymouswizard]

Not only that, but in-lore, the basis for firebending is life energy. Thus, fire healing actually makes more technical sense than water healing. (Though water healing does have the stronger real-world mythological connection.)

I think fire has enough real world purification and rebirth connotations to stake a strong claim.


As a side note, my first exposure to the series was the film, which I could see was terrible but also that had a lot of good behind it. While it took me the better part of a decade to go from seeing the film to actually watching the decent version, I can't bring myself to hate the film because it was my introduction to Avatar. Although looking back at it the main thing I actually liked about the film was the bending effects, especially the firebending.


I'm going to be significantly more optimistic for this if it turns out that is a new story, but if it is just The Last Airbender take three then the only potential good thing I can see is maybe bring allowed to actually kill off characters or have people be hit with swords.

[Morty]

I wouldn't expect them to alter the "mechanics" of bending, myself. They might do it, but I'll be surprised if they do. It would also alter Katara's storyline in several places if waterbending can't heal, and we don't know if they're going to change things to that degree.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It could work. A series would give enough time for the story to develop, there's less need to nail it just right like in a movie. Special effects today aren't really a problem, although there will probably still be some stretches of filler to keep costs down.

Will it add anything to the cartoon? I don't know. The simplicity of the whole thing was part of its strength. You never missed what wasn't there, at least not until The Legend of Korra rubbed your nose in it. It had a fairy tale or dream like quality that way. A live action series probably needs to look a lot more complete in order to feel that way. An episode consisting of say three characters and a weird boat in a desert often looks cheap and rushed in live action, while in the Avatar cartoon that could have been all that's needed. And on top of that don't forget the nostalgia goggles. It's not going to be easy to make this series any good. But at least there's less of a budget at risk than with a blockbuster movie.

[Clertar]

I have a feeling they might take a Game of Thrones approach with more time passing between season, showing the younger characters growing as the actors do. And if they eventually move on to a Legend of Korra live action series (which I think would work even better than an AtLA adaptation), they could have the actors appear in flashback cameos as slightly more adult versions (and also Aang as a spirit appearing to Korra).

[Lemmy]

Sounds like a completely pointless endeavor that willl add little or nothing to the franchise... And "it's live action now" is just the excuse they are using to convince people to watch said vastly inferior product.

[keybounce]

I wouldn't mind seeing another Avatar series.

As a random guess, maybe they'll carefully plot out the whole series and remove all the filler episodes? Nobody likes filler episodes! That'll cut out maybe half of the original series. The bad half. We'll be left with only the good stuff!

I must disagree. Imagine if Babylon 5 had no filler.

The first season, something like only 3 or 4 episodes were plot relevant. The second season, I think was only 6. The number of plot relevant episodes kept going up each season.

At least half of Babylon 5 was filler. Filler that served the purpose of fleshing out the world.

As another example, I actually liked the episodes of Naruto that did nothing to advance the combat, but just showed us life in the village. Good world building, fleshing out, etc., even if it does not advance the plot, still makes for a good series.

[Celestia]

I must disagree. Imagine if Babylon 5 had no filler.

The first season, something like only 3 or 4 episodes were plot relevant. The second season, I think was only 6. The number of plot relevant episodes kept going up each season.

At least half of Babylon 5 was filler. Filler that served the purpose of fleshing out the world.

As another example, I actually liked the episodes of Naruto that did nothing to advance the combat, but just showed us life in the village. Good world building, fleshing out, etc., even if it does not advance the plot, still makes for a good series.
A lot of people who complain about filler episodes seem to forget that some of the most important character development often comes from them.

[Legato Endless]

I think the divergence here is what one labels as filler. To me, an episode that develops or reveals a character or relationship significantly isn't filler, it's a one off or side story.

A pure filler episode doesn't do either of those things along with not touching on the main plot. That said, I agree that it's often useful to have episodes disconnected from the central arc precisely so we get those character studies.

[Algeh]

Having filler episodes also makes it somewhat more surprising when some things turn out to be non-filler later. If it's known that it's full speed ahead on the arc plot, then it's not surprising when the otherwise-pointless side story in episode #3 turns out to be about a character that comes back in episode #12 to do something important. If some things are just contained stories and others come back, it lets speculation breathe a bit and makes the story feel less predictable. Sure, only some of Babylon 5's Season 1 episodes were really important to the arc, but part of the fun was that we weren't entirely sure which at the time...

[Zevox]

Sounds like a completely pointless endeavor that willl add little or nothing to the franchise... And "it's live action now" is just the excuse they are using to convince people to watch said vastly inferior product.
"Vastly inferior product?" It's not even made yet. I mean, I completely agree that it's likely pointless, but making assumptions like that about the quality of something that doesn't even exist at the moment doesn't make any more sense than this remake itself.

[Anonymouswizard]

I must disagree. Imagine if Babylon 5 had no filler.

The first season, something like only 3 or 4 episodes were plot relevant. The second season, I think was only 6. The number of plot relevant episodes kept going up each season.

At least half of Babylon 5 was filler. Filler that served the purpose of fleshing out the world.

American shows have too much filler anyway. B5 would have been just as good, although leaner, on twelve episodes a season (:smallyuk: the word is series) with a less filled out world and potentially sightly more dense episodes. Do I want B5 to have had fewer episodes? No, because I find quite a few of the episodes not dedicated towards the primary plot are still setting up or developing character traits, but honestly that seems to be the rarity with filler episodes.

(Note that I had the opposite problem when watching nuWho, too much main plot, because in my experience Doctor Who was a bunch of stuff contained stories. Stuff contained serials, would you like a jelly baby, I'm rather fond of them.)

[GloatingSwine]

I wouldn't mind seeing another Avatar series.

As a random guess, maybe they'll carefully plot out the whole series and remove all the filler episodes? Nobody likes filler episodes! That'll cut out maybe half of the original series. The bad half. We'll be left with only the good stuff!


So they'll cut out The Great Divide then?

Avatar has basically no episodes that don't advance the plot or develop one of the characters in a significant and lasting way.

It doesn't have filler.

[Sinewmire]

Pretty much the only real episode I feel should be cut is The Great Divide (from the Ember island Players it would seem that the showrunners agree!) as even the "filler" episodes contain important charater development and world-building.

Is The Deserter important to the plot? No, we don't need additional reasons for Aang not to want to bend fire. Is it awesome? It certainly is! Jeong-jeong's rant about how fire is innately different to the other elements - a rock will not throw itself - and the fight against Admiral Xiao (a perfect demonstration of Aang winning with Air nomad philosophy). Even the Dance Party episode or The Painted Lady in season 3 shows the evil of the Firelord's regime, and that the fire nation people aren't evil, they're just people. That Aang needs to save the Fire Nation too.

I think Season 1, especially the first few episodes would benefit from re-working, but I too suspect the only way they can go with this "reimagining" is worse.

[Morty]

People overuse the word "filler". Such episodes can be better or worse, but they're needed to develop the cast's characterization and relationships. Book One of ATLA definitely was heavier on the "problem of the week" format, but I'm not sure if it's something that needs fixing. Though it probably will change one way or the other, since a Netflix series is different than a TV show.

[Lemmy]

"Vastly inferior product?" It's not even made yet. I mean, I completely agree that it's likely pointless, but making assumptions like that about the quality of something that doesn't even exist at the moment doesn't make any more sense than this remake itself.
Considering the quality of other live-action adaptations... Specially from Netflix... And how half-decent bending SFX in a live-action show would require a budget the series is unlikely to have. I think it's a very reasonable prediction.

They are not trying to make a good show. They are just trying to cash in on Avatar's name. It's just another terrible sequel/remake that became so common.

[GloatingSwine]

People overuse the word "filler". Such episodes can be better or worse, but they're needed to develop the cast's characterization and relationships. Book One of ATLA definitely was heavier on the "problem of the week" format, but I'm not sure if it's something that needs fixing. Though it probably will change one way or the other, since a Netflix series is different than a TV show.

I would suggest that not only are "problem of the week" episodes not something that need fixing, they are the principal reason why TLA was better than Korra.

Because they let the series have arcs and resolutions every week or two weeks as well as the season and half season long arcs. The characters have minor triumphs and losses along the way to the major resolution of the season, which combine to the final resolution of the series as a whole.

Because Korra had basically one throughline arc per character or group of characters there aren't the same arcs and resolutions as the season goes on, which meant that the overall structure largely resembled "Heroes lose for 10.5 episodes then win at the end".

[Aotrs Commander]

Because Korra had basically one throughline arc per character or group of characters there aren't the same arcs and resolutions as the season goes on, which meant that the overall structure largely resembled "Heroes lose for 10.5 episodes then win at the end".

That was absolutely one major problem with season one.

Amoron was written like they were trying to make him Thrawn, but without actually showing him Thrawning. For memory of my anger (because it legit made me angry at the writers for the arse-pull -I remember being furious more than I remember the actual events), the absolute final straw was when he magically just beat the Fire Nation navy or pur them out of commission because suddenly they had attack gliders or something daft like that. As I recall, they were just pulling stuff out of the blue, it seemed and it REALLY rankled me. SHOW your working, guys. (Which is why he's Amoron - that's how his name is spelt and pronounced, regardless of what he and more pertinently, writers think; he wasn't a character as far as I was concerned, he was a writer's macguffin. Never had the men behind the curtain been so transparent.)

[GloatingSwine]

That was absolutely one major problem with season one.

Amoron was written like they were trying to make him Thrawn, but without actually showing him Thrawning. For memory of my anger (because it legit made me angry at the writers for the arse-pull -I remember being furious more than I remember the actual events), the absolute final straw was when he magically just beat the Fire Nation navy or pur them out of commission because suddenly they had attack gliders or something daft like that. As I recall, they were just pulling stuff out of the blue, it seemed and it REALLY rankled me. SHOW your working, guys.

They did. Amon was working with the world's foremost inventor and technologist, Hiroshi Sato. That's why they had mecha and planes.

In retrospect Amon's main problem as a villain was basically "Isn't Zaheer". He's basically right about the way benders dominate society.

[Kitten Champion]

In retrospect, the first season of Legend of Korra should have been, essentially, Black Panther.

You have Amon as Killmonger, a radical militant revolutionary who's using advanced technology to propagate global upheaval against the status quo justified by centuries of unjust oppression, and Korra as T'Challa who intends on being a Good Avatar but has to reflect on the fundamental nature of that role and the society she's preserving in light of Amon's presence. The important points being that Amon would have a point and we get to see it dramatized in the work, and Korra learns something from the conflict that meaningfully changes her outlook on the world.

Because those are the two things that season lacked, and painfully so.

The veracity of Amon's claims are left ambiguous at best. At times suggesting he's just a demagogue using charisma, secret bending trickery, and empty rhetoric to ferment trouble for personal reasons and his arguments are specious populism. At other times, that yes, non-Benders are indeed oppressed and yadda-yadda-yadda things are better now that that season's ending, because that's how social change comes -- conveniently with the remaining screen time.

While Korra didn't really have to contemplate things beyond her own personal deal because her certitude in the status quo was never genuinely questioned by anything of substance. Comedic whiners and a villain with an obvious alternative agenda, it was more an issue for her that this scary boogieman would take away her Bending than whether her position was justified.

[Morty]

At the end of the day, there's no earthly way the storyline of Book One was going to work in 12 episodes. It may have helped if they hadn't had to write them as the whole series, but that would only have gone so far. I guess if we got a live-action remake with less suffocating constraints, we'd get to see if the writers actually had what it took to begin with. The reasons outlined above make me doubt that, but then, it's been a while, so maybe they've grown? Amon being a bender all alooooong would ruin everything one way or the other, so it depends on whether they'd stick to that.

[Celestia]

In retrospect, the first season of Legend of Korra should have been, essentially, Black Panther.

You have Amon as Killmonger, a radical militant revolutionary who's using advanced technology to propagate global upheaval against the status quo justified by centuries of unjust oppression, and Korra as T'Challa who intends on being a Good Avatar but has to reflect on the fundamental nature of that role and the society she's preserving in light of Amon's presence. The important points being that Amon would have a point and we get to see it dramatized in the work, and Korra learns something from the conflict that meaningfully changes her outlook on the world.

Because those are the two things that season lacked, and painfully so.

The veracity of Amon's claims are left ambiguous at best. At times suggesting he's just a demagogue using charisma, secret bending trickery, and empty rhetoric to ferment trouble for personal reasons and his arguments are specious populism. At other times, that yes, non-Benders are indeed oppressed and yadda-yadda-yadda things are better now that that season's ending, because that's how social change comes -- conveniently with the remaining screen time.

While Korra didn't really have to contemplate things beyond her own personal deal because her certitude in the status quo was never genuinely questioned by anything of substance. Comedic whiners and a villain with an obvious alternative agenda, it was more an issue for her that this scary boogieman would take away her Bending than whether her position was justified.
The main problem with the first (and second) season of Korra was Nickelodeon jerking them around. When they first started working on Korra, they were told that they'd get one season with 26 episodes. So, they wrote out the plot with that in mind. They made Amon a vague, background threat, intending to expand him later. They added two secondary villains to fill in the first half of the season. And they added in the pro-bending story which offered great character development but did nothing to advance the plot, knowing that they'd have time to wrap it up mid season before getting to the meat of the Amon story later. But then, about four or five episodes in, after all this had already been established, they got knocked down to twelve episodes, meaning that they had to quickly cut out more than half the story and condense everything else down. It messed up the pacing and left too many unanswered questions and too few fulfilling resolutions.

As for the second season, they weren't told that they were even getting one until after the first season had finished airing, meaning they were given a late start on writing it since Nickelodeon still expected it to come out on time. Though, season two did still have many problems not relating to the rushed production...

I only wonder how good Korra could have been without d***bag executive meddling.

[keybounce]

Season 1 with Amon could have been so much better as a children's story if the final showdown had been 2 parts (it was far too rushed for a single 22 minute segment).

Season 1 with Amon would have made a great *ADULT* story, if, when accused of being a Bender, Amon had said yes, revealed the truth about his injury, and then followed up with something like this:

"My father was one of the meanest, cruelest water Benders around. He not only taught me blood bending, he put me through it. He taught me that bending is an illness upon the world that must be removed. I fled; I left him.

While on my own, I came to the fire nation. I never showed anyone that I was a Bender; I did not use my bending, I considered it a mark of shame. The family that I was living with was attacked, exactly as I said.

At that time, we were all attacked, myself included. After I was attacked, I broke out in rage. I destroyed them all. And yes, I was scarred.

But the family that had adopted me was saved. And how did they repay me?

With fear.

I healed my scar. As I realized just how much they feared me over the next few months, I left. I realized that bending was a curse, even to me, a bender. And I swore to end Bending.

Look at how my brother, your councilman, has treated you. Treated you as criminals. Imposed curfews. Do you really think that trying to work within the system will solve things, when working within the system gives you this?

Look at what I have done. Chi blockers that anyone can use, to neutralize bending. Look at the steps I have taken against the Benders that would take your right of liberty away from you because they can. Because they have might and power, and you don't.

When I have a fight with the Benders that I have captured, it truly is a fair fight. I use my blood bending ability to read their moves; I do not control their actions. This is no different than what a skilled fighter can do with training. It simply happens to be a different skill, that I have trained, to be able to read someone's actions fast enough to react to them.

I cannot help the fact that I was born a bender. I have learned that bending is horrible and needs to be eliminated. And I have lived my life as an adult consistent with that.

I do not judge the avatar for being born the avatar. My question is, is she actually helping the people, or just enforcing the power of the ruling Benders?

I do not want to have a fight with the Avatar here. Too many people would be hurt. But now that everyone here knows the whole story, it is time to make your decision.

Avatar, take the Airbender's with you and leave. Tomorrow, we will have our showdown. And we will see which side the people are on -- my side, the side of someone who fights for ordinary people, or your side, the side of someone who fights for the Benders would take basic rights of liberty away.
"

[Morty]

The main problem with the first (and second) season of Korra was Nickelodeon jerking them around. When they first started working on Korra, they were told that they'd get one season with 26 episodes. So, they wrote out the plot with that in mind. They made Amon a vague, background threat, intending to expand him later. They added two secondary villains to fill in the first half of the season. And they added in the pro-bending story which offered great character development but did nothing to advance the plot, knowing that they'd have time to wrap it up mid season before getting to the meat of the Amon story later. But then, about four or five episodes in, after all this had already been established, they got knocked down to twelve episodes, meaning that they had to quickly cut out more than half the story and condense everything else down. It messed up the pacing and left too many unanswered questions and too few fulfilling resolutions.

As for the second season, they weren't told that they were even getting one until after the first season had finished airing, meaning they were given a late start on writing it since Nickelodeon still expected it to come out on time. Though, season two did still have many problems not relating to the rushed production...

I only wonder how good Korra could have been without d***bag executive meddling.

There's been a lot of speculation on how the series was affected by the schedule, time constraints and so on. I gave up trying to make sense of it at some point, since there's so much we'll just never know. It's not like they're going to come out and say "yeah, we wanted this story to be good but our timeframe got slashed so it is what it is". But with an ATLA remake, it becomes slightly more than pointless "what ifs". Even if a Korra remake is still purely hypothetical.