The simplest and most mundane fighter fix yet

[Rowanomicon]

Ok, ok, so I'm in the middle of making a character and working on two other homebrew classes, plus there's already loads of perfectly good fighter fixes out there already. I'm a terrible person, sue me.
This came to mind an I thought I might as well post it.

My ideas can be displayed with a very few simple point (but I'll also do a table). First, the points:
-All good saves (among other things this makes them better vs magic)
-More skill point (it's mundane and it's useful, plus it gives you plenty of room to customize); I was going to make it 8+int, but I don't want to cut in on the Rogue's turf too much; I guess I'll go with 6+int
-broadened class skill list
-a couple simple, mundane, abilities (specifically better abilities at higher levels)

Now, the table:
{table=head]Level|
Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
2nd|+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|
4th|+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
5th|+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Ability boost 1
6th|+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|
8th|+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|
10th|+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus feat, Ability boost 2
11th|+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|
12th|+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|
14th|+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Ability boost 3
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus feat, Ability boost 4[/table]

Ability Boost 1:
The fighter gains +1 to any ability of his choice.

Ability boost 2:
The fighter gains +2 to any ability of his choice. He may also choose to gain +1 to two separate abilities.

Ability boost 3:
The fighter gains +3 split between any two or more abilities of his choice.

Ability boost 4:
The fighter gains +4 split between any two or more abilities of his choice

Class Skills:
Everything except concentration, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device

Skill points:
4+int

Other than that as the normal Fighter:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm

[The Neoclassic]

I'd seriously decrease the class skills and make it 4 + Int. Otherwise, looks good. At first I was going to suggest making Will save poor, but I suppose if you are very good at your job you'll be very committed to it and hard to magically dissuade, if that makes any sense.

[paigeoliver]

I think it went a bit too far, as now it is far more powerful than the other PHB fighting classes. In general all good saves shouldn't be combine with full bab, and if it is then it should be a D6 hit die.

[Edea]

I dunno, the Warblade is a pretty darn effective "fix" for a Fighter, assuming you really have a problem with the Fighter to begin with (honestly, I did, but then again, I greatly favor spellcasting, so I was more than a bit biased in that opinion seeing how Warblades are more versatile than Fighters thanks to the maneuver mechanic).

I'm just not seeing why a Fighter would get Ref, Will, or ability boosts.

[Rowanomicon]

I've heard several people say that all good saves and full BAB, especially when combined with high HD (d8 in one case) is really good. I'd like those people to play a character who gets d10 HD, full BAB, all good saves, and 2+int skill points/level.
Yeah, it doesn't really measure up to Batman, CoDzilla, or a spell casting dire wolf now does it?

I think maybe taking the skill points down to 4+int might be a good idea. I'll sleep on it.

Now I agree this class might outshine a couple of the weaker base classes, but it isn't anywhere near the most powerful.

I'd like to say I've been trying to keep mundanish heros in mind while making this class.

I was reading some of the 'how mundane is mundane enough' thread and first of all I'd like to say I love playing all classes spell casters included (yes, even bard) and have never really had a class I play more often, but for me a 'mundane' warrior is all about pushing the limits of human capability. In other words they're like a normal guy only better, stronger, faster, more skilled, maybe smarter, wiser, or more charismatic. How better to show that than with higher ability scores?
The other thing is that ability bonuses in the hands of fighters is much less game disturbing than in the hands of spell casters. Partly because 4 extra damage doesn't measure up to an extra save vs lose/die spell.

The all good saves I think represent the mundane hero's ability to overcome great adversity and touch it out. The sheer will power to keep going, the ability to duck out of danger just in time, and the toughness to stick out most any affliction.

Also a note: Neither me nor this thread have nothing against ToB, in fact I've never read ToB. I'm sure there's great stuff in there; there might also be some no-so-great stuff in there. I judge not for I have only heard about it and not experienced it myself. In fact, this thread has nothing to do with ToB.

Anyone interested in running some play tests with this class? I think maybe a couple arena fights against other core classes to start.

[Human Paragon 3]

Many people complain about the fighter's many dead levels, and this fix does not quite address that issue. Why don't you spread the abillity boosts out a little more to avoid dead levels? Like, instead of giving abillity boost 2 a 2 point bonus, split it up. Ditto for the others.

[Finerty]

When looking at what dead levels to fill, don't necessarily look towards the beginning or the middle - focus on the end. A major problem with "fighter fixes", I've noticed, is a sweeping change that affects the entire class in all of it's drab, 20-level glory. Lower-level fighters are great. Swing martial weapon, hit monster. Hurray. The problem is that the power level increase of fighters is linear, and the power level increase of casters is closer to exponential. You actually don't need to worry too much about the first ten levels so much as you need to shift special abilities towards the later half to compensate for caster's higher-level spells.

[CrazyMuffinMan]

Lose the broad class skillset and it's pretty good :D.

[Rowanomicon]

Do you think it would be better to have all ability boosts be +1 and at levels 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, then have some capstone ability to go with the bonus feat of level 20 (either another another ability boost or something else)?

CrazyMuffinMan: Can you say why you don't think the Fighter should have as broad a class skill list. I feel it allows players to customize their Fighter more. Also Fighters generally have great skill either from training, experience, or both and while combat is the main focus it is not the only thing in their lives. Also I don't think it cuts in on other skill money classes' turf too much at 4+int and even at 6+int it's only second tier. I think I'll go with 4+int though, unless someone objects strongly and has a good case for why it should be more.

Also I know this class isn't as creative and pretty as some other Fighter fixes, but I personally think that with the sheer amount of feats Fighters get new talents should be made in the form of new feats. Also better feats can be balanced with stiffer prerequisites.

[CrazyMuffinMan]

Do you think it would be better to have all ability boosts be +1 and at levels 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, then have some capstone ability to go with the bonus feat of level 20 (either another another ability boost or something else)?

CrazyMuffinMan: Can you say why you don't think the Fighter should have as broad a class skill list. I feel it allows players to customize their Fighter more. Also Fighters generally have great skill either from training, experience, or both and while combat is the main focus it is not the only thing in their lives. Also I don't think it cuts in on other skill money classes' turf too much at 4+int and even at 6+int it's only second tier. I think I'll go with 4+int though, unless someone objects strongly and has a good case for why it should be more.

Also I know this class isn't as creative and pretty as some other Fighter fixes, but I personally think that with the sheer amount of feats Fighters get new talents should be made in the form of new feats. Also better feats can be balanced with stiffer prerequisites.

On second thought, you're right. Keep the class skills, just hold him to 4+int. Otherwise, he seems to be consistently better than the rogue, skillwise. Good ideas.

This fighter should have some atypical class skills, because it's not 100% of his life.

[Rowanomicon]

I've changed the OP to say 4+int for skill points.
Still not sure about the ability boosts, what do y'all think?

[OneWinged4ngel]

Geez, this doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, even the class skills are ridiculous. "Yeah, I know Autohypnosis, Psicraft, Truenaming, Iaijutsu, and Disable Device, but I don't know a skill that's entirely relevant to surviving on the battlefield (Spellcraft) or how to focus and concentrate well, despite my dedicated training (Concentration)?"

That makes no sense at all.

The ability boosts accomplish little. The all good save doesn't accomplish a ton.

What you *really* did was just make it an even better 2 level dip (4 more skill points, adds TONS of class skills that you can Able Learner up, and gets more Reflex and Will out of it).

This doesn't help the problem at all.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I meant everything in the PHB (I looked at the SRD sicne I don't have my books with me). I definitely did not mean psionic skills.

Concentration and Spellcraft would mean little to a fighter considering their actual uses. Then again, as a DM, if you wanted to play a Fighter with Spellcraft and Concentration I'd allow it.

You do bring up a good point though in that it's still a very enticing 2 level dip, in face better than before. There's not too much you can do to change that without taking way the bonus feat at first level. Think I should?

[Dryad]

Fighters should be the last people to run away, be charmed by anyone, or be impressed by illusions. So the high will saves: Good idea.
Reflex: Try to dodge anything while wearing a full plate set of armour. Not going to happen.
Fort: Yups, should be high, as well.

So I'm all for the will saves up.
Bút..
Fighters really don't have much level dip. I mean; take sorcerors. They don't get any specials as they advance. And aren't speedy on spell progression. Or worse; bards. They don't get anything other then more songs, and, eventually, some more leeway in flexibility.
The fighter gets a feat every other level! You can simply créate your own class features! If you want, and are creative enough, you can even create your very own class, if you play a fighter. Unarmed? Can do. Two weapons? Can do. Ranged? No problemo. Mounty? Sure; why not? Special Attack Bot? Again; no problem. With things like sunder, disarm, trip, thunderous Blow, battleshouts, and all that stuff, a fighter with the right career-choice might just be more effective at crowd-control than any caster.
In a row of 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, I can make:
Str: 16
Dex:14
Con: 15
Int: 13
wis:12
cha:12 (lvl 4 increase)

At sixth level, a human fighter gets: 8 feats.
Ok.
Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Power Attack
Bash (Standard action touch attack with blunt weapon. No damage. Stun 1 round. Fort dc 10 + damage rolled negates. use 1/day/character lvl. Can't use this feat in conjunction with feats or spells that grant you an extra attack, like Haste or Cleave.) (WoW d20)
Thunderbolt: Bash with ranged blunt weapon, such as throwing hammers or clubs. 1x Bash extra/day. (WoW d20)
Thunderous Blow:SA 1/day thunderclap: 20 ft radius Sound Burst, as spell. Does not provoke an attack of opportunity, no arcane spell failure. DC 10+1/2 char lvl+cha mod. Feat can be taken multiple times, each time you may use Thunderous Burst one extra time per day. Caster lvl=character lvl. (WoW d20)

And there you have a fighter, without a weapon focus, without a weapon specialisation, that can crowd-control like anything. Better, in fact, than most casters. And it puts the Heavy Flail to good use, too.

So people, there have been a lot of fighter fixes, but all in all: there's a ton of sourcebooks with tons of feats out there, that you can use to make your fighter interesting and useful. Why do we constantly try to make the fighter a better class, especially when it can easily match up, and better, nearly every other melee class, when built right? Fighters take the cream in melee, if only we step away from the standard Exotic Weapon Focus Specialization Critical Cleave fighter-idea. In which case she can only hit things hard.

[Dullyanna]

Fighters should be the last people to run away, be charmed by anyone, or be impressed by illusions. So the high will saves: Good idea.
Reflex: Try to dodge anything while wearing a full plate set of armour. Not going to happen.
Fort: Yups, should be high, as well.
*Snip*


Maybe fighters should be allowed to choose which saves don't suck (Not that it'll prevent spellcasters from kicking their arses at higher levels)? Why should a lightly armored, dexterity-based fighter have a crappy base reflex save? IMO, a big selling point for fighters is that you have a hell of a lot of ways to develop him/her. It's always seemed to me that the class should've been designed to cover almost all "types" of warriors.

[Logic]

As I am one of a group of DM's, and major changes (such as a "fix" to a fighter) has to be approved within the group. Would anyone care to link any of thier fighter fixes either here or in my PM.

[Rowanomicon]

I definitely think that it makes a lot of sense for any dex based fighters to to have a good ref save. Perhaps if armor check penalties counted against reflex saves. I personally think it should, but that's a different matter.

The problem with letting with letting players choose their good saves is:
A) Then we're getting into generic classes
B) There's no way of stopping a Fighter in full plate from choosing Reflex so it doesn't do anything for anyone's moral opposition to people in armor dodging things.

Besides I think that full plate armor should somewhat protect fighters from effects that require a reflex save.
So in my fighter fix all good saves are here to stay.

Maybe I'll get rid of the ability boosts since I believe that a fighter fix should come in the form of:
A) All good saves
B) broader class skill list and more skill points
C) bonus feats at every odd level (makes it so levels are less dead: every level offers either a bonus to saves or bonus feat; makes it less of a two level dip class); I'll change that on my table soon
D) A capstone ability
E) Most importantly: more and better feats

[Hawriel]

I totaly agree with giving the fighter 4 skill points, although to be fare I would only add afew skills as class skills. Such as deplomacy, knowledge skills exept arcane and planes, profession, and maybe listen, gather information, knowledge, heal, tumble, use rope. I dont know about giving them a stat boost out side of the normal every 4th character level. maybe weapon focus and specialisation at the same rate a ranger gets his favored enemy.

or as a special ability be able to specialise in weapon groups.

would this fit in with your idea?

oh PS edit. maybe as +2 to the bad saves so they end up as 8 instead of 6. I kinda always figured that should be the low save for every one.

[Caewil]

This still doesn't solve the mobility problem, that is how to get a full attack when the enemy is a wizard/balor/anything with ranged spells/abilities, or a Dragon with flyby attack, etc.

[magic8BALL]

...use a bow.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Concentration and Spellcraft would mean little to a fighter considering their actual uses. That's ridiculous. Spellcraft is an essential survival skill on a battlefield. It's prudent for any soldier to be able to identify the spells being cast against him. One needs to identify a threat in order to react appropriately. One who doesn't react appropriately on the battlefield... dies. Additionally, concentration has niche uses for the Fighter. On top of that, they all fit more flavorfully than many of the OTHER skills you've allowed them.


You do bring up a good point though in that it's still a very enticing 2 level dip, in face better than before. There's not too much you can do to change that without taking way the bonus feat at first level. Think I should?

No, I'm saying your fighter is still *ONLY* a 2 level dip, just a better one than before. All you did was enhance the base template (which gets its primary benefits at 1st level), and then do nothing to enhance the class features besides these "ability boosts" which seriously don't even matter. The Fighter still doesn't have any notable class features to speak of besides feats. Your fix doesn't actually fix the problems that the Fighter has. In fact, it makes some of them *worse.*

[Kagan]

I don't quite see how that's a fighter fix. The way I see it, the problem isn't that a fighter would lose in a duel to a wizard of equal level - that never has, and never should be the metric. It isn't that a fighter loses in a physical duel against a random big monster - it actually does rather well. The problem is that playing a fighter can be boring.

A wizard, cleric, or druid has countless strategies to consider both before and after spell preparation. A fighter already made all of those choices once he selected his feats - barring a DM allowing retraining, his tactics are set in stone. He's made his choices, so now it's just a question of approaching the enemy, and rolling a bunch of dice with whatever modifiers you've optimized to the greatest extent. Your "fix" doesn't remedy the more basic problem here. Martial characters as a whole are begging for variety.

The reason why Tome of Battle comes up on this topic is because it does a fairly decent job of rectifying the situation. Opening the door to a martial power source through stances, maneuvers and the like allows for tactical decisionmaking on a round-by-round basis that goes beyond "ok, so who do I trip this round?".

A higher reflex and will save is good and fun, but it doesn't address the more pressing staleness factor. I'd focus more on giving the fighter additional options and tactics to choose from over the course of an encounter, and steer away from ability score modifiers and higher saving throws. Make a fighter that's fun to play, and the volume of complaints about it being "underpowered" will diminish. Changing the fighter such that he does a few extra damage each round might solve the problem for some players, but it certainly wouldn't for me.

[Dryad]

Kagan: You're absolutely right. Tried to solve that with an example of choice of tactical feats, but still can't beat what you said.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)
Besides I think that full plate armor should somewhat protect fighters from effects that require a reflex save.
(...)
Won't work, because most area effects ignores armor anyway. A web will hold you armor anyway it holds you, lightning bolts will be almost be attracted to you, and fireballs will burn you despite armor or not.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes Kagan you are right. Role playing is first and foremost about fun.
I suppose letting a Fighter re-choose their feats for every day would be a better fix for you?

Adding variety is a big part of why I changed the skills the way I did.

This isn't a Fighter Fix that I spelt long hard house coming up with. It's something that literally popped into my head and I though, "Hm, That's interesting; I think I'll post that on GiantITP."

Roderick, I know that in the RAW those effect ignore armor.
However I do think that some Fighter build should have a good Reflex save. it only makes sense that a Dex based Fighter would have a good Reflex save. It just feels wrong if he doesn't. Then you have the issue of letting a Fighter decide which save(s) are good and bad. However, that feels too much like Generic Classes to me and I wouldn't want it in the core. Also it doesn't stop a full plate Fighter from choosing Reflex as his good save. That combined with the perseverance that a Fighter should be capable of, plus the disadvantage against magic, means to me that a Fighter should have all good saves. If a DM wants to rule that a lightning bolt spell is attracted to the guy in full plate than that is their choice as a DM, however that s not stated anywhere in the RAW that I am aware of.

[Krelon]

I don't think that fighters need a fix, maybe except for more skillpoints (4+int sounds good)

I advice starting a few games at the good old level 1. The first 4 fighter levels simply rock (3 feats, BAB, 1d10 hp). Compare that to some others in the party. Later on the fighter is the only one who can have a tactical feat or a weapon style feat and prerequisite feats to a cool prestige class.

I don't see a base class as the end of a PC, prestige classes offer tons of possibilities and fighter feats are really very good because you don't have to wait until level 9/12/15 to get that one feat you are missing..

about the fun of playing a fighter: if you prefer spells play a spellcaster, simple as that. In any case the fun when roleplaying comes from roleplaying, it shouldnt matter if you have 3 ways of killing a mob on the grid or only 1.

[magic8BALL]

...adding to Krelon's post, the fighter as it is presented in the v3.5 PHB is the best class to start a new player on - especially at low levels.

New to the game? Grab a sword and bash something!

I've been playing for years, and I'm still getting my head around all the spells wizards fling around all day.

In defence of the high level fighter's abilities, a wizard may only cast a certain number of spells a day. It is the casters that force the party to rest, not the stand 'n' slash types at all. In this respect, a party of big characters with equally big weapons can be more fun than a band of wizards with 80hp between them.

[Jervas Dudley]

I feel really bad for posting this, but I've poked around in the "how mundane..." thread and what most of the people who want it to be more mundane seem to mean is the Charles Atlas Superpower (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower).

...in the land of make-believe, training can literally give you superhuman powers! Intense exercise can let you split boulders, jump three stories straight up, and make your skin bulletproof... somehow. A lot of characters...have out-and-out superhuman abilities, as noted by minor characters. And the explanation for such powers is always just, "They trained really hard for several years. Train, and you, too, can bash mountains open with your head."
An example is Batman, the Punisher, or many other "mundane" superheroes.
What the Swordsage (Warblade? I don't the Tome of Battle available right now to check) seems to introduce is Ki Attacks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KiAttacks):

Ki (or "chi") is the life force energy of the martial artist and/or the world around him; true masters can tap into that energy and use it for what amounts to superhero-style attacks.

Which are distinct from magic (arguably, it is different at the very least), but still with a supernatural flavor. An example is Dragonball Z (I know there are better ones, but who doesn't know DBZ?)
The reason I feel bad posting those links is that introducing some people (like myself) to the TV Tropes wiki is like assassinating their free time, but the descriptions seem so apt to the discussion.
-Jervas

[Rowanomicon]

To a certain extent a Charles Atlas type training would work well for me, but I have to say I would never play a DBZ-like character and I might even leave a group if someone in it did.
No offense meant to anyone who like DBZ or DBZ-like character, it's just my personal feelings on the matter.