Conjure Elemental - how do you raise the CR with a higher level spell slot?

[holywhippet]

The rules for conjure elemental says you increase the CR of the summoned elemental based on the spell slot used. Or basically the CR equals the slot used with the minimum being 5 since that is the minimum spell slot required. But how exactly do you increase the CR of any given elemental?

[JackPhoenix]

You don't, you summon a creature with Elemental type and the appropriate CR.

[holywhippet]

You don't, you summon a creature with Elemental type and the appropriate CR.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_MonstersByType_1.0.pdf

That is a list of the elemental types in the monster manual AFAIK. There are only two at CR 6 and none for CR 7-9.

[JackPhoenix]

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_MonstersByType_1.0.pdf

That is a list of the elemental types in the monster manual AFAIK. There are only two at CR 6 and none for CR 7-9.

Yeah, not much of a reason to upcast. There are also elemental myrmidons at CR7 from PotA and... MToF, I think?, but that's it, the next elementals are CR 11 genies.

[holywhippet]

Actually now that I take a closer look it says level 5 or lower. So how is that determined? Roll a dice with enough sides to cover all possible CRs? It also means you could cast using a level 9 slot and get a CR 1 fire snake.

[JackPhoenix]

The DM decides.

[Unoriginal]

Actually now that I take a closer look it says level 5 or lower. So how is that determined? Roll a dice with enough sides to cover all possible CRs? It also means you could cast using a level 9 slot and get a CR 1 fire snake.


The DM decides.

No, the player decides the CR of the creature.

[JackPhoenix]

No, the player decides the CR of the creature.

Nope, player decides the target area (which influences the element) and the level of the spell, which determines the highest possible CR of the summoned creature. But the player has no control over what creature appears or exact CR.

"Choose an area of air, earth, fire, or water that fills a 10-foot cube within range. An elemental of challenge rating 5 or lower appropriate to the area you chose appears in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of it. For example, a fire elemental emerges from a bonfire, and an earth elemental rises up from the ground."

The bolded part, and the level of the slot, are the only choices player has influence over.

[dejarnjc]

Nope, player decides the target area (which influences the element) and the level of the spell, which determines the highest possible CR of the summoned creature. But the player has no control over what creature appears or exact CR.

"Choose an area of air, earth, fire, or water that fills a 10-foot cube within range. An elemental of challenge rating 5 or lower appropriate to the area you chose appears in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of it. For example, a fire elemental emerges from a bonfire, and an earth elemental rises up from the ground."

The bolded part, and the level of the slot, are the only choices player has influence over.

I'm fairly confident the RAI is the player chooses for this spell. RAI trumps RAW 90% of the time. And do you know what trumps both of those? Player fun. It wouldn't be enjoyable for me as a player or as a DM to have a player utilize a level 5 spell to summon a CR 1/4 mephit.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm fairly confident the RAI is the player chooses for this spell. RAI trumps RAW 90% of the time. And do you know what trumps both of those? Player fun. It wouldn't be enjoyable for me as a player or as a DM to have a player utilize a level 5 spell to summon a CR 1/4 mephit.

Then simply don't give him CR 1/4 mephit. It's not any more complicated as that. But RAI is that the DM chooses.


When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?

A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial, Conjure Minor Elementals, and Conjure Woodland Beings are just a few examples.
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, Find Familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from.
Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, Conjure Minor Elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:

• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower

The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower.

A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.

Now check again my previous post to see what choices are offered to the player with Conjure Elemental: area and the slot level used to cast the spell, nothing more.

[dejarnjc]

Then simply don't give him CR 1/4 mephit. It's not any more complicated as that. But RAI is that the DM chooses.

Oh and apparently you designed the game so you're confident about the RAI eh? Yah sure... OK.

[Scarytincan]

The myrmidons are decent, they have magic weapons if you need those and I believe are a bit more tanky but less mobile generally. Also you can summon the CR 9 frost salamander iirc, in addition to CR 6 invisible stalker and galeb duhr

[JackPhoenix]

Oh and apparently you designed the game so you're confident about the RAI eh? Yah sure... OK.

No, but I can actually read. Did you see the part of the post where I quoted the designer's intent? I even underlined that part and all...

"The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option."

[dejarnjc]

No, but I can actually read. Did you see the part of the post where I quoted the designer's intent? I even underlined that part and all...

"The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option."

From Sage Advice:
"Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower

The design intent for options like these is that the spell-caster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option."

Conjure Elemental (and conjure fey) are worded differently enough from the spells referenced in Sage Advice that I'm of the opinion they don't fall under the same rules as the above. They don't have "options like these" which are specifically referenced, i.e. the One CR 2 option, Two CR 1 option, 4 CR 1/2 option etc. Feel free to disagree if you'd like though.

And even if it does, only the worst kind of DM would deliberately **** with the spell like that so it's kind of a moot point any way.

[MaxWilson]

The rules for conjure elemental says you increase the CR of the summoned elemental based on the spell slot used. Or basically the CR equals the slot used with the minimum being 5 since that is the minimum spell slot required. But how exactly do you increase the CR of any given elemental?

Assuming you're asking as a DM...

You could always just scale up the damage and HP using the DMG Quick Monster tables as a guide. Larger and larger elementals are a big part of (A)D&D's history--don't let the fact that the MM has only one size of each elemental stop you.

You could also use this tool (http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html) if you don't want to pull out your DMG.

For example, a normal Air Elemental is... call it the equivalent of 135 HP (90 HP * 1.5 for weapon resistance) with 28 DPR at +8 to hit and AC 15. Plug that in... yep, CR 5, so it's probably okay to just ignore Whirlwind attack for now. Let's say I want something that's CR 7. I'll guesstimate that by adding +2 to AC and +2 to-hit (which I'll attribute to adding Dex +4, total Dex 24) and an extra dice on each attack, for 2x +10 to hit for 3d8+7 each (41 DPR), and setting size to Huge, with an extra 6 Hit Dice. (12d10+24 ==> 18d10 + 36 ==> 135 HP on average)

135 HP becomes 203 effective HP because of weapon resistance. 203 HP, AC 17, 41 DPR, and +10 to hit... plugged into the table that gives me... CR 9, so I've overtuned. I'll make this the CR 9 Elemental (bumping up to-hit to +11 for the extra proficiency bonus, which doesn't change the CR) and I'll make a new CR 7 one, which should be about halfway between, with Dex 22 and 15d10+30 HP (113 HP average) doing 2x +9 to hit for 2d10+6 (34 DPR).

113 becomes 169 HP because of weapon resistance. 169 HP, AC 16, 34 DPR, +9 to hit yields... CR 7. So yep, that gives me three air elementals:

Regular MM Air Elemental: Large, 90 HP. Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 10 Cha 6, 90' flying speed (hover), Multiattack for 2x +8 to hit for 2d8+5 per hit. DC 13 Whirlwind for 3d8+2 and 20' fling. CR 5.

Bigger Air Elemental: Large, 113 HP. Str 16 Dex 22 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8, 90' flying speed (hover), Multiattack for 2x +9 to hit for 2d10+6 per hit. DC 14 Whirlwind for 3d8+3 and 30' fling. CR 7.

Giant Air Elemental: Huge, 135 HP. Str 18 Dex 24 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8, 100' flying speed (hover), Multiattack for 2x +11 to hit for 3d8+7 per hit. DC 15 Whirlwind for 3d8+4 and 40' fling. CR 9.

As you can see, there's really not all that much difference between a CR 5 creature and a CR 9 creature.

[JackPhoenix]

From Sage Advice:
"Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower

The design intent for options like these is that the spell-caster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option."

Conjure Elemental (and conjure fey) are worded differently enough from the spells referenced in Sage Advice that I'm of the opinion they don't fall under the same rules as the above. They don't have "options like these" which are specifically referenced, i.e. the One CR 2 option, Two CR 1 option, 4 CR 1/2 option etc. Feel free to disagree if you'd like though.

And even if it does, only the worst kind of DM would deliberately **** with the spell like that so it's kind of a moot point any way.

Sure, Conjure Elemental's option is "Choose an area of air, earth, fire, or water that fills a 10-foot cube within range." But after that, it's still the DM who decides what creature appears, and the spell says CR 5 or lower. Even if you use level 6 slot, if you choose area of fire or water, you'll get CR 5 Fire or Water elemental at best, as there's no CR6 elemental appropriate for fire or air.

[MaxWilson]

Sure, Conjure Elemental's option is "Choose an area of air, earth, fire, or water that fills a 10-foot cube within range." But after that, it's still the DM who decides what creature appears, and the spell says CR 5 or lower. Even if you use level 6 slot, if you choose area of fire or water, you'll get CR 5 Fire or Water elemental at best, as there's no CR6 elemental appropriate for fire or air.

Ahem. The DM is empowered to create whatever monsters he likes.

[Unoriginal]

Nope, player decides the target area (which influences the element) and the level of the spell, which determines the highest possible CR of the summoned creature. But the player has no control over what creature appears or exact CR.

"Choose an area of air, earth, fire, or water that fills a 10-foot cube within range. An elemental of challenge rating 5 or lower appropriate to the area you chose appears in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of it. For example, a fire elemental emerges from a bonfire, and an earth elemental rises up from the ground."

The bolded part, and the level of the slot, are the only choices player has influence over.

I apologize. It seems I had misread the Sage Advice on the question.

[JackPhoenix]

Ahem. The DM is empowered to create whatever monsters he likes.

Oh, I forgot every DM is capable of creating balanced CR6 creatures on the spot. Right.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, I forgot every DM is capable of creating balanced CR6 creatures on the spot. Right.

Hey, you're the one who made an absurd, absolutist claim, not me.


you'll get CR 5 Fire or Water elemental at best, as there's no CR6 elemental appropriate for fire or air[sic] (emphasis added)

If you'd said, "You risk winding up with a CR 5 Fire or Water Elemental, if the DM isn't up to creating custom elementals on the spot and you haven't discussed it with him in advance," I'd agree with you. That's a very different statement than the one I quoted.

[JackPhoenix]

Hey, you're the one who made an absurd, absolutist claim, not me.

(emphasis added)

If you'd said, "You risk winding up with a CR 5 Fire or Water Elemental, if the DM isn't up to creating custom elementals on the spot and you haven't discussed it with him in advance," I'd agree with you. That's a very different statement than the one I quoted.

All right, then sorry for talking about the game as it is, without homebrew. Because I haven't realized homebrew should totally be taken into account when discussing rules as written in their current form.

[dejarnjc]

All right, then sorry for talking about the game as it is, without homebrew. Because I haven't realized homebrew should totally be taken into account when discussing rules as written in their current form.

Homebrew should always be considered if you're aiming for a practical discussion. I can't imagine there's a game out there that doesn't use some sort of homebrew, variant, rule misinterpretation or whatever, whether intentional or not.


Also just a note, there is a CR 6 elemental appropriate for air. Ignore, this is a comment on an obvious typo of yours

[MaxWilson]

All right, then sorry for talking about the game as it is, without homebrew. Because I haven't realized homebrew should totally be taken into account when discussing rules as written in their current form.

I thought we were talking about what will actually happen at the table.

[JackPhoenix]

I thought we were talking about what will actually happen at the table.

And you can guarantee the GM will be able to pull appropriate creature out of their behind on the spot? Or that they'll have time or inclination to discuss possible corner cases with their player up front, and the player don't decide to spontaneously do something the GM doesn't expect? What if the GM is too inexperienced or just lazy to create appropriate creature? What if it's AL game where the GM may not be familiar with the player and unable to homebrew stuff? Just because some people can do it doesn't mean everyone can.

Be honest: before this thread came about, did you have CR 6 fire and water elementals (thanks for noticing the typo, btw) ready just in case? Can you say with certainty that the players would discuss with you up front that they might want to upcast Conjure Elemental on water or fire?

[MaxWilson]

And you can guarantee the GM will be able to pull appropriate creature out... on the spot? Or that they'll have time or inclination to discuss possible corner cases with their player up front, and the player don't decide to spontaneously do something the GM doesn't expect? What if the GM is too inexperienced or just lazy to create appropriate creature? What if it's AL game where the GM may not be familiar with the player and unable to homebrew stuff? Just because some people can do it doesn't mean everyone can.

You were the one who claimed to guarantee that none of this would ever happen.

I think it will sometimes happen, and upthread I gave guidance to a poster as to how to make it happen.


Be honest: before this thread came about, did you have CR 6 fire and water elementals (thanks for noticing the typo, btw) ready just in case?

No, because as you can see I had no trouble coming up with them when I needed them. (And as you can also see, upcasting Conjure Elemental isn't really worth the bother if you're not Planar Binding them.)


Can you say with certainty that the players would discuss with you up front that they might want to upcast Conjure Elemental on water or fire?

Irrelevant. You were the one who claimed that DMs would never give you anything but bog-standard MM elementals, and that claim is false. Sometimes you'll get bog-standard CR 5 elementals out of a higher-level slot; other times you might get reskinned CR 6-7 beasts; other times you might get a scaled-up MM elemental, or something else entirely. It depends on the DM.