Bear Monk Forest Barb

[Gayle_Force]

So the group I play with is gearing up for a 3.5 campaign starting at 10th level. Fighting demons will be a big part of it.

The current party will consist of a sorcerer focusing on debuff spells, a druid, a swift hunter (ranger/scout), and a tripping specialist. I had played a Cleric before and wanted something simpler (I do not want to worry about preparing spells) and thought punching things to death would be fun. So I was thinking of playing a Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior. I was curious about the best way to enter the class.

Guidelines:
- No Multi-class penalties but keep within reason.
- Sources allowed with no questions: PHB 1&2, DMG, Unearthed Arcana, the Complete books, Book of Exalted Deeds, Spell Compendium (though not sure why this would matter). Anything else will require approval before use.
- Starting attributes to be dispersed as desired: 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13

Here are my questions:

1) Should I start as Monk, Barbarian, add some fighter to the mix?
2) In bear form, how would BAB attacks, Flurry of blows, and Natural weapon attacks stack?
3) I deal races to pick? The idea of being a small race turning into a large bear makes me giggle.
4) Besides pre-reqs, what feats are a must to help the character?
5) Best items to enhance the character?

Input would be greatly appreciated. Current idea for the build would be:

S - 18 +2 (VoP)
D - 15 +1 (lvl 8)
C - 17 +1 (lvl 4)
I - 14
W - 16
Ch - 13

Monk 3/Barbarian 2/Fist of Forest 3/Bear Warrior 2

Feats:
Lvl 1: ??? Able learner if human?
Human: Great Fortitude
M1: Improved Unarmed Strike
M1: Stunning Fist
M2: Combat reflexes
Lvl 3: Power Attack

Not sure what other feats would be good to get. Thanks for any and all input!

EDIT: Took out references to Vow of Poverty since I was alerted it was a total TRAP... even though the defensive bonuses and stat boosts seemed really nice....

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gayle_Force
3) I saw Vow of Poverty and thought it looked really neat, but certain places said it is a terrible feat unless certain criteria are met. Since I could take it at lvl 1, could it be worth it?

You may get some strong reactions to the mention of VoP. Most people will urge you to avoid it. The fact that you’re starting at tenth level will only accentuate the issues involved, so let me be the first to recommend that you set this option aside.

[The Glyphstone]

The only criteria for Vow of Poverty being good is 'the GM is artifically ruining WBL by not giving you any treasure'. If you get treasure, VoP is bad, full stop.

If you are starting at 10th level, presumably with appropriate wealth, do not take VoP. You are hamstringing yourself for no gain.

[Gayle_Force]

Edited the original post to avoid the PoV warnings. Thanks.

[16bearswutIdo]

Your group doesn't sound particularly OP, would that be right? If so, VoP wouldn't be HORRENDOUS on an unarmed bear warrior shapeshifting type. It's not necessarily optimal, but if you think it sounds cool and like a fun addition, go for it. You'll be weaker than you would be with optimal item purchasing, but as long as you're relatively within your group's power, who cares?

As for your other questions...

1. I'd do 1-2 levels of Monk into 2 levels of Barbarian, 1-2 levels of fighter, and straight into FotF when you have +4 BAB. After you finish FotF, go into Bear Warrior.

2. To the best of my knowledge, Bear Warrior attacks work as: You can unarmed strike as normal, and then add on your natural attacks. Could definitely be wrong here though.

3. See above

4. None of the exalted feats are incredible "must-haves", so just go with what feels cool. I'm a big fan of Stigmata, just because imagining this bear healing people with the wounds of Christ makes me crack up.

5. Human is literally never a bad choice, especially for an unarmed fighter. M size > SHH advantages.

6. You'd definitely want to pick up superior unarmed strike if you can. Extra Stunning Fist/Extra Rage would also be good if you want to use those a lot.

7. If you don't have VoP, definitely pick up a Monk's Belt to increase your damage die a lot, especially if you combine it with Superior Unarmed Strike.

[RaiKirah]

Some stream of consciousness thoughts:

I'd second only two levels of monk unless you're taking the Invisible Fist ACF to be an invisible Kung Fu bear in which case level 3 makes sense. Also look at the alternative fighting style monk ACFs from UA (particularly Overwhelming Attack).

1-2 levels of Barbarian (2 only really if you're going Wolf Totem for Improved Trip), with all the ACFs you want.

Sprinkle fighter as you want for extra feats.

In terms of small races, if you can get access to them the Tibbit has a Tiny cat form, and there are both sparrow and crab forms for Hengeyokai (la +0 in the Drago Mag 318 update) which would be hilarious to turn into a bear from.

[Gayle_Force]

Also, how does the double damage from decisive strike ACF from PHB 2 work? Would it be worth trading flurry of blows for it?

[RaiKirah]

Both of them are pretty garbage. If you don't need flurry to qualify for anything (some feats and PrCs) then go ahead and trade it away. It also doesn't really work with Natural Attacks; you're better off getting Two Weapon Fighting to go along with your unarmed strikes, because as a monk you can TWF with your non-claw limbs and then take your bite and 2 claw attacks as secondaries (-5 unless you have Multiattack which makes them at -2).

[Gayle_Force]

Both of them are pretty garbage. If you don't need flurry to qualify for anything (some feats and PrCs) then go ahead and trade it away. It also doesn't really work with Natural Attacks; you're better off getting Two Weapon Fighting to go along with your unarmed strikes, because as a monk you can TWF with your non-claw limbs and then take your bite and 2 claw attacks as secondaries (-5 unless you have Multiattack which makes them at -2).

So at lvl 10, I would have 2 attacks from BAB (+9/+4) and 3 natural attacks.

Without any feats, can I take 5 attacks then? +9/+4 and then +4/+4/+4?

If I 2 weapon fight with the feat I would attacks at +7/+7/+4 and then +4/+4/+4?

[RaiKirah]

So at lvl 10, I would have 2 attacks from BAB (+9/+4) and 3 natural attacks.

Without any feats, can I take 5 attacks then? +9/+4 and then +4/+4/+4?

If I 2 weapon fight with the feat I would attacks at +7/+7/+4 and then +4/+4/+4?

It would be +7/+7/+2 and then +4/+4/+4 (Two Weapon Fighting applies to all attacks in your primary routine)

[Gayle_Force]

It would be +7/+7/+2 and then +4/+4/+4 (Two Weapon Fighting applies to all attacks in your primary routine)

Okay and from what I gather, flurry of blows would not work in conjunction with the natural attacks but if it did, then it would be +5/+5/+5/+0?

[RaiKirah]

Okay and from what I gather, flurry of blows would not work in conjunction with the natural attacks but if it did, then it would be +5/+5/+5/+0?

Yup! You are correct!

[Gayle_Force]

So going forward, I plan on going at least to Bear warrior 5 if not all the way. And I hear Warshaper is pretty good.

Anything else to add in or just monk or Barb levels? Also, what would be items I would want to acquire? Bracers of armor seem nice, Possible a Monk Belt, but I am not sure if the bonus is worth it or not. Is a belt of giant strength worth it compared to the crazy amounts I will already be getting?

For feats I guess I would want to look and multi-attack and multi-grab/improved multi-grab if I want to be a grappling master?

[Rebel7284]

I really like combining Fist of the Forest with Deepwarden for silly silly AC shenenigans. Sadly the Races series doesn't seem to be on your allowed list, so that takes that off the table.

[ATHATH]

Do you wanna trick out your Monk and Barbarian levels with ACFs and variants, or stick to the original versions? Because if so, we can turn you into an intermittently invisible, pouncing bear that nauseates people on a strike twice per day and which gets 2 extra attacks on a full attack, just with the three levels of Monk and two levels of Barbarian that you're taking before Bear Warrior.

Now, you might not be able to snag ALL of those features, since I think a few of them come from "needs approval" sources, but the most important bit of that (the Pounce ability) most certainly CAN be picked up from your allowed sources.

How're you resolving the alignment conflict between Monk and Barbarian? The Chaos Monk variant?

[16bearswutIdo]

How're you resolving the alignment conflict between Monk and Barbarian? The Chaos Monk variant?

Probably explaining it through backstory.

"so and so was a member of a monastic order that he left because of its rigid structure"

[Gayle_Force]

I really like combining Fist of the Forest with Deepwarden for silly silly AC shenenigans. Sadly the Races series doesn't seem to be on your allowed list, so that takes that off the table.

Funny thing, Dwarves do not exist in this world or at least so we believe currently. They probably did at some point but no longer (killed off?).

[Gayle_Force]

Do you wanna trick out your Monk and Barbarian levels with ACFs and variants, or stick to the original versions? Because if so, we can turn you into an intermittently invisible, pouncing bear that nauseates people on a strike twice per day and which gets 2 extra attacks on a full attack, just with the three levels of Monk and two levels of Barbarian that you're taking before Bear Warrior.

Now, you might not be able to snag ALL of those features, since I think a few of them come from "needs approval" sources, but the most important bit of that (the Pounce ability) most certainly CAN be picked up from your allowed sources.

How're you resolving the alignment conflict between Monk and Barbarian? The Chaos Monk variant?

Basically backstory. It is also why I will have to start monk because they do not lose anything from changing alignment where Barbarians lose rage.

Pouncing is from Lion Totem Barbarian?

I looked up Chaos Monk, is flailing strikes simply a better flurry of blows when it rolls well? and at worst you miss an attack? I will run it past my DM unless there are feats/PrCs requiring Flurry of Blows.

Another Question, This would require approval but I saw in some other threads the Frost Rager PrC, something or other. Would having vulnerability to fire be really bad if fighting a lot of Demons? The rake ability seems awesome but not sure if it is worth that weakness.

[Gayle_Force]

Feel free to offer any PrCs, ACFs, or Feats from sources outside the ones listed above. It would simply mean I would need approval to use it.

Is it worth picking up the improved grab feat? I know I have it in bear form. I saw in Savage Species there is the Multigrab and Improved Multigrab feats which would need approval but I am unsure how grappling would work with my attacks in bear form.

EDIT:
For instance, I think I may try and get raging monk approved from Dragon Magazine unless I need flurry of blows for something since it would stack my monk and barbarian levels for rage/day purposes.

[RaiKirah]

Another Question, This would require approval but I saw in some other threads the Frost Rager PrC, something or other. Would having vulnerability to fire be really bad if fighting a lot of Demons? The rake ability seems awesome but not sure if it is worth that weakness.

Probably would be bad, but let me draw your attention to the Blazing Berserker feat from Sandstorm.nyou get the fire subtype while raging. So you become immune to both fire and cold, with the added bonus of being a flaming ice-bear :)

[Gayle_Force]

Probably would be bad, but let me draw your attention to the Blazing Berserker feat from Sandstorm.nyou get the fire subtype while raging. So you become immune to both fire and cold, with the added bonus of being a flaming ice-bear :)

That would be pretty awesome.

Another question about feats:

So I am heavily considering the lion totem to replace my fast movement feature. I then take Leap attack and shock trooper. While I will make myself easier to hit, at lvl 9 I could take a -9 to AC (due to shock trooper), and then add 18 damage to each of my 5 attacks? +9/+4 & +4/+4/+4 though I would take a -2 on all attacks from the charge?

[RaiKirah]

That is correct. There are a number of ways to increase that damage too (Powerful Lunge from Ghostwalk let's you add double you str bonus on a charge at the cost of provoking an AoO, Headlong Rush from Races of Faerun doubles your damage on a charge if you are an orc or half orc, the Valorous enchantment on a Necklace Of Natural Attacks (costs the same as an equivalent weapon, can effect more than one natural attack for a straight cost multiplier, and recall your unarmed strikes count as natural attacks) again doubles your damage on a charge, etc.). Optimize to the level of your table.

[Gayle_Force]

That is correct. There are a number of ways to increase that damage too (Powerful Lunge from Ghostwalk let's you add double you str bonus on a charge at the cost of provoking an AoO, Headlong Rush from Races of Faerun doubles your damage on a charge if you are an orc or half orc, the Valorous enchantment on a Necklace Of Natural Attacks (costs the same as an equivalent weapon, can effect more than one natural attack for a straight cost multiplier, and recall your unarmed strikes count as natural attacks) again doubles your damage on a charge, etc.). Optimize to the level of your table.

... wow, that is awesome... I am getting more and more excited about being kung-fu panda...

If approved, would it be better to take the decisive strike ACF to get double damage on attacks if the target fails my stunning strike attempt or drop flurry of blows for the rage feature in dragon magazine so it stacks with barbarian levels?

[RaiKirah]

If approved, would it be better to take the decisive strike ACF to get double damage on attacks if the target fails my stunning strike attempt or drop flurry of blows for the rage feature in dragon magazine so it stacks with barbarian levels?

If it stacks for number of rage uses per day it's probably worthwhile as you'll get another rage usage. That said, you should probably be getting the Extra Rage feat anyways which mostly covers you for expected encounters a day. Decisive Strike is pretty good, but will have limited uses a day. Useful for boss fights though.

[Gayle_Force]

If it stacks for number of rage uses per day it's probably worthwhile as you'll get another rage usage. That said, you should probably be getting the Extra Rage feat anyways which mostly covers you for expected encounters a day. Decisive Strike is pretty good, but will have limited uses a day. Useful for boss fights though.

After re-reading decisive strike, I realized you take the Full round action (not attack) to make a single attack. It seems to lose something for me then since this guys seems more about volume of attacks. So between flurry of blows and rage, I choose rage.

[liquidformat]

1) If you aren't going for pouncing invisible bear, then Bear Totem Barb3/Overwhelming Attack monk 2 nets you toughness, great fort, +4 grapple checks, power attack, and imp bull rush which is better than taking a third level of monk or a level of fighter. Also Whirling Frenzy is probably going to do better than rage...

Since Frostburn isn't a standard source for your game it might be a struggle but I would take Primeval over Bear Warrior, it hands down gives you more bang for your buck. You could take dire puma form which gives you pounce, imp grab and a climb speed. Sabertooth is awesome if you can convince the dm to let you take it which is reasonable if you already have 8+ levels when you enter the clans.
2) In bear form, how would BAB attacks, Flurry of blows, and Natural weapon attacks stack? You are literally becoming congfu panda, your primary flurry of blows functions like normal then you get all your natural attacks at -5 full bab.
3) human is always great, if you take kobold, dragonborn, or silverbrow you can take rapidstrike improved rapid strike.
4) rapidstrike/improved rapid strike if you are draconic, Leap Attack, Shock trooper.
5) Honestly I think specifically since you are doing a shape change build VOP is a better choice. You are either wasting your money on wilding clasping all your gear or you go VOP. I know everyone hates on VoP but in all my games where I play primeval it is categorically better.

[ShurikVch]

Note: The Sacred Order of Man-Beasts (https://paizo.com/dungeonissues/100/Dungeon100Enhancement.pdf) have Dire Reincarnation spell, which works alike to Reincarnate, but all possible incarnations are Dire Animals
So, how about to be reborn as a true (Dire) Bear Monk?
(If we look at the Lone Tooth - Dire Lion Monk 12 at the same Dungeon #100 - as example, characters affected with the Dire Reincarnation aren't get any racial HD, and their Type changes to Magical Beast rather than Animal)

[Gayle_Force]

1) If you aren't going for pouncing invisible bear, then Bear Totem Barb3/Overwhelming Attack monk 2 nets you toughness, great fort, +4 grapple checks, power attack, and imp bull rush which is better than taking a third level of monk or a level of fighter. Also Whirling Frenzy is probably going to do better than rage...

Since Frostburn isn't a standard source for your game it might be a struggle but I would take Primeval over Bear Warrior, it hands down gives you more bang for your buck. You could take dire puma form which gives you pounce, imp grab and a climb speed. Sabertooth is awesome if you can convince the dm to let you take it which is reasonable if you already have 8+ levels when you enter the clans.
2) In bear form, how would BAB attacks, Flurry of blows, and Natural weapon attacks stack? You are literally becoming congfu panda, your primary flurry of blows functions like normal then you get all your natural attacks at -5 full bab.
3) human is always great, if you take kobold, dragonborn, or silverbrow you can take rapidstrike improved rapid strike.
4) rapidstrike/improved rapid strike if you are draconic, Leap Attack, Shock trooper.
5) Honestly I think specifically since you are doing a shape change build VOP is a better choice. You are either wasting your money on wilding clasping all your gear or you go VOP. I know everyone hates on VoP but in all my games where I play primeval it is categorically better.

Hopefully in addition to bear totem Barb, overwhelming attack monk, he would let me re-fluff lion totem to still get the pounce ability. Then I would be set for pre-req feats for a bunch of stuff and could get fun feats to increase power after that.

I had done a cost comparison on the benefits of VoP @ lvl 10 and lvl 20 using the closet magic item I could acquire (not perfect though) and came up with 76,000+ gold @ lvl 10 (this did not include an item for the DR 5/magic and bonus feats) and @ lvl 20 it was 558,000 (again not including the DR 10/evil and the bonus feats).

At lvl 10 it seems I would be ahead of the curve but at later levels is where the difference in gold surpasses it depending on the value of the extra feats I would get from VoP. The biggest issue is it seems like I will be a little feat starved no matter what and will have to make tough choices on feat progression.

Not that this would change anything but the Druid is the captain of a flying demon ship that runs off of life source (the plan is to start powering it with demons we fight) and the sorcerer has a plan to be able to cast Limited wish 4 times/day with no EXP cost through Dweomerkeeper at lvl 19.

[ATHATH]

5) Honestly I think specifically since you are doing a shape change build VOP is a better choice. You are either wasting your money on wilding clasping all your gear or you go VOP. I know everyone hates on VoP but in all my games where I play primeval it is categorically better.
Until you need to fly. Or deal something other than physical damage. Or deal with most kinds of damage reduction. Or make a ranged attack. Or contribute at all in a way that isn't "hit things really hard/often/quickly", "make plans", "disguise self as a bear", and/or "sometimes talk/growl, but nowhere nearly as good as the party face (or just party CHA-based class) can with his magic items".

For a good analysis on why VoP sucks so badly, even (and especially) on Monks, see here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/12534/vow-of-poverty-overpowered-or-underpowered

[Gayle_Force]

So as a quick aside here would be lvl 10 w/ VoP from a feat perspective:

Lvl 1 - Sacred Vow
Human - Vow of Poverty
VoP1 - Touch of Golden Ice
M1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
M1 - Power Attack
M2 - Improved Bull Rush
VoP2 - Nimbus of Light
B1 - Toughness
Lvl 3 - Extra Rage/Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes)
B2 - Improved Grapple
VoP4 - Righteous Wrath
B3 - Great Fortitude
Lvl 6 - Leap Attack
VoP 6 - Stigmata/Sanctify martial Strike
VoP 8 - Sanctify Natural Attack
Lvl 9 - Shock Trooper

Here is what I have @ lvl 10 not using VoP:

Lvl 1 - Combat Reflexes
Human - ???
M1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
M1 - Power Attack
M2 - Improved Bull Rush
B1 - Toughness
Lvl 3 - Extra Rage
B2 - Improved Grapple
B3 - Great Fortitude
Lvl 6 - Leap Attack
Lvl 9 - Shock Trooper

[Gayle_Force]

Also, as far as flying goes, could the sorcerer cast fly on me? or does it have to be from an item?

[Rebel7284]

Funny thing, Dwarves do not exist in this world or at least so we believe currently. They probably did at some point but no longer (killed off?).

Interestingly, my favorite build doesn't entail being a dwarf at least at first. Typically looks something like:

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk
X 2-3/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper?Dwarf Paragon?Warblade?Finish FotF?

Maybe you can bring the dwarves back into existence in your world by channeling the dwarven ancestry on your mixed Mongrelfolk blood? Something like that? Anyway, I really like the racial +6 con which Stoneblessed bumps to +8 when it makes you a real dwarf.

[16bearswutIdo]

Also, as far as flying goes, could the sorcerer cast fly on me? or does it have to be from an item?

You're allowed to receive help from your allies. You just can't own items. Sorcerer casting fly on you would be totally legit

"But 16bearswutIdo, then you're using up an ally's spell slot!" Yeah, but spells are there to be used. Since it's a sorcerer, he'll probably have an abundance of spells.

All I'm saying is, the idea of a shapeshifting bear rage monk who has renounced his worldly possessions is badass. VoP also explicitly allows you to have "ordinary simple weapons" so just pick up a crossbow for when you're forced to use range. A Monk/Barbarian isn't going to want to do anything other than physical melee damage if he can.

[Gayle_Force]

You're allowed to receive help from your allies. You just can't own items. Sorcerer casting fly on you would be totally legit

"But 16bearswutIdo, then you're using up an ally's spell slot!" Yeah, but spells are there to be used. Since it's a sorcerer, he'll probably have an abundance of spells.

All I'm saying is, the idea of a shapeshifting bear rage monk who has renounced his worldly possessions is badass. VoP also explicitly allows you to have "ordinary simple weapons" so just pick up a crossbow for when you're forced to use range. A Monk/Barbarian isn't going to want to do anything other than physical melee damage if he can.

One idea (needing DM approval) was to go silverbrow human, take a flaw to get the dragon wings feat. It would add on improved dragonwings as a tax but I could at the very least fly above target, shapeshift-rage, and grapple them on first attack to cling to them while attacking in mid-air or plummet them to earth. If I go war-shaper later, maybe I can convince DM to let me keep wings in bear form.

All of that is subject to approval though.

[RaiKirah]

All I'm saying is, the idea of a shapeshifting bear rage monk who has renounced his worldly possessions is badass. VoP also explicitly allows you to have "ordinary simple weapons" so just pick up a crossbow for when you're forced to use range. A Monk/Barbarian isn't going to want to do anything other than physical melee damage if he can.

I'm with you there, and if your table isn't super high optimization you'll probably be fine power wise. For ranged, you might be able to qualify for Hulking Hurler (Bears are large) and then just throw the nearest thing at the pesky flying person.

[Gayle_Force]

That sounds like a decent idea, I would have to figure out how to fit in weapon focus (thrown weapon) and point blank shot

[liquidformat]

Until you need to fly. Or deal something other than physical damage. Or deal with most kinds of damage reduction. Or make a ranged attack. Or contribute at all in a way that isn't "hit things really hard/often/quickly", "make plans", "disguise self as a bear", and/or "sometimes talk/growl, but nowhere nearly as good as the party face (or just party CHA-based class) can with his magic items".

For a good analysis on why VoP sucks so badly, even (and especially) on Monks, see here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/12534/vow-of-poverty-overpowered-or-underpowered
I like how bear warrior is called out as being a specific prc for which VoP can work well for. I usually use VoP on MoMF, primeval and sometimes for druid which also follows the niche where VoP is useful according to your article, so again I am left seeing your point in this situation.

Also your argument really isn't compelling for someone going barbarian, I mean the limit of the class tends to be hit things really hard. Sure you can add on Intimidate and pretend to be the party face but lets face it you only have intimidate for bfc same reason you would do a barbarian trip build (note that taking VoP really doesn't hurt you for intimidate). Beyond that you have the trap killer afc but honestly that afc just emphasizes the 'I hint things really hard' aspect of the class. The only spot it holds water is what to do when someone is outside of melee, having a crap ranged weapon is actually a pretty standard option so there is that.

war hulk, hulking hurler, silverbrow/dragonborn are all non wbl ways to overcome this issue. In fact war hulk+hulking hurler is one of the best and most comical ways to overcome the issue. What's better then picking up a wall and dealing 1000d6 damage to everyone within an area!

[Gayle_Force]

Also going forward, i have seen a few places that Bear warrior past 5 serves little purpose. How many levels of war shaper are considered ideal? lvl 3 seems nice for reach.
If I went Monk 2/Barb 3/FoF 3/BW 5/Warshaper 3 that leaves 4 levels free. If I can fit in the feats, Hulking Hurler 1 does sound nice. What about the other 3?

I am thinking of letting lack of good ranged options be a limitation of the character. I would rather figure out creative ways of attacking flying targets (druid summons a mount for me or air drops me like a bomb) and stuff like that.

For sake of discussion, lets assume VoP is now locked in as the path I take. I am strapped for feats for requirements of other things. What are the better sacred feats to shoot for with my bonus feats? I do not think I qualify for the ki-strike feat since I am not lvl 4 monk. Is weapon focus (unarmed strikes) worth it for the sanctified martial strike feat?

I am thinking of dropping starting dex to 14 and making charisma 15 due to requirements for other feats. That would give me 22 Strength by level 20 before VoP & other increases.

Level order would be M2/B3/FoF(2 or 3?)/BW5/WS2/FoF (3 or none left) I have 5 levels left. Is more warshaper worth it? Again, approval needed, but Frost rager 5 seems cool for the rend ability. Plus the sorcerer could heal me with cone of cold.

Simply advancing monk or barbarian is another option I would consider if it is considered ideal. I look forward to the continued help from all of you!

EDIT: Just read up on the warhulk/hulking hurler synergy. They are both in approval dependent sources but with my last 5 levels what would be the appropriate level allotment? Warhulk 3/Hulking Hurler 2? Which trick to pick as HH? Overburdened Heave? Doesn't all of this assume there are rocks nearby to pick up?

[Gayle_Force]

At lvl 15 (M2/B3/FoF3/BW5/WS2) I would have a Strength of 18+2 (lvl increases)+6(VoP)+4(warshaper)+16(from Bear Warrior rage)

total STR = 46

@lvl 20 with 3 levels of War hulk it would be 54 total.

[RaiKirah]

I like 4 levels in Warshaper, though that late in the build fast healing 2 isn't that impressive I suppose. I'll defer to others on the War Hulk and Hulking Hurler, as I've never really worked with either.

[Gayle_Force]

I like 4 levels in Warshaper, though that late in the build fast healing 2 isn't that impressive I suppose. I'll defer to others on the War Hulk and Hulking Hurler, as I've never really worked with either.

I did realize upon closer inspection that I highly doubt my DM will allow War Hulk to fly. Outside source and I would be human (not large size normally). Still 2 to 3 levels of hulking hurler would be nice (the medium load throw and not sure if any others are worth it).

That leaves 3 or so levels to fill out.

[RaiKirah]

I did realize upon closer inspection that I highly doubt my DM will allow War Hulk to fly. Outside source and I would be human (not large size normally). Still 2 to 3 levels of hulking hurler would be nice (the medium load throw and not sure if any others are worth it).

That leaves 3 or so levels to fill out.

If you're concerned about qualifications due to not being large size all the time (Hulking Hurler also has this requirement) you can take the Jotunbrud feat at level 1 as a human to get Powerful Build, which lets you count as large whenever beneficial. Setting specific so talk to your DM

[liquidformat]

I did realize upon closer inspection that I highly doubt my DM will allow War Hulk to fly. Outside source and I would be human (not large size normally). Still 2 to 3 levels of hulking hurler would be nice (the medium load throw and not sure if any others are worth it).

That leaves 3 or so levels to fill out.
So the key with both hulking hurler and war hulk are being large size so you have to hit bear warrior 5 to qualify and even then if you actually qualify is kind of a gray area. Personally I think it should be allowed, I mean it isn't much cheese and though it is a power boost it isn't anything that makes a massive power difference. Be aware if you enter warhulk almost all of your skills are now useless outside of climb, jump, swim, tumble, and balance if I remember correctly.

Food for thought:
Talk to your dm and see if bear form will work with Feral trance, if so you can drop extra rage. Also between increasing Feral trance and unarmed damage FoF3 is a good level to take.

Your build synergies very well with Frost Rager and that might be an easier pill to swallow than hulking hurler/war hulk.

If you haven't already take a look at Primeval, it is a bit more of a headache to enter but primeval 1 is more powerful than bear warrior 5 and you can do some comical stuff like be a cave trex. I often enter Primeval going bear totem barb 3/ wild shape ranger 5/FoF2-3 though you could also go bear totem barb 3/ monk passive Way or Overwhelming Attack 2/FoF3 /+1 bab somewhere.

sacred feats: Nymph's kiss, Righteous Wrath, Knight of Stars (not great but ok if you have nothing else), Resounding blow, Quell the Profane, Sanctify Natural Attack, Touch of Golden Ice

[Gayle_Force]

So the key with both hulking hurler and war hulk are being large size so you have to hit bear warrior 5 to qualify and even then if you actually qualify is kind of a gray area. Personally I think it should be allowed, I mean it isn't much cheese and though it is a power boost it isn't anything that makes a massive power difference. Be aware if you enter warhulk almost all of your skills are now useless outside of climb, jump, swim, tumble, and balance if I remember correctly.

Food for thought:
Talk to your dm and see if bear form will work with Feral trance, if so you can drop extra rage. Also between increasing Feral trance and unarmed damage FoF3 is a good level to take.

Your build synergies very well with Frost Rager and that might be an easier pill to swallow than hulking hurler/war hulk.

If you haven't already take a look at Primeval, it is a bit more of a headache to enter but primeval 1 is more powerful than bear warrior 5 and you can do some comical stuff like be a cave trex. I often enter Primeval going bear totem barb 3/ wild shape ranger 5/FoF2-3 though you could also go bear totem barb 3/ monk passive Way or Overwhelming Attack 2/FoF3 /+1 bab somewhere.

sacred feats: Nymph's kiss, Righteous Wrath, Knight of Stars (not great but ok if you have nothing else), Resounding blow, Quell the Profane, Sanctify Natural Attack, Touch of Golden Ice

Nymph's kiss seemed nice (more skills yay!), but would definitely need some work with DM to figure out the details. I like righteous wrath, sanctify natural attack, and touch of golden ice and already plan on taking them. Would you say sanctify unarmed strike is not worth it due to weapon focus being a requirement?
Quell the Profane looks nice.

If my DM says feral stance works with bear warrior, then I have a few more "Rages" per day but some are better than others? I am assuming he would take issue with the large requirement. I found the Jotunborn(???) feat but it would have to be taken at lvl 1 which means flaws and while he has allowed them in the past I have a feeling that would be reaching on my end.

[Gayle_Force]

So I was looking at all ACF and feats and realized Spirit Totem: Lion and Bear Totem Barbarian both require the fast movement feature to be sacrificed.

Is it unreasonable to not gain the toughness feat and instead swap it for the Spirit Totem: Lion ability to pounce?

I know at the end of the day my DM will need to approve it but curious if it is an outrageous idea.

If it is, how can one get the pounce ability via feat or class?

[RaiKirah]

So I was looking at all ACF and feats and realized Spirit Totem: Lion and Bear Totem Barbarian both require the fast movement feature to be sacrificed.

Is it unreasonable to not gain the toughness feat and instead swap it for the Spirit Totem: Lion ability to pounce?

I know at the end of the day my DM will need to approve it but curious if it is an outrageous idea.

If it is, how can one get the pounce ability via feat or class?

Spirit Totem: Lion is one of the very best ACFs in the game. A primary melee character needs a way to move and make a full attack, and this is the easiest way to get the least restrictive pounce. The Totemist Soulmeld Sphinx Claws bound to the Hands Chakra gives you Pounce with all of your natural weapons (which as a Bear Warrior/FotF character means all of your weapons), but you need to either burn two feats on it (Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws), and Open Least Chakra (hands)), or take levels in Totemist. A 2 level dip in Totemist works great in your build, but you still need to be able to get your Least Chakra (Hands) open. You can get away without the Open Least Chakra feat if you have a spellcaster who is capable of casting the spell for you or a skillmonkey with high enough UMD to do the same. In either case it is good etiquette to buy the item/pearl of power so that your friend is not wasting their resources on you.

Basically every other way (and a lot of other cool stuff) can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement)

[liquidformat]

You can also go with primeval using an animal capable of pounce, my favorite is dire puma but dire lion and Megaraptor are also good

[Gayle_Force]

You can also go with primeval using an animal capable of pounce, my favorite is dire puma but dire lion and Megaraptor are also good

If I chose Dire Puma, I would want to name my character Warthog....

Also, what makes you like the Puma over the lion? Aesthetics?

Also, If I take Primeval, I am guessing I will want to take all 10 levels?

[liquidformat]

If I chose Dire Puma, I would want to name my character Warthog....

That seems like a reasonable concession...

[Gayle_Force]

That seems like a reasonable concession...

I was thinking of the Red vs Blue series where the Blue team mentions the Warthog jeep "looks like a big cat, like a Puma."

[liquidformat]

I was thinking of the Red vs Blue series where the Blue team mentions the Warthog jeep "looks like a big cat, like a Puma."

Oh good times, I loved that series it was so horrible it was glorious. Good old Caboose!

[Gayle_Force]

Oh good times, I loved that series it was so horrible it was glorious. Good old Caboose!

Yeah, it was pretty great.

So why do you like the Puma over Dire Lion? It seems like Puma would add more AC (due to higher Dex and Con) While Lion has higher damage (+4 Strength).

I have to say, after reading Primeval a little closer, it is head over heels better than bear warrior. Sure you lose some CHA and INT, 1 size smaller hit die and get less skill points, but everything else makes it better!

[liquidformat]

Mostly personal preference, I like the added defense as well as mobility since it is faster and can climb. The best bang for your buck is actually sabertooth tiger/smilodon from frost burn but it requires dm approval. I don't think it is unreasonable to be a sabertooth tiger I think the prc could be cleaned and enhanced if rather than capping the animal form at 8rhd instead changing it to max rhd of hd at time of class entry, but again that would be a change from how the prc is written.

I have been working on a doc to compile all the forms though it isn't finished yet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FVG3iPeUlvsB7zF09elYSwGmF5sP0h6J3ZCc2fN1mKs/edit?usp=sharing

[Gayle_Force]

Mostly personal preference, I like the added defense as well as mobility since it is faster and can climb. The best bang for your buck is actually sabertooth tiger/smilodon from frost burn but it requires dm approval. I don't think it is unreasonable to be a sabertooth tiger I think the prc could be cleaned and enhanced if rather than capping the animal form at 8rhd instead changing it to max rhd of hd at time of class entry, but again that would be a change from how the prc is written.

I have been working on a doc to compile all the forms though it isn't finished yet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FVG3iPeUlvsB7zF09elYSwGmF5sP0h6J3ZCc2fN1mKs/edit?usp=sharing

That is awesome! Thanks. It seems based on your list, the MegaRaptor is the best pouncer for damage, it also has the highest defense of the pouncers (due to FoF CON to AC). Puma seems the most versatile, being able to climb and grapple as well as have higher defense than the Dire Lion. The only thing against it is being from not a pre-approved source, but if I can get Primeval approved then Dire Puma should not be that big of a stretch.

Does the primeval movement speed increase only apply to human form? Also, am I correct in thinking the FoF movement speed increase would apply to both?

[liquidformat]

That is awesome! Thanks. It seems based on your list, the MegaRaptor is the best pouncer for damage, it also has the highest defense of the pouncers (due to FoF CON to AC). Puma seems the most versatile, being able to climb and grapple as well as have higher defense than the Dire Lion. The only thing against it is being from not a pre-approved source, but if I can get Primeval approved then Dire Puma should not be that big of a stretch.

Does the primeval movement speed increase only apply to human form? Also, am I correct in thinking the FoF movement speed increase would apply to both?

The 8th level fast movement ability only applies in human form but should stack with barbarian movement since it isn't an enhancement. In the case of Primeval I would highly suggest getting extra wild shape so you can assume primeval form more often.

Also weigh your options between M2/B3/FoF3/Fighter1/P#/WS#, M2/B4/FoF3/P#/WS#, or Wildshape Ranger5/B#/FoF#/P#/WS#

Ranger gives you endurance and wild shape which besides giving you more uses per day of primeval form also gives you mobility options in place of the power attack feat. Also in the case of primeval the third level of FoF is a little less important.

[Gayle_Force]

So I made a google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nD_4i_-p9exccwR980FyR2zMGcuANHDTkEyxwG5yO0M/edit) filling out the details of the build. Can someone let me know if it looks like my math is correct?

For feats, I went with shock trooper over leap attack or multi-attack so when I use power attack I am not losing anymore accuracy.

If math is correct, of a charge with whirling frenzy and flurry of blows, I would get 9 attacks (2 normal, 1 whirling frenzy, 1 flurry of blows, 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 rakes). I could subtract 9 from my AC to add 9 damage on each attack from Shock Trooper/Power Attack.

If I am off on something please let me know!

[liquidformat]

I can take a look after work today

[liquidformat]

So I took a quick look and you need 1 more bab to enter primeval, I would suggest going Monk 3 that gives you the extra bab +10 speed and if I remember correctly you can take Invisible Fist ACF at that level which is a cool addition to the build. Also what does WF, FS and FB stand for? Also the feral trance bite is separate from puma bite so you will get two bite attacks on full attack though the feral trance bite is set at 1d6 damage.

[Gayle_Force]

So I took a quick look and you need 1 more bab to enter primeval, I would suggest going Monk 3 that gives you the extra bab +10 speed and if I remember correctly you can take Invisible Fist ACF at that level which is a cool addition to the build. Also what does WF, FS and FB stand for? Also the feral trance bite is separate from puma bite so you will get two bite attacks on full attack though the feral trance bite is set at 1d6 damage.

Sorry about abbreviations.

WF = Whirling Frenzy
FS = Feral Stance
I couldn't find FB anywhere but it was probably a mis-type of FS.

Hmm, I see the problems with monk overall and the delayed BAB progression. I am liking the flavor of Vow of Poverty and thought with my level 1 feats spent, it would be a bit much to try and get the prereqs for FoF if I started Wild shape Ranger. I also would not get my wisdom to AC.

Invisible fist is actually 2nd level so the only bonus would be +10 Movement vs +1 Fort Save (not really needed) and +1 whirling frenzy per day.