Two weapon fighting rules and info

[Whit]

I am positive there are people on here that can do FAR better than what I can do here regarding this. I hope someone does.
There is a a lot of talk about
1. (Generic) two weapon fighting, 2. fighter (two weapon fighting) and 3. duel wielder feat and is it worth it or not.
I won’t go into the mathematics of comparing it vs GWM for dpr.
What I will do is a basic on why you might pick it and the basics of spellcasting issues.

1. Anyone class can wield a weapon in each hand.

2. Spell Caster you need a free hand to cast any spell with the (S) Somatic component. If a spell require a somatic component, the caster must have a free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures. (M) Material component requires a free hand to use materials from a component pouch or spell casting focus e.g. wand, orb etc. but it can be the same hand that uses to perform Somatic components. So both S,M can use the same one free hand. PHB pg 203

3. War-Caster feat will help get around the free hand. You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one hand or both hands. Now it doesn’t mention material, but since under PHB pg 203 material component can be used in the hand that is used to perform Somatic components, it will work for both.
Now let’s get to the following. Fighting with two weapons.
PHB pg 195 Two weapon fighting for anyone.
Attack action with a “light” melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. (PHB, p. 195)
Two weapon fighting style: Fighter and Ranger
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

Duel wielder Feat
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

Now that we have all the two weapon fighting info. Let’s go over why you might pick it.

1. You want the aesthetics of wielding two weapons and that’s it.

2. One extra attack to increase hit potential and damage. An extra bonus action attack will help trying to get a “hit” on a enemy. A paladins smite, a rogues sneak attack, any class that has an increase in Critical hits all benefit with more attack rolls such as fighter champion and Hexblade.

3. Damage. The more damage dice you can roll with that Crit, the better.
So any combination of increased critical hits 19-20 and more damage Dice like paladin smite, rogue sneak attack is fantastic nova.

4. fighter ranger two weapon style. Add your ability modifier to the bonus attack. If we say 18X with + 4 extra damage to one attack it’s not much overall when you think about it. a better option fighting style should be chosen such as defense style +1 armor class.

5. Duel Wield feat has 2 in play parts. +1 to Armor class and ability to use any two one handed weapons in both hands. 2 long swords or battle axes or war hammers or a combo of etc type.

Is duel wield feat worth it? Since you are going two weapon style and missing out on shield and armor class bonus is hard to come by, yes it is good to get. But there are many other feats that can work

Adding long sword and similar type weapons give even more asthetic but also will increase damage from most likeky 1d6 to 1d8. An average of 1-2 points more per hit. Not much once again but if your not going for the Smite sneak attack crit options, every bit can help

But ultimately it’s up to you.

I hope it helps and I hope people can add more or create a far better version

[Millstone85]

War-Caster feat will help get around the free hand. You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one hand or both hands. Now it doesn’t mention material, but since under PHB pg 203 material component can be used in the hand that is used to perform Somatic components, it will work for both.I am pretty sure you still need a free hand for M. That you got around needing a free hand for S doesn't change that.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm fairly certain part of this might have to do with my recent thread.

I do want to mention the part about Dual Wielder that you have on here. Without going on the whole spiel about my last thread,

Dual Wielder basically gives you: +1 damage, +1 AC, and the ability to draw 2 weapons in one turn where you normally can draw 1.

Improving your Dex score gives: +1 damage, +1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 to Dex skills, +1 to Dex saves.





I do want to be explicit with my message from my last thread. Even ignoring any math on heavy weapons, Dual Wielder doesn't have much of a point. You're basically selling +1 to Dex saves, skills, and initiative, for the ability to draw a second weapon.

But I meant for that to be separate from Two Weapon Fighting.

Numbers-wise, Two Weapon Fighting is generally better for Stealthy characters, where Great Weapon Fighting is still slightly better overall, but each still have their own uses and strengths.

[Whit]

“I am pretty sure you still need a free hand for M. That you got around needing a free hand for S doesn't change that.“

You could be right, which would make warcaster a horrible feat.

So I would defer to anyone who has more knowledge with any errata or sage advise

[Man_Over_Game]

“I am pretty sure you still need a free hand for M. That you got around needing a free hand for S doesn't change that.“

You could be right, which would make warcaster a horrible feat.

So I would defer to anyone who has more knowledge with any errata or sage advise

There is a question on this exact topic in RPG Stack Exchange. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/103503/does-war-caster-allow-the-use-of-two-wielded-items-and-the-use-of-your-spellcast) While it refers to the same rules that you're referring to (A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components - or to hold a spellcasting focus), it does mention a reference to a low level magic item in Xanathar's Guide to Everything which allows you to turn any weapon into a spell focus, eliminating the problem entirely.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am positive there are people on here that can do FAR better than what I can do here regarding this. I hope someone does.
There is a a lot of talk about
1. (Generic) two weapon fighting, 2. fighter (two weapon fighting) and 3. duel wielder feat and is it worth it or not. What levels do you expect to play? Will the game go to level 7? 11? 15?

[Whit]

Reply to man over game. My post is not in response to yours however you have some valid points regarding duel wield. But I would add, going duel wield is an
aesthetic option
1. Dwarf with two battle axes.
2. Elf with two long swords
Etc etc for whom ever wants it.
Yet, duel wield does not have to be a dex based, albeit in your view a better option over duel wield. If someone chooses X type armor which reduces dex modifiers such as medium or heavy armor.
A duel wield paladin or fighter in heavy armor now gets +1 ac.
A fighter champion with two long swords gets 4 attack’s and increase crit chance in 18>
Or a paladin gets 3 attack’s with possible vengeance advantage to attack’s and if hexblade increase crit chance.

By no means am I saying it’s better than GWM but for those that want to two weapon style. There’s some info on how to play it with or without duel wield feat or filling 1 lvl fighter for adding ability modifier to bonus attack or what class might benefit best with getting an extra attack.
Fighter champion.
Paladin smite
Rogue sneak attack
Etc multiclassing to get more out of it.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Whit I really get that, and I totally agree. I'm in favor of flavorful playstyles over everything else. I bring these topics up so that DMs can recognize issues with the existing system.

I think 5e is extremely fluid, and designed around players and DMs to make it their own. Homebrew decisions can be made on a dime without too many repercussions, and there are rules to support changes to the system (found in the DMG, and with minor parts all over the place).

But for DMs to make changes, they first have to know what to change. Dual Wielder, as a mechanical ability, is bad. If you're a Dex character, you're better off enhancing your Dex. If you're a Str character, you're better off going Great Weapon fighting altogether.

We can't judge the in-game powers for their creative or unorthodox uses easily, but we can judge mechanical issues with raw numbers.

And it's still a growing system. There's a new book coming out in November, which might have more spells/feats/races/classes/items that support Dual Wielder and make it worthwhile. But as of right now, it's there to look cool. And take it from a guy who almost always has Prestidigitation, looking cool is half the game.

[Millstone85]

You could be right, which would make warcaster a horrible feat.Hardly.

War Caster also gives you advantage on concentration saves, and lets you replace an opportunity attack with a spell. Since you can't sheathe a weapon as part of a reaction, using S spells would normally be difficult, but War Caster has got that covered.

Or your character could be wielding a weapon and a shield, one of which is a spellcasting focus. It is weird, but you are supposed to put the focus away to cast an S spell that isn't also an M spell. War Caster fixes that.