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death390
2018-09-19, 07:57 PM
I love the 3.5 beguiler and decided to try my hand at remaking it in 5th ed. Yes the arcane trickster is pretty close but it has no where near enough casting to be an actual beguiler,, it was a 9th level casting class not a 4th! i took the sorcerer chassis and made tweaks to that. would love feedback though.


spellcasting is pulled straight from the sorcerer block. Beguiling style replaces sorcerous origin.

1 Spellcasting, Thieves Cant, Beguiling Style
2 Expertise
3 Hidden Casting
4 Ability Score Improvement
5 —
6 Beguiling Style
7 —
8 Ability Score Improvement
9 Hidden Casting
10 Evasion
11 Expertise
12 Ability Score Improvement
13 —
14 Beguiling Style
15 Hidden Casting
16 Ability Score Improvement
17 Slippery Mind
18 Beguiling Style
19 Ability Score Improvement
20 Hidden Casting


Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per Beguiler level after 1st Proficiencies
You are proficient with the following items, in addition to any proficiencies provided by your race or background.
Armor: light armor
Weapons: simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortswords
Tools: thieves' tools
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence
Skills: Choose three from Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Deception, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.

Spellcasting
An event in your past, infused you with arcane magic. Perhaps you were a failed wizard apprentice, a bard who prefers deception to storytelling, or even a thief with who stole these magics somehow. In any case you delight is the deception and misdirection of others which reflects on your magics. You pull your spells from the sorcerer and rouge: arcane trickster spell lists but with restrictions.
You have full access to all Illusion and Enchantment spells but the rest is limited, for these they must either enhance your own abilities, stealth, or be of some kind of utility for a skulk. (DM approval right now will make actual list when able)

Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the beguiler spell list. You learn an additional beguiler cantrip of your choice at 4th level and another at 10th level. Of special note the only damaging Cantrip allowed is Poison Spray.

Spell Slots
The Beguiler table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these beguiler spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you know the 1st-level spell silent image and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast silent image using either slot.


Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the beguiler spell list.
You learn an additional beguiler spell of your choice at each level except 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 19th, and 20th. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the beguiler spells you know and replace it with another spell from the beguiler spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your beguiler spells. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your Beguiler spells.

Beguiling Style
At 1st Level pick a Beguiling Style to focus on how you will misdirect and mystify your opponents.
Your choice grants you features when you choose it at 1st level and again at 6th, 14th, and 18th level.

Expertise
At 2st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves' tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 11th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies (in skills or with thieves' tools) to gain this benefit.


Hidden Casting
As all beguilers are tricksters of some kind they learn how to take advantage of openings in opponents defenses and lapses of concentration, or even to further their skill in subtlety. To this end there are several tricks they learn to use with their spells. These effects are only applied when the target has an enemy other than yourself within 5ft and that enemy is not incapacitated, or the target has disadvantage.
At 3rd level you gain the benefits of the sorcerers Subtle Spell Metamagic on all spells removing the Verbal and Somatic Spell components.
At 9th level you gain a +2 to the spell save DC check for your spells.
At 15th when you release a spell with duration: concentration it persists for 2 rounds after it is released up to the maximum duration.
At 20th level you overcome all spell resistance.

Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
If your DM allows the use of feats, you may instead take a feat.

Evasion
Beginning at 10th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon's fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Slippery Mind
By 17th level, you have acquired greater mental strength. You gain proficiency in Wisdom saving throws.

clash
2018-09-19, 08:06 PM
I might have tried this as a sorcerer subclass first. I am not seeing much here that couldn't be in a subclass

Eragon123
2018-09-19, 08:48 PM
As much as I love the beguiler some parts of it are going to be left in 3.5.

However let's break down the principle parts.
9th level casting.
Sneaking
focus on illusion and enchantment magic
good skill ranks.

Well, suffice to say the bard covers the VAST majority of this.

Maybe a bard subclass (i know INT vs CHA but some sacrifices need to be made).
Maybe something similar to the whispers bard but more casting focused with removing verbal and somatic components.

death390
2018-09-20, 01:15 AM
As much as I love the beguiler some parts of it are going to be left in 3.5.

However let's break down the principle parts.
9th level casting.
Sneaking
focus on illusion and enchantment magic
good skill ranks.

Well, suffice to say the bard covers the VAST majority of this.

Maybe a bard subclass (i know INT vs CHA but some sacrifices need to be made).
Maybe something similar to the whispers bard but more casting focused with removing verbal and somatic components.

problem i have with bard as beguiler is that so much of that kit would need to be removed, anything song related, bardic inspiration, musical instruments as tools (need thief tools since beguier was a trapfinder/ disabler/ lockbreaker), ect. the entire point of the beguler in 3.5 was that it was a fixed list spont arcane rougue that could cast in light armor. 5e did away with arcane spell failure so that is part of its identy gone. for the rest it is straight up easier to replace sorc parts with rouge parts than it is to retool the bard for it, because there is less to remove and less to add.

similar problem with making it a sorcerous origin; it in of itself doesn't define WHY the character has magic, its not like the beguiler has a fey origin or something. its litteraly the arcane trickster rouge but more of a focus on spellcasting.

it doesn't get sneak attack but has bonuses when opponent denied dex (basically disadvantage in 5e; from fienting, or how sneak attack worked in 4.5 even) on spells.

also i don't know the int vs Cha debate can someone clue me in? it was a big part of 3.5 due to the fact that skills were more important than a couple points in diplomacy, bluff, ect. also has anyone else noticed that there are exeedingly few illusion spells?

part of the reason i plan to make an actual spell list for the class is that the bard and sorc don't even get the ONLY 9th level illusion spell (technicaly arcane trickster rouge does but never gets slots for it!). hell there isn't even a single 8th level illusion spell, AND there is only 1 6th! tack on the fact that things like color spray (a once staple spell) has now become basically useless (woo blinded woop de doo, used to cause unconsciousness, blind, and stun for low power creatures, and even with high power creatures it at least sunned for 1 round! AND its hit point based LOWEST FIRST!!! WTF)

i later plan to generate a couple archetypes for this, (probably mindbender, and Shadowcrafter since those have no home yet and were staple beguiler PrCs) but i just want to make sure the general chassis is ok first.

Zanthy1
2018-09-20, 06:54 AM
I do not think this should be an INT casting class. If it is all about deception and trickery, CHA seems obvious. While I do see why you want another INT option, considering how few there are and how many CHA there are, but it just doesn't make sense for a character who is essentially Marvel's version of Loki to be an INT caster over a CHA caster. (Not saying Tom Hiddleston's Loki isn't smart, but gosh darn it he is an eloquent speaker, convincing and oh so beautiful).

clash
2018-09-20, 11:27 AM
I still think you could achieve 90% of what you want as a sorcerer subclass. This is just something I threw together in a few minutes.

Blood of the Trickster
1 Trickster Magic:
When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcerer cantrip or a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose any spell from the schools of illusion or enchantment regardless of whether it is normally on your sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.
In addition, choose either the command spell or silent image spell. You gain the spell chosen as a spell known. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known. At higher levels you may replace this spell with another spell from either the enchantment or illusion schools.
1 Bonus Proficiencies:
You gain proficiency light armor and in thieves tools, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any checks you make with the thieves tools.
6 Hidden Casting:
Whenever you cast a spell against a creature you are hidden from they have disadvantage on the saving throw.
14 Evasion:
18 Persistent magic:
Whenever you cast a spell that requires concentration you can expend 2 sorcery points to cast it without requiring concentration. You can only have one persistent spell active at a time. If you cast another spell using this feature the previous spell ends as if you had lost concentration on it.

Sorcerer is built with a very loose theme in my opinion and anything that uses metamgic type effects is a good fit for it. I just dont think there is enough that is mechanically unique about the beguiler to afford it it's own class.

Eragon123
2018-09-20, 12:26 PM
I still think you could achieve 90% of what you want as a sorcerer subclass. This is just something I threw together in a few minutes.

Blood of the Trickster
1 Trickster Magic:
When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcerer cantrip or a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose any spell from the schools of illusion or enchantment regardless of whether it is normally on your sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.
In addition, choose either the command spell or silent image spell. You gain the spell chosen as a spell known. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known. At higher levels you may replace this spell with another spell from either the enchantment or illusion schools.


This is good start.



1 Bonus Proficiencies:
You gain proficiency light armor and in thieves tools, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any checks you make with the thieves tools.


At first I was a little worried about the expertise but the fact that it is limited is good.



6 Hidden Casting:
Whenever you cast a spell against a creature you are hidden from they have disadvantage on the saving throw.


On one hand this come before the Arcane Trickster gets it. But on the other hand, Rogues can hide with much better efficiency action economy wise.



14 Evasion:


3.5 Beguilers did not get Evasion and Sorcerers do not have proficiency in Dexterity Saving Throws. I'd start there and leave the evasion for other classes. I'd almost rather a smaller cunning action here for hiding as a bonus action.



18 Persistent magic:
Whenever you cast a spell that requires concentration you can expend 2 sorcery points to cast it without requiring concentration. You can only have one persistent spell active at a time. If you cast another spell using this feature the previous spell ends as if you had lost concentration on it.


Hoo boy this is a good feature but Sorcerer's generally do get really good features at this level and the restrictions are reasonable. Though an Illusory Dragon casted with Persistent Magic... especially since the sorcerer could also do an extend spell for little investment or risk... sounds like fun.

Overall I think this is a good start.

death390
2018-09-20, 02:46 PM
the reason the class is INT casting is because that is what it was in 3.5. "To cast a beguiler spell, you must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). "


hidden casting is supposed to be a sneak attack replacement if you actually look at it,

as pulled from beguiler and rouge specifically:

"Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. You gain a +1 bonus to the spell's save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)."


whereas rouges sneak attack
"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. "

the only difference in use is what is actually changed (damage on attacks vs effects on spells) and the fact that the rouge gets SA from flanking.

the other things that the beguiler had in 3.5 include
armored casting, decent weapon skills, 6+int skills: huge list of class skills, trapfinding, silent spell, still spell, advanced learning (extra ench/illu spells not already on fixed list), supprise casting (fienting affects spells, then can do so as a move action).

armored casting is not a given for anyone in 5e
better weapon skills and theives tools can be done by just giving them.
6+int = ~3 proficiencies (and expertise) not to mention the massive list of class skills.
silent spell still spell = subtle metamagic
advanced learning can be turned into pick a spell instead of a fixed list
wrap suprise casting into hidden casting feature.


I still think you could achieve 90% of what you want as a sorcerer subclass. This is just something I threw together in a few minutes.

Blood of the Trickster
1 Trickster Magic:
When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcerer cantrip or a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose any spell from the schools of illusion or enchantment regardless of whether it is normally on your sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.
In addition, choose either the command spell or silent image spell. You gain the spell chosen as a spell known. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known. At higher levels you may replace this spell with another spell from either the enchantment or illusion schools.
1 Bonus Proficiencies:
You gain proficiency light armor and in thieves tools, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any checks you make with the thieves tools.
6 Hidden Casting:
Whenever you cast a spell against a creature you are hidden from they have disadvantage on the saving throw.
14 Evasion:
18 Persistent magic:
Whenever you cast a spell that requires concentration you can expend 2 sorcery points to cast it without requiring concentration. You can only have one persistent spell active at a time. If you cast another spell using this feature the previous spell ends as if you had lost concentration on it.

Sorcerer is built with a very loose theme in my opinion and anything that uses metamgic type effects is a good fit for it. I just dont think there is enough that is mechanically unique about the beguiler to afford it it's own class.


blood of the trickster: as written doesn't really help since sorc only get 1/2 the illusion spells for example and you have to use your REPLACEMENT to do so (better just to make a new list or allow full access)
bonus proficiency: kind of works but your also forcing thieves tools expertiese AND you don't get to even pick a majority of the rouge type skills (stealth, acrobatics, athletics, sleight of hand, ect)
Hidden casting: kinda of works like a DC increase but doesn't address the SR bit
Evasion: i gave beguiler evasion due to the fact that it doesn't get trapfinding (since everyone can find traps), not to mention @ lvl 14 its super late to get this.
Persistant spell: again something given to replace a feature that was folded into all kits (armored casting) but not necessary. heck it as written isn't even much of a capstone since it requires an action to do most things with a concentration spell.

clash
2018-09-20, 03:08 PM
blood of the trickster: as written doesn't really help since sorc only get 1/2 the illusion spells for example and you have to use your REPLACEMENT to do so (better just to make a new list or allow full access)
bonus proficiency: kind of works but your also forcing thieves tools expertise AND you don't get to even pick a majority of the rouge type skills (stealth, acrobatics, athletics, sleight of hand, ect)
Hidden casting: kinda of works like a DC increase but doesn't address the SR bit
Evasion: i gave beguiler evasion due to the fact that it doesn't get trapfinding (since everyone can find traps), not to mention @ lvl 14 its super late to get this.
Persistant spell: again something given to replace a feature that was folded into all kits (armored casting) but not necessary. heck it as written isn't even much of a capstone since it requires an action to do most things with a concentration spell.

I am not sure you understand 5th edition spellcasting.

Trickster Magic explicitly lets you pick any illusion or enchantment spell in the game when learning a new spells starting at level 1, that effectively changes the sorcerer spell list to include them all and gives you a bonus one immediately.
5e has gotten rid of flat numerical increases to be replaced with advantage/disadvantage mechanics. Spell resistance inst even a thing in 5e. What you can have is resistance to damage types which results in half damage but that wont apply to most illusion or enchantment spells as they dont do damage. Some creature have advantage on saving throws against magic but the disadvantage from hidden casting essentially negates that.
Sorcerer can already get the roguish skills from their background and if you wanted a more freeform expertise it could instead take the place of evasion but would come online late. I agree that ic ould probably be swapped out for hiding as a bonus action instead.
And 99% of enchantment and illusion spells require concentration. They dont require an action to maintain but you can lose the spell by taking damage and you cannot have 2 concentration spells active at the same time. Which means if you cant cast silent image and then cast Suggestion as suggestion breaks your concentration on the first spell. This ability bypasses all of those restrictions for a cheap cost. It is the only ability that lets you bypass it as the next closest thing is twin spell metamagic also in the sorcerer.

Everything else outside of the metamagic effects is basically a bard in 5e.