Taking a feat at high level

[Pex]

Assumption: You start the game at level 1 or 3. The campaign will reach level 20.

My opinion at the moment is if you haven't taken the feat(s) you want by 8th level it's not worth taking at 12th and above. Maybe the rogue could take one at 10. If the feat was important to you, you would have taken it already by the late game. I could see maybe taking Tough, Lucky, or Resilient late because they provide a nice boost, but if you're thinking of taking a feat at level 12 you were doing fine without it for the previous 11 levels. Why is 12th level the time to take it or 16th or 19th? I'm not convinced getting your prime to 20 was worth the priority because of Bounded Accuracy. Getting 20 is great, but I mean if you really wanted the feat you don't need to get to 20 first. 18 is enough. You could get to 18 at 4th level then the feat at 8 or feat at 4th and 18 at 8th. If you took a feat at both 4 and 8 then at 12th level you need that 18. At 16th level now you're going to take Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter or Sentinel?

Who would take a feat at level 12 or above? Why? Does it depend on the feat? Is it only worth it for Tough, Lucky, or Resilient? The half feats maybe? Are the half feat abilities worth taking at high level instead of +2 to a score or +1/+1?

[Aaron Underhand]

Assumption: You start the game at level 1 or 3. The campaign will reach level 20.

My opinion at the moment is if you haven't taken the feat(s) you want by 8th level it's not worth taking at 12th and above. Maybe the rogue could take one at 10. If the feat was important to you, you would have taken it already by the late game. I could see maybe taking Tough, Lucky, or Resilient late because they provide a nice boost, but if you're thinking of taking a feat at level 12 you were doing fine without it for the previous 11 levels
My bard may well take MI warlock at 12th for Eldritch blast and hex once/day. Nice boost now it's three beams, not worth it before 11th

[LudicSavant]

Assumption: You start the game at level 1 or 3. The campaign will reach level 20.

My opinion at the moment is if you haven't taken the feat(s) you want by 8th level it's not worth taking at 12th and above. Maybe the rogue could take one at 10. If the feat was important to you, you would have taken it already by the late game. I could see maybe taking Tough, Lucky, or Resilient late because they provide a nice boost, but if you're thinking of taking a feat at level 12 you were doing fine without it for the previous 11 levels. Why is 12th level the time to take it or 16th or 19th? I'm not convinced getting your prime to 20 was worth the priority because of Bounded Accuracy. Getting 20 is great, but I mean if you really wanted the feat you don't need to get to 20 first. 18 is enough. You could get to 18 at 4th level then the feat at 8 or feat at 4th and 18 at 8th. If you took a feat at both 4 and 8 then at 12th level you need that 18. At 16th level now you're going to take Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter or Sentinel?

Who would take a feat at level 12 or above? Why? Does it depend on the feat? Is it only worth it for Tough, Lucky, or Resilient? The half feats maybe? Are the half feat abilities worth taking at high level instead of +2 to a score or +1/+1?

That strikes me as backwards. The higher level you are, the more likely you've maxed your main stat, and therefore ASIs are less competitive compared to feats, rather than more. Feats also tend to scale their benefits more with level (for example, Resilient scales its bonus with your Proficiency bonus, while a +2 ASI will always be +1 to a save).

[Naanomi]

Depends a lot on the character; if you have 4-5 feats you are vaguely interested in then some will have to wait. Lots of feats can give a little boost without being central to the concept (sentinel on a melee Rogue for example) to just pick up when every other option you really wanted is gotten. Often better than just +2 CON/whatever

[TWrecks]

Ya, seems like a little too binary, Black / white of an approach...

Some classes get more or less feats which change the weighting’s , some feats work in conjunction like pole arm master / sentinel but may wait for an ASI, multiple odd ability stats can often make ASIs needed first, and for ranged casters spell DC save is what you live and die by so ASI usually comes first.

It really just depends on what you’re trying to do with your build and what class / stats you’re dealing with.

[CTurbo]

Lucky, Resilient, Alert, Mobile, Tough, Magic Initiate, and Ritual Caster are all great late feat picks that would make any character better.

Res is often taken early too, and I've seen popular choices like GWM and Sentinel taken late.

Dual Wielder is another decent late pick for TWFs once attack stat is maxed.



With me, maxing my main stat is always important and I never take more than one feat before doing so. If I'm playing a MAD class like Monk or Paladin, I may not take a feat at all if it's not to start with Vhuman unless I've rolled for stats and got a decent spread.

[Pex]

Spellcasters are an interesting case. I can see wanting to get 20 as early as possible. DC is important. Ok, 16 at first level, 18 at 4th level, 20 at 8th level.If 17 at first a half feat can be there. What feat at 12th level would you take you were able to live without before then? Why not +2 DX for the AC? Tough is better than +2 CO if you want the hit points, but the +1 to Concentration is tempting. Resilient CO or War Caster are good. Any other feat that's interesting instead?

Now you're 16th level, what feat then?

Magic Initiate Eldritch Blast is interesting, but why didn't you need the range attack for the first 11 levels? It's better damage for you than a bow at this point, yes, but I doubt that's what you were using a lot. Non-bards have good enough cantrips. A bard could have picked it up with magical secrets or otherwise was getting along fine without it.

Maybe I'm not bringing forth my feeling on the matter clearly into words. Perhaps an analogy. One criticism against the Battle Master is that he doesn't get access to more powerful maneuvers at higher levels. When he gets access to new maneuvers his choices are from the ones he didn't want at level 3. When he's 15th level he's not getting a 15th level ability. He's getting a 3rd level ability he hadn't wanted for 11 levels already. In regards to feats, taking one at 16th level is not giving you a 16th level worthy ability. It's giving you something you hadn't wanted for 15 levels beforehand, counting variant human.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm just not seeing the value in my view as you are. I can only see Resilient, Lucky, or Tough as maybe worth it.

[Citan]

Assumption: You start the game at level 1 or 3. The campaign will reach level 20.

My opinion at the moment is if you haven't taken the feat(s) you want by 8th level it's not worth taking at 12th and above. Maybe the rogue could take one at 10. If the feat was important to you, you would have taken it already by the late game. I could see maybe taking Tough, Lucky, or Resilient late because they provide a nice boost, but if you're thinking of taking a feat at level 12 you were doing fine without it for the previous 11 levels. Why is 12th level the time to take it or 16th or 19th? I'm not convinced getting your prime to 20 was worth the priority because of Bounded Accuracy. Getting 20 is great, but I mean if you really wanted the feat you don't need to get to 20 first. 18 is enough. You could get to 18 at 4th level then the feat at 8 or feat at 4th and 18 at 8th. If you took a feat at both 4 and 8 then at 12th level you need that 18. At 16th level now you're going to take Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter or Sentinel?

Who would take a feat at level 12 or above? Why? Does it depend on the feat? Is it only worth it for Tough, Lucky, or Resilient? The half feats maybe? Are the half feat abilities worth taking at high level instead of +2 to a score or +1/+1?
Hi!

I would tend to agree with you on the first bolded part: if some feat is central to your character concept, take it at 4th most. Otherwise in most campaigns you won't get to enjoy it for long (if any).

But that is completely orthogonal to the evolutive value of feats.

Among those that range from "near worthless to decent" taken at 1st (Variant) while ranging from "good to great" at level 16...

Spell Sniper
This feat has two uses: for a caster, it can be worth taken early because/if the cast plans on using slotted attack spells regularly. That's imx not the main reason.
The main reason is for any character that wants a particular trick (*cough* Whip Booming Blade *cough*) or just get a good (usually ranged) attack.
Read: Shocking Grasp / Firebolt for INT, Thorns Whip for WIS, Eldricht Blast for CHA.
Before level 5, no cantrip is worth Spell Sniper except very, very niche builds for niche campaigns.
Before level 11, no cantrip makes Spell Sniper worth more than more important/core ASI/feats (Sentinel/GWM/Pam/+2attack for a martial, Warcaster/Resilient:CON/+2mental for a caster), unless you don't care about / don't need those "classic optimizations".
At level 12 though? Now those cantrips pack enough punch for it to be worth.

Defensive Duelist
Obviously, because it uses your reaction, it's not for *everybody*, although everybody can technically use it (just grab a dagger off-hand, even if you don't plan on dual-wielding).
Taken at level 1-4? It's grossly mediocre compared to mostly any other feat (except Charger XD).
Taken at level 16? It's a free +5 against one attack, that is bound to come handy for everyone that wants to have a safe side.
Even characters who get Shield would benefit much from it actually, like Wizards. Unless you are sure you'll manage up to level 18, since you usually aren't looking for hurt in the first place, the situations when you are threatened by only one or two attacks in a round should not be too rare. For those instances, DD can be a better choice than Shield as far as threat-to-resource ratio goes.
In fact, imo the sweet spot for that feat is level 8, when you don't expect your character to get beyond level 15-16 or so.
Before, it's not enough and you have other priorities. In the late levels, creatures hit so hard it won't make a difference often enough (plus most classes should have interesting uses of reactions by that time).

Conversely, reverse is true. Some feats are better taken early than late.
Thinking about Heavy Armor Master in particular: at low levels it will save your life often. At level 20 while it would still amount to a big number of HP "protected", it will rarely decide whether you drop or not in a particular fight. Because the ratio "damage averted/hit" has become far too low.

There is also the Ritual Caster feat: you could of course consider that it's better to take it later so you can learn more spells at once, and have more resources/network to find them.
But so many of them are so useful at making adventuring easier and safer, while casters get so many high-level spells that trump those rituals later, that unless there is no caster in party it would be kinda a waste in potential imo (plus at late levels, you should have enough reputation and resources to hire caster NPCs / followers in the first place).

[KorvinStarmast]

Adding another save proficiency at higher levels is a good idea, if you have not already done so. Higher DC's from higher NPC spell casters and monsters.

Resilient.

Lucky is good at any level.

For a spell caster, that elemental feat: overwrite monster resistances to a magical attack. Handy. A bigger problem at higher levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You might not have needed the feat earlier in your build, but if you've already maxed your key stat(s), why not take a feat? Which is more interesting-- +2 to a tertiary stat, or Actor? You're not getting as many new and interesting features through your class levels, so you might as well pick up something weak-but-fun now.

[Pex]

Hi!

I would tend to agree with you on the first bolded part: if some feat is central to your character concept, take it at 4th most. Otherwise in most campaigns you won't get to enjoy it for long (if any).

But that is completely orthogonal to the evolutive value of feats.

Among those that range from "near worthless to decent" taken at 1st (Variant) while ranging from "good to great" at level 16...

Spell Sniper
This feat has two uses: for a caster, it can be worth taken early because/if the cast plans on using slotted attack spells regularly. That's imx not the main reason.
The main reason is for any character that wants a particular trick (*cough* Whip Booming Blade *cough*) or just get a good (usually ranged) attack.
Read: Shocking Grasp / Firebolt for INT, Thorns Whip for WIS, Eldricht Blast for CHA.
Before level 5, no cantrip is worth Spell Sniper except very, very niche builds for niche campaigns.
Before level 11, no cantrip makes Spell Sniper worth more than more important/core ASI/feats (Sentinel/GWM/Pam/+2attack for a martial, Warcaster/Resilient:CON/+2mental for a caster), unless you don't care about / don't need those "classic optimizations".
At level 12 though? Now those cantrips pack enough punch for it to be worth.

I can see the strategy.


Defensive Duelist
Obviously, because it uses your reaction, it's not for *everybody*, although everybody can technically use it (just grab a dagger off-hand, even if you don't plan on dual-wielding).
Taken at level 1-4? It's grossly mediocre compared to mostly any other feat (except Charger XD).
Taken at level 16? It's a free +5 against one attack, that is bound to come handy for everyone that wants to have a safe side.
Even characters who get Shield would benefit much from it actually, like Wizards. Unless you are sure you'll manage up to level 18, since you usually aren't looking for hurt in the first place, the situations when you are threatened by only one or two attacks in a round should not be too rare. For those instances, DD can be a better choice than Shield as far as threat-to-resource ratio goes.
In fact, imo the sweet spot for that feat is level 8, when you don't expect your character to get beyond level 15-16 or so.
Before, it's not enough and you have other priorities. In the late levels, creatures hit so hard it won't make a difference often enough (plus most classes should have interesting uses of reactions by that time).

Fair enough. As a spellcaster I'd still probably prefer Shield (call it different taste), but if a warrior is inclined ok.



Adding another save proficiency at higher levels is a good idea, if you have not already done so. Higher DC's from higher NPC spell casters and monsters.

Resilient.

Lucky is good at any level.

For a spell caster, that elemental feat: overwrite monster resistances to a magical attack. Handy. A bigger problem at higher levels.

That's a good one. Damage spells are relevant, but you may not want to prepare so many of different damage types. I had viewed this feat as something you take early if it matters for you, but I can see waiting to see if you really need it and if you do you really do.


You might not have needed the feat earlier in your build, but if you've already maxed your key stat(s), why not take a feat? Which is more interesting-- +2 to a tertiary stat, or Actor? You're not getting as many new and interesting features through your class levels, so you might as well pick up something weak-but-fun now.

Fair point.

[Crgaston]

Spellcasters are an interesting case. I can see wanting to get 20 as early as possible. DC is important. Ok, 16 at first level, 18 at 4th level, 20 at 8th level.If 17 at first a half feat can be there. What feat at 12th level would you take you were able to live without before then? Why not +2 DX for the AC? Tough is better than +2 CO if you want the hit points, but the +1 to Concentration is tempting. Resilient CO or War Caster are good. Any other feat that's interesting instead?

Now you're 16th level, what feat then?

Magic Initiate Eldritch Blast is interesting, but why didn't you need the range attack for the first 11 levels? It's better damage for you than a bow at this point, yes, but I doubt that's what you were using a lot. Non-bards have good enough cantrips. A bard could have picked it up with magical secrets or otherwise was getting along fine without it.

Maybe I'm not bringing forth my feeling on the matter clearly into words. Perhaps an analogy. One criticism against the Battle Master is that he doesn't get access to more powerful maneuvers at higher levels. When he gets access to new maneuvers his choices are from the ones he didn't want at level 3. When he's 15th level he's not getting a 15th level ability. He's getting a 3rd level ability he hadn't wanted for 11 levels already. In regards to feats, taking one at 16th level is not giving you a 16th level worthy ability. It's giving you something you hadn't wanted for 15 levels beforehand, counting variant human.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm just not seeing the value in my view as you are. I can only see Resilient, Lucky, or Tough as maybe worth it.

Do you feel like some feats should be gated by level? That there should be Feat Tiers, so to speak?

With regard to your analogy, while I agree that it would be cool if more powerful BM maneuvers unlocked at higher levels, the argument that 'the only thing you are getting is something you didn't already want' has never made sense to me. I DO want more than just 3. Or even 5. Not to mention that the number and size of Superiority Dice increase as well, so that would have to be taken into account in designing higher level maneuvers.

The same holds true for feats. It's not that I didn't want it at L4 or 6 or 8 or whatever, it's that I prioritized other choices. If we extend the argument, why multiclass? Why take abilities that you clearly didn't want at first level? It's about broadening your skill set.

On to L12/16 Feats...

Inspiring Leader is another example of a good late-game feat. On a variant Human, as an extreme example, up to 6x17 THP/SR at L12 is a lot more attractive than up to 6x4 at 1st or 6x7 at 4th. Especially for Bards, whose uses of Inspiration are tied to Charisma.

Alert has good late value since the harder enemies hit, the more valuable beating them to the punch becomes, not to mention negating Surprise. Also for the fact that Unseen foes don't get advantage. I surmise most characters would be facing more invisible foes at higher levels rather than lower.

Mobile becomes more valuable because higher level foes may have stronger Opportunity Attacks, faster speeds, and more ways to generate difficult terrain.

The Healer feat adds 1d6+4 plus the target's max HD. So instead of 1d6+5 on your 1st level party members, it's 1d6+20 at 16th. Which isn't necessarily a larger percentage, but maybe your Cleric died and the player rolled up a Barbarian? And wouldn't you rather have your Cleric burning spell slots on non-healing spells anyway?

Skilled would grant +4-5 to 3 skills instead of +2-3. Same with Prodigy. It's a bigger bump the later you take it.

Observant is ALWAYS good, but there are usually other things which need to be maxed first.

HAM is highly underrated at higher levels because many higher level monsters do more damage by using multiple attacks. Soaking 9hp per round from a claw/claw/bite routine is not chump change. And if you're, say, a Life Cleric who started with 14/16/16 in Str/Con/Wis who finds a set of magic plate mail, it even gives you the +1 Str so your speed isn't affected.

Even Weapon Master starts to look less terrible if you've found a nifty magic weapon that you couldn't use otherwise (ok, now I am reaching).

[Sigreid]

Once you get your attributes where you need them and your core feats, why wouldn't you take feats at higher levels to round out the character rather than just focusing on optimization. Linguist and actor come to mind as feats that aren't usually going to be high on the priority list.

[Pex]

Do you feel like some feats should be gated by level? That there should be Feat Tiers, so to speak?


I want my perspective to change because I'm not happy with myself that I have it. I came to that realization when discussing character build theory with a friend and recommended not taking feats after 8th level. I want to see what others see when level 12/16 comes around and they're happy to take a feat.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Another feat that becomes more (situationally) useful at higher levels is Savage Attacker. It's usually regarded as an underpowered feat; it only allows weapon damage dice to be re-rolled, so (unless house-ruled) it does nothing for damage dice from smites, sneak attacks, etc. However, for a Barbarian of 9th level or higher with the Brutal Critical class feature, Savage Attacker starts looking a lot better; they get extra weapon damage dice on critical hits. I'd have no problem taking this feat at 12th level or higher and using it to roll damage on my critical hits twice, taking the higher total. It's even better for half-orc barbarians.

[Zalabim]

Another feat that becomes more (situationally) useful at higher levels is Savage Attacker. It's usually regarded as an underpowered feat; it only allows weapon damage dice to be re-rolled, so (unless house-ruled) it does nothing for damage dice from smites, sneak attacks, etc. However, for a Barbarian of 9th level or higher with the Brutal Critical class feature, Savage Attacker starts looking a lot better; they get extra weapon damage dice on critical hits. I'd have no problem taking this feat at 12th level or higher and using it to roll damage on my critical hits twice, taking the higher total. It's even better for half-orc barbarians.

It is also once per turn, so you get to use it again if you're coming up with a way to consistently make another attack with your retaliation reaction.

[JakOfAllTirades]

It is also once per turn, so you get to use it again if you're coming up with a way to consistently make another attack with your retaliation reaction.

Good catch there.

[Beelzebubba]

I want my perspective to change because I'm not happy with myself that I have it. I came to that realization when discussing character build theory with a friend and recommended not taking feats after 8th level. I want to see what others see when level 12/16 comes around and they're happy to take a feat.

Every time I've gotten to a level that gives me a feat, it turns out the game and the character have pushed me into something I hadn't anticipated and I end up getting something else.

RE my Druid - at 4th, instead of getting 18 WIS and 17 CON, I took Resilient CON, due to a bunch of encounters with disease, poison, and failing concentration checks. I now have a third strong save, CON 17, WIS 17, and will get 18's in both at 8th. 12th level I'll almost certainly go WIS 20.

If we make it to 16th, what's worth it? 20 CON? 18 DEX?
War Caster could be huge to keep control of conjured elementals.
Alert could be huge for battlefield control spells.
Tough on top of an 18 CON could give me a lot of survivability.

But, I might just have a bit of fun and get something else wild to enable some character development. Like:
Magic Initiate: Sorcerer - to get Mold Earth, Control Flame, and Mage Armor - to signify him becoming more 'one' with nature, gaining some RP magic, and ditching physical armor.

I mean, it's not like high level spell casters are struggling for things to do. I think it's more about what is most fun, and I could even see getting Skilled to pick up Acrobatics, Athletics, and Arcana to show personal development through the rigors of adventuring. The 'but they have a spell for that' crowd keeps forgetting that making a skill roll gives me one more spell to work with.

[djreynolds]

Mage slayer is good at higher rounds where many creatures and foes can cast magic and you're a tank who needs help with saves....also good for an archer who is facing enemy casters and wants to break the concentration (no range requirement)

I agree with stuff like mobile, after 11th level a fighter may want to take a peak at it now with 3 attacks

Magic initiate (cleric for bless or protection from evil) for a fighter is a nice grab past 12th, because the cleric may not even prepare bless anymore and GWM/SS are still your bag, and at higher levels you may need protection from evil even more, lasts 10 minutes for that big fight

Defensive duelist is a nice pick up also

For a bard, I like spell sniper/magic initiate, for cantrips

Alert, because no one likes being assassinated

[Talyn]

As people have mentioned before, Mage Slayer and Lucky are both fantastic picks at high level. I wouldn't say no to a Resilient (in whichever of DEX, WIS or CON you don't already have), since major save-or-suck effects become more prevalent at the highest levels.

[Teulisch]

if your doing point buy, a monk NEEDS to get his dex and wis to 20 as soon as he can, because every +2 stat is +1 AC. with 16 in dex and wis at level 1, thats 4 ASI, and the 5th is at level 19. (or 16 monk, 4 something else)

that said, you can sometimes get training in feats as a reward, so it is possible to get feats outside of ASI from level progression. and past level 20, you can get epic boons which can be feats as well. look in the DMG, after the magic items, under marks of prestige.

[dragoeniex]

I've got a half-elf lv 11 whispers bard/1 hexblade warlock who will be grabbing a feat at both lv 12 and 16 bard. Our game started at lv 5, and having rolled an 18, I started with 20 charisma. Still took the retroactive lv 4 as an ASI because I wanted to round my dex to 16 and wisdom to 14. And there wasn't much helping the 3 strength.

I took the tough feat at lv 8 to help with survivability and the option to visit front lines. Concentration saves are pretty low for me, but the +1 to them wasn't going to be worth as much as the extra health.

Now, thanks to me having fun with psychic blades (whispers bard ability to apply scaling psychic damage to weapons by burning inspiration), I'm working toward crossbow expert next lv and war caster eventually. This will fit with the hexblade dip to make the hand crossbow a charisma weapon for me, give me 2 shots a round if desired, eliminate close-range disadvantage, and more opportunity to spam psychic blades. Plus a 1/short rest ability to hex a target and get a bonus to damage and 2x odds of crits.

This is all setup for when, at 14 bard, I will use magical secrets to grab Tenser's transformation. Then I will have 3 hand crossbow shots at advantage per round at 1d6 pierce + 2d12 force + 5 or 10 mod (depending if target is hexed) apiece, as well as option to apply 5 or 8d6 psychic damage by burning inspiration.

The crits are going to be amazing. <3 It's taking time to build up to, but I've got plenty of fun tools to be using meanwhile.

Moral of the story: with magical secrets, I think bards are casters who have great incentive to think about feats later on and see what synergy they can get going with their cherry picked spells. Someone who grabs find greater steed may want mounted combatant for their war pegasus, etc.

[Laserlight]

I tend to prefer to get the feats in first, because they give you more options and define the character. You will operate differently if you have Spell Sniper / Booming Blade rather than Sentinel or PAM, for example; whereas if you have DEX 20, you'll do exactly the same stuff you'd have done with DEX 18, except 5% better. Save the stat increases until later.

[Pex]

If you are lucky in dice rolling ability scores it makes sense to take a feat instead of+2 to your fourth important stat you never really need except for a saving throw. Even if your prime isn't 20 you had it at 18 since level 1 so you're used to it. If it's not 20 by level 12 and especially level 16 then that wasn't important enough for you to have already so no harm waiting longer.

[djreynolds]

I really guess it depends on what you want feats for

Somewhere around 8th level, for me, fighters get boring. Example, everyone is standing around the corpse that must've fell into the trap, wondering was what did this poor fellow in: the spikes, the poison, the rats gnawing on the corpse, perhaps he was shoved in.... and I'm pulling security.

Even with the skilled feat, my wisdom, intelligence, and charisma abilities are sitting around 10-14 at the most. But it shows where my fighter wants to be more than a meat shield and contribute.

A really liked those UA feats for skills that netted you expertise in something

The game should take a turn in this direction, where situations are often too dangerous now and kicking in doors and asking questions later can be deadly.

So, this is where stuff like even ritual caster becomes a nice feat to snag as it allows you to contribute and takes the pressure off non-wizard casters to have stuff always prepared.

So ask yourself in which of the 3 game pillars are you lacking. It doesn't always have to be a combat related feat.

Skilled, ritual caster, dungeon delver can open up opportunities for you