Base Class advice for PrC

[Aleolus]

Hello all. I have a character build in mind for a future (yet to be determined) campaign, and while I know the overall image I want for them, and the Prestige class I want them to go into, I have a couple options for base class to go into it, and I am looking for some advice regarding which would be better.

Basically, I am wanting to play the archetypal 'Evil Mind Controller', and so obviously I will be going into the Mindbender PrC in Complete Arcane. I will definitively be taking Practiced Spellcaster to counteract 4 of the 5 lost caster levels that Mindbender gives. But I am not sure if I should qualify for Mindbender as an Enchanter, or a Beguiler.

If I go with Enchanter, I will have a wider range of spells available to me (Enchantment specialist, prohibited probably Necromancy and Evocation (only keeping Conjuration so I can have access to the Teleport spells), and will also be taking at least two levels in Master Specialist for the Minor School Esoterica, removing any bonuses my targets may get against my spells for me making them do things they normally wouldn't, but I need to actually prepare spells ahead of time, and as such have very limited access to any one particular spell. Added in is the fact that my combat ability will be limited at best, due to the Wizard limitations, combined with lacking Evocation spells. Level 20 build for this route would end up as Enchanter 8/Master Specialist 2/Mindbender 10

If I go with Beguiler, however, I have far wider access to my charm, suggestion and dominate abilities, as well as better combat utility, and the Cloaked Casting ability, allowing people who are flat-footed against my spells to have a harder time resisting them. But I loose access to any kind of spell other than Enchantment, Illusion and a small number of Divinations, meaning Teleport and similar are permanently out of reach without a staff or similar. My final build for this route would simply be Beguiler 10/Mindbender 10

As for why I have been specifying Teleport,since all of my evil characters have a goal in mind, this one has the goal of being in a "Position of significant influence" in numerous different kingdoms and places of power. He doesn't want to rule any of them, but he does want to have influence over the one who rules, since they are the ones with the real power. Having the ability to Teleport would greatly facilitate traveling between those different locations once that goal is accomplished

[Telonius]

Does your DM have a houserule that requires you to finish the whole Prestige Class? Beguiler19/Mindbender1 would be more powerful, and better at being an Evil Mind Controller, than Beguiler10/Mindbender10. (Similarly, Enchanter17/Master Specialist2/Mindbender1 would be better at what you're trying for than taking the full 10 levels of Mindbender). Spell levels are extremely powerful, and Mindbender just doesn't give you anything close to the 5 caster levels you lose. As a 1-level dip, it's extremely useful (particularly if you're using the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness). A single-level dip in Mindbender is actually recommended for Beguiler, since it can push off your "Advanced Learning" spell to a higher level, if you take the first level of the PrC at 6.

[Nifft]

Yeah, agree about taking less Mindbender.

One great evil mastermind which can take the whole PrC is Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10, and that even comes with disposable mind-bent minions as a class feature.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Does your DM have a houserule that requires you to finish the whole Prestige Class? Beguiler19/Mindbender1 would be more powerful, and better at being an Evil Mind Controller, than Beguiler10/Mindbender10. (Similarly, Enchanter17/Master Specialist2/Mindbender1 would be better at what you're trying for than taking the full 10 levels of Mindbender). Spell levels are extremely powerful, and Mindbender just doesn't give you anything close to the 5 caster levels you lose. As a 1-level dip, it's extremely useful (particularly if you're using the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness). A single-level dip in Mindbender is actually recommended for Beguiler, since it can push off your "Advanced Learning" spell to a higher level, if you take the first level of the PrC at 6.

Yeah, this. Giving up 5 levels of casting by going deeper into Mindbender is a painful choice for a full-caster. The only player I've ever had that was willing to go full-Mindbender started as Rogue 1/Bard 5 and then went into Mindbender. Given that after hitting Rogue 1/Bard 5/Mindbender 10 he planned on going back to Rogue (but the campaign ended around level 16), you can see that spellcasting wasn't his top priority for that character. He just wanted a highly-competent skill-face with some magical mind control thrown on for good measure.

With that said, I generally like it when my players don't just dip a PrC, and when on the other side of the screen I tend to avoid doing so. If you want to pick between the first two builds you said, I'd say Beguiler for the extra skill points plus the wonder that is Concealed Casting. If you're not too worried about MAD-ness, Arcane Disciple (Travel domain) can let you fix the whole Teleport thing. If you're short on Wisdom, eh it's still enough for spell trigger items.

[Aleolus]

No they don't, but it seems to me like their Eternal Charm ability would be very useful for his goal, since he uses it once on the rulers they are permanently his best friend (as long as he doesn't use it on too many other creatures, obviously). And it seems like having a permanent Thrall could be a lot of fun. Especially since I was planning on using some of the more mature ways this control can be employed :wink:

And Wisdom probably will not be an issue, since I will also be getting his Will save as high as possible to give him the best possible defense against other people trying to mind control him lol

[Rijan_Sai]

Yeah, agree about taking less Mindbender.

One great evil mastermind which can take the whole PrC is Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10, and that even comes with disposable mind-bent minions as a class feature.

This^ You can still take Mindbender 1 for the telepathy (take at 6, you can get Mindsight at the same time!) At 12 you can take Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) for Psionic Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportPsionic.htm), and Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) gives you Psionic Charm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm) and Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm) for free, with reduced costs.

While Dominate is not "permanent," it is 1 day/level; add on Extend Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#extendPower) and you get up to 36 days of domination before you need to "recharge." (There is also the Practiced Manifester feat in Complete Psionics that can remove the lost MLs from Thrallherd.)

*Edit goes here:*

And it seems like having a permanent Thrall could be a lot of fun. Especially since I was planning on using some of the more mature ways this control can be employed :wink:
Also, Thrallherd gives you 1-2 free thralls for whatever you were thinking here! :smallwink:

================================================== ========

Of course, if your DM is not allowing Psionics for some reason, the previous advice is null-and-void, and you should continue with your original idea of a spellcaster, though I would continue the advice of no more then 1 level of Mindbender...


*Re-reads last post*
Ah... Eternal Charm, not Dominate or Thrall. That still works, as (for +4pp) P. Charm can be extended out to 1 day/level instead of 1 hour (and/or Extended out to 2.)
Besides that, Charm in general is not an "I Win" button; it is a tool to have an easier start with various diplomacy (and Diplomacy) tactics: treat them "right" while Charmed, they'll remember and (probably) be more friendly after the Charm wears off. (Usually they won't necessarily remember being Charmed, just that you are a good friend treated them well!)

[Aleolus]

I do actually have another question, really quick. The School Esoterica from Master Specialist, would that apply to Charm and Suggestion SLA's, or just when I actually cast the spells themselves?

[Rijan_Sai]

I do actually have another question, really quick. The School Esoterica from Master Specialist, would that apply to Charm and Suggestion SLA's, or just when I actually cast the spells themselves?

Good question... Minor and Major both state: "You gain an ability from those below based on your chosen school:" while Moderate says: "Each ability is triggered automatically when
you cast a spell from your chosen school..."

So it looks like you could use the minor and major abilities with SLAs, but not the moderate.
(I'm pretty sure the intent is to only apply to spells cast, as minor references "charm/compulsion spells" and major says "enchantment spells," but:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
and Eternal Charm and Dominate are used "as charm monster" and "as dominate monster," respectively. (With a few bonuses as described in the abilities.))

[Aleolus]

Good question... Minor and Major both state: "You gain an ability from those below based on your chosen school:" while Moderate says: "Each ability is triggered automatically when
you cast a spell from your chosen school..."

So it looks like you could use the minor and major abilities with SLAs, but not the moderate.
(I'm pretty sure the intent is to only apply to spells cast, as minor references "charm/compulsion spells" and major says "enchantment spells," but:

and Eternal Charm and Dominate are used "as charm monster" and "as dominate monster," respectively. (With a few bonuses as described in the abilities.))

Well, the moderate one for Enchantment speciality allows me to reroll a failed will save against an enchantment spell, so... doesn't affect my abilities, rather it makes me more well protected against other people using similar tactics >.>

[ExLibrisMortis]

I second (third?) using Thrallherd, and no more than one level Mindbender. Mindbender has a psionic conversion, but telepath psions have an ACF here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) that gets you telepathy at level 5, so the Mindbender level is unneeded (Mindbender telepathy does have a much better range--getting your DM to stack the ranges is your best-case option, but also firmly within the range of homebrew).


Besides Thrallherd and Mindbender 1, there's the Shadowmind (one-level dip for read thoughts as bonus power). There aren't that many good psionic PrCs. Thrallherd is really, really good at what it does, though, so it's no big loss.

[Aleolus]

OK, for all of you who are suggesting I go with psionics rather than the route I mentioned, I am not very familiar with psionics, have never played one, and don't have any of the books, so while I can appreciate the suggestion, it is not one I will likely be able to actually follow through on (my DM is in the same position, with very little experience/familiarity with Psionics)

[Nifft]

OK, for all of you who are suggesting I go with psionics rather than the route I mentioned, I am not very familiar with psionics, have never played one, and don't have any of the books, so while I can appreciate the suggestion, it is not one I will likely be able to actually follow through on (my DM is in the same position, with very little experience/familiarity with Psionics)

Psion can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm

Thrallherd here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm

Many of the powers are just the same as spells (e.g. psionic charm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm) is charm person except you can spend more points to affect more types, so it's a scaling charm monster). Psi suggestion is just suggestion except you get it at character level 3 instead of 5, psi dominate is dominate person except you can use it on monsters before character level 17.

Overall it's a bit weaker than being a Wizard, but you get points instead of slots so you've got more tactical flexibility, and many of your best blasting powers either do untyped damage or give you a choice between 4 energy types. That means you need fewer attack powers to cover blasting, and you can take more utility effects (fun stuff like time hop).


The big thing to remember about Psionics is that you can never spend more power points than your caster level, so you can't dump all your PP into a single attack at level 1.

As long as you and your DM remember that one rule, Psionics can be a fun magic system addition which is a bit less powerful than Arcane magic -- but still quite good, and very suitable for this purpose.

[Aleolus]

Hmm. I don't know, Thrallherd looks interesting, but I think I like the look of Mindbender better, since Thrallherd doesn't actually state what kind of control you have over your Thralls and Believers. Mindbender, when you do get your Thrall ability it explicitly states that it is a permanent Dominate effect for them. Not to mention, the caster level loses are almost completely negated by Practiced Spellcaster (I realize you don't get higher level spells, but your actual caster level is still relevant), and you gain extra boosts with your Enchantment spells specifically. At level 20, with either of the builds I presented, yes you are only casting up to 7th level spells, but those spells are cast at caster level 19, except for your Enchantment spells, which are caster level 23. Seems a decent trade-off, since you still get Mind Blank around then if I'm not mistaken

[umbergod]

Have you considered either more master specialist or some archmage levels instead of Enchanter8? Theres really no real reason to go beyond wiz5 imo

[Aleolus]

...Oh. I just looked, in order to get Minor School Esoterica, I would need at least 4 levels in Master Specialist anyways...So I guess a better build for that one would be Enchanter 5/Mindbender 10/Master Specialist 5

[Falontani]

Lvl

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Beguiler

+0

+0

+0

+2


Combat Expertise

Armored Mage, Trapfinding



2

Beguiler

+1

+0

+0

+3



Cloaked Casting, Surprise Casting



3

Beguiler

+1

+1

+1

+3


Improved Feint

Advanced Learning



4

Beguiler

+2

+1

+1

+4






5

Beguiler

+2

+1

+1

+4



Silent Spell



6

Mindbender

+2

+3

+1

+6


Mindsight

Telepathy 100 ft



7

Beguiler

+3

+4

+2

+7



Surprise Casting (move action)



8

Prestige Bard

+3

+4

+5

+9



Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge



9

Mindbender

+4

+5

+5

+10


Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler

Push the Weak Mind, Skill Boost



10

Mindbender

+4

+5

+6

+10



Mindread 2/day



11

Mindbender

+5

+6

+6

+11



Eternal Charm



12

Mindbender

+5

+6

+6

+11


Spell Focus: Enchantment

Push the Weak Mind



13

Mindbender

+6

+7

+7

+12



Enchantment Spellpower, Eternal Charm



14

Mindbender

+6

+7

+7

+12



Dominate, Mindread



15

Mindbender

+7

+8

+7

+13


Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

Eternal Charm, Push the Weak Mind



16

Mindbender

+7

+8

+8

+13






17

Mindbender

+8

+9

+8

+14



Enchantment Spell Power, Eternal Charm, Thrall



18

Sublime Chord

+8

+9

+8

+16


Spell Penetration

Bardic Music, Bardic Lore



19

Sublime Chord

+9

+9

+8

+17



Song of Arcane Power



20

Sublime Chord

+9

+10

+9

+17








You sacrifice much more spellcasting than I am comfortable with, however with your skills and surprise casting you can feint in combat as a swift action, therefore enabling you to never provoke while casting, and more importantly getting that +1 DC, which one your kind of build is all too precious. Your caster level for enchantment spells (your specialty obviously) is 24, actually better than a full caster, however you only get up to 5th level spells as a beguiler. Your other caster levels are ranging around 20, unless it happens to be an evocation spell or necromancy spell, which is instead a 17. However the fun part comes in that you are able to learn a few spells (like teleport) from the wizard/sorcerer list. She can further boost her caster level by another 4 (pushing her enchantment caster level all the way up to 28) by taking a move action beforehand and using one of her VERY limited bard songs.
In your narrow scope of a field you are very good, your DCs are decent, however you do not have access to the best of the enchantment spells.
You should also have access to all bard exclusive spells (glibness?).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wouldn't you want to run the SC levels earlier, to get more higher-levelled spells? It looks like you're only getting one 6th-level spell, but you could be getting two 7ths (at the cost of beguiler 5ths).

[Falontani]

Wouldn't you want to run the SC levels earlier, to get more higher-levelled spells? It looks like you're only getting one 6th-level spell, but you could be getting two 7ths (at the cost of beguiler 5ths).

aleolus seems to want the Mindbender levels over spellcasting ability, so I looked at potential split off levels, and level 1 was the obvious, but taking more levels level 6 is the second real cutoff, however being 6 levels in, grabbing dominate and thrall was where I figured we should just go all 10 levels.

[Troacctid]

What if you just went Bard 5/Mindbender 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mindbender +5/Sublime Chord +4?

[Aleolus]

Allow me to also state that I tend to prefer no more than two or three classes for my characters. You get more than that and it gets tricky to feel organic. I can do it, but it's not ideal

[Falontani]

Allow me to also state that I tend to prefer no more than two or three classes for my characters. You get more than that and it gets tricky to feel organic. I can do it, but it's not ideal

the theme of your character changes not by how many classes you have, but by how you use the classes. A barbarian/frenzied berserker/berserk/war hulk is still just as much a "Raging Warrior" as a straight 20 barbarian. A paladin is just as much a holy warrior as a cleric/fighter/ordained champion/warpriest. It is not what classes compose a character, but how you use the classes to compose the character. It is something that many people have trouble understanding about how 3.5 was designed. Yes when you tell someone out of character that your class is x/y/z/a/d it sounds extremely bizarre, but in game you aren't x/y/z/a/d you are a adjective with a noun. If you can't summarize what you do into 2-4 words then you have truly lost sight of what your character is.

The beguiler build above that I gave is beguiler 6/Mindbender 10/prestige bard 1/Sublime Chord 3. In game you could call yourself many things from humble mage to beguiler, to what you truly are, an Enchanter.

In a game that I am in I have a generic spellcaster/demonologist/fiendbinder. I have told people I was a demonologist from level 1. My character's concept has not changed, and most likely will not change.