[PF] Advice on a Character Build

[Sinner505]

Hi everyone!

I'll start by stating the obvious, I googled a lot for this topic and I haven't found what I was looking for, so I thought that posting here would be a great idea.

We're doing a semi-homebrew semi-module adventure, the DM is a trusted friend and we love how he does everything, however it's not unusual (actually, it's normal) to have CR way higher than we should be able to handle.
All enemies that have variable HD are usually maxed and x1.5 so even doing 75 damage on a regular city guard, won't kill it.
Also for some illogical reason in 1.5 years of campaign we had ONE surprise round, no matter how careful we plan, they know. They expect us. so all those nice "do 30d6 in a surprise round" will never work in our progression. However the 3 remaining party member are pretty heavy hitters, so I'd like to focus more on the off-combat skills, and in combat pick off the weakened ones.

My Concept idea is a Knife Throwing assassin build, the 3 way I considered so far:
1) Ninja, but shurikens seems so underperforming, everything else is amazing but IF possible I'd avoid ninja (in another campaign a ninja with sap master tree destroyed everything and everyone so it's "not liked" at the table)
2) Rogue-Scout no surprise round, sounds weak w/o it
3) card caster magus, but we need a stealthy scout character (basically everything sees through invisibility in important places).

Stats are rolled, not buy point, free to put anywhere and are as follows: 12 15 10 17 16 15 (levels and race not applied yet)

we are currently level 11 but suggestion for options at level 12/13 are much appreciated.
Budget is the same as the average wealth in core manual (82k at lvl11).
Everything from Paizo is approved (except uncommon races and firearms), nothing from other 3rd parties.

my current character has several deatrh marks on her, I believe she'll die within a couple session and if it happens in the middle I'd like to have the "backup" ready.

If anything more is needed, let me know.

Side Note I forgot: The DM is aware of the "hardcore setting" we're in, and is not his intention to wipe us again and again (happened once and it was our fault 100%) however as a freebie he allows us to start with 4 traits, as long as they are all from different categories.

[Geddy2112]

Even without surprise, there are other ways to render enemies flat footed. Anything denied dex will trigger sneak attack, but I understand your concern that without the sneak attack dice ninja and rogue are weak. With that factored in as well as the table hate for ninja, I would go card caster.

You can get stealth as a class skill with a trait; since you have four it won't kill you to spend one for this purpose. You could even throw another trait into getting perception as a class skill. A throwing build is going to be more dex based anyways, making stealth better. Since the cards are really to deliver spells and their raw damage is not great as is, consider going a small race for +4 to stealth on top. Of the races you have access to, ratfolk have perfect stats for a dex based magus, even goblin would work.

Hellcat stealth and dampen presence are feat intensive, but they will make you stealthy as hell with the ability to HIPS and negate most blindsense/sight. Shame you won't have negate aroma/pass without trace on your spell list, but you could wand them.

[Boggartbae]

If you need to be stealthy I would play a goblin, since all told they get a +10 modifier to stealth (+4 size, +4 racial, +2 dex)

I'd also recommend magus, since they have better saves than a rogue or a ninja, as well as spells, so on the whole you'll have more survivability than a rogue/ninja. Even though their damage isn't always on like a rogue's is (since you typically need to use spells, whereas they get sneak attack for free), as long as you're just picking off weakened targets you should be fine.

here's a magus guide I like, but it might be a little outdated:
http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus

[mistermysterio]

What books and sources are allowed?

Can you use Path of War and Path of War: Expanded?

A stalker who specializes in Tempest Gale and Solar Wind disciplines would work quite well here, maybe with Thrashing Dragon thrown into the mix for a little melee. It would give you a strong stealth character who specializes in dexterity and wisdom (and with a little in con, potential to have some nice saves!) . The maneuvers means you can do some pretty cool things with your thrown weapons besides straight damage. Anyhow, here are a couple guides... I recommend reading up (assuming you are okay to use Path of War). You would probably want to go with starknives!

All of the Disciplines - focus on Solar Wind and Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k8AO1HL5H-BASvWdx3XsHfyTHHGdb0iBJHmt6cRmj_M/edit)

Stalker Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f468j7r7cQyAoiTfUAJD-2VaeazoYCm8ThC96c_mRYQ/edit)

[ElFi]

If you're doing a throwing weapons build, you'll almost definitely want a Blinkback belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/), which basically gives the returning property to up to four light weapons (or two one-handed weapons, no word on whether they overlap) of your choice. One of the biggest issues with throwing builds is needing an easy way to get the weapons you throw back in your hands as soon as possible (so you can actually use enchanted weapons without losing them, and so you don't need to carry around a functional armory to not run out mid-battle), and that belt is the easiest way I know to do it.

The classes you've chosen are perfectly functional at fighting with throwing weapons (though Rogue might struggle a little since setting up sneak attacks at range is like 900% harder than doing so in melee unless you've got an easy way to generate concealment), so I'll provide a few more suggestions instead of refuting yours:

Ranger: Full BAB, can pick Throwing as a combat style to get those juicy early-access bonus feats, and has a passable skill list for building a stealthy scout type. Animal companion can be handy as a scouting buddy or a bodyguard to keep the beefy guys out of your face, since throwing builds are basically melee builds by another name. The only real mark against it is a lack of consistent bonus damage, though Favored Enemy can afford you some help there.

Warpriest: Probably my favorite of my recommendations. You'll want the Cult Leader (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo-warpriest-archetypes/cult-leader/) archetype, which has all sorts of fun goodies for a sneaky assassin, including bonuses to stealth (and eventually hide in plain sight), enthrall on command, and limited sneak attack (wee!) in exchange for some bonus feats. All of the goodies of the regular Warpriest, particularly scaling weapon damage (so your throwing knives aren't hitting for d4's) and swift-action self-buffing, are kept basically intact. The only real drawback is that you'll need to burn a feat on Weapon Focus (or worship a deity with a throwing weapon as a favored weapon- Desna is my personal recommendation if you're using Golarion gods, so you can have those tasty starknives) to take full advantage of Sacred Weapon.

Hunter: This is probably the worst of the three here, though not without its merits. You get martial weapon proficiency (again, go for those starknives), a fully-scaling animal companion, Precise Shot as a bonus feat, swift-action self buffs to your Strength or Dexterity, and pretty good spellcasting when you're not sticking blades in people. All-in-all, it basically plays like a Ranger with less accurate attacks and more magic, the unfortunate downside being that the Hunter spell list doesn't have a lot of options for directly augmenting your ability to fight, so you'll play more of a switch-hitting role.

There are other classes that can also fill in for this particular role (Inquisitor and Bard stand out the most for me), but the above are probably your best picks aside from Ninja/Rogue.

[Arkain]

I'd wager inquisitor, possibly with the sanctified slayer archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/inquisitor-archetypes-paizo/sanctified-slayer), is worth a look. The archetype trades judgment for slayer talents (which can be used for feats), a delayed sneak attack and studied target. The class itself can be easily made into a rogue-like character, including social shenanigans, while also offering spells like (Greater) Invisibility and Silence to aid that endeavor. If you want to go into TWF as well as throwing you'd have to burn another feat to be able to use bane on two weapons at once, though. It'd also be wise to clear up beforehand whether throwing weapons and the blinkback belt work with bane, as the weapon would technically leave your hand and be re-drawn after each attack.
So at level 11 you'd be looking at 3 (studied target)+2+2d6 (bane)+3d6 (sneak attack) damage on top of whatever else you got, like Divine Power. At level 12 add another 2d6 due to greater bane (which you could get earlier with a bane baldric), at 13 add another sneak attack die and those lovely level 5 spells. Basically, you should always be able to be around the same level of bonus damage a regular sneak attacker like a rogue would be, if not more. Add Greater Invisibility to that and sneak attacks should be regular occurences, unless every enemy can always see through that. The downside is that this would kind of lock you into the blinkback belt though, as bane is just too precious to give up - i.e. no belt of mighty hurling or generic stat boost belts in that slot.

[Sinner505]

Even without surprise, there are other ways to render enemies flat footed. Anything denied dex will trigger sneak attack, but I understand your concern that without the sneak attack dice ninja and rogue are weak. With that factored in as well as the table hate for ninja, I would go card caster.

You can get stealth as a class skill with a trait; since you have four it won't kill you to spend one for this purpose. You could even throw another trait into getting perception as a class skill. A throwing build is going to be more dex based anyways, making stealth better. Since the cards are really to deliver spells and their raw damage is not great as is, consider going a small race for +4 to stealth on top. Of the races you have access to, ratfolk have perfect stats for a dex based magus, even goblin would work.

Hellcat stealth and dampen presence are feat intensive, but they will make you stealthy as hell with the ability to HIPS and negate most blindsense/sight. Shame you won't have negate aroma/pass without trace on your spell list, but you could wand them.

Thanks for the suggestion, will look into ratfolk but I'm pretty sure playing a goblin will be a huge disadvantage in the campaign as, according to current world-lore, there has never been a "good" goblin (while we have experienced they do exist, at least "non evil", even cities like Kaer Maga cast them out immediatly)


If you need to be stealthy I would play a goblin, since all told they get a +10 modifier to stealth (+4 size, +4 racial, +2 dex)

I'd also recommend magus, since they have better saves than a rogue or a ninja, as well as spells, so on the whole you'll have more survivability than a rogue/ninja. Even though their damage isn't always on like a rogue's is (since you typically need to use spells, whereas they get sneak attack for free), as long as you're just picking off weakened targets you should be fine.

here's a magus guide I like, but it might be a little outdated:
]

I've read a bit of some "handbooks" (the link is dead to me, might be a problem on my side), I'll dwelve deeper into it, as for goblin, read quoted above :(


What books and sources are allowed?
only paizo sadly


If you're doing a throwing weapons build, you'll almost definitely want Blinkback belt, which basically gives the returning property to up to four light weapons (or two one-handed weapons, no word on whether they overlap) of your choice. One of the biggest issues with throwing builds is needing an easy way to get the weapons you throw back in your hands as soon as possible (so you can actually use enchanted weapons without losing them, and so you don't need to carry around a functional armory to not run out mid-battle), and that belt is the easiest way I know to do it.

The classes you've chosen are perfectly functional at fighting with throwing weapons (though Rogue might struggle a little since setting up sneak attacks at range is like 900% harder than doing so in melee unless you've got an easy way to generate concealment), so I'll provide a few more suggestions instead of refuting yours:

Ranger: Full BAB, can pick Throwing as a combat style to get those juicy early-access bonus feats, and has a passable skill list for building a stealthy scout type. Animal companion can be handy as a scouting buddy or a bodyguard to keep the beefy guys out of your face, since throwing builds are basically melee builds by another name. The only real mark against it is a lack of consistent bonus damage, though Favored Enemy can afford you some help there.

Warpriest: Probably my favorite of my recommendations. You'll want the Cult Leader archetype, which has all sorts of fun goodies for a sneaky assassin, including bonuses to stealth (and eventually hide in plain sight), enthrall on command, and limited sneak attack (wee!) in exchange for some bonus feats. All of the goodies of the regular Warpriest, particularly scaling weapon damage (so your throwing knives aren't hitting for d4's) and swift-action self-buffing, are kept basically intact. The only real drawback is that you'll need to burn a feat on Weapon Focus (or worship a deity with a throwing weapon as a favored weapon- Desna is my personal recommendation if you're using Golarion gods, so you can have those tasty starknives) to take full advantage of Sacred Weapon.

Hunter: This is probably the worst of the three here, though not without its merits. You get martial weapon proficiency (again, go for those starknives), a fully-scaling animal companion, Precise Shot as a bonus feat, swift-action self buffs to your Strength or Dexterity, and pretty good spellcasting when you're not sticking blades in people. All-in-all, it basically plays like a Ranger with less accurate attacks and more magic, the unfortunate downside being that the Hunter spell list doesn't have a lot of options for directly augmenting your ability to fight, so you'll play more of a switch-hitting role.

There are other classes that can also fill in for this particular role (Inquisitor and Bard stand out the most for me), but the above are probably your best picks aside from Ninja/Rogue.

the warpriest look tasty indeed, will look into it


I'd wager inquisit........

this looks interesting however I've looked at inquisitor befrore when my first PC died, and I just didn't feel any resonance with the class, it's just not for me. Warprirest and Magus suggested above trigger my interest a bit more but thank you anyway for the feedback.

will look into warpriest (never seen one in our games, and not a big fan of deities stuff) and go further into magus, will update when I've chosen to put together the pieces to make an at least usable build :D (no interest in minmaxing, but a bit of it is necessary sadly)

Thank you everyone

Edit for Question: would Critical Strike Arcana work on a coup de grace? Full round for the attack, swift+free for the cast? would the spell get added to the DC of coup de grace or îs it just extra damage in case the victim survives the DC?

[Chromascope3D]

Thanks for the suggestion, will look into ratfolk but I'm pretty sure playing a goblin will be a huge disadvantage in the campaign as, according to current world-lore, there has never been a "good" goblin (while we have experienced they do exist, at least "non evil", even cities like Kaer Maga cast them out immediatly

Good to know that fantasy racism is still alive and well. :smalltongue:

I'd recommend looking into the Flying Blade archetype for sales swashbucklers as well, which is built around throwing daggers. Although they don't have stealth as a class skill, you can always gain that with a trait.

[Sinner505]

Good to know that fantasy racism is still alive and well. :smalltongue:

I'd recommend looking into the Flying Blade archetype for sales swashbucklers as well, which is built around throwing daggers. Although they don't have stealth as a class skill, you can always gain that with a trait.

I avoided looking at swashbuckler immediatly for 2 reason:
1) we had one already, was "gently asked to redo it without min/maxing" as it was worse that the previously mentioned ninja
2) a party member has already declared that, if/when his PC dies he has a swashbuckler ready (did non share info other than class, we did not inquire) and we like variety at the table

I put out a veeeeery general magus build (with card caster and hexcrafter) but the more I look at it, the more I feel it isn't what I want, so I might look into unchained rogue and various archetypes, while the idea of throwing knife still is really appealing to me, the whole "blow stuff up with magic" might be not very compatible with what I have in mind.

Therefore, another Q: without going ninja, is there a way for rogue (unchained) to get access to SU abilities that would help? (slumber hex and flight hex are the main reasons I put hexcrafter in the basic idea, something like that would be great)

[Lotheb]

The Sylvan trickster archtype can take hexes as rogue talents, and has some other minor changes to be more nature focused. The Eldritch Scoundrel gets up to 6th level spells from the wizard list, in exchange for armor proffieciency, 1/2 sneak attack and rogue talent progression. Both should be compatible with unchained rogue

[Sinner505]

so what I have now, as an unchained rogue flying blade archetype, the idea behind it:
high stealth to move around and pick valuable/vulnerable target and nuke them, being able to move anywhere with abilities and, even if (un)willingly completely disarmed, still able to assassinate/operate, escellent in case of assassination/rescuing/volunteered captured

Tiefling, Prehensile tail racial trait, lvl 11
STR 10 DEX 24 CON 16 INT 18 WIS 12 CHA 13
Traits: Reactionary (C), River Rat (Reg) Indomitable Faith (F) FREE TRAIT
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1) TWF
2) Minor magic £(detect magic)
3) Skill focus: Stealth
4) Major magic (Vanish)
5) Extra Rogue Talent -> Umbral Gear
5) Rogue's edge: Stealth
6) Dampen Presence
7) Hellcat Stealth
8) Umbral gear (purely for that added duration, willing to change)
9) improved TWF
10) Rogue's Edge: Disable device (to counterbalance the flying blade loss)
10) Skill Mastery
11) Quick Draw
12) Stalker Talent -> Cunning Feint


Equipment at lvl 11:
2x Returning dagger +1 (8k each, is the +1 worth? drop it? keen instead?)
Belt of incredible dexterity +4 (16k)
Cloak of resistence +4 (16k)
Scrolls to get permanent see invisibility, total cost: 6'450
Celestial Armor (22'400)
ring of sustenance (this is mandatory in our setting, other option is the ioun stone+wayfinder) 2'500
Remaining budget at level 11: 2'650 for normal items (bunch of regular daggers, everyday use items)

any suggestions on how to improve it? is the equipment ok? I never played with equipment on rogues.

Again, the focus is not to constantly be in-fight but to hit-and-run weakened targets, and mostly off-combat activities.

edit: another option would be using poison to paralyze and coup de grace targets, but poison for the few things I looked at seems underwhelmingly weak, low DC, fairly high prices, are there way to get a target paralyzed (or other CdG conditions) easly? (again, hex for slumber was a goal but seemingly by what I^ve read the DC for a rogue slumber is way too low)

[TheOneHawk]

Ooh! Ooh! I can help with this!

You want the trait always threatening. Makes it a free action to draw concealed daggers, so you can have a dozen daggers hidden on your person and just pull them out at will, but then with your ridiculous sleight of hand have even the most trained guardsman think you're weapon free if you're frisked.

Knowing really obscure traits is handy sometimes. One advantage of the countless hours spent on that mess in my signature.

That said, what's the flying blade archetype? I only see an archetype by that name for swashbuckler?

[Lotheb]

Ask your DM if you can combine your belt of dexterity with a blinkback belt. The rules for it would have it cost 7,500 gp more than just the belt of dex, but you would save 12,000 gp by not having to get returning on your daggers, for a net gain of 4,500 gp. More importantly a returning weapon doesnt come back until just before your next turn, while a weapon keyed to a blinkback belt returns to the belt as soon as the attack is completed, letting you actually make all your attacks with just two weapons
Also, you can't get just returning daggers, weapons have to have a +1 enhancement before any other properties can be added. Keen is usually a bad deal for rogues since sneak attack damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, and it's especially bad for your build since you don't have any damage bonus beyond the base 1d4 that would get multiplied. Even flaming would be better.

[upho]

Disclaimer: I'm very far from an expert on the rogue, so take my advice with a grain of salt since I may be unaware of some specific options available to you. But hopefully I can at least give you some useful advice on your build from a less class-specific perspective.


unchained rogue flying blade archetypeThere's a rogue Flying Blade archetype? I thought the only archetype with that name was the swashbuckler one.

Or did you happen to write the wrong name? If so, I can't really tell which one among the tons of rogue archetypes you're actually using (Knife Master?).


5) Extra Rogue Talent -> Umbral Gear
8) Umbral gear (purely for that added duration, willing to change)I get how this aligns with the stated goals, but I question how often these tactics are going to be applicable. I'd seriously consider how often you're actually not going to be able to access your normal gear and remain alive. For example, if I was a ruthless villain who managed to somehow have you disarmed/caught with hidden weapons/similar, I'd most likely simply kill you first thing, not make you a prisoner unless there's some kind of special circumstances I'd have a strong incentive for doing so. But if you think you'll get good use out of this in your game, you should of course go ahead. Regardless, taking it a second time simply for increasing the duration does seem like waste IMO, as I can't imagine anything but exceedingly rare situations in which an additional 10 minutes will make a difference.

Otherwise, if you intend to throw daggers, you typically want the standard ranged feats (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot etc).


2x Returning dagger +1 (8k each, is the +1 worth? drop it? keen instead?)Unfortunately, returning (and other abilities using the same mechanic) is nothing but a trap, since it doesn't return the weapon until the round after you've thrown it. This means it a) requires you to have as many magic daggers as you have attacks in a full attack, which will quickly get very expensive or simply result in you having several sub-par daggers, and b) forces you to remain in the same in the same spot you made your attack in until the start of your next turn in order to catch your returning daggers. Which of course can not just very easily be disrupted by enemy actions, but will also severely limit your options in many situations. It also goes very poorly with a "hit and run" combat style.

As I think someone already mentioned in this thread, what you want is a blinkback belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/), which together with Quick Draw allows you to not only have the dagger teleport back immediately after each individual attack has been resolved, but also to throw the same dagger as many times as you have ranged attacks in round. (RAW, this belt could even allow you to TWF with a single dagger, although you'll typically want two daggers anyways at this level, and your GM may very well put their foot down and ruling it to be impossible.) If you're going to do any kind of throwing with a manufactured weapon, AFAIK this is the one and only actually viable option.

I think especially training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) could be very valuable for you.


edit: another option would be using poison to paralyze and coup de grace targets, but poison for the few things I looked at seems underwhelmingly weak, low DC, fairly high prices, are there way to get a target paralyzed (or other CdG conditions) easly? (again, hex for slumber was a goal but seemingly by what I^ve read the DC for a rogue slumber is way too low)Yeah, especially after the earliest levels, AFAIK poisons aren't worth the typically huge investments required, since at best the result is simply that poisons remain barely useful in combat for some additional levels, and still only against the weakest mooks you'll face.

All this said, judging by what has been previously deemed overpowered at your table, I'd hold back on especially the combat optimization here. It's typically not fun for anyone if your character is of a general mechanical power above that of the other PCs and the game's expectations, and it may make it increasingly difficult for your GM to provide the party with challenges appropriate for all members. So I also recommend you stay away from the more "gishy" half-casters like the warpriest, magus and inquisitor, even though I also believe some of these classes' archetypes could be great with both the character concept you seem to be aiming for and the nature of your game. At least unless you're also both able and willing to nerf your character's mechanical power even further (in the case of casters likely especially outside of combat).

[Sinner505]

Sorry everyone for the VERY late answers but it has been a hell of a week, aynway:


Ooh! Ooh! I can help with this!

You want the trait always threatening. Makes it a free action to draw concealed daggers, so you can have a dozen daggers hidden on your person and just pull them out at will, but then with your ridiculous sleight of hand have even the most trained guardsman think you're weapon free if you're frisked.

Knowing really obscure traits is handy sometimes. One advantage of the countless hours spent on that mess in my signature.

That said, what's the flying blade archetype? I only see an archetype by that name for swashbuckler?

knife master not flying blade, my mistake don't know how this happened.

will look into that signature link as soon as I regain my mental focus :D


Ask your DM if you can combine your belt of dexterity with a blinkback belt. The rules for it would have it cost 7,500 gp more than just the belt of dex, but you would save 12,000 gp by not having to get returning on your daggers, for a net gain of 4,500 gp. More importantly a returning weapon doesnt come back until just before your next turn, while a weapon keyed to a blinkback belt returns to the belt as soon as the attack is completed, letting you actually make all your attacks with just two weapons
Also, you can't get just returning daggers, weapons have to have a +1 enhancement before any other properties can be added. Keen is usually a bad deal for rogues since sneak attack damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, and it's especially bad for your build since you don't have any damage bonus beyond the base 1d4 that would get multiplied. Even flaming would be better.

Will see if I can have the "belt of blinkback dexterity", it's always a case-by.case- when we want to customize items as some times the price suggested are just unreasonable (high or low). Would solve the majority of troubles


Disclaimer: I'm very far from an expert on the rogue, so take my advice with a grain of salt since I may be unaware of some specific options available to you. But hopefully I can at least give you some useful advice on your build from a less class-specific perspective.

There's a rogue Flying Blade archetype? I thought the only archetype with that name was the swashbuckler one.

Or did you happen to write the wrong name? If so, I can't really tell which one among the tons of rogue archetypes you're actually using (Knife Master?).

yeah it's the knife master, I confused the 2 somehow


I get how this aligns with the stated goals, but I question how often these tactics are going to be applicable. I'd seriously consider how often you're actually not going to be able to access your normal gear and remain alive. For example, if I was a ruthless villain who managed to somehow have you disarmed/caught with hidden weapons/similar, I'd most likely simply kill you first thing, not make you a prisoner unless there's some kind of special circumstances I'd have a strong incentive for doing so. But if you think you'll get good use out of this in your game, you should of course go ahead. Regardless, taking it a second time simply for increasing the duration does seem like waste IMO, as I can't imagine anything but exceedingly rare situations in which an additional 10 minutes will make a difference.

Otherwise, if you intend to throw daggers, you typically want the standard ranged feats (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot etc).

I'll give you a simple example, we're running rise of the runelord, after 2 years we just finished chapter 3, we decided to approach the fortress trough the deathweb cave, we fought 8 of them with 150+ hp each, they almost TPK us (one party member survived and dragged the 3 unconscious with 0 STR to a safe location nearby), DM admitted there were a lot less and with "tuned down" stats in the AP, so the times we actually got into "the guards will strip you of everything suspicious while entering the town" is normal routine :D but with enough sleight of hand I might replace these 2 for PbS tree




Unfortunately, returning (and other abilities using the same mechanic) is nothing but a trap, since it doesn't return the weapon until the round after you've thrown it. This means it a) requires you to have as many magic daggers as you have attacks in a full attack, which will quickly get very expensive or simply result in you having several sub-par daggers, and b) forces you to remain in the same in the same spot you made your attack in until the start of your next turn in order to catch your returning daggers. Which of course can not just very easily be disrupted by enemy actions, but will also severely limit your options in many situations. It also goes very poorly with a "hit and run" combat style.

As I think someone already mentioned in this thread, what you want is a blinkback belt, which together with Quick Draw allows you to not only have the dagger teleport back immediately after each individual attack has been resolved, but also to throw the same dagger as many times as you have ranged attacks in round. (RAW, this belt could even allow you to TWF with a single dagger, although you'll typically want two daggers anyways at this level, and your GM may very well put their foot down and ruling it to be impossible.) If you're going to do any kind of throwing with a manufactured weapon, AFAIK this is the one and only actually viable option.

I think especially training could be very valuable for you.

will look into training, what feat you suggest to put in there?
For the blinkback I'll discuss it with the DM, the DEX belt feels just like a key component for the majority of my skills, while the blinkback would "only" enhanche combat


Yeah, especially after the earliest levels, AFAIK poisons aren't worth the typically huge investments required, since at best the result is simply that poisons remain barely useful in combat for some additional levels, and still only against the weakest mooks you'll face.

All this said, judging by what has been previously deemed overpowered at your table, I'd hold back on especially the combat optimization here. It's typically not fun for anyone if your character is of a general mechanical power above that of the other PCs and the game's expectations, and it may make it increasingly difficult for your GM to provide the party with challenges appropriate for all members. So I also recommend you stay away from the more "gishy" half-casters like the warpriest, magus and inquisitor, even though I also believe some of these classes' archetypes could be great with both the character concept you seem to be aiming for and the nature of your game. At least unless you're also both able and willing to nerf your character's mechanical power even further (in the case of casters likely especially outside of combat).

I'll say just that the 3 "banned" classes/archetypes were minmaxed extensively, even bosses were one-shotted with ease at those point or made the rest of the party a useless feature both in combat and out.
I see where a magus fits the character identity I have in mind, I find it harder on a warpriest and non-existant on an inquisitor, I'm still open for builds with them but the vibes are flowing with the unchained rogue at the moment, wlling to reconsider.

[upho]

Sorry everyone for the VERY late answers but it has been a hell of a weekS'okay, I'm all too familiar with hellish weeks. And in this case, you're the one with a possible deadline (pun intended)... :smalltongue:


knife master not flying blade, my mistake don't know how this happened.And I'm all too familiar with making these kinds of mistakes as well... Anyhow, no harm done since I think my advice would've been the same even had I known.


Will see if I can have the "belt of blinkback dexterity", it's always a case-by.case- when we want to customize items as some times the price suggested are just unreasonable (high or low). Would solve the majority of troubles
/snip and paste/
For the blinkback I'll discuss it with the DM, the DEX belt feels just like a key component for the majority of my skills, while the blinkback would "only" enhanche combatYes, I really recommend you talk to your GM about this. And unless your GM is already aware, you should probably also explain that a thrown weapon combat specialization is unfortunately severely gimped without this item. And also that the specialization is (rightly) infamous for being the least effective and most resource demanding of all, even in games where custom items are cheap and easy to come by. Which isn't strange, considering the additional feats and items required simply to come close to that of a basic shortbow archer, who still enjoys a larger damage die and a range increment more than six times greater than a dagger thrower.

(As a sidenote, in order to match actual the combat effectiveness of a shortbow archer in a real game, you typically also need a Belt of Mighty Hurling combined with both a Blinkback belt and the standard Belt of Str/Dex/Con, making also the attack bonus of thrown weapons rely on Str and thus allowing you to bypass the harsh limitations imposed by the normal dual Dex and Str dependence.)


I'll give you a simple example, we're running rise of the runelord, after 2 years we just finished chapter 3, we decided to approach the fortress trough the deathweb cave, we fought 8 of them with 150+ hp each, they almost TPK us (one party member survived and dragged the 3 unconscious with 0 STR to a safe location nearby), DM admitted there were a lot less and with "tuned down" stats in the AP,Yeah that's quite a bit more challenging than what the AP says. And I can understand why your GM boosts the opposition, as official APs generally assume the PC's are not only built with very little optimization, but also that they're played as recklessly brave combatants without much tactical insight or teamwork. That said, there are of course exceptions to this, and for example RotR does include a few rather famously lethal encounters which may be challenging also for a stronger party.

(Coincidentally, my current "long-haul" home game also happen to be based on RotR, although with plenty of additions and modifications. And I'm certain that even though the PCs in my game were two levels below the recommended and the party temporarily reduced to three when entering the fortress (through other methods), they still would've utterly steamrolled that encounter without breaking a sweat if run as written.)


so the times we actually got into "the guards will strip you of everything suspicious while entering the town" is normal routine :D but with enough sleight of hand I might replace these 2 for PbS treeYes, especially when considering the minimum level when this character would enter the game, with max ranks into SoL I don't think hiding a couple of daggers from a guard is even going to require you to make a skill check, even if said guards are of an unusually high level and decide to perform a proper strip search for some reason. And I strongly recommend you at least invest in the most basic first three or four ranged feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot), because even if your game had only included the "easy mode"combat encounters as written in RotR, I believe your Knife Master otherwise would have a high risk of becoming a liability rather than a resource in combat for your party.


will look into training, what feat you suggest to put in there?Basically, any combat feat for which you qualify and don't need for meeting prerequisites of other options. Also, before I forget, I'm not good with rogues but I believe you'd need something like the Feint from Shadows (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/feint-from-shadows-ex/) talent to make good use of Cunning Feint.


I'll say just that the 3 "banned" classes/archetypes were minmaxed extensively, even bosses were one-shotted with ease at those point or made the rest of the party a useless feature both in combat and out.Well, I sorta suspected this was the case. And I'd still be a bit careful with a Magus, as it really plays in a different league in terms of power potential both in and outside of combat. (But regardless, my tip is to try and solve balance issues by other methods than staying away from certain classes, and especially from those with as low optimization ceilings as the ninja and swashbuckler. The best result is IME to have everyone agree on a certain defined general power span before starting the game, and then keep to that agreement regardless of class or build preferences. It does require everyone has a bit more experience and general system knowledge, but it seems that shouldn't be much of a problem for the players in your group.)


I see where a magus fits the character identity I have in mind, I find it harder on a warpriest and non-existant on an inquisitor, I'm still open for builds with them but the vibes are flowing with the unchained rogue at the moment, wlling to reconsider.Warpriest and inquisitor are less obvious matches than the magus, and require more specific build tweaking with archetypes/domains/deity choices etc to suit, so I recommend you start with the magus. Have a look at Kurald Galain's excellent Magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) here in the Playground, a good place to find inspiration and to ask for tips and ideas on suitable magus options. Otherwise, I think the rogue concept you've outlined looks like a good start and could definitely match both the character concept and - with just a bit more combat prowess - also the general mechanical power you're looking for.

[Sinner505]

Yes, I really recommend you talk to your GM about this. And unless your GM is already aware, you should probably also explain that a thrown weapon combat specialization is unfortunately severely gimped without this item. And also that the specialization is (rightly) infamous for being the least effective and most resource demanding of all, even in games where custom items are cheap and easy to come by. Which isn't strange, considering the additional feats and items required simply to come close to that of a basic shortbow archer, who still enjoys a larger damage die and a range increment more than six times greater than a dagger thrower.

(As a sidenote, in order to match actual the combat effectiveness of a shortbow archer in a real game, you typically also need a Belt of Mighty Hurling combined with both a Blinkback belt and the standard Belt of Str/Dex/Con, making also the attack bonus of thrown weapons rely on Str and thus allowing you to bypass the harsh limitations imposed by the normal dual Dex and Str dependence.)

I got the approval for the blinkback belt of dexterity at the suggested price, my DM knows me well enough to know I'm the least likely to try and break the game at our table at the moment, while it saddend me a bit to admit I'm the only player who doesen't have a "personal homebrew quest" and yet I'M the one EVERY major npc either loves or wants dead.
The 3 other party members are heavily combat focused with some good RP, but no skills to support it, while I tend to the opposite.



Yeah that's quite a bit more challenging than what the AP says. And I can understand why your GM boosts the opposition, as official APs generally assume the PC's are not only built with very little optimization, but also that they're played as recklessly brave combatants without much tactical insight or teamwork. That said, there are of course exceptions to this, and for example RotR does include a few rather famously lethal encounters which may be challenging also for a stronger party.

(Coincidentally, my current "long-haul" home game also happen to be based on RotR, although with plenty of additions and modifications. And I'm certain that even though the PCs in my game were two levels below the recommended and the party temporarily reduced to three when entering the fortress (through other methods), they still would've utterly steamrolled that encounter without breaking a sweat if run as written.)

Yes, especially when considering the minimum level when this character would enter the game, with max ranks into SoL I don't think hiding a couple of daggers from a guard is even going to require you to make a skill check, even if said guards are of an unusually high level and decide to perform a proper strip search for some reason. And I strongly recommend you at least invest in the most basic first three or four ranged feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot), because even if your game had only included the "easy mode"combat encounters as written in RotR, I believe your Knife Master otherwise would have a high risk of becoming a liability rather than a resource in combat for your party.

Basically, any combat feat for which you qualify and don't need for meeting prerequisites of other options. Also, before I forget, I'm not good with rogues but I believe you'd need something like the Feint from Shadows talent to make good use of Cunning Feint.
THIS is the feat I was looking for ages, I remember seeing it once and never found it again, thank you :3



Well, I sorta suspected this was the case. And I'd still be a bit careful with a Magus, as it really plays in a different league in terms of power potential both in and outside of combat. (But regardless, my tip is to try and solve balance issues by other methods than staying away from certain classes, and especially from those with as low optimization ceilings as the ninja and swashbuckler. The best result is IME to have everyone agree on a certain defined general power span before starting the game, and then keep to that agreement regardless of class or build preferences. It does require everyone has a bit more experience and general system knowledge, but it seems that shouldn't be much of a problem for the players in your group.)

Warpriest and inquisitor are less obvious matches than the magus, and require more specific build tweaking with archetypes/domains/deity choices etc to suit, so I recommend you start with the magus. Have a look atKurald Galain's excellent Magus guide here in the Playground, a good place to find inspiration and to ask for tips and ideas on suitable magus options. Otherwise, I think the rogue concept you've outlined looks like a good start and could definitely match both the character concept and - with just a bit more combat prowess - also the general mechanical power you're looking for.

I^m probably just a VERY bad builder, but I just can't get a magus build right, it's either the "shocking grasp loophole" or a "I don't know what I'm doing anymore" situation, and I SURELY don't want to go the shocking grasp way, having an(other) spellcaster is really useful, but sometimes I like (for personal sadism or whatewer) to see my teammates suffer for the lack of cast per day on my wordcaster to teleport everyone away, because they didn't want to invest in wands or scrolls ;D

[Kurald Galain]

I just can't get a magus build right, it's either the "shocking grasp loophole" or a "I don't know what I'm doing anymore" situation,

We have a handbook for that... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus)

[Sinner505]

We have a handbook for that...

I've gone through your gudie endless times and I still can't manage to get what I wanted from this PC, it's a great and echaustive guide but for what I have in mind it's just... I dunno, too much?