Optimal Rogue ASI/Feat Progression

[Expected]

In your opinion, what is the best order to take ASI's/feats? Should I max a main ability score first and then take feats? These are the ASI's/feats I am considering:

Feature(s)
ASI (+2 Dex) [Rogue Level 8]
Fighting Style (Defense) [Fighter Level 1]
Second Wind [Fighter Level 1]

Feat(s)
Elven Accuracy (+1 Dex) [Rogue Level 4]
Lucky
Resilient (Con)
Skulker
War Caster

You'll probably notice that I dropped Sentinel. While the idea sounds effective, Rogues already have plenty of uses for their reaction. When would you take a feat/ASI? Why?

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

In your opinion, what is the best order to take ASI's/feats? Should I max a main ability score first and then take feats? These are the ASI's/feats I am considering:

Feature(s)
ASI (+2 Dex) [Rogue Level 8]
Fighting Style (Defense) [Fighter Level 1]
Second Wind [Fighter Level 1]

Feat(s)
Elven Accuracy (+1 Dex) [Rogue Level 4]
Lucky
Resilient (Con)
Skulker
War Caster

You'll probably notice that I dropped Sentinel. While the idea sounds effective, Rogues already have plenty of uses for their reaction. When would you take a feat/ASI? Why?

Honestly it depends on what you mean by optimal. Optimal damage output, skill monkeying, exploring, being the face? If you tell us what your rogue playstyle is we can help more, also which subclass you're going for.

For the ASI vs. feat argument there are a variety of benefits both ways, if your character idea hinges on that feat then go for it. If you like the way your character plays and don't really want to make any major alterations go for the ASI. Personally I love feats as they change the playstyle and feel of a character fairly drastically.

Sentinel is extremely effective on a melee rogue as it essentially doubles their DPR, add in a whip somewhere along the line and this is even more effective.

Elven accuracy is a good choice if you have an odd dex, which it sounds like you do however it only works when you have advantage so it's highly dependent on how your DM plays stealth in combat and how often your allies can give you advantage.

Lucky speaks for itself

Resilient Con is great to have but not necessarily required.

Skulker can be useful especially if you are the main scout for your party. however I've never seen it actually in play.

Warcaster: are you an arcane trickster? if yes it will see use. If no then no.

[Expected]

My character will be a High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue with 8-17-13-16-12-8, which is why I even considered War Caster. I dropped Sentinel from my build because Haste + ready action uses the reaction anyway and there are other reactions like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

[Expected]

I would be optimizing for scouting/trap disarming and damage/survivability in combat.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd actually replace the Resilient feat for Tough, as that would bump up your health by a considerable amount. You're already going to be deceptively tanky with Uncanny Dodge.

ASI, Sentinel, Tough, ASI, with the focus being Two Weapon Fighting, is probably the way I'd do it. It would give a large emphasis on both attacking and defending. Your high Dex will help with almost all traps in the game, and the Tough feat will make your failures less impactful while giving your Rogue levels a huge upgrade in health.

With TWF, you'll get more hits, more sneak attacks, and the fighting style will add about +3-5 damage vs. Dueling which gives +2. Otherwise, it's selling the +2 AC you get from a shield for an additional 1d6+(3 to 5) damage, or roughly 7 damage if assuming a 50% accuracy, plus the addition of a possible sneak attack.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

My character will be a High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue with 8-17-13-16-12-8, which is why I even considered War Caster. I dropped Sentinel from my build because Haste + ready action uses the reaction anyway and there are other reactions like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. I would be optimizing for scouting/trap disarming and damage/survivability in combat.

That is a hard choice. Personally I'd go Elven accuracy to even out that dex, Warcaster/skulker (if your DM does perception correctly skulker would be a godsend for traps.), Resilient: con to even out that, +2 Dex, warcaster/skulker, Lucky.
Arcane trickster with haste, man that's a nasty combo I love it and a solid reason not to grab sentinel

[Citan]

In your opinion, what is the best order to take ASI's/feats? Should I max a main ability score first and then take feats? These are the ASI's/feats I am considering:

Feature(s)
ASI (+2 Dex) [Rogue Level 8]
Fighting Style (Defense) [Fighter Level 1]
Second Wind [Fighter Level 1]

Feat(s)
Elven Accuracy (+1 Dex) [Rogue Level 4]
Lucky
Resilient (Con)
Skulker
War Caster

You'll probably notice that I dropped Sentinel. While the idea sounds effective, Rogues already have plenty of uses for their reaction. When would you take a feat/ASI? Why?


My character will be a High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue with 8-17-13-16-12-8, which is why I even considered War Caster. I dropped Sentinel from my build because Haste + ready action uses the reaction anyway and there are other reactions like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
Hi!
First, disclaimer: Fighter level is a big waste the way you take it:
+1 AC through Defense is something you could get many other ways.
Constitution proficiency is wasted either because you don't grab it first level or because you take Resilient Constitution.

Especially considering that...
- You're a High Elf (includes "being an Elf").
- You have a pretty good INT.
Either stay straight Rogue, or take two levels of Bladesinger Wizard, like...
Rogue 5 - Wizard 2 - Rogue X.
Bladesinger will boost all your Arcane Tricksterness in a big way.
- 3 more cantrips (considering you'll have Invisible Mage Hand and probably Booming Blade and Minor Illusion, I'd suggest Message, Mold Earth and Ray of Frost).
- 8 first level spells immediately (so you can "free" your Rogue spells later) and potential to learn even more, including Mage Armor (remember the "+1 AC" ?).
- Caster level +2
- +3 boost to AC and Concentration.
- +10 feet speed boost.

Besides that, feat-wise, since from what I understand you plan on being a melee dual-wielder, I'd rather take Elven Accuracy, Resilient: Constitution and Mobile as priorities.

If you're still set on Fighter, rather pick it at start level (and get Resilient: Dexterity instead later), and pick Two-Weapon Fighting Style.
That way it's a decent dip and can also be combined with Wizard dip. :)

[JellyPooga]

With your stats, I'd take my 1st ASI as +1 Dex and +1 Con. That'll sort you out nicely with 18 Dex and 14 Con right up to the mid game, if not the late game as well. After that I'd start in on Feats; as I mentioned in the other thread you made for this character, Sentinel does not compete with your other reactions like Uncanny Dodge, but rather it complements them due to the circumstances of what triggers those reactions. On the subject of Haste, it's very much worth bearing in mind that you aren't always going to be able to use that particular trick; for one, you have very limited spell slots of 3rd or higher and aren't even looking at picking up Haste in the first place until you're hitting the late game at lvl.13 (and that's without multiclassing); that's a long time to wait when you could be playing with Sentinel as early as 4th or 8th.

Secondly, you have to maintain concentration; without Con proficiency and not wanting to utilise your reaction for Uncanny Dodge when you've got the Haste trick up your sleeve, it's creating a tougher decision than you really need to be forcing upon yourself. Better to let the party Wizard cast Haste on you; not only is he going to be less likely to fail his concentration saves due to likely having War Caster or Resilient (Con), but he's not going to be in the thick of the fight and therefore taking less incoming attacks. A Rogue with an active Haste spell is a dangerous foe, but ideally he doesn't want to cast it on himself; not only is there the liability of spell failure (and its deleterious consequences), but it's a heavy resource cost.

To expedite my advice;
4th - ASI (+1 Dex, +1 Con)
8th - Sentinel
10th - Skulker (for anyone with Darkvision, this is golden. Especially if you're going for a scouty type)
12th - Lucky (This is a good time to grab Lucky; in the mid-late game, the game really starts ramping up the challenge and you'll want that super-advantage)
16th - +2 Dex
19th - (with multiclassing Fighter 2, which if you're multiclassing at all, you might as well; Action Surge is worth much more than 1d6 Sneak Attack and an ASI, you won't get this)

You'll note that I don't include Elven Accuracy, nor Resilent or War Caster. The latter two because I get the impression you're going to be on the front line and even with those feats, your risk of losing concentration is high; better to stick to non-concentration buffs and immediate effects IMO. As for Elven Accuracy, leaving aside how ridiculously effective it can be, I simply don't rate it for a Rogue. With no Extra Attack, you don't get as much out of it as, say, a PAM Fighter or GWM Barbarian does. Just my opinion though.

[Expected]

That is excellent advice, Citan and JellyPooga. I will reconsider my Fighter dip and do Arcane Trickster 18/Bladesinger Wizard 2. Also, I will take Sentinel after all--you made a good point about Haste + ready action. It also frees up my concentration for Magical Ambush + Fear/Hypnotic Pattern or other useful spells. Thank you very much!

[Specter]

I take my most essentialfeat at level 4 (or1 if human), and leave the other(s) for when I have a maxed DEX.

[Expected]

I take my most essentialfeat at level 4 (or1 if human), and leave the other(s) for when I have a maxed DEX.

I agree. Since I am hoping for tri-vantage crits with Elven Accuracy (and I also get +1 Dex), I think I'll take that at level 4. I really enjoyed reading your Arcane Trickster guide, by the way. It was one of, if not the main, reasons why I decided to pump Int and make use of Magical Ambush + Fear/Hypnotic Pattern and make Spell Thief somewhat useful because it increases the Spell Save DC. Thank you again for the great advice!

[Specter]

I agree. Since I am hoping for tri-vantage crits with Elven Accuracy (and I also get +1 Dex), I think I'll take that at level 4. I really enjoyed reading your Arcane Trickster guide, by the way. It was one of, if not the main, reasons why I decided to pump Int and make use of Magical Ambush + Fear/Hypnotic Pattern and make Spell Thief somewhat useful because it increases the Spell Save DC. Thank you again for the great advice!

Hey, anytime!