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Godna
2007-09-16, 02:42 AM
My DM has issued a challenge to my friend and I. This Challenge consists of defeating a level 8 monk with two level 4 characters. My friend is probably going to chose a paladin and horribly gimp him because that is what he always does. so what i need to do is make a character from Core material only at level 4 no LA+ that will be able to kill a level 8 monk quickly any suggestions? I was thinking of going with a wizard, but i didn't know what do from there.

Knowing My DM the Monk will have the max health rolls and rolled stats with nothing less than a 12 so if there is any suggestions i would be glad to hear them

edit: I just heard him ask another player where a monk would put the following scores 16,15,14,16,13,14

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-16, 02:57 AM
Any eighth-level character -- even a monk -- should be able to mop the floor with a pair of level-fours. Without even trying.

But that assumes they're played correctly.

What you need is a melee person with a strong Will save (Barbarian might work, for the rage bonus), to avoid his Stunning Blow. That's if you want to go melee.

I would not recommend going caster in this instance. Fourth level offers nothing decent (at least for Core) in the way of save-less spells, and any spells with saves, you can count on a monk to make 'em. And they have evasion, so even reflex-for-half spells won't hurt them.

Your best bet, I think, is to go with an archer. Probably a rogue. You want to hit from far away and possibly up a tree, and you want to deal big damage in the process. You do not want to get up close and personal, because the monk will destroy you. But the monk is purely a melee combatant; if you keep your distance, he can't do squat.

Another good thing to do with a ranged combatant is to grab a horse, and take Mounted Archery. That way you can definitely ensure that you can attack while keeping your distance; he'll have 50-foot movement speed, compared to a horse's 60-foot, so you should be in the clear.

Invest in potions of invisibility, so that his big dex and wisdom AC bonuses will count for nothing. Greater Invisibility, if you can afford it -- really, all you need is the money for a light warhorse, a crossbow, and about 200 bolts, so the rest can go to invisibility pots.

Featwise: Take Improved Initiative. If the monk wins init, he might stun you senseless in the first round, which spells "game over." Take your archery feats: point-blank shot, and precise shot. That should cover your first-level, human, and third-level feats. If you go Fighter rather than Rogue, also take Weapon Focus and Specialization at 2 and 4, respectively.

Skills: Hide, hide, hide. Move silently, move silently, move silently. Spot and Listen, maybe, if you worry about the monk being clever. Tumble, to get away from him without giving him an AoO. Climb, maybe, to get up a tree, and Balance to stay there.

In general, just remember to keep your distance, and there shouldn't be anything he can do.

AslanCross
2007-09-16, 03:01 AM
I don't think a Lv 4 Wizard will have enough spells to kill a max HP monk who will have at least 64 HP (and most certainly more). Since his saves will be better, I don't think low-level wizard is the way to go. I'd go with a human trip fighter.
Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, etc. Then again you might not have enough feats to complete that.

Ranged might be a better option, indeed.

Dhavaer
2007-09-16, 03:01 AM
Stunning Fist has a Fortitude save, and Monk's don't lose their Wis-to-AC against invisible opponents.

That said, I agree about archery. Since you're unlikely to catch him flatfooted, it would probably be best to be a Ranger (favoured enemy human or orc, horse animal companion) or a Fighter (Weapon Spec. Composite Longbow).

Godna
2007-09-16, 03:29 AM
Remember i do also have aid from a level 4 paladin

Zincorium
2007-09-16, 03:29 AM
We do need to know what the starting conditions (distance, whether long duration spells can be considered cast beforehand, etc.) to really give good advice. A list of books you can use, besides the core 3, would be helpful as well.

That said, go barbarian. Orcish, if possible. Take improved grapple. Do the 'I'll hold him and you stab him' maneuver while raging.

Monks, despite what people tend to claim, comparatively suck horribly at grappling, due to the fact that they have worse checks at it than any full BAB class. The damage they do is irrelevant if they never win. A barbarian at level 4 will be 2 points behind in BAB, which is automatically made up for by the raging. If you start with a higher strength score, you'll likely win most of the time. If your DM doesn't take improved grapple for the monk's bonus feat, he's toast.

Oh, and definitely get potions of bear strength for extra goodness.

Meanwhile, tell your friend to max strength as well and use a greatsword and power attack for full. Denied his dexterity bonus from grappling, and therefore wisdom and class bonus, to AC, the monk will be an incredibly easy to hit. Death comes quickly after that's accomplished

If he decides to use escape artist, no big. You've still denied him a standard action each round, so no attacks against either of you, and your friend still has a full round to either charge the monk or make a full attack depending on whether he moves.

Ramos
2007-09-16, 03:33 AM
A 4th level sorceror could probably do it with Levitate. Just levitate then feed the monk Magic Missiles and arrows until it dies.

Hold Person could also work-a will save DC of 15 to allow your friend to Coup-De-Grace the monk is good as well.

Godna
2007-09-16, 03:37 AM
No chances to buy items or cast spells before hand DM just told me

Ramos
2007-09-16, 03:42 AM
In this case, the monk should also not have items. A +8 will save means you have a good chance to blind him with glitterdust or hold him with hold person.

Godna
2007-09-16, 03:44 AM
DM says all the monk will have is his fists and robe and our characters will have our armor, weapon, ammo(if it applies), and any spells memorized.
Armor and weapon are of choice non magical or poisend

edit: I think i'll go for the Sorcerer route that should work as it also proves to my DM i shouldnt be near spell casting types

Kurald Galain
2007-09-16, 04:13 AM
Take a battle sorcerer or beguiler, and hit him with Save-Or-Lose spells until he drops. If you start out at range and/or have a decent AC (with your armored caster ability) odds are in your favor.

Godna
2007-09-16, 04:33 AM
Take a battle sorcerer or beguiler, and hit him with Save-Or-Lose spells until he drops. If you start out at range and/or have a decent AC (with your armored caster ability) odds are in your favor.

Are those core options and/or available at level 4?

lord_khaine
2007-09-16, 04:48 AM
Monks, despite what people tend to claim, comparatively suck horribly at grappling, due to the fact that they have worse checks at it than any full BAB class. The damage they do is irrelevant if they never win. A barbarian at level 4 will be 2 points behind in BAB, which is automatically made up for by the raging. If you start with a higher strength score, you'll likely win most of the time. If your DM doesn't take improved grapple for the monk's bonus feat, he's toast.


despite what some people claim, monks are very good grappler, when build for it, since improved grapple makes up for the BAB difference until around lv 17, and having more grapple attempts from flurry of blows beats a minor difference of 1-2 any day.

seriously, that contest is rigget, a lv 8 monk is a challenge for an entire lv 4 party, and you are only of it, even though the monk is more weakend by no magic items than you are, then i still think he will crush you in melee combat.
the solution as it has allready been said is to fight him indirect with either magic or ranget attacks, though deflect arrows would make it a bit difficult for a normal archer.

Reinboom
2007-09-16, 05:17 AM
I would recommend giving the Druid a look as well for this. The animal companion is rather handy for getting in extra damage or effects in the middle of duels, as well as being a meat shield and another thing they must remove.

Also, making a caster level check for casting level 3 spells from scrolls is a relatively easy check (I believe you only fail on a 1 at level 4 for caster level 5 spells - level 3s). -- IE: Fly (if you do the sorcerer route).

I believe the route to success here is to abuse your magic items options on top of being a spellcaster.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-16, 05:22 AM
Battle Sorc is on d20srd.org, Beguiler is in PHB2. Yes, save-or-lose spells are available as early as level 1 (e.g. sleep, color spray) and if your DM doesn't allow battle sorc, a bard or regular sorc with a decent Con will do in a pinch.

Godna
2007-09-16, 05:35 AM
I believe the route to success here is to abuse your magic items options on top of being a spellcaster.

No Magic Items and he has vowed if i even say the word druid he has torches and lighter fluid (he showed me both) other wise i might be one


My current plan is use levitate to fly out of range and magic missile him while the pally attacks him

dr.cello
2007-09-16, 05:43 AM
Whoa. Your DM is totally gimping you. Pitting you against an eighth level character which is basically designed not to have equipment, and giving you sub-par starting gold, as well, while you are both half his level? That's just ridiculous.

Reinboom
2007-09-16, 05:43 AM
No Magic Items and he has vowed if i even say the word druid he has torches and lighter fluid (he showed me both) other wise i might be one


My current plan is use levitate to fly out of range and magic missile him while the pally attacks him

Ah, hmn.

don't put yourself higher than 40 ft, you may need to get down quickly.
Also, make sure you use a crossbow with... suggesting you miss 2 out of 3... 1d8 average, taking low average (4 instead of 4.5), him having a max of 88 hp.... at least 66 bolts.

Godna
2007-09-16, 05:54 AM
So Bring a crossbow as a back up weapon?

Alright heres how a round by round should look

1st Round Levitate 20 feet in air
2nd Round Rise 20 more feet(optional?) and cast Magic Missile
3rd Round Magic Missile
4th-?? Round Repeat 3rd as needed till out of missile or till monk dead?

If All Else rope trick? and repeat?

kemmotar
2007-09-16, 05:59 AM
The barbarian rogue combo might also be good...also VoP might be a good idea for both chars since its just a duel...the grapple stab routine should also work with a max str barbarian...or maybe a sorcerer to hold person and then the barbarian can stab away(sorcerer can also buff barbarian with str:smallbiggrin: )

Godna
2007-09-16, 06:09 AM
VoP? isnt that poverty thing from BoED

Krelon
2007-09-16, 06:17 AM
I also think that your best chance is to go sorceror (or a school specialist mage, see idea below) and stand behind the paladin.
Paladin with shield and total defense heals himself until the monk gets hit by some nasty spell.

choose which nasty spell you like, I assume as human sorc you have a CHA of 16
You know only 1 L2 spell... so choose wisely.

L2:
blindness (he saves with 6+CON modifier vs. 15), once the monk is permanently blind you can move away from him and use ranged weapons from distance. He shouldn't be able to find you. you have 4 tries with 30 to 40% chance of success, depending on his CON

or:
ghoul touch (he saves with 6+CON modifier vs. 15), once paralyzed just coup de grace. Note, the paralyzis effect comes from negative energy, he may be immune to the secondary sickness effect but not to the paralyzis. Only problem is that you have to deliver a touch, therefore it needs to be combined with:
L1:
enlarge person, cast on paladin: he will get +2str, 10ft. reach and weapon damage for large creatures.
if your paladin has high STR, improved grapple and you enlarge him, he will probably grapple with +4base,+4improved,+4large,+highSTR,+1STRbonus vs. +6base,+4improved,+avg.STR.

while they grapple keep ghoul touching the monk

other interesting spells include:

L2: hideous laughter (he saves with 8+WIS modifier vs. 15) so chances are low. However if you hit that's 4 rounds for the paladin to powerattack a prone target that doesn't strike back.

at L1 other interesting spells include:
expeditious retreat + magic missile (run then move+cast, run then shoot and so on)


here an idea that gives you a chance even if you are alone:

if you know the fight starts more than the charge distance away or if you are sure that the paladin can tank for 1 round:
if possible (point buy?)go for a gray elf necromancer with int 18 that goes up to 20 (the int bonus of the race gives you +2)
your spells per day are:
L 0: 4
L 1: 3 + 2 (from INT) +1 (specialist)
L 2: 2 + 1 (from INT) +1 (specialist)

your spells:
expeditiuos retreat you are faster than the monk by 10ft.
spectral hand(necro) gives you a range of 140ft for touch attacks
ghoul touch(necro) make him helpless

your feats:
scribe scroll scribe yourself more ghoul touches
L1: spell focus necromancy
L2: greater spell focus necromancy

now let's say you have int 20 and he has con 16

your ghoul touch has a save DC of 10+2(level)+5(Int)+2(gr.focus)
that is 19 for his 6+3(CON) = +9 save.

your problem may be delivering the touch (assuming you have STR10): +2(bab) +2(hand bonus)
that is d20+4 vs. his AC of 10+3(WIS)+3(DEX)+1(monk) = 17

your strategy:
cast exp. retreat, move out of charge range, cast spectral hand, cast ghoul touch until you can coup de grace him

chance of success per round: roll 13 or more on d20 for touch than he rolling 9 or less on his save = 0.4 * 0.45 = 18%

with INT 20 you'll have 3 tries: cumulative chance= (1-.82^3)= 45%

you cannot increase your INT any further but if you manage STR 12 and your scribe scroll feat allows you to use at least one additional scroll, the chances will go up: 45% for the touch, and one more attempt at ghoul touch:
cumulative chance = 1- (1-(.45*.45)^3)) = 60%

if you can combine this with enlarge person (for the paladin) you have a double strategy. Add magic missiles for the finishing touch.

Godna
2007-09-16, 06:54 AM
*sniped a crapton of awesome*

your feats:
scribe scroll scribe yourself more ghoul touches
L1: spell focus necromancy
L2: greater spell focus necromancy


I just asked my dm (hes my roommate) wont let me take item creation feats or skills so thats out

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 07:08 AM
Wizards get Scribe Scroll automatically though. If you can't have that, ask for another feat to replace it.

Godna
2007-09-16, 07:12 AM
Whoa. Your DM is totally gimping you. Pitting you against an eighth level character which is basically designed not to have equipment, and giving you sub-par starting gold, as well, while you are both half his level? That's just ridiculous.

Well you have got to realize in his campaigns ,which have used less and less material as they go on, I been hard to bring into balance with the group as any class because he designs them for the group which play horrible characters ,fighter with 12 str but 18 cha and 14wis with 8 in all else if i remember correct was one of the least painful to remember (wizard with 8 intelligence caused me to be unable to play due to laughing at him constiently) , this cause the DM to think the monk class i was playing at time to be the SUPER BROKEN CLASS and he proposed the challenge then and there and well this is the outcome


edit: I asked about the extra feat and the DM said no unless his monk can so i said i'll pass on that

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 07:17 AM
this cause the DM to think the monk class i was playing at time to be the SUPER BROKEN CLASS and he proposed the challenge then and there and well this is the outcome


edit: I asked about the extra feat and the DM said no unless his monk can so i said i'll pass on that

Heh, I thought Monk's were a SUPER BROKEN CLASS too for a bit,:smallredface: with its strong attacks and OK AC, as well as all those other random things. Or, so I thought:smallfrown: Then others revieled the horrors of MAD to me.

*shudders*


Regardless, you have to have that feat. It's a class feature. If you can't have it, then he can't have one of his class features either.

Also, have you considered flaws?

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 07:40 AM
I was goign to say go Sorcerer but they don't have enough spells known.

Go Wizard and get Rope Trick and Summon Swarm as your second level spells.
Cast Rope Trick and then use Summon Swarm to summon a Swarm of Spiders.

The Monk can't hurt the swarm at all.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm

EDIT: Whats the XP for soloing a level 8 Monk at level 4?

Kurald Galain
2007-09-16, 07:55 AM
But the monk can outrun the swarm rather easily, and hiding in a Rope Trick probably constitutes a defeat.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 08:07 AM
Well, assuming that they are in a walled arena, the monk can't run forever. Besides, with your logic he could just run forever and never got caught, thus you would never "Win" unless you had amazing ranged.

Saph
2007-09-16, 08:14 AM
Nothing that involves Levitate or Rope Trick is going to work, unless the monk is played completely stupidly. All the Monk has to do is move away. An 8th level monk has a base speed of 50 feet. One round's movement (run or double move into cover) will put him out of range of Magic Missile, Summon Swarm, or any other spell that doesn't have a range of Long. Using an arcane caster is probably a bad idea in general, since the Monk has a good chance of making his saves against your spells and all he has to do is hit you once with Stunning Fist and you're gone.

Also remember that Monks get Wholeness of Body at level 7, which gives them extra healing. So trying to outlast this guy at long range is a bad plan.

I think Zincorium's solution is the best. Go Barbarian, probably half-orc, and charge him, along with the paladin. Both of you have good Fort saves, so you have a good chance against the monk's Stunning Fist. If you take Improved Grapple as well, you'll have a grapple modifier of:

+4 (18 str) +2 (raging) +4 (BAB) +4 (Imp. Grapple) = +14. Unless the Monk has Improved Grapple or a very good Escape Artist, odds are against him getting out. While you hold him, the paladin stabs him to death. Simple and effective, and plays to your strengths.

Make sure your characters both have horses, in case the monk runs.


Go Wizard and get Rope Trick and Summon Swarm as your second level spells. Cast Rope Trick and then use Summon Swarm to summon a Swarm of Spiders.

Doesn't work.


From the SRD:

Rope Trick

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.

Summon Swarm has a duration of Concentration + 2 rounds. Even assuming you can cast the Rope Trick, then the Summon Swarm, then get up the rope without the Monk doing anything to stop you, the swarm will vanish two rounds afterwards.


Whats the XP for soloing a level 8 Monk at level 4?

In this case, none, the wizard's dead. :P

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 08:31 AM
Avast, Saph, you fiend! You destroyed our logic!:smallannoyed:

But if your partner's a paladin, I agree with the grapple idea, while he full power attacks. You can also try getting a light weapon, so you can attack while grappling too.

Saph
2007-09-16, 08:34 AM
Avast, Saph, you fiend! You destroyed our logic!:smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:


But if your partner's a paladin, I agree with the grapple idea, while he full power attacks. You can also try getting a light weapon, so you can attack while grappling too.

It's not a bad idea, but I think you'd be better off pinning. A pinned opponent has -4 to AC, meaning the pally can full power attack and be almost sure of hitting. Also, even if the monk escapes the pin, he's still grappled.

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 08:37 AM
Yes, but is it not possible to attack while the opponent is pinned?
And shouldn't the monk be able to hit the barbarian while they grapple?
:smallconfused:

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 08:38 AM
Nothing that involves Levitate or Rope Trick is going to work, unless the monk is played completely stupidly. All the Monk has to do is move away. An 8th level monk has a base speed of 50 feet. One round's movement (run or double move into cover) will put him out of range of Magic Missile, Summon Swarm, or any other spell that doesn't have a range of Long. Using an arcane caster is probably a bad idea in general, since the Monk has a good chance of making his saves against your spells and all he has to do is hit you once with Stunning Fist and you're gone.
If you can run away than the wizard can cast mount and flee faster. I was assuming an arena.


Also remember that Monks get Wholeness of Body at level 7, which gives them extra healing. So trying to outlast this guy at long range is a bad plan.
And spider swarms win because of their special abilities, the monks healing doesn't matter in that case.


Doesn't work.



Summon Swarm has a duration of Concentration + 2 rounds. Even assuming you can cast the Rope Trick, then the Summon Swarm, then get up the rope without the Monk doing anything to stop you, the swarm will vanish two rounds afterwards.



In this case, none, the wizard's dead. :P

- Saph
Actually the swarm doesn't go away because you are in the rope trick. An inability to cast the spell doesn't mean that you cant' continue to concentrate on the spell.

But instead of rope trick use alter self. Or even levitate. Or just ride around on your horse.

And in the OP's case he has the paladin to keep the monk occupied while your swarm goes to work. Although the other person is not being to intelligent if goign paladin.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 08:45 AM
Well, don't forget that the paladin has minor healing, and I think this is only for the one battle, so even if they do normally suck, you could make to specifically combat this monk.

In my opinion, TC should ask to go gestalt to have a chance at winning. OR try to summon that DAMNED crab!

Saph
2007-09-16, 08:51 AM
But instead of rope trick use alter self. Or even levitate. Or just ride around on your horse.

And in the OP's case he has the paladin to keep the monk occupied while your swarm goes to work.

All of these tactics assume that the monk is being played like an idiot. He can have a horse as well as you, and is he really going to sit around fighting a heavily armoured paladin while the wizard is sitting through the 1-round casting time of Summon Swarm?

And then, if you somehow manage to get the swarm off, is he going to just sit around and let them kill him? The wizard has no control over the swarm once it's summoned, so the swarm will proceed to attack the paladin, the horses, random passers-by, or anything else.

Besides, swarms can be killed easily with fire or area attacks. A lit torch does 1d3, a lantern 1d4. Alchemist's fire or acid works as well. A spider swarm has 9 hp. A level 8 monk has a HP in the fifties. Basically, the only way the swarm is going to kill him is if he doesn't run, doesn't use tools, doesn't move, and agrees to lose.

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 09:07 AM
Avast, Saph, you fiend! You destroyed our logic!:smallannoyed:

Yes, I am quoting myself, due to the fact that Saph has once again managed to singlehandedly prove us all wrong.:smallmad:

Saph, spare us your divine wrath, please!:smallsigh:

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 09:20 AM
All of these tactics assume that the monk is being played like an idiot. He can have a horse as well as you, and is he really going to sit around fighting a heavily armoured paladin while the wizard is sitting through the 1-round casting time of Summon Swarm?

And then, if you somehow manage to get the swarm off, is he going to just sit around and let them kill him? The wizard has no control over the swarm once it's summoned, so the swarm will proceed to attack the paladin, the horses, random passers-by, or anything else.

Besides, swarms can be killed easily with fire or area attacks. A lit torch does 1d3, a lantern 1d4. Alchemist's fire or acid works as well. A spider swarm has 9 hp. A level 8 monk has a HP in the fifties. Basically, the only way the swarm is going to kill him is if he doesn't run, doesn't use tools, doesn't move, and agrees to lose.

- Saph

The monk doesn't have any tools, and neither do the PC's. It cant' hurt the swarm at all.

The Monk has no horse either.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 09:24 AM
Why can't the monk take a horse? If the PCs can, why not the monk? Keep in mind, he has just as much money, more even.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 09:33 AM
Why can't the monk take a horse? If the PCs can, why not the monk? Keep in mind, he has just as much money, more even.
The OP said that each person gets the clothes on their backs, 1 non magical weapon, and any other necessities for their class (such as spell component pouch and spell book).

The wizard can get a horse with a mount spell. The Paladin gets one as a class feature. The monk doesn't. He has clothes and a single non magical weapon.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 09:38 AM
Oh. Whoops:smallredface:

Doesn't riding a horse give a hefty penalty to concentration checks though? This would cause difficuties in spell casting.

Besides, it seems to me that the barbarian is the best choice, after Saph came in.

Godna
2007-09-16, 09:47 AM
I like the summon swarm idea what page is the spell on so i can read it?

By the way the monk will be playing like a "very mentally challenged moron"(I do respect my dm as a dm but not when it comes to tactics or knowing class abilities) he doesnt even know about the wholeness of body.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 09:52 AM
Well, if you two combined are CR 2, the monk is CR 5, maybe 4 if played horribly, possible even down to 3, so if played well you actually stand a chance. :smallcool:

Silkenfist
2007-09-16, 10:01 AM
The OP said that each person gets the clothes on their backs, 1 non magical weapon, and any other necessities for their class (such as spell component pouch and spell book).

The wizard can get a horse with a mount spell. The Paladin gets one as a class feature. The monk doesn't. He has clothes and a single non magical weapon.

He does? The Animal Companion is received at lvl 5, so no class feature horsey for your friend.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 10:05 AM
He does? The Animal Companion is received at lvl 5, so no class feature horsey for your friend.

The other is a paladin, not a ranger.

And to Solo, they're only LEVEL 4!

Solo
2007-09-16, 10:06 AM
The other is a paladin, not a ranger.

And to Solo, they're only LEVEL 4!

I was thinking you could do it via scroll, but that would have gotten expensive.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 10:07 AM
Yes, and they get no magic items either, so no scrolls. Besides, the DM is even restricting the free Scribe Scroll from being a level 1 wizard.

Godna
2007-09-16, 10:09 AM
He is Also allowing our choice of NON-Magical armor



edit: The Paladin Chose Full-Plate and a Sycth

Solo
2007-09-16, 10:11 AM
W to the TF?

That makes no sense. He tips the scales in favor of the monk by giving it higher levels and max hp, but isn't content and decides to gimp the other classes?

Well, if he isn't giving scribe scroll, I'd go for Sorcerer, with Alter Self (for flying)

Let me think of some good first level spells...

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 10:14 AM
Solo, incase you have missed the rest of the topic, we've pretty much decided on one of two things.

1. Barbarian grappler, while paladin full power attacks

2. Wizard/Sorcerer, summon swarms and magic missile.

Solo
2007-09-16, 10:18 AM
I suppose that's the only way to go....

Riffington
2007-09-16, 10:23 AM
Bring a backup level 8 fighter (or cleric, or Barbarian, or Sorceror) to the session. That way after the monk mops up the floor with you, you can prove the problem was that level 8s are way stronger than 2 level 4s rather than being a problem with monks.

During the fight as written I'd probably go with the grapple or maybe a tripmonkey build.


Of note, one of the most memorable characters in any D&D campaign I've been in was a fighter with Cha 18, Str 14. Ah, Elliot...

Godna
2007-09-16, 10:26 AM
Would you guys like a write up of what happens after this fight?





Was there a cowardly wizard in that group?

Saph
2007-09-16, 10:32 AM
Would you guys like a write up of what happens after this fight?

Sure! It's always fun to hear how these kind of class challenge things pan out.

- Saph

Krelon
2007-09-16, 10:35 AM
alter self and fly is not a bad idea.
you might still try to enlarge the paladin first to improve his grapple.

not allowing a single scroll with a class feature scribe scroll feat really sucks, but hey you can still do the wizard (elves can use longbows) and try the ghoul touch thingy if the paladin grapples or rather fly up and shoot with magic missiles and your bow if the paladin cannot grapple.

the monks must choose deflect arrows OR improved grapple, right?

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 10:42 AM
What can you Alter Self into that can burrow?

Solo
2007-09-16, 10:51 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176246

An Asabi from MoF?


Saaay..... if the caster's race was a lesser Assimar, or he took the Otherworldy feat, couldn't he make blatant abuse of Alter Self?

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-16, 11:00 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176246

An Asabi from MoF?


Saaay..... if the caster's race was a lesser Assimar, or he took the Otherworldy feat, couldn't he make blatant abuse of Alter Self?

Yes.

Euphoric Imp has 50 foot fly with perfect maneuverability.

Riffington
2007-09-16, 11:06 AM
Was there a cowardly wizard in that group?

I wouldn't say cowardly per se. Scared of fire, yes (an unfortunate accident involving a cauldron in his parents' basement). But not of most other things - and with an altogether unhealthy interest in extraplanar creatures.

UserClone
2007-09-16, 11:41 AM
How about a Ranger with Distracting Attack and a Rogue, both of whom max their climb, climb a tree, and shoot the crap out of the monk until he dies/goes away?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 11:45 AM
By the way, when is this fight happening?

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-16, 12:45 PM
Your DM is a doofus. Not only is he taking a level that should be able to destroy you, but he's maximizing the circumstances for his character and minimizing them for yours. Tell him if you don't get to have any items, the monk doesn't get to have any attacks. And if your wizard doesn't get Scribe Scroll, he doesn't get Stunning Fist.

What I'm getting here is that your DM's saying, "Find me any circumstances wherein two fourth-levels can beat an eighth-level monk." And you say, "Okay, here," and he says, "Well, no, those circumstances don't count." He's trying to prove some sort of point or another, but all he's really doing is proving that the DM can always win if he wants to, by unscrupulous use of Rule Zero.

Make him make all of his rolls in front of you, not behind a DM screen. Judging by his stats, he seems like a cheater. Not a roll-fudger; that's a legitimate DM trick for preventing TPK's. He's a cheater.

Darth Mario
2007-09-16, 02:50 PM
So, what does your DM say the purpose of this exersize is, anyways? Is he trying to prove the monk is broken, as I seem to understand from your previous posts? If so, this may be the most poorly designed scenario I can imagine. Having to give something tons of bonuses (4 level difference, better items, some classes don't get their features) doesn't prove it's broken, it proves it sucks.

I agree with ^. Put your foot down about your gear options. Make him make rolls in front of you, or if he doesn't, don't make rolls in front of him (if he cheats, have the Pally roll a crit with that x4 Scythe he's got).

And take the grappler Barbarian. I think it's your only chance of survival here.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-16, 05:16 PM
Your DM is a doofus. Not only is he taking a level that should be able to destroy you, but he's maximizing the circumstances for his character and minimizing them for yours.
Except, not. It's pretty well proven on the internet that, despite popular belief, monks are more dependent on their equipment than other characters are.

Of course, that a single level-8 characters of most classes can generally beat two level-4 characters does not actually say anything about that level-8 char being broken. My level-10 fighter can beat up several dozen level-1 kobolds without breaking a sweat; oh noes, ban the fighter because it's a broken class!!1!!!1

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-16, 05:20 PM
Yes, but I'm getting the sense that this is supposed to be a legitamate challenge, not a "Monks are t3h broken!!11!one!!" showcase.

Funkyodor
2007-09-17, 08:29 AM
I agree that your DM is continuing to stack the encounter in favor of the higher level character. If he allowed gear then the 8th level monk would probably have double the gold that both the 4th levelers have combined. I agree that removing class features without compensation is cheesy, but on the flip side, how much xp would you say the 4th levelers have? Just enough to hit 4th? 100 pts more? 200 pts more? Item creation could put you back a level which might not be worth it.

If it goes poorly for you then having a detailed list of the situation and the advantages given to the 8th level character / abilities removed from the 4th level characters might be a good idea. Could take the wind from the sails of his arguement.

Mr. Moogle
2007-09-17, 08:57 AM
Any eighth-level character -- even a monk -- should be able to mop the floor with a pair of level-fours. Without even trying.

But that assumes they're played correctly.

What you need is a melee person with a strong Will save (Barbarian might work, for the rage bonus), to avoid his Stunning Blow. That's if you want to go melee.

I would not recommend going caster in this instance. Fourth level offers nothing decent (at least for Core) in the way of save-less spells, and any spells with saves, you can count on a monk to make 'em. And they have evasion, so even reflex-for-half spells won't hurt them.

Your best bet, I think, is to go with an archer. Probably a rogue. You want to hit from far away and possibly up a tree, and you want to deal big damage in the process. You do not want to get up close and personal, because the monk will destroy you. But the monk is purely a melee combatant; if you keep your distance, he can't do squat.

Another good thing to do with a ranged combatant is to grab a horse, and take Mounted Archery. That way you can definitely ensure that you can attack while keeping your distance; he'll have 50-foot movement speed, compared to a horse's 60-foot, so you should be in the clear.

Invest in potions of invisibility, so that his big dex and wisdom AC bonuses will count for nothing. Greater Invisibility, if you can afford it -- really, all you need is the money for a light warhorse, a crossbow, and about 200 bolts, so the rest can go to invisibility pots.

Featwise: Take Improved Initiative. If the monk wins init, he might stun you senseless in the first round, which spells "game over." Take your archery feats: point-blank shot, and precise shot. That should cover your first-level, human, and third-level feats. If you go Fighter rather than Rogue, also take Weapon Focus and Specialization at 2 and 4, respectively.

Skills: Hide, hide, hide. Move silently, move silently, move silently. Spot and Listen, maybe, if you worry about the monk being clever. Tumble, to get away from him without giving him an AoO. Climb, maybe, to get up a tree, and Balance to stay there.

In general, just remember to keep your distance, and there shouldn't be anything he can do.


With a crossbow you can only make one attack around, what about deflect arrows. He'll just deflect every arrow you try to hit him with.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-17, 11:08 AM
Is your DM going to have a chance of modifying his character upon seeing yours? If not, he may well go for the Stunning Fist path and overlook grappling. The Barbarian really is your best shot; both to win (You would havea pretty good chance) and to prove that monks, in fact, suck (It would be a genuine win instead of spellcaster-nova-ing cheese and it would have a better chance of success).


[Retrospective Edit due to Krelon's Post]: The Barbarian doesn't look like he's cheating, the wizard does. Even if they use the same proportion of their daily resources (In this case, all of them), the Barbarian makes the Monk look like he has a chance.

Krelon
2007-09-17, 12:31 PM
yeah, if he can make his after you, you are screwed.

@Dr.Weasel: hmm.. if a barbarian has better chances to win than a mage, how can the mage be cheesy and the barbarian not?

Anyway, maybe you should go both barbarians and try grappling together or one barbarian and one mage who gives him bull strength, enlarge person and has one or two last chance 'save or die spells'. I'm still thinking ghoul touch is your best chance as a spell caster because the monk is alone and paralyzed = coup de grace, if it works. Shooting will not work, probably.

Duke of URL
2007-09-17, 12:51 PM
My DM has issued a challenge to my friend and I. This Challenge consists of defeating a level 8 monk with two level 4 characters. My friend is probably going to chose a paladin and horribly gimp him because that is what he always does. so what i need to do is make a character from Core material only at level 4 no LA+ that will be able to kill a level 8 monk quickly any suggestions? I was thinking of going with a wizard, but i didn't know what do from there.

Knowing My DM the Monk will have the max health rolls and rolled stats with nothing less than a 12 so if there is any suggestions i would be glad to hear them

edit: I just heard him ask another player where a monk would put the following scores 16,15,14,16,13,14

Okay... with those scores, his maximum AC without items is going to be 18 (DEX 16, WIS 16, Monk +1 bonus, +2 to one ability via level-ups for another +1 from either DEX or WIS, more likely WIS). Your Paladin is going to have an AB of at least +7, one would hope, so that's a on the order of 50% chance of hitting once per round. (Expected: appx. 4 pts. damage per round)

Not good.

On the plus side, the Monk isn't going to have a good AB either. Let's assume best-case of +3 from abilities, that's +9 total AB. The Paladin should have an AC on the order of 21 or so (full-plate plus shield plus +1 DEX), with flurry you're looking at 40%/40%/15% hit chances for 1d10+3 (expected: appx. 8 pts. damage per round). Talk your Paladin into Combat Expertise to drop that to 30%/30%/5% (about 5.5 damage per round taken vs. about 3 given).

So... you're a Sorcerer, of course. Max out CHA first, DEX second. Spell focus and greater spell focus in Necromancy to add DC, as blindness is a really good idea, as it will make your Paladin last much, much longer and is really the only effective save-or-screwed spell targeting what is likely to be his worst save, Fortitude. With the two spell focus feats, and assuming your casting stat modifier is +1 better than the Monk's CON bonus, that's the equivalent of DC 15 vs. 1d20+6 -- you may have to use two or three of your precious 2nd level spells to accomplish this, but it's your best hope. Use your human bonus feat for Weapon Focus (ray), or take a small race for the extra +1 AB, as every +1 is going to help here on the ranged touch attacks.

As long as your Paladin can tank for you, you'll have quite a few rounds to deal damage. Scorching ray is a nice touch, 2 4d6 rays, though you have to hit on a ranged touch (BAB +2, maybe +2 from DEX, for a +4 against AC 12 or so -- blinded is -2 AC and no DEX to AC) and you only have a few available to you once you land a blindness. Pound away with magic missile (2d4+2 per round, avg. 7) until you run out (you should have a total of 7 1st level spells).

If he's still standing, you're pretty much screwed, but given the conditions, it may be the best you can do.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-17, 12:57 PM
A Cleric or Wizard can summon Spiders.
1d3 small spiders can all entangle the Monk: They need to hit touch AC but still 3 tries maybe.

Once entangle: he can break free with a standsrd action (wasting it) because your spiders will hit him again on your turn.

So they battle goes:
Paladin holds off Monk
Cleric (full plate helps AC or Wizard if want one) summons 1d3 spiders.

Monk: attacks Pal or you

Next turn:
Spiders appear, you heal self or Pal, Spiders all entangle monk in webs.
Monk can't move much (webbing in thoery is anchored to ground).
-2 hit/-2 AC from dex, can't run or charge. Assuming can move at 1/2 speed, still not best off.

Monk can
a. break free wasting Standard action
b. attack weakened.

Either way, you brung him down to your level.

Only Con:
Fiendish Spiders and Paladins aren't very friendly terms. But Paladin ca'nt know this in character (he could metagame though) since who wastes a standard action in battle on detect evil.

my_evil_twin
2007-09-17, 01:02 PM
If you can manage to hit Mr. Monk's touch AC, which will be tricky, ray of enfeeblement could be your friend. You can drop his Str to 0 faster than you can drop his hp, and then you can coup de grace him. With good rolls you can drop him in two castings.
Even if you can't get him down that far, taking his strength down can make him much less of a melee threat.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-17, 01:05 PM
If you can manage to hit Mr. Monk's touch AC, which will be tricky, ray of enfeeblement could be your friend. You can drop his Str to 0 faster than you can drop his hp, and then you can coup de grace him. With good rolls you can drop him in two castings.
Even if you can't get him down that far, taking his strength down can make him much less of a melee threat.


RoE can't drop the monk's strength to 0. It's a penalty NOT damage.

my_evil_twin
2007-09-17, 01:08 PM
RoE can't drop the monk's strength to 0. It's a penalty NOT damage.I've been a rule-misreading machine lately. So the spell's probably still worth considering, but not a battle-winner.

Draz74
2007-09-17, 01:13 PM
If you go with the Grappler Barbarian idea (which I recommend), make sure you get spiked armor!!!

Ashtar
2007-09-17, 01:41 PM
Wouldn't a cleric (domains: Strength and War) be a good companion to the paladin? In full plate, shield, with aid, enlarge person, shield of faith, bless and cure spells.

It would certainly be harder for the monk than a squishy wizzie.

Machete
2007-09-17, 01:41 PM
Remember i do also have aid from a level 4 paladin

Sir Jenkins will be fairly useless unless he goes the Zen Archery Route with Mounted Combat too. If you go with that plan. Maybe the monk will be undead?

At least he has chicken.



Another route to go might be Marshal, Art of War Aura a hoarde of cheap hired grappler goons and have them dogpile the monk. It'll be very Burly Brawl, except monks can't fly. Buy some tanglefoot bags or something just in case this one can.

Zim
2007-09-17, 02:01 PM
Here's an idea that's so crazy, it just might work! The bard! Take a Bard4 with maxxed perform (sing is best since hands are free to hold a weapon) and skill focus perform. Use the Fascinate ability. Even with a modest Cha of 16 (low for a bard), you could have an average Will save DC 23, which is still pretty hard for a monk to make at level 8 (+6 from class and +5 from a 20 Wis). This could even be buffed up to DC25 with Eagle's Splendor if you want. Once the monk is fascinated, just walk away and lock the door. :smallwink:

That, and the bard has a pretty good spell selection (both battlefield control and combat), a fair BAB and good selection of weapons options.

Krelon
2007-09-17, 02:18 PM
If you go with the Grappler Barbarian idea (which I recommend), make sure you get spiked armor!!!

right! spikes. One of my chars has them, how could I forget to mention them?
btw, the paladin should have a locked gauntlet, so he cannot be disarmed... just in case.

anyway, I think it is best if you make 2 different characters. That way, if one doesn't work because of some crap combo he uses, the other still might work.

if you want a spellcaster, maybe the paladin is even better than the barbarian cause with high AC and lay on hands he will last longer (so you can buff him). Necromancy is your friend but too bad you'll have to decide if you go for blindness (well... he might take blind-fight and it doesn't kill him on the spot) or for ghoul touch (needs touch). I'm afraid as a sorc you have only one L2 spell known.
scorching ray is nice but you'll prbably have to fire into melee(-4) so I dont think it'll be very good.

if you want to try grapple enlarge person will be very helpful, cause it'll give your friend +2STR and +4 large creature grapple bonus and the unarmed strike damage from grapple goes from 1d3 to 1d4 and you get +1 to damage from higher strength and armor spikes do 1d8 (+x+1) instead of 1d6(+x). And it is only level 1!
(ok, the damage increases only by 3.5 per round but it helps none the less)

magic missile is nice, cause it always hits.


hmm.. just an idea, can a druid of level 4 shape shift into something large or huge? you could buff your friend and yourself then go grappling. plus: healing spells are nice.

EDIT: bard :smallbiggrin: yeah, if a draw is ok, that would be just cool

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-09-17, 02:34 PM
hmm.. just an idea, can a druid of level 4 shape shift into something large or huge? you could buff your friend and yourself then go grappling. plus: healing spells are nice.
cool

A druid gets wild shape at level 5 and can become a large animal at level 8, so no. Besides his DM banned druids or something(read the thread and you might understand).

Kaelik
2007-09-17, 02:43 PM
hmm.. just an idea, can a druid of level 4 shape shift into something large or huge? you could buff your friend and yourself then go grappling. plus: healing spells are nice.l

A druid 4 can't shift into anything, much less something huge.

EDIT:ninja'd

Also, I totally forgot that part. What a loser. I mean really. If Monks are so overpowered make a single change in the rules. 2 lvl 8 Monks versus 1 lvl 8 Druid, or Wizard, Or Ubercharger Build. Or Cleric. Give us this fight, we promise that we can build any of those characters to kill 2 Monks.

Nevar
2007-09-17, 03:05 PM
The real reason druids aren't allowed.. entageling roots. Add to that the flame spell that he can throw... 4 times at lvl 4. Plus isn't there a mage spell that acts like a mini fireball that they can do anytime. I don't think it's core but could see if he could weasle it in.

Leicontis
2007-09-17, 04:10 PM
Can your characters get normal mounts? If so, try and convince your buddy to join you with this build:

Race: Orc
Fighter lvl 4
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus: Lance, Power Attack

If you can point-buy your base Strength up to 18, your attack bonus on a charge, assuming full Power Attack, will be 6 (strength) + 1 (focus) + 1 (height) + 2 (charge) = +10 against a maximum AC of 18, for 3d8+24 damage each. Rolling well, that monk is going to be in a LOT of pain VERY quickly.

The other option is the orcish barbarian grappler and the orcish rogue3/fighter1 with a greatsword.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-17, 04:29 PM
Plus isn't there a mage spell that acts like a mini fireball that they can do anytime.

I believe you're thinking of Melf's Minute Meteors. Which, unfortunately, is level 3.

AslanCross
2007-09-17, 04:39 PM
This is a rather strange exercise. If he's trying to prove the Monk is broken, why is he stacking the odds in its favor? A one-on-one at the same level would probably have proven more, since it removes more variables that arise from tactics.

Snapdragon
2007-09-17, 04:44 PM
First thoughts:
isn't there a 50/50 shot of hitting either party engaged in a grapple?
Why would the monk let the paladin tank? He's got enough move to walk around your pal and smack a caster.
Hold person would be great, but his save should be in the +11 range while your DC could hit ~19. If you play with action points.... It's a very high rate of failure, particularly if you play end to end Concentration (as opposed to start of [actor's] turn to start of [actor's] turn).
Ray of enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself, but the highest penalty applies.

Seems more likely that a couple rogue 3/barbarian 1's could feint and/or flank the monk down better. Human, C Exp. Improved Feint, SF (Bluff). ~+10 vs. ~+9 (BAB 6 + Wis 3) but since you can wait for the other guy (ready an action to swing), you should be able to get this off over 75% of the time. Only 5-6 rounds of rage, but that should be enough (unless the villain hits and runs).

The monk figures to have an AC~17, so removing the dex takes it to 14, you're swinging at Bab 3, MW Greatsword (?) 1, str. 5 so DPS ~ .72(4d6 + 7) + .08(6d6 + 14). 17.92 each per round you feint. Slightly better than flanking (but stackable).

Maybe rogue 2/ranger 2 with TWF to max sneak attacks, but only if you think he'll stay flanked. Weaker against the nearly-certain Improved Trip, however.

Fun alternative : use sleight of hand to get the monk to a medium load (handing over your armor, for example). Special powers go away (flurry, AC bonus, movement). Won't work vs. the rules-obsessed as the books think in terms of taking stuff.

If your partner just HAS to play a paladin, consider them (marginally)mobile terrain. See if they'll use a net (sell them the non-lethal angle). It costs a feat, but since you won't have tanglefoot bags it's effect is irreplaceable. ennh, maybe not (same weakness as other ranged methods). Ummmm... caltrops? The monk's AC works against 'em, but every little thing helps. Maybe give the paladin a guisarme to go with sword and board? No reason not to TRY tripping.

Godna
2007-09-17, 04:55 PM
Hey Guys the fight is going to happen in one hour and I've already discussed tactics with the paladin

edit: I have already forced him into rolling his rolls in front of us and i just dont use druids anymore by choice i kinda pissed him off and dont want to do that again

Zincorium
2007-09-17, 04:58 PM
First thoughts:
isn't there a 50/50 shot of hitting either party engaged in a grapple?


Nope, although that sounds familiar enough to have been in a previous edition I suppose.



Why would the monk let the paladin tank? He's got enough move to walk around your pal and smack a caster.
Hold person would be great, but his save should be in the +11 range while your DC could hit ~19. If you play with action points.... It's a very high rate of failure, particularly if you play end to end Concentration (as opposed to start of [actor's] turn to start of [actor's] turn).


Exactly why I've been offering up the grappling tactics. Monks may not be the ultimate mage killers, but with a high level discrepancy like we're dealing with now, it's certainly going to look that way.

Ralfarius
2007-09-17, 05:00 PM
Well, we'll see how this goes. In the likely event that your DM's massively favoured monk wins, you can congratulate him on being a total tool and proving that a level 8 can beat level 4's, especially when the odds are in his favour.

'Cause really, a pair of CR 4's doesn't equal a CR 8 encounter, even for a solitary monk.

Godna
2007-09-17, 05:14 PM
Well, we'll see how this goes. In the likely event that your DM's massively favoured monk wins, you can congratulate him on being a total tool and proving that a level 8 can beat level 4's, especially when the odds are in his favour.

'Cause really, a pair of CR 4's doesn't equal a CR 8 encounter, even for a solitary monk.

So what do i do if i win? I don't have to worry about DM Rage because we are shifting positions and I'll be DMing for a while

Varnithis
2007-09-17, 05:47 PM
When he makes his awesome "t3h br0k3n uber-monk!" in you're new campaign with you in the DM seat... Hit him with "That Damn Crab!" at level 5ish. Maybe 6.

...I believe in revenge. :smallbiggrin:

Godna
2007-09-17, 06:04 PM
But its CR3 :smalleek: Why does wizard do this to us

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-17, 06:10 PM
If you win, then congratulations! You can brag at him for the rest of your life! Oh, and I understand the fight should be happening around now too, right?

Machete
2007-09-17, 06:39 PM
There is an item called a lodestone in either planescape or manual of the planes that weighs 50 lbs. and is something like the size of a walnut if you are going with the "slip weighs onto him" plan.

Godna
2007-09-17, 07:19 PM
Well in my book it was a win but he killed our characters

Pally won Init 18 +1
I got Second 16+2
Monk 4+4

Round 1
Pally- moves foward and Draws his weapon
My Turn- I cast Levitate
Monk moves up to pally (AoO missed) and hits pally for 6+4 <- he had a higher str than expected

Round 2
Pally- Attacks Pally hits does 8 total damage
My Turn - I raise 20 feet in the air (arguement breaks out I win arguement and am allowed to go up)
Monk- attacks pally and misses

From Here i dont quite remeber clearly but the pally got four hits on the Monk and the Monk Hit a Crit on the pally nearly goes down uses Lay of hands, I run out of missiles (more health than expected had at least 100), i take out crossbow he starts whining, Monk attacks Pally Misses, Pally power attacks for as much as he can and it hits, My turn i miss with my crossbow bolt(he deflects it),Monk Hits Pally and reduces pally to -2, I cast Acid Splash and Monk finally goes down, and out pours a volley of poisened arrows from the walls and i die.

I wanted to kill Him than and there :smallfurious:

bingo_bob
2007-09-17, 07:22 PM
Congrats on winning! And you DID win, he just DM fiat-ed you to death afterwards.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-17, 07:23 PM
and out pours a volley of poisened arrows from the walls and i die.

Seriously?

Rocks fall, everyone dies.

Hahahahahaha. This DM just became the laughingstock of everyone, everywhere. If this weren't the Internet, I'd ask for his name so that I could avoid playing with him. Don't give out his identity, though. Bad idea. :P

You did good, mate. He couldn't do squat, he failed his goals, and you won the moral victory (as well as the real victory). Your DM, to repeat myself, is a doofus. Worthy of nothing but contempt.

Varnithis
2007-09-17, 07:24 PM
The fact that you died is irrelevant. He had a super-rigged monk with unrealistic HP and stats, and you still killed him legally. The poison arrows from the walls just means he can't handle losing.

Bravo you made him resort to Rule 0 to kill you. That means you win! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: The best part is now you are the DM. If you are so inclined, payback! Sure, petty revenge is not a good thing to resort too... but it feels so good! Hahaha!

Zim
2007-09-17, 07:27 PM
Yeah, you totally won that encounter and your "friend" is a twit. I think he was acting out some sort of power trip fantasy there.

If I were you, I'd talk to him about this so called challenge of his and his motives behind it. Clearly, it was not intended to be fair or even fun for the players. If my DM did something like that to me, the gaming group would no longer include him. :smallmad:

Godna
2007-09-17, 07:28 PM
Nah I proably wont resort to using my DM power for revenge I can just mess with him through other means :smallbiggrin: It Wont Be Pretty

LordVader
2007-09-17, 07:32 PM
See how he likes it!
Next time, after he kills the BBEG, have a stream of poisoned arrows pour out of the walls and mutter about revenge being a dish best served cold.:smallbiggrin:

Nah, really, congratulations. He was screwing you over, and you won. The fact you died to a Deus Ex Machina dectracts in no way from your victory.

Godna
2007-09-17, 07:44 PM
Turns out my Friends the Paladin wants to try DMing and he making us continue these characters except the monk is nerfed much and I get to be Level 8 so this is going to be fun and my friend my get revenge for me so its Win-Win far as I care

Kaelik
2007-09-17, 07:50 PM
A) Congratulations on the win.

B) Where I in your situation. I would ask him to have at least 7 new character sheets prepared per session.

HIM:I flirt with the bar maid.
YOU:Poisoned arrows shoot out of the walls and you die. *audible tearing noise* Next Sheet?

LordVader
2007-09-17, 07:51 PM
This time, the other PCs should have access to items, as the Monk is designed to beat people's face in with no items, whereas other classes aren't so fortunate.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-17, 08:19 PM
Did you go wizard or sorcerer?

Godna
2007-09-17, 08:22 PM
Why does it Matter, i went Sorc for more spell slots

Balkash
2007-09-17, 09:30 PM
See how he likes it!
Next time, after he kills the BBEG, have a stream of poisoned arrows pour out of the walls and mutter about revenge being a dish best served cold.:smallbiggrin:

umm.. just saying. wouldn't that be a dish best served poisened? and quite possibly pokey?

Solmage
2007-09-17, 10:09 PM
So what do i do if i win? I don't have to worry about DM Rage because we are shifting positions and I'll be DMing for a while

Congrats.

Now I wonder if this was his thought process during the fight: "huh, he cast levitate.. I wonder what he intends to do .. hmmm... was it maybe a random spell in desperation at my sheer uberness in cheating my monks HPs and level? Hmmm... ahh I know, maybe he wants to distract me? Hmmm... yes.. confuse me.. thats it, distract me away from attacking the OBVIOUS distraction that is the paladin. It couldn't POSSIBLY be because he's like trying to levitate, which means I need to bumrush him and stunning kick him, specially since I already succeeded in my AoO. And that crossbow he requested as a weapon, ehh, he probably wanted it to use as a club in his deep despair.."

Anyway, I hope you torture that DM for years to come as punishment. I LOVED the idea of "oh and you? You may want to bring 6-7 character sheets per session from now on...."

(Even though you're not the GM, "oops! I TOTALLY meant to cast that disintegration ray at that kobold behind you!! ") :smalltongue:

Ralfarius
2007-09-17, 10:28 PM
Yes, I think great congratulations are in order. You basically took the ridiculously one-sided situation and made the DM look like not only a weenie, but a bit of a dunderhead as well. I certainly hope (but doubt) he learned his lesson about monks.

Damionte
2007-09-17, 10:41 PM
That's an interesting challenge. I mean we tend to all agree that Monks are kinda gimpy, but we all agree that the one thing they do well is stay alive.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-18, 12:38 AM
That's an interesting challenge. I mean we tend to all agree that Monks are kinda gimpy, but we all agree that the one thing they do well is stay alive.

That's because they're in a party of multiple people. Seriously -- who is the enemy going to target? The AC-21 Fighter in full platemail doling out twenty points of damage per round, or the AC-30 monk dealing 1d8+2 points of damage per round (if that)? Plus, if the rest of the party goes down (leaving the monk the last one standing by virtue of nobody considering him a threat), the monk generally has the "run away" option.

This was a straight-up fight. No friends to distract the enemies from the monk, and no running away.

Krelon
2007-09-18, 01:42 AM
That's because they're in a party of multiple people. Seriously -- who is the enemy going to target? The AC-21 Fighter in full platemail doling out twenty points of damage per round, or the AC-30 monk dealing 1d8+2 points of damage per round (if that)? Plus, if the rest of the party goes down (leaving the monk the last one standing by virtue of nobody considering him a threat), the monk generally has the "run away" option.

This was a straight-up fight. No friends to distract the enemies from the monk, and no running away.

but they do tend to survice long. Anyway, there is a spell called brambles and another called spikes. If you cast it on a wooden weapon (nunchakos) they do +1 to hit and +caster level on damage. Now you have a flurry of blows doing 1d6+10 or more per hit. Stunning fist vs. mages can be a winner. IMHO monks in a party are ok.

these arrows he hit you with, that was just plain stupid.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-18, 05:42 AM
Killed by a cantrip! That is insult to injury, and awesome as a f inishing move.

(edit) and that DM wins the lame-ass idiot of the month award, first for the stats on that monk that are obviously unfair, second for the 100 hit points, third for not wanting to allow you to levitate with a levitate spell, fourth for whining about a friggin' crossbow, and fifth for setting up this hideously skewed contest to begin with. Then he wins the lame-ass idiot of the year award for being a sore loser with the poisoned arrows. How old is that guy, anyway.

I think you should print out this thread and staple it to his forehead.

Duke of URL
2007-09-18, 08:27 AM
The DM in this case was a complete and total tool, no doubt. 100 HP? That's max HP for 8 levels (64) plus a +5 CON modifier (40) to get to 100 or better. And apparently a +4 STR modifier. Boy, those must have been some good stat rolls. *rolls eyes* A Monk build without Deflect Arrows? He was just asking to be sniped.

Saph
2007-09-18, 09:00 AM
From Here i dont quite remeber clearly but the pally got four hits on the Monk and the Monk Hit a Crit on the pally nearly goes down uses Lay of hands, I run out of missiles (more health than expected had at least 100), i take out crossbow he starts whining, Monk attacks Pally Misses, Pally power attacks for as much as he can and it hits, My turn i miss with my crossbow bolt(he deflects it),Monk Hits Pally and reduces pally to -2, I cast Acid Splash and Monk finally goes down, and out pours a volley of poisened arrows from the walls and i die.

I wanted to kill Him than and there :smallfurious:

You should have.

I mean, you had what, 10 castings of Magic Missile? That's 70 average damage right there. Then the pally hit him five more times, including Power Attack . . .

A level 8 monk has a HP score of 8 + 7d8 + 8*Con-mod. You said the stats for the monk were 16,15,14,16,13,14, right? And no stat-boosting items?

Even with max HP for every hit dice, that only gives a HP score of 64 + 8 times the Con mod. According to you the highest Con score he could POSSIBLY have would be 18 (and that would mean a max Wisdom of 16). That's 96 HP, and that assumes max HP per Hit Dice, which is effectively impossible if you're rolling up the character fairly.

So he was cheating. And he STILL lost. Yeesh.

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-18, 04:10 PM
*Gives Godna a high-five*

Just for that, I will be creating a party consisting of a sorc and a scythe wielding warrior sometime soon!

tainsouvra
2007-09-18, 05:00 PM
Ick. I'm not sure what's worse, that the DM thought that was a good challenge, that he was such a cheater in setting it up, that he managed to lose anyway, or that he threw a childish temper-tantrum afterward. Seriously, never let that fool DM again. He manages to have practically every bad DM qualifier in the book, and "the book" is pretty darn long, let me tell you.

Also, in response to the "death by poison arrows" technique, I would hand the DM a card with this printed on it (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg). It's better than any in-game revenge.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-18, 05:28 PM
I'd give him this card (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target4.html)...

Or this (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target265.html)...

Or what about this one (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target242.html)?

tainsouvra
2007-09-18, 06:11 PM
I'd give him this card (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target4.html)...
Or this (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target265.html)...
Or what about this one (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target242.html)? I had not seen that site. It's hilarious. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2007-09-18, 06:30 PM
See how he likes it!
Next time, after he kills the BBEG, have a stream of poisoned arrows pour out of the walls and mutter about revenge being a dish best served cold.:smallbiggrin:

Nah, "revenge is a dish best served cold" means you wait fifty years and kill his every descendant and wipe out his bloodline. And kick his puppy.

Well done Godna, and keep a wary eye on this guy in future.

SilverClawShift
2007-09-18, 07:15 PM
Don't take this the wrong way Godna? But if my DM was like that, I'd pack up my character sheets and start looking for a new group. That's absolutely pitiful, childish, and unfun.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-18, 07:58 PM
Still, congratulations on the victory. I'm even now planning on making that paladin my cohort!

Godna
2007-09-18, 10:54 PM
I think you should print out this thread and staple it to his forehead.

Know anywhere that does cheap prints?


Still, congratulations on the victory. I'm even now planning on making that paladin my cohort!
He is level 5 now but i can give you the stats from his character sheet.


Edit: Good news is my friend that decided to take his shot at DMing has made his monk's life a bit hard. His Character found an amulet that was cursed to put an irremovable small breastplate on his character so he lost all his various bonuses for a while. I also got a look at his sheet turns out he had an extra feat and +10 extra movement speed that he couldn't explain when asked about.

Ralfarius
2007-09-18, 11:17 PM
Oh jeez, this story gets better and better. Like, super-extra-cheating-and-still-losing better. What is this ex-DM's deal? Are we talking about a stereotypical 14 year old with a grudge, here? Because the way this whole thing has played out is ridiculous.

SilverClawShift
2007-09-18, 11:52 PM
I also got a look at his sheet turns out he had an extra feat and +10 extra movement speed that he couldn't explain when asked about.

You should never let this person DM again.

Heck, I wouldn't want that person to PLAY in the same group as me.

Godna
2007-09-19, 06:16 AM
Can't Disown him. He is my brother, but i can staple the page to his head. :smallbiggrin:

edit: He explained the extra speed and feat that was the sheet for the campaign not the challenge so whoops. heh

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-19, 04:08 PM
Acutally, Godna, could you post a basic outline of what yours and the paladin's stats were? I'd like to see the abilities and stats. Thanks!

Godna
2007-09-19, 04:57 PM
Give me a while to find my sheet in my pigsty of a room
But Basic Stats
The Total Rolls
using 4d6 drop lowest were
16
15
16
14
12
13
I put them

12 STR
16 Dex
16 Con
14 INT
13 WIS
16 CHA

I put the +1 in Dex from level 4
So basic stats right there

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-19, 07:25 PM
Those are some pretty good rolls! What did the paladin get? Were his rolls as good as yours?

Godna
2007-09-20, 06:15 AM
yeah he did pretty well himself my friend the pally has learned how to throw D6s so they roll about what he wants he generally doesn't use it, except for monopoly (prick collects everything in $1 bills),but when i convinced him we were getting screwed he rolled high

18
17
16
15
16
17

DM made him reroll using everyones dice and replaced his own so his end result had only was

17 Str +1 at level 4
18 Con
15 Dex
16 Int
16 Wis
16 Cha (DM wouldnt let him keep his other 17)

so yeah pally kinda screwed up on his hp so he had around 25+con mod hp so
10+3
7+3
3+3
5+3 so a total of 38 hp.

He also refused to use a Great sword saying he would feel dirty using his "trick roll throw" for damage with it.

Glyphic
2007-09-20, 06:21 AM
One way to curb this 'trick' would be to have him roll using a cup, or roll into a box. Something plastic like you find in Yatzee.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-20, 07:08 AM
yeah he did pretty well himself my friend the pally has learned how to throw D6s so they roll about what he wants ...when i convinced him we were getting screwed he rolled high

Well, I'd hate to say this, but while this thread has been rather vocal about your DM cheating (and losing), it would seem that your paladin friend has likewise been cheating. The idea of dice is to generate random values, not have them roll what you want them to. If you don't like randomness for character generation, use the point buy system.

Telonius
2007-09-20, 09:24 AM
Well, I'd hate to say this, but while this thread has been rather vocal about your DM cheating (and losing), it would seem that your paladin friend has likewise been cheating. The idea of dice is to generate random values, not have them roll what you want them to. If you don't like randomness for character generation, use the point buy system.

500 Irony Points for the cheater playing a Paladin. :smalltongue:

Godna
2007-09-20, 05:18 PM
He only decided to use his "method" ( i use that loosely) after i he figured out the dm was screwing us normally he just opens his bag of die pours them all out and counts the rolls as they come out going by rainbow

red 1st
orange 2nd
yellow 3rd
green 4th
blue 5th
white 6th (no indigo dice)
purple 7th

So yeah he normally plays fair but yeah he is a bit evil when he rolls by hand

daggaz
2007-09-20, 06:14 PM
Huh... the only way I know to do this trick is to spin the dice, which isn't technically rolling them, is blatantly obvious, and most DM's know better by now as well. Unless there are other methods other than weighted die?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-20, 06:25 PM
OK, great stats for both of you, what feats did you guys choose? How about the monk?

tainsouvra
2007-09-20, 07:10 PM
Huh... the only way I know to do this trick is to spin the dice, which isn't technically rolling them, is blatantly obvious, and most DM's know better by now as well. Unless there are other methods other than weighted die? There are a few. You can google "dice cheating" or the like to see what to watch out for. The first result I got for that phrase also says how to catch people using a few of these cheats, so definitely check that one.

A final thing I'll add is that, although not reliable, it is possible to simply practice rolling until you can manipulate the outcome simply by how you are holding the dice when you begin your roll. Be wary of people who always roll well when they hold their dice a certain way first (often checking to make sure a given number is facing up), as they may be using this trick.

In case you're worried, using a house set of dice and a dice cup pretty much makes all these irrelevant, and it's my recommendation if you suspect you have a skilled cheater in your midst. If someone can reliably cheat doing that, it's pretty much not feasible to catch them anyway, so you're stuck with 'em :smallwink:

Krelon
2007-09-21, 09:12 AM
we had that guy who had a dark gray d20, spotted black and light gray with black numbers.

roll, say number, pick up dice.

there is only one thing to say in his defense, he cheated only when the party had a bad run and we really needed two or three crits to come out alive.

In the end the DM bought him a white d20 with big red numbers (or white on red) and let him sit next to him.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-21, 11:39 AM
Hehe. I remember the story of the shameless cheater in one of my DM's old groups. They called him "Jack of All Trades, Master of All," because he'd never roll below a 15. Pretty much makes the bonuses irrelevant. Apparently he didn't even care that everyone at the table knew what a cheating scumball he was.

Godna
2007-09-25, 07:09 AM
I believe i took run (i found out this was outdoors so i figured being able to do a full speed haul-ass the other way would help), Improved Init( i think Pally has my sheet), and something else i think weapon prof for the crossbow. Pally took Exotic weapon(scyth), Improved Init, Dodge, and mobility. At least thats what i remember.