The Dragon Prince

[Kyberwulf]

So, I watched a series on Netflix. I don't know how old it is, but it feels a lot like Avatar. The Prince seems like Aang, the half brother feels like Sokka, and the elf feels like Katarra.. but their skill sets is different for each.

What do you guys think about the show?

[Peelee]

I just got through episode 6, and it's fantastic. I was playing KOTOR 2 while my wife watched it at first, so I know a few things that happen before I get to them, but it's not hampering my enjoyment at all.

Ezran and Bait seem a lot more like Greg and Wart/Benjamin Franklin/Jason Fumderburker to me.

[Kyberwulf]

Sometimes I hate netflix. lol

Only nine episodes. Having Castlevania flashbacks.

So, the show is pretty good, didn't want it to end after only 9 episodes. Animation was wonky a lot of the times. Was a bit distracting.

Again, has a very Avatar vibe to it. In a good way. A lot of the humor is the same.

Has a weird,.. motif to it. Like has a lot of PC characters in it, but if I had to say something about the politics. I thing this is how it should be done. Characters are characters first. Hardly a thing is mentioned about any of our real world politics, in the pretend world. I can't wait for the host of faux-news sites to proclaim this some pc win. lol. Like, the reason people are going to love this so, is cause it has poc and stuff like that in. Instead of it being a really good show.

Although, one of the things that bothered me. Nitpick. Why would you have a high ranking officer in the military, that can't speak. Not only that, she was put to lead in one of the most contentious parts of the border. I was fine with her being a *gasp* girl!.. in actual armor... but to have her be mute too? That made the stretch of her being on the top, unbelievable.

Although, it was weird seeing sign language in a cartoon, not a bad weird, just different. On that note, does anyone know what she said to her second before she left? I wish they had some kind of CC options for that part.

[The Fury]

I gave the first episode a watch. It was... OK. I might have been a little bit more stoked for it if I hadn't just finished watching Hilda right before it. It could be that I was just tired, It could be that I was subconsciously comparing it to the show I just finished, but I didn't feel like I could do another episode at the time.


So, I watched a series on Netflix. I don't know how old it is, but it feels a lot like Avatar. The Prince seems like Aang, the half brother feels like Sokka, and the elf feels like Katarra.. but their skill sets is different for each.

What do you guys think about the show?

I feel like the show creators wanted their audience to be reminded of Avatar, and hey it sort of worked. They even got Jack De Sena to voice the half-brother, (in case you were wondering why he reminded you of Sokka, that's one good reason,) and I admit, I was happy at seeing his name in the opening credits. There was even that scene with the girl, (Claudia, I think her name was?) reading a book that was titled "Love Amongst Dragons." All that said, the bright colors, the anime-inspired CGI animation and all... it reminded me more of another show. RWBY. Yeah, I went there. There are bits where The Dragon Prince's animation looks really choppy as well, and the front-loaded exposition in the beginning was tedious to sit through.

All in all, this show feels like it's off to a rocky start. Not to say I'll never return to it. I liked the character designs and the voice acting was pretty good. Maybe it'll improve, but nothing's wowing me yet.

[JadedDM]

It's not a coincidence that it reminds so many people of Avatar. It was made by one of head writers from that show.

[D-naras]

...
Although, one of the things that bothered me. Nitpick. Why would you have a high ranking officer in the military, that can't speak. Not only that, she was put to lead in one of the most contentious parts of the border. I was fine with her being a *gasp* girl!.. in actual armor... but to have her be mute too? That made the stretch of her being on the top, unbelievable.

Although, it was weird seeing sign language in a cartoon, not a bad weird, just different. On that note, does anyone know what she said to her second before she left? I wish they had some kind of CC options for that part.

I bet she got to high rank because she is deaf-mute and could actually face the dragon king (remember, he was named Thunder due to his voice) in battle without having her ears destroyed. I actually loved the world-building aspect that the character brought to the story.

[Cheesegear]

I don't know how old it is, but it feels a lot like Avatar.

As of today, it's less than two weeks old. Also, it's written by the same guys who wrote many of the 'important' episodes of The Last Airbender.


the half brother feels like Sokka

Because he's VA'd by the same guy who only knows how to play that Character and thus is typecast forever. Especially if the dudes writing for the show, had already picked out who they wanted to play the part before the first script was even written. Considering that the writers wrote TLA, it wouldn't surprise me if the part of Callum was written for DeSena.

[Clertar]

I bet she got to high rank because she is deaf-mute and could actually face the dragon king (remember, he was named Thunder due to his voice) in battle without having her ears destroyed. I actually loved the world-building aspect that the character brought to the story.

I really enjoyed seeing her. As of yet we don't know if she's deaf because she was born like that, or because of a later accident. It may be the latter, given how good she is at lipreading, and maybe she was already an army officer when she lost her hearing. If the former is the case, she's a badass fighter because this is an epic fantasy cartoon, but that's not really necessary for a good officer. In-world, her being born a princess would have been enough to give her a chance to get some formal training e.g. at the officers academy, and being good at it as she seems to be she would have made it up the remaining ranks. A realistic depiction of a deaf person with sign language being presented as essentially a different language.

[The Fury]

I went back and watched the rest of the season. I'm warming up to it a bit. It's not a very original opinion, but character-wise I came around on Rayla more than any of the others. I wasn't sure what to think of her at first, her accent took a little getting used to for me, but she's got a bit more complexity to her than the two princes. Though I guess Rayla does have a similarity to Sokka Callum in that neither are living up to an ideal of what they're "supposed" to be.

Callum is supposed to be a swordsman and a skilled rider, and he isn't. Then he starts to pick up magic and starts to find a direction that suits him better. Rayla meanwhile is supposed to be a fearless, cold assassin, and that's not her either. The difference is that Rayla hasn't discovered a path that's better suited for her yet. Girl's got moxie though. I gotta show credit to anyone that can acknowledge that she's probably going to lose a hand and take it in stride.

Then there's the antagonists...

I realize this is super unlikely, but I'm kind of hoping that Soren and Claudia don't turn face and join the heroes. From their sympathetic portrayal they come off as classic "switch sides" sort of antagonists, which is kind of why I'd prefer if they didn't. It doesn't happen often, especially not in cartoons, where there's villains that come off as sympathetic and likable yet remain villains. I'd be surprised and impressed if the writers do pull it off, but I'm not counting on it either.

[Kato]

After skimming through the thread I decided to give it a try and I've seen the first two episodes so far.

I guess the first thing I have to say is that I really don't like the (character) animation. It has this weird effect that makes it look.. cheap (?) to me. It's not horrible but I think I'd like anything else more.

Also : wow, starting out with 2+ solid minutes of narration. Yes, avatar didn't have an intro either but it was a way shorter introduction. Do we need that much backstory dumped on us? Speaking of avatar, you really had to copy the "book x chapter y" structure ?

Okay, enough complains. I mostly like the characters so far even if few things are done perfect. And what little we know about the plot has me curious enough. I didn't know kid's shows today start out with assassination and murder.

But... What is up with the references? I wasn't paying close attention but you could make a decent enough drinking game already. "winter is coming"? "they will find you and they will kill you"? (I know there were more but I forgot already) you're better than that.. I think.

Considering it's just nine episodes I'll likely finish at least book one..

[Peelee]

I bet she got to high rank because she is deaf-mute


I really enjoyed seeing her. As of yet we don't know if she's deaf because she was born like that, or because of a later accident.

Is she deaf, though? She knows when Callum is yelling, and it seems like she can hear the door open behind her when questioning the elf. I was under the impression that she could hear, but is mute.

[Cheesegear]

Is she deaf, though? She knows when Callum is yelling, and it seems like she can hear the door open behind her when questioning the elf. I was under the impression that she could hear, but is mute.

Wikipedia says Amaya is, in fact, deaf. And almost certainly mute. In the scene you mention, she needs Rayla to look at her when she's speaking to her. To me, this heavily implied that she may have been deaf and needed to read lips in order to speak to other people. Which also shows that she would know when Callum is yelling because reading lips actually can tell you that...Like I said, Wikipedia confirms.
(A friend of mine is deaf. I literally can not talk to him, unless I am looking directly at him and he is staring at my mouth)

I found it extremely annoying. She is not an independent officer, and she needs Gren to hang around her at all times, so that her orders can be relayed to her troops. Luckily, I'm pretty sure she reads lips, so she's not totally useless. As a warrior, I'm sure there are a number of workarounds for being deaf - however it is very difficult. Unfortunately, she's a leader, where being able to hear and speak and kind of...Really, really important qualities to have. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the kind of show that would spread the message 'being deaf makes you almost useless non-independent in situations where people need to be able to speak to you'. So, more likely, it's the kind of show that's presented as exactly what is shown; Events and people coincidentally conspire so that her disability isn't really that much of a problem. Coincidence = Progressive? Similar to TLA, and people saying that Toph being blind is progressive...Except that she's literally magic and she does just fine because she's in a contrived environment with a super-power that means she's not disabled (and in the one episode where she is actually blind...She overcomes it using magic).
Daredevil is blind, too! ...No he isn't.

But if anything, ever happened to Gren, Amaya would be done. Unfortunately, we don't really see what happens to her, after Gren stays behind in the city.

[Clertar]

I think it's also implied that there is a "national" sign language, given how Calum was able to sign something to his aunt. Besides the fact that her sign language is too articulate to be a bunch of home signs. That would mean that any signers in the kingdom speak the same sign language, and that she either has multiple interpreters, or that people close to her would speak both the oral and the signed language of the land. Hopefully we'll see more of her and some nerdy sign language linguistics blanks will be filled in.

[Kyberwulf]

Wait is that true? I thought she was mute, I mean she makes NO sound at all.

That being the case, her not being able to hear even makes less sense. Why would she be the boss of a large military contingent? I am assuming that of course.

I mean, Toph had some drawbacks, but she could literally see the world...with her feet. They even make it a point, that it is an issue if you can separate her from the earth.

They are probably going to have some thing magical, that negates these drawbacks?

[Flying Turtle]

First thought: Did they render this with an N64? What's going on over there Netflix?

Second thought: Calleum is absolutely voiced by Sokka's voice actor.

Third thought: Oh this is actually pretty solid. I like the idea of the strength of different types of magic being based on the weather/astrological conditions. Moon is full, moon magic is strong. Stormy out, sky magic is strong etc. Great way to create significantly different fight scenes and force characters to think creatively.

As for the aunt, I was under the impression she was deaf as she told Calleum "You know yelling doesn't help" when he yelled to tip off Raylah.

[Cheesegear]

That being the case, her not being able to hear even makes less sense. Why would she be the boss of a large military contingent? I am assuming that of course.

My guess is that she was the leader before something happened, and she was injured, or magicked to be deaf and mute. But because she was the General to begin with, she just kept her rank. As previously mentioned, fighting with Thunder is a likely explanation.


They even make it a point, that [her blindness] is an issue if you can separate [Toph] from the earth.

...And yet I don't even need a whole hand to count the number of times that that happens where it's an actual issue.


They are probably going to have some thing magical, that negates these drawbacks?

As I said, contrivance seems to negate the drawbacks, because The Dragon Prince isn't that kind of show. We don't see how Amaya interacts with people without Gren around. We only see her fight an opponent she can see. We don't really see her commanding large numbers of troops using sign language in her capacity as a General. We don't actually see how Amaya's disability is even a real disability...Except for the part where Rayla has to look at her, to talk to her...But, that's apparently missed by people, and not explicitly stated that that's how Amaya communicates, so it appears that "Look at me when you're talking to me." comes off as normal, because that's the kind of situation that they're in.


First thought: Did they render this with an N64? What's going on over there Netflix?

Cell shading is cheap. And despite being cheap, still looks pretty good. It looks like the team who animated Dragon Booster have significantly improved over the last 10 years. However, it's not them. And it's just that cell shaded animation looks the same regardless of who does it.

[Flying Turtle]

Cell shading is cheap. And despite being cheap, still looks pretty good. It looks like the team who animated Dragon Booster have significantly improved over the last 10 years. However, it's not them. And it's just that cell shaded animation looks the same regardless of who does it.

Nice a Dragon Booster call out, good to know I'm not the only one who was thinking of Dragon Booster while watching this. That being said my joke about it being rendered on an N64 wasn't about the cel shading, which I'm actually quite fond of. It was about the frame rate. The animation is choppy as hell, which is a shame because so far I like everything else about this show. Fingers crossed it gets better.

[Mechalich]

Nice a Dragon Booster call out, good to know I'm not the only one who was thinking of Dragon Booster while watching this. That being said my joke about it being rendered on an N64 wasn't about the cel shading, which I'm actually quite fond of. It was about the frame rate. The animation is choppy as hell, which is a shame because so far I like everything else about this show. Fingers crossed it gets better.

The Dragon Prince is produced by a new company called Wonderstorm - formed specifically to produce this show. They specifically and deliberately reduced the frame rate to reduce 'floatiness' which is a cludgy way to address the issue and makes it look bad. The show looks significantly worse than more polished 3DCG animation such as the Netflix shows by produced by Polygon.

[Peelee]

Finished it. I don't mind the choppy animation at all, though I do wonder why they chose that style; the backgrounds move smoothly, so it's not as if it's a low frame rate (which my friend pejoraticely describes it as) or anything.

As much as I love it, the season 1 ending left a lot to be desired.

The Dragon Prince is produced by a new company called Wonderstorm - formed specifically to produce this show. They specifically and deliberately reduced the frame rate to reduce 'floatiness' which is a cludgy way to address the issue and makes it look bad. The show looks significantly worse than more polished 3DCG animation such as the Netflix shows by produced by Polygon.

Note to self, read new comments. Anyway, the frame rate is clearly not lowered because you can see backgrounds move incredibly smoothly; it's only the foreground that looks choppy. Maybe they lowered the frame rate for that only? But again, that seems like an odd design choice. Admittedly, I don't know much about how animation works, so what you said could still be right an I'm just misunderstanding it.

[Silfir]

OK. I might have been a little bit more stoked for it if I hadn't just finished watching Hilda right before it.

Good Lord yes. I just binge-watched that. It's so damned charming.

I can only assume the budget for proper 2D animation just wasn't there for Dragon Prince - what they're using in its place just doesn't work properly. (Someone, somewhere, apparently had the idea that if they used the framerates common to 2D animation, it would feel less like a 3D-animated show. Doesn't seem to work that way.) I'll probably watch the show in spite of it, eventually.

EDIT: Ah, it looks like the studio attached to it is also going to produce video games in the same setting - so it has to be 3D for the assets to be usable. Bit of a shame.

[cobaltstarfire]

However, it's not them. And it's just that cell shaded animation looks the same regardless of who does it.

Hmm, I'm not sure, this is the choppiest of any other similarly animated show I've seen, like the only thing this does better than a few is have slightly less terrible mouth animations, and being rather pretty independent of the framerate. Other shows often look weird in how everything that isn't a mech moves, but it isn't in a distracting headache inducing way like what the Dragon Prince is doing with it's smooth camera and stuttery character animation. It makes me wonder what video games that are cell shaded are doing differently, because they don't tend to have these issues.

I had originally heard they chose to animate the characters with such a low framerate to try to emulate a "hand drawn" look, but it makes more sense if they were just trying to avoid issues endemic to how they were animating it. It's an easier excuse to swallow as a limitation of their medium rather than as a poor stylistic choice anyway.

I wasn't very into the show to start, but by the end I did want to see more, so hopefully the only way it can go from here is up. It did not really feel much like avatar to me, more often then not it felt more like it was trying to be silly like avatar could be but overdoing it in those moments. Like the two siblings are just...the biggest air heads in the universe most of the time, and maybe that's just too much at any given time? I don't know. I do hope that whatever we get in the next season is better balanced in that area.

edit: And when I say "the two siblings" I mean the brother and sister, the princes are OK. Although I'm not a big fan of the older prince. Which is weird because he reminds me of Hiccup from httyd and I like him just fine.

[The Fury]

I think it's also implied that there is a "national" sign language, given how Calum was able to sign something to his aunt. Besides the fact that her sign language is too articulate to be a bunch of home signs. That would mean that any signers in the kingdom speak the same sign language, and that she either has multiple interpreters, or that people close to her would speak both the oral and the signed language of the land. Hopefully we'll see more of her and some nerdy sign language linguistics blanks will be filled in.

I'm pretty sure that's correct. I only watched it the one time, so I might be incorrect, but my impression was that having Gren act as an interpreter was for the benefit of people like the two princes, Rayla, and Lord Viren and the soldiers that Amaya works closely with can actually understand her.

Plus, on a meta-level, I'm told that Amaya's signing is acuarately portrayed ASL.


The Dragon Prince is produced by a new company called Wonderstorm - formed specifically to produce this show. They specifically and deliberately reduced the frame rate to reduce 'floatiness' which is a cludgy way to address the issue and makes it look bad. The show looks significantly worse than more polished 3DCG animation such as the Netflix shows by produced by Polygon.



I can only assume the budget for proper 2D animation just wasn't there for Dragon Prince - what they're using in its place just doesn't work properly. (Someone, somewhere, apparently had the idea that if they used the framerates common to 2D animation, it would feel less like a 3D-animated show. Doesn't seem to work that way.) I'll probably watch the show in spite of it, eventually.


You know, the choppy animation being an "aesthetic decision" was something that I've seen other people bring up. I was skeptical because it just doesn't look good. So I was writing off that explanation as something super-fans of the show say to deflect criticism. Though with these explanations, I'll admit it actually does make some sort of sense. It might kind of work... I thought a lot of the action scenes looked good. Like the fights, some of the flashier spellcasting, and Rayla parkour-ing through the trees. Other sequences look... awkward. And I feel like I'm making RWBY comparisons again. Here's hoping that the animation crew can pull something together that looks better for next season.


Good Lord yes. I just binge-watched that. It's so damned charming.

I know, right? I'm still a little put out that there's not been much discussion about it in its respective thread, though I guess it might be a show that's not easy to talk about.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure that's correct. I only watched it the one time, so I might be incorrect, but my impression was that having Gren act as an interpreter was for the benefit of people like the two princes

Callum, at least, knows sign language.

[The Fury]

Callum, at least, knows sign language.

He does, though my interpretation is either that Ezran doesn't and/or Callum isn't completely fluent.

[Telonius]

Because he's VA'd by the same guy who only knows how to play that Character and thus is typecast forever. Especially if the dudes writing for the show, had already picked out who they wanted to play the part before the first script was even written. Considering that the writers wrote TLA, it wouldn't surprise me if the part of Callum was written for DeSena.

Totally different characters. Callum is a talented artist, and Sokka is (famously) horrible at art; Sokka was the only normal and Callum is a mage. See, complete opposites! :smallbiggrin: [/sarcasm]

My family generally liked it. Ava was a hit with my daughter. I'm hard of hearing myself, and always have the Closed Captions on to make sure my hearing aids and I don't miss the odd word of dialogue. I thought it was a very interesting choice for them not to CC the scenes where Amaya is signing without Gren (or another translator) present.



Also : wow, starting out with 2+ solid minutes of narration. Yes, avatar didn't have an intro either but it was a way shorter introduction. Do we need that much backstory dumped on us? Speaking of avatar, you really had to copy the "book x chapter y" structure ?

Okay, enough complains. I mostly like the characters so far even if few things are done perfect. And what little we know about the plot has me curious enough. I didn't know kid's shows today start out with assassination and murder.

But... What is up with the references? I wasn't paying close attention but you could make a decent enough drinking game already. "winter is coming"? "they will find you and they will kill you"? (I know there were more but I forgot already) you're better than that.. I think.


I believe the first episode of Avatar had a chunk of Katara narration, that they shortened into the general series opener. I don't think it was as much as Dragon Prince. I assume they're angling for six (possibly seven) seasons, one for each element.

I'm strongly suspecting the only person murdered was a bird in human form.

A drinking game would be deadly, considering Callum has clearly raided Colin Morgan's wardrobe.

Left to right: Ezran, Claudia, (okay, you got me - Viren?) Callum, Soren, Harrow

http://images.amcnetworks.com/bbcamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MerlinCastPhoto.jpg

[Legato Endless]

I'm strongly suspecting the only person murdered was a bird in human form.

Yeah, the Soulfang, the King going quiet in his chambers when Callum shows up, the vengeful look on Viren's face when the King humiliates him. The glance Viren gives the bird a few episodes later about not wanting to sing practically screams it to the audience.


But... What is up with the references? I wasn't paying close attention but you could make a decent enough drinking game already. "winter is coming"? "they will find you and they will kill you"? (I know there were more but I forgot already) you're better than that.. I think.

Well, considering Soren is basically a family entertainment friendly Jaime Lannister...

(Blonde, dashing, martial prowess. Jerk jock personality with a hint of softer sympathetic traits. Son to a far more ambitious man, the right hand to the King. The youngest member to join the KingsCrownsguard.)

I'm a little disappointed. Viren starts off like he'll be a bit more complex than the evil Vizier archetype, but this seems to have vanished by the end of the season. He confirms to the audience he's pretty willing to let his children die for the egg and I'm not confident we'll get more humanizing moments if he's gonna stay in evil glowing-veins-and-eyes mode.

[Lleban]

I actually really liked what I saw but it feels like I've only seen like half of a first season. Despite the animation issues I quite like the character work, Viren and Harrow's relationship seemed fascinating. The story as given seems alright thus far but man I want more.

[Cheesegear]

I actually really liked what I saw but it feels like I've only seen like half of a first season.

...Because you have? 8 episodes is barely anything (unless you're British, and then...like...Wow, 8!). If I had to guess, it's that the studio sold Netflix 8 episodes, which secured funding for the next ~10 based on how well it does. I've literally seen Netflix give funding to way worse shows, and Dragon Prince isn't even that bad. My guess if the next half of Season 1 goes well (or they'll call it 'Part 2' or whatever), the animation quality/budget for Season 2 will be much higher.

[Clertar]

...Because you have? 8 episodes is barely anything (unless you're British, and then...like...Wow, 8!). If I had to guess, it's that the studio sold Netflix 8 episodes, which secured funding for the next ~10 based on how well it does. I've literally seen Netflix give funding to way worse shows, and Dragon Prince isn't even that bad. My guess if the next half of Season 1 goes well (or they'll call it 'Part 2' or whatever), the animation quality/budget for Season 2 will be much higher.

I think Netflix also finally learned that sometimes less is more. If the sweet spot is too hard to get right, it's better to do a condensed season that leaves people wanting more than to draw things over and make people sick of the series. They started making quite condensed seasons (Castelvania, the upcoming Witcher, this) and reduced the episodes of the Marvel series too.

[Kyrell1978]

Thank you all for pointing out this show. I probably would have skipped over it if it weren't mentioned here. I just finished the first two episodes time for some binge watching.

[The Fury]

Well, considering Soren is basically a family entertainment friendly Jaime Lannister...

(Blonde, dashing, martial prowess. Jerk jock personality with a hint of softer sympathetic traits. Son to a far more ambitious man, the right hand to the King. The youngest member to join the KingsCrownsguard.)

Maybe. If he loses his hand some time in the third season it'll be official.


I'm a little disappointed. Viren starts off like he'll be a bit more complex than the evil Vizier archetype, but this seems to have vanished by the end of the season. He confirms to the audience he's pretty willing to let his children die for the egg and I'm not confident we'll get more humanizing moments if he's gonna stay in evil glowing-veins-and-eyes mode.

My impression is that the writers are going with some variation on the Fire Lord Sozin type with Viren-- a guy that's committed to a pretty loathesome course of action with what he sees as a noble end goal in mind. As for actual execution, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Even before the whole being willing to let his kids die and the glowy veins, he's acted pretty sketchy. Such as despite being told the crown prince can be saved, he brushes it off as pointless. Which isn't a good look, especially when he's trying to fast-track his coronation.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe. If he loses his hand some time in the third season it'll be official.



My impression is that the writers are going with some variation on the Fire Lord Sozin type with Viren-- a guy that's committed to a pretty loathesome course of action with what he sees as a noble end goal in mind. As for actual execution, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Even before the whole being willing to let his kids die and the glowy veins, he's acted pretty sketchy. Such as despite being told the crown prince can be saved, he brushes it off as pointless. Which isn't a good look, especially when he's trying to fast-track his coronation.

In it's own sort of way it works. People who have, historically, actually seize power through foul means in the real world, which he is oh so clearly out to do and which has historically happened no shortage of times at various places and points of history on various scales of influence and power seized, tend to play for keeps.

They use foul means. Nothing is too underhanded if there in the camp of people that succeed at it. Frankly, was we know with certainty, or strongly suspect, has happened thus far is relatively tame compared to some of the company in the real world he'd be sharing.

Persons who go this route in the first place are frequently arrogant and sporting of larger than is healthy ego's. Further, it's not at all unheard of for them to be fanatical about something they are just oh so very certain is right. He is absolutely convinced That Dark Magic is an acceptable tool and field of research that is to be used and mastered and studied, not feared. That humanity has a right to the home lands the elves and dragons took form them all those century's ago. That If every possible tool is not used to ruthless effectiveness, Humanity will be wiped out, there for it's ok to wipe out the elves and dragons first by any means necessary first.

And then his ego kicks in and tells him he's the only one with the vision, the insight and the will to do what must be done. And before you know it, he's either murdered or preformed horrible dark magic on the King, sought hard to usurper the throne, betrayed a legitimate regent, defied legitimate religious authority's, and sent his children out, one with orders to get that Egg back at all costs, including the lives of everyone else involved if it comes down too it. And the other with thinly veiled orders to murder 2 minors whom are the rightful heirs to the throne in cold blood to make sure he can take that throne with the magic WMD he's convinced himself he needs.


Add that when someone points out his behavior is monstrous, he comments that it isn't. It's just pragmatic.

Minor aside for that bit incidentally. Why not just tell the elf the princes are alive, and if you tell me what this thing does, I will not only let you kill them, I will help you in some manner? (Better weapons, get to them faster, something. He's a high caliber magic user, get creative.). Serves the Elf's goal in killing the prince for the cost of whacking one more body while he's there, and of getting his revenge to boot on Reylah (I'm not sure how that name is spelled.). And then what he doesn't know is your Kiddo's are there or you've hexed him or something to make sure he doesn't get away with the egg.

Eh, then again now that I think on it, that would risk him getting away with the egg or him getting caught with his hand in the murder cookie jar, so, I guess that would be why.



Ok, look, I honestly feel like if this character had been some weird Mage/Warrior Hybrid that would have worked better. Or just a straight mage. Maybe she had a magic item to get around the verbal component part or something.

I think they can make it less of an issue if we find out it was a relatively recent thing that she's Deaf/Mute (Aside, I straight did not get that she was Deaf, at all, till I got to the thread. I was sure she was just Mute, which actually made more sense if we assume recent or semi recent injury.) and that it was a result of a battle field injury. But yeah, that bugs me about the show. And if we find out nope, she was always like this, will bug me even more.

Don't get me wrong, I liked everything else about the character, but that detail for a military leader who needs to receive information and give orders as fast as possible? That just doesn't work for me.


Honestly, I, don't think there evil actually. There listening too, trusting and supporting there father. Whom, incidentally, seems to favor the daughter for being the lesser airhead and the magically inclined one of the pair, but maybe I'm just reading things that arn't there. But we see both are visibly physically uncomfortable with the directions there dad gives them before they go on there mission. And Soren, we KNOW he's been in real fights before that point, we've seen at least 1 of them, and we know he's prepared to kill to protect the kingdom or his own life and men. But killing the princes? You can tell that was NOT sitting right with him at ALL. I, could honestly see him shifting away form this, assuming he understood the order and they were not going to go for the cheap joke that he failed to grasp what that conversation was about after all. (Please don't let them do this. I cannot see that working.)

And Claudia, she's visibly uncomfortable with what her dads putting out there as well. And she's not even being told to kill anybody herself. Just get the egg back to the palace. Incidentally I actually like her, she reminds me of a sort of mishmash of Twilight Sparkle from Friendship is Magic with Ty Lee from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Magic and bookishness, but she's got that airhead but not quite an airhead, and hell on wheels dangers when she needs/whats to be thing going on Ty Lee always conveyed. Maybe throw in a splash of goth.

I'm not seeing them as being all that evil myself. The brother is perhaps a bit of a jerk and again, Claudia can be someone whom you do NOT want to have the wrath of aimed at you, but when it get's down too it, that's not in and of itself evil.


I gotta be honest. I feel like we'd have been better served in the last episode with the following.

Younger Prince mentions in the boat or something that he can understand animals earlier in the series, maybe uses Bait as and example. Bring it back up with the spider and have him tell them that's not how spiders talk. That gets them past Illusion Spider.

Illusionist Elf Lady is a healer. Wolf was not Disabled supporting the weight of multiple riders while fleeing magical Apex predators, at points going almost completely vertical to get away from them, the whole time. Didn't need 4 legs to be happy? Maybe not. Didn't need 4 legs to be fully physically functional? Not buying. So she is a strong healer, but she's also a Strong Illusionist as we've seen nothing that says you can't be at least someone specialized in more than one school of magic. Heck Claudia seems to be a Dark And Sky specialist, so, that's evidence against.

Then just have her say the what happened to the Egg has had so long to fester that it's beyond her now. Maybe if she'd been there when it first happened, or within an hour or two of it, but not now. Then have her tell them all that might help is hatching it.

One of the princes asks about Reylah's hand, and she looks at it, shakes her head and mentions some law that forbids it, or that the power to do that is something only royal lines of elves and dragons posses, or something else.

Everything proceeds as it actually did. And add one other thing, a mention at the end by the Elf Mage that that cube thing the prince got from the winter lodge is in fact another primal stone, but a much much older and more powerful one, because it can use all 6 Elements if you know what your doing. Maybe mention she can tutor him abit and get him started as she sees the tracking spell kick in and just looks somberly at it while the rest comment on it and team villain looks on as they did. We have also bypassed the likely if not inevitable "Welp, I'm out my one card so I'm just dead-weight when something bad happens now." arc there going to do with the older prince.

[Kato]

Finished the show yesterday.

I'm still not entirely happy with the animation but I can bear with it. With the overall story I'm mostly fine, but it's just not quite as good as other things (i.e. Avatar)
I think the characters are done well enough but just things about the plot and story telling feel off to me at times.



Viren is good enough as a villain but he just dropped from "I want the best for the kingdom" to "MOAR POWER!!!" way too fast. Why not coronate the boy king and make him your puppet? Why kill him, damn, tell your good hearted son to kill him? And imprisoning the soldier guy? Geez, then why not arrange an "accident" for him as well?

The siblings are... fine. I feel their comedy often is (intentionally?) awkward. I mean, I know a lot of it is, but even when I'm not sure about it... I'm mostly confused at their evilness (?). I mean, they don't really seem evil, apart from racism towards elves, but while the orders came from their dad, they accept "kill the princes" and "let your brother die" way, way too fast. Or are you also just "pragmatists"?

Callum's... fine. Really, just overall fine. I wonder why he never trained to be a mage if he says he'd prefer that over being a knight but oh well. I don't mind him.
Same goes for Rayla. She's fine, albeit she seems weirdly humorous for a supposedly cold assassin. Then again, I guess she's not that cold. I still think I'd prefer her as the straight man.
Ezran felt terribly useless up to almost the last episode. Was that "talking to animals" even a thing before episode 8? Maybe he's just too young but so far I felt like he changed nearly nothing about the plot. Callum was just as good hearted and felt more active.

Amaya... had not enough time on screen for me to feel strongly about her. She's quite clearly a Toph with another coat of paint and she's fin at that, but not quite Toph.

My maybe biggest issue... the titular character. Has not shown his face until the last episode. I mean, I get why, but I really would have preferred him to develop somewhat over the season.

[The Fury]

Honestly, I, don't think there evil actually. There listening too, trusting and supporting there father. Whom, incidentally, seems to favor the daughter for being the lesser airhead and the magically inclined one of the pair, but maybe I'm just reading things that arn't there. But we see both are visibly physically uncomfortable with the directions there dad gives them before they go on there mission. And Soren, we KNOW he's been in real fights before that point, we've seen at least 1 of them, and we know he's prepared to kill to protect the kingdom or his own life and men. But killing the princes? You can tell that was NOT sitting right with him at ALL. I, could honestly see him shifting away form this, assuming he understood the order and they were not going to go for the cheap joke that he failed to grasp what that conversation was about after all. (Please don't let them do this. I cannot see that working.)

And Claudia, she's visibly uncomfortable with what her dads putting out there as well. And she's not even being told to kill anybody herself. Just get the egg back to the palace. Incidentally I actually like her, she reminds me of a sort of mishmash of Twilight Sparkle from Friendship is Magic with Ty Lee from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Magic and bookishness, but she's got that airhead but not quite an airhead, and hell on wheels dangers when she needs/whats to be thing going on Ty Lee always conveyed. Maybe throw in a splash of goth.

I'm not seeing them as being all that evil myself. The brother is perhaps a bit of a jerk and again, Claudia can be someone whom you do NOT want to have the wrath of aimed at you, but when it get's down too it, that's not in and of itself evil.

I don't see them as evil either. I don't imagine anyone does at this point, though in my case it's more for tropey reasons rather than anything demonstrated by the characters themselves. Like how Claudia is too cute and bubbly to be a bad guy and how Soren is too much of a lovable dolt to be evil. Sympathetic goofballs can't be evil. It's like a rule for cartoons or something.

Yeah, they're both complicit in some sketchy stuff, but that's easy to write off as being overly trusting of Viren. Why wouldn't they? He's their dear ol' dad and he's worked to keep the kingdom safe his whole life. So they're willing to overlook stuff like Viren being in such a rush to be crowned and having Gren chained up in the dungeon. Then Viren tells Claudia that if she has to choose between saving Soren and bringing back the egg to choose the egg. Then he tells Soren to kill the two princes. That's when the red flags start going up.

I personally took this as the duo's out for turning face and start working against Viren. At this point, I still think it might be interesting if one or both actually followed through with Viren's orders-- Soren tries to kill the two princes or Claudia allowing something bad to happen to Soren so she can capture the egg dragon. It seems super unlikely, and if the show actually does it I'll be surprised, but it might be interesting.


Finished the show yesterday.

I'm still not entirely happy with the animation but I can bear with it. With the overall story I'm mostly fine, but it's just not quite as good as other things (i.e. Avatar)
I think the characters are done well enough but just things about the plot and story telling feel off to me at times.



Viren is good enough as a villain but he just dropped from "I want the best for the kingdom" to "MOAR POWER!!!" way too fast. Why not coronate the boy king and make him your puppet? Why kill him, damn, tell your good hearted son to kill him? And imprisoning the soldier guy? Geez, then why not arrange an "accident" for him as well?

The siblings are... fine. I feel their comedy often is (intentionally?) awkward. I mean, I know a lot of it is, but even when I'm not sure about it... I'm mostly confused at their evilness (?). I mean, they don't really seem evil, apart from racism towards elves, but while the orders came from their dad, they accept "kill the princes" and "let your brother die" way, way too fast. Or are you also just "pragmatists"?

Callum's... fine. Really, just overall fine. I wonder why he never trained to be a mage if he says he'd prefer that over being a knight but oh well. I don't mind him.
Same goes for Rayla. She's fine, albeit she seems weirdly humorous for a supposedly cold assassin. Then again, I guess she's not that cold. I still think I'd prefer her as the straight man.
Ezran felt terribly useless up to almost the last episode. Was that "talking to animals" even a thing before episode 8? Maybe he's just too young but so far I felt like he changed nearly nothing about the plot. Callum was just as good hearted and felt more active.

Amaya... had not enough time on screen for me to feel strongly about her. She's quite clearly a Toph with another coat of paint and she's fin at that, but not quite Toph.

My maybe biggest issue... the titular character. Has not shown his face until the last episode. I mean, I get why, but I really would have preferred him to develop somewhat over the season.


I feel like Rayla's jokey personality was a way the writers to suggest that, like Callum, she's been molded into a role that actually doesn't fit her. While she's great at the ninja-moves side of being an assassin, she's awful at the actual killing people side of it. I'm guessing that she'll eventually find something that suits her better. Classic D&D style rogue maybe? As for why neither got trained in a role that suited them better? They're both pretty young and adults aren't always super great at telling what kids need.

I don't know, Amaya being the show's Toph? Beyond the surface traits, I don't really see it. Sure, they're both characters living with a disability, (Toph's blindness, Amaya's deafness,) they're both relatively foul-mouthed for their respective shows, (in Amaya's case, as much as one can be using ASL. See her "bull...droppings" quip.) Beyond that though, there's more differences than similarities. Toph has her pro-wrestler personality and likes to brag about her abilities and has a lot of jokes. Amaya's a lot more serious and weirdly enough, I'd say that Toph is more level-headed. Amaya seems to jump to conclusions, (suggesting that the Moonshadow Elf assassins got in because Viren wanted them there,) whereas Toph rarely does things like that.

[Bastian Weaver]

Because he's VA'd by the same guy who only knows how to play that Character and thus is typecast forever.

Well, Sokka was originally supposed to be different, the writers changed his character because they liked how DeSena voiced him. He doesn't need to play anyone else, he's just that cool the way he is!

[Metahuman1]

I don't see them as evil either. I don't imagine anyone does at this point, though in my case it's more for tropey reasons rather than anything demonstrated by the characters themselves. Like how Claudia is too cute and bubbly to be a bad guy and how Soren is too much of a lovable dolt to be evil. Sympathetic goofballs can't be evil. It's like a rule for cartoons or something.

Yeah, they're both complicit in some sketchy stuff, but that's easy to write off as being overly trusting of Viren. Why wouldn't they? He's their dear ol' dad and he's worked to keep the kingdom safe his whole life. So they're willing to overlook stuff like Viren being in such a rush to be crowned and having Gren chained up in the dungeon. Then Viren tells Claudia that if she has to choose between saving Soren and bringing back the egg to choose the egg. Then he tells Soren to kill the two princes. That's when the red flags start going up.

I personally took this as the duo's out for turning face and start working against Viren. At this point, I still think it might be interesting if one or both actually followed through with Viren's orders-- Soren tries to kill the two princes or Claudia allowing something bad to happen to Soren so she can capture the egg dragon. It seems super unlikely, and if the show actually does it I'll be surprised, but it might be interesting.




Well, we though that about Ty Lee at first. And then we got to see the crazy amounts of damage she could do and just how relentless she could be. Hell, look at when there building to the climax in Ba Sing Sae. She comes off as downright menacing for a bit there.

Yeah, eventually she chooses Mei over Azula and runs a risk to save her, and then off screen makes friends in prison with The Kiosk Warriors, but still.

Claudia has a goth thing going on, there are flashes of her coming off not just as "Powerful in a fight" but downright dangerous in her mental state. Look at her when she's ordering the moon shadow else be taken captive right after the kings assassination. That's not just wild uncontrolled impend anger. That's actual malice toward him.


That said, yeah, she's menacing toward a believed enemy of the kingdom. Not with out fair reason given that far as she knows 2 minutes ago he'd been party to murdering the king in his bed chambers and been gunning for the princes heads as well.

She's convinced the dragon egg is a weapon. She finds what her dads telling her to do odd, but then far as she's been lead to believe, end of the human race is nigh if she fails in this.

She's not aware of anything her dad has done to The King, has been told attempting to assert stability for the coming war for the fate of humanity is his only reason for trying to rush ceremony along, and she doesn't know what Soren's orders are.



Likewise, Soren doesn't know what her orders are and has been fed largely the same stuff, and also, far as he knows, all his dad did was be stern with the Step Prince. Who was clearly biting off more than he could chew. Ss demonstrated by his age. Also that thus far his failure to acquire proficiency with a sword let alone the mastery a prince is suppose to have of one were given to understand. He stands and fights for the king like he means it unless he's going to show shonen power up combat aptitude later. Which I doubt.

And again, you can see in his face and his tone once he's given the order, he's not ok with this at all.



So, right now I'm betting there flawed and being manipulated, but not evil.

[Kyberwulf]

The Brother, I can see as being not evil or.. switching sides sometime. He is just to helpful.

The Sister though. Just her character introduction. Her being blind to everything in pursuit of her magical craft, enough that she as about to walk into a tree? Not to mention, her magical power comes though sacrificing living animals and stuff? That is a HUGE sign that she is going to become evil.

[The Fury]

Well, we though that about Ty Lee at first. And then we got to see the crazy amounts of damage she could do and just how relentless she could be. Hell, look at when there building to the climax in Ba Sing Sae. She comes off as downright menacing for a bit there.

Yeah, eventually she chooses Mei over Azula and runs a risk to save her, and then off screen makes friends in prison with The Kiosk Warriors, but still.

Claudia has a goth thing going on, there are flashes of her coming off not just as "Powerful in a fight" but downright dangerous in her mental state. Look at her when she's ordering the moon shadow else be taken captive right after the kings assassination. That's not just wild uncontrolled impend anger. That's actual malice toward him.


That said, yeah, she's menacing toward a believed enemy of the kingdom. Not with out fair reason given that far as she knows 2 minutes ago he'd been party to murdering the king in his bed chambers and been gunning for the princes heads as well.

She's convinced the dragon egg is a weapon. She finds what her dads telling her to do odd, but then far as she's been lead to believe, end of the human race is nigh if she fails in this.

She's not aware of anything her dad has done to The King, has been told attempting to assert stability for the coming war for the fate of humanity is his only reason for trying to rush ceremony along, and she doesn't know what Soren's orders are.



Likewise, Soren doesn't know what her orders are and has been fed largely the same stuff, and also, far as he knows, all his dad did was be stern with the Step Prince. Who was clearly biting off more than he could chew. Ss demonstrated by his age. Also that thus far his failure to acquire proficiency with a sword let alone the mastery a prince is suppose to have of one were given to understand. He stands and fights for the king like he means it unless he's going to show shonen power up combat aptitude later. Which I doubt.

And again, you can see in his face and his tone once he's given the order, he's not ok with this at all.



So, right now I'm betting there flawed and being manipulated, but not evil.

A distinction that can be drawn between Team Bro 'n Sis and Ty Lee is that while Ty Lee did have some admiration for Azula, Azula used a lot of fear to keep her in line. Which worked pretty well until Ty Lee got pushed too far with seeing Mai threatened. Claudia and Soren... they seem like they're kept in line by a sense of familial loyalty more than anything else.

While I agree mostly on the fact that they're being manipulated, I think whether they end up deferring to their sense of morals or their sense of loyalty to Viren is going to be the clincher as to whether they're good or evil.


The Brother, I can see as being not evil or.. switching sides sometime. He is just to helpful.

The Sister though. Just her character introduction. Her being blind to everything in pursuit of her magical craft, enough that she as about to walk into a tree? Not to mention, her magical power comes though sacrificing living animals and stuff? That is a HUGE sign that she is going to become evil.

It's a little difficult to determine which moral failings are forgivable in a show that's still early in its run. It's not all that clear what Claudia's limits are either. She's at least willing to kill a spider to cast a spell. By the way, the book she was engrossed in when nearly walking into a tree was titled "Love Amongst the Dragons," so it probably wasn't a magical text.

Admittedly, a big reason why I think Soren and Claudia will end up turning face eventually is also a pretty dumb one. They need to be redeemed before they can be shipped with Callum. Or possibly Rayla. Whoo boy... I can smell the shipping wars approaching.

[Kirjath]

Well, the show has been officially confirmed for a second season in 2019 (at least, according to IGN and other outlets). I'm really hoping they add 2-4 more episodes for the seasons moving forward, just to give the story a bit more time to breathe. I enjoyed what I saw of the first season, but it felt almost like a teaser (appetizer, I guess) than anything more significant.

[Clertar]

Amaya is a lot more Lin Beifong than Toph imho.

[Wanjigi]

I hope you are a diehard fan of netflix movies. The channel is amazing and the movies, remarkable

[The Fury]

Well, the show has been officially confirmed for a second season in 2019 (at least, according to IGN and other outlets). I'm really hoping they add 2-4 more episodes for the seasons moving forward, just to give the story a bit more time to breathe. I enjoyed what I saw of the first season, but it felt almost like a teaser (appetizer, I guess) than anything more significant.

In truth, I'd be more surprised if the show didn't get a second season. There's some stuff in it that I liked, but leaving that aside, The Dragon Prince has a lot for a fan community to latch onto. There's the expansive setting lore, visually pleasing character designs, hints of a complex morality... potential shipping fodder... Anyway, according my understanding of the modern animation fan, they eat that kind of thing right up. Heck, this show's what? Barely a month old and it already has a pretty robust fan community.

As for me... I'll probably watch the next season book, but I'm still not sure about how I feel about the show altogether.

[Metahuman1]

A distinction that can be drawn between Team Bro 'n Sis and Ty Lee is that while Ty Lee did have some admiration for Azula, Azula used a lot of fear to keep her in line. Which worked pretty well until Ty Lee got pushed too far with seeing Mai threatened. Claudia and Soren... they seem like they're kept in line by a sense of familial loyalty more than anything else.

While I agree mostly on the fact that they're being manipulated, I think whether they end up deferring to their sense of morals or their sense of loyalty to Viren is going to be the clincher as to whether they're good or evil.



It's a little difficult to determine which moral failings are forgivable in a show that's still early in its run. It's not all that clear what Claudia's limits are either. She's at least willing to kill a spider to cast a spell. By the way, the book she was engrossed in when nearly walking into a tree was titled "Love Amongst the Dragons," so it probably wasn't a magical text.

Admittedly, a big reason why I think Soren and Claudia will end up turning face eventually is also a pretty dumb one. They need to be redeemed before they can be shipped with Callum. Or possibly Rayla. Whoo boy... I can smell the shipping wars approaching.

True. But by the same token, she and Mai still supported her until they were, for all practical intentions and purposes, backed to a corner by her till they broke. Granted, she wasn't expecting them to break, just to stick too what she felt there roles were, but still.

And I get the feeling there were also chunks of it both of them were enjoying. Which does make a certain sense in context, but also does make them just a bit less innocent of all things.


Yes, it's family loyalty, but the thing is, right now, based on the information they have available too them, it's also behaving in a logical manner. We the audience are privy to information those specific characters are not presently privy to. What will likely make or break it is when they learn it, how much they believe/accept it (which could well depend on the source and the delivery manner.), and what they choose to do at that point.


Yeah, she's willing to kill a spider for a spell. She's been raised by a man who thinks mass casualty warfare with sapient life is acceptable. Might even be leaning toward Genocide. And Genocide is certainly being entertained by at least some of the forces there at odds with.

And in the real world, for a lot of people who aren't evil, killing a spider simply because it was there and it was a spider is acceptable. Killing it because it actively let's you work a piece of magic that is of benefit too you right that moment? I'd buy that.


Let us also remember that she, unlike the younger prince, can't speak to Animals and understand them in exchange. She also may not know of people who can. Lastly, she has more than one type of magic she can use, we've seen this. Dark Magic is only 1 tool in her arsenal.

It's not at all impossible to think that upon gaining more information, she might well swear it off.

[The Fury]

True. But by the same token, she and Mai still supported her until they were, for all practical intentions and purposes, backed to a corner by her till they broke. Granted, she wasn't expecting them to break, just to stick too what she felt there roles were, but still.

And I get the feeling there were also chunks of it both of them were enjoying. Which does make a certain sense in context, but also does make them just a bit less innocent of all things.


Yes, it's family loyalty, but the thing is, right now, based on the information they have available too them, it's also behaving in a logical manner. We the audience are privy to information those specific characters are not presently privy to. What will likely make or break it is when they learn it, how much they believe/accept it (which could well depend on the source and the delivery manner.), and what they choose to do at that point.


I agree that that they don't know everything about Viren machinations but they actually do know some things about him that are pretty sketchy. Claudia at the very least knows about Gren being locked up in the dungeon, and it's implied that Soren was the one who put him there. The only thing they know for sure about Gren is that he was ordered to lead the mission to rescue the two princes. Viren almost certainly ordered him to be locked up because he had good reason to suspect that Gren would be disloyal to him and might complicate his schemes. Team Bro 'n Sis probably carried the orders out because leading an important mission would stoke Soren's ego and Claudia seems happy to let him have that.

Then there's Runaan... it was Claudia, not Viren, that had him stuck in the dungeon in the first place. Specifically ordering him to not be killed. Whether it was so Viren would have a lab rat to experiment on, or to gain some tactical insight on Xadia isn't really that clear.

In both of those cases, there's some benefit of the doubt to be had, though both of those points do come off as sketchy.


Yeah, she's willing to kill a spider for a spell. She's been raised by a man who thinks mass casualty warfare with sapient life is acceptable. Might even be leaning toward Genocide. And Genocide is certainly being entertained by at least some of the forces there at odds with.

And in the real world, for a lot of people who aren't evil, killing a spider simply because it was there and it was a spider is acceptable. Killing it because it actively let's you work a piece of magic that is of benefit too you right that moment? I'd buy that.


Let us also remember that she, unlike the younger prince, can't speak to Animals and understand them in exchange. She also may not know of people who can. Lastly, she has more than one type of magic she can use, we've seen this. Dark Magic is only 1 tool in her arsenal.

It's not at all impossible to think that upon gaining more information, she might well swear it off.

Yeah, that's pretty much the point I was making with the spider. Claudia is willing to as far as killing a spider to fuel a spell. In spite of how the scene was presented, (sinister music as the spider crawls along her hand before mercilessly crushing it,) killing a spider seems pretty tame. At the very least, it doesn't say much about where her limits are.

Genocide is something that the series seems to be implying might be or could have been a possibility. At the very least, it seems like it's a future prospect that Viren and Amaya both acknowledge and fear.

This is largely in the territory of fan speculation because it's not been made explicitly clear, but before the discovery of Dark Magic, the continent wasn't split and humans lived in Xadia. The opening narration says that humans were all driven to the west, but it seems like the elves, dragons and whatnot might have killed all the humans that refused to leave.

[Metahuman1]

Do we need the spoilers anymore? Feels like the episodes have been out for abit now.


Anyway.

In his case, I could see Soren doing it for ego, not thinking anything would come of it other than he'd get some Glory and make it up to the dude later. His sister might well have had a chat with Dad were in he told her some yarn "He's not going to be open to the magic your likely going to need to use. He's just being held to get us through this crisis, he won't be harmed, and he'll be let go soon as were secure again. Really, I give you my word." or some such.


As for Runaan. She was distraught at the time. Livid. He'd just murdered her king, whom were given to understand she did not hold in ill regard, and his group had tried to kill her and her brother, and the princes, that last group being people she was very fond of. Might even have succeeded in that last part far as she knew at that point. A teenager letting there emotions getting the better of them is not unreasonable in the grand scheme of things.

I lean toward her plan being to pump him for information rather than a genie pig, if the latter were the case I'd think she'd be less worried about things like keeping him fed and more interested in doing something she deemed useful too him before he could starve himself.


Even if they didn't, Runaan talks of the situation like killing the king and princes is intended to destabilize things so they can finish off humanity for the crimes of killing the dragon king, all the war casualty's, and using dark magic.

And Viren is certainly afraid it's coming. And seems to have adopted the idea that if he can use the Egg as a WMD, he must do so for sake of self preservation.

[Knaight]

Overall I've liked this - and that despite it starting off on a bad foot with me, with particular fantasy elements so overused that I've developed a strong aversion to them (elves, dragons).


Genocide is something that the series seems to be implying might be or could have been a possibility. At the very least, it seems like it's a future prospect that Viren and Amaya both acknowledge and fear.

This is largely in the territory of fan speculation because it's not been made explicitly clear, but before the discovery of Dark Magic, the continent wasn't split and humans lived in Xadia. The opening narration says that humans were all driven to the west, but it seems like the elves, dragons and whatnot might have killed all the humans that refused to leave.

The description of what was done to the humans in the opening crawl is textbook ethnic cleansing. Genocide hasn't been mentioned explicitly, but that's a pretty strong implication all on its own.

This feeds into my main complaint with the show, which is that the themes tend to be pretty clearly built around the idea of an unnecessary war buoyed up by warmongers on both sides to the detriment of everyone else on both sides. That's a fine setting basis for a lot of fine themes, and one that supports the quest of the protagonists - but it clashes a little bit with the presented history of the setting, where one vastly more powerful group engages in a near complete ethnic cleansing campaign, then justifies assassination and war because the victims of the ethnic cleansing campaign reorganized elsewhere and killed the person who headed up said campaign. The narrative favoritism the elven faction is given when compared to the actual events of the text is probably the most blatant I've seen since RotTK.

Similarly, take those ordinary civilians. On the human side we see assassination attempts made against children from an invading assassination force, along with the aforementioned ethnic cleansing. On the elven side? We see a single former assassin who came into the human ghetto during a time of growing war treated as a probable enemy combatant, and we see some dehumanizing (or deelfanizing) wartime propoganda. These are not equivalent.

Take those warmongers. On the human side we have the comically evil advisor claiming the throne after what is basically a coup, looking to assassinate the heirs to the throne, and sending their own children on a mission that they explicitly make clear is more important to them than the children themselves, while also doing the whole veiny-glowy-evil-thing, which in this case is essentially fantasy imagery to portray them as a bad person. Meanwhile the head of an assassination squad seeking vengeance against someone who killed their buddy the ethnic cleanser in chief after being on the receiving end of ethnic cleansing? That guy is somehow a noble and honorable warrior, practically a tragic hero.

[Metahuman1]

Keep in mind we've not even seen double digits of actual sapient fantasy races. And someone had to send those assassins in, they were acting on orders, that much is made clear. Let them get to the elf homelands, will see what comes out of the woodwork.

The evil advisor guy, while bad, does have a certain logic to most of his arguments and points. A logic that has to depend on a moral frame work that might not exist in the setting to counter it.

The one assassin guy who survived the run at the King made it very clear he didn't care if the whole reason they went in to do that in the first place was moot. He didn't care if the king didn't authorize what happen, if the dragons prince was alive and well and could be returned, and if the 2 princes of the humans were children who'd never done a damn thing to him and might well sue for peace upon taking the throne.

He didn't care. He wanted the humans dead. They could take the egg back afterword's over there corpses perhaps, but those 3 at a minimum were going to die. Not negotiable.

He partially fails, and ends up captured.

And then he gives them nothing of use till he succumbs to what is basically magical torture/coercion, and even then only gives up a limited amount in an attempt to save his skin form a fate worst than death.

That's, not really a tragic hero were I'm standing.




And again, wait till we get to the other kingdoms, the one's The Elves and Dragons rule. We don't know what there leaders are going to be like, but there are hints there going to be plenty adverse to peace themselves, and plenty willing to do horrible things and be shown and called out for it.

[Knaight]

And again, wait till we get to the other kingdoms, the one's The Elves and Dragons rule. We don't know what there leaders are going to be like, but there are hints there going to be plenty adverse to peace themselves, and plenty willing to do horrible things and be shown and called out for it.

I fully expect them to be portrayed as more warmongers willing to do horrible things - but that leaves them in the parallel framework with humans on the other side. That whole framework is what conflicts with the portrayal of the setting history, where the elves and dragons perpetuated an atrocity against a people in response to one human being a problem. Take the portrayal by the show of the assassination of the dragon king as a terrible thing: I'd argue that not only did the dragon king have that coming, but that the assassins were completely in the right to kill him.

[Metahuman1]

I fully expect them to be portrayed as more warmongers willing to do horrible things - but that leaves them in the parallel framework with humans on the other side. That whole framework is what conflicts with the portrayal of the setting history, where the elves and dragons perpetuated an atrocity against a people in response to one human being a problem. Take the portrayal by the show of the assassination of the dragon king as a terrible thing: I'd argue that not only did the dragon king have that coming, but that the assassins were completely in the right to kill him.

They weren't responding to 1 bad human though. If they were, Dark Magic wouldn't be such a common teaching among humans now that hardly any among the humans comment on it.

Think of it more like if Carl Marx or Adolf Hitler got you to proof read there book before putting it in to be published. And then you read it and opted to find them one dark night on there way home form the Inn and introduce them to the business end of a knife and take the only copy and burn it, cause you saw the destruction this stuff might well cause if it was not stopped right then, right there.


Was the ethnic cleansing an overreaction? Possible. Hell at this point likely. And that's something that may come up. It may come up that it was an overreaction and needed to be addressed and corrected as best as could be done in the now. Can't go back in time to undo it, but can acknowledge they were wrong to do it in the first place and try to make it up as much as it can be made up.

[Peelee]

Was the ethnic cleansing an overreaction? Possible.

That's.... certainly something.

[Metahuman1]

That's.... certainly something.

So nice of you to ignore the next thing on the page there to try to make me look horrible Peelee. Really feeling the love.



Unless we find out there was some kind of rather willful attempt at something as bad or worse by humanity, or at least by noted party's within humanity at that time, not after, at that time, it is unlikely, indeed very unlikely, we will find out it was anything other than monstrous to have done.

But, like rolling a nat 100 on a D100, it's not impossible.

[Peelee]

So nice of you to ignore the next thing on the page there to try to make me look horrible Peelee. Really feeling the love.

If you think that saying ethnic cleansing is "likely an overreaction" is any better, that's on you, not me.

[Flying Turtle]

Here's a question, is dark magic really all that bad? Yes, it requires the death of magical creatures, but as both Virien and Claudia demonstrated, you can cast significant spells using only magical bugs. You needn't use sapient creatures to do so. Morally how is it any different than eating meat? While you can certainly take a stance for the lives of those magical bugs, if you turn around and consume meat I'm having a hard time seeing a way in which you're not either a hypocrite or prejudiced against nonmagical creatures.

[JadedDM]

My guess is there is some other, far darker, cost to using dark magic that hasn't been revealed yet.

[Olinser]

Sometimes I hate netflix. lol

Only nine episodes. Having Castlevania flashbacks.

So, the show is pretty good, didn't want it to end after only 9 episodes. Animation was wonky a lot of the times. Was a bit distracting.

Again, has a very Avatar vibe to it. In a good way. A lot of the humor is the same.

Has a weird,.. motif to it. Like has a lot of PC characters in it, but if I had to say something about the politics. I thing this is how it should be done. Characters are characters first. Hardly a thing is mentioned about any of our real world politics, in the pretend world. I can't wait for the host of faux-news sites to proclaim this some pc win. lol. Like, the reason people are going to love this so, is cause it has poc and stuff like that in. Instead of it being a really good show.

Although, one of the things that bothered me. Nitpick. Why would you have a high ranking officer in the military, that can't speak. Not only that, she was put to lead in one of the most contentious parts of the border. I was fine with her being a *gasp* girl!.. in actual armor... but to have her be mute too? That made the stretch of her being on the top, unbelievable.

Although, it was weird seeing sign language in a cartoon, not a bad weird, just different. On that note, does anyone know what she said to her second before she left? I wish they had some kind of CC options for that part.

Hey now Castlevania season 2 comes out in 10 days!

[Narkis]

Here's a question, is dark magic really all that bad? Yes, it requires the death of magical creatures, but as both Virien and Claudia demonstrated, you can cast significant spells using only magical bugs. You needn't use sapient creatures to do so. Morally how is it any different than eating meat? While you can certainly take a stance for the lives of those magical bugs, if you turn around and consume meat I'm having a hard time seeing a way in which you're not either a hypocrite or prejudiced against nonmagical creatures.

Err, did you see what happened to the elf in the dungeon? That was high-level dark magic, not the cantrips we usually see. And unlike meat, where eating pork us just as filling as eating human, there is a real temptation to consume more powerful creatures. Like, say, a certain egg?

[Flying Turtle]

Err, did you see what happened to the elf in the dungeon? That was high-level dark magic, not the cantrips we usually see. And unlike meat, where eating pork us just as filling as eating human, there is a real temptation to consume more powerful creatures. Like, say, a certain egg?

Do we know that the temptation is inherent or if it is just Virien's more general hunger for power?

[Olinser]

So, I watched a series on Netflix. I don't know how old it is, but it feels a lot like Avatar. The Prince seems like Aang, the half brother feels like Sokka, and the elf feels like Katarra.. but their skill sets is different for each.

What do you guys think about the show?

Also I don't see anybody that mentioned it - but it feels like Avatar because one of the head writers and directors of Avatar is the creator of Dragon Prince (Aaron Ehasz).

[Metahuman1]

If you think that saying ethnic cleansing is "likely an overreaction" is any better, that's on you, not me.

And how many other ways do I have to further explain what I was going for before your going to let it go?


Flying Turtle : Yes. However, we don't know that we know everything about Dark Magic. There could be other factors. And we've seen that it includes options for Fate Worse Than Death and WMD that seems to surpass what other schools can do. At least that we know of. And that assumes there's not more too it than that.



JadedDM: For once, I'm in a degree of agreement with you.



Flying Turtle: We don't. But we do know that all it takes to do magic in this setting is Study and a willingness to commit to it. We've seen that.

We know, or can safely infer, that Humans and likely the races in general, are want to produce people who will see power as an ends unto itself, or will have motives were in they eel that by any means necessary is an acceptable approach under the right circumstances.

And we know that Dark Magic has Fates Worse Than Death and magic WMD's. Not easy one's necessarily, but viable, and seemingly not the sort of thing other schools are individually a match or counter for at macro scales.

That would be enough to at least make there be people who think it should not be permitted. We've seen pushes for things to be banned with less evidence of either actual or potential damage that had actual credibility in the real world. The D&D Satanic Panic and Violence in Video Games controversy's come to mind.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here's a question, is dark magic really all that bad? Yes, it requires the death of magical creatures, but as both Virien and Claudia demonstrated, you can cast significant spells using only magical bugs. You needn't use sapient creatures to do so. Morally how is it any different than eating meat? While you can certainly take a stance for the lives of those magical bugs, if you turn around and consume meat I'm having a hard time seeing a way in which you're not either a hypocrite or prejudiced against nonmagical creatures.

I'm sure that's what the Wizards of Athas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun) thought at one point.x

Its like the Dark Side of The Force. It might start innocently enough but the power comes to easily and it becomes to tempting to use.

[Peelee]

And how many other ways do I have to further explain what I was going for before your going to let it go?

Since you haven't tried to further explain it yet, I'm going to go with zero. Why believe you'll suddenly start?

In any event, if you don't want to be associated with thinking that ethnic cleansing isn't only ever a monstrously evil overreaction, you could start by not saying ethnic cleansing isn't only ever a monstrously evil overreaction. Just a thought.

[Lemmy]

Since you haven't tried to further explain it yet, I'm going to go with zero. Why believe you'll suddenly start?

In any event, if you don't want to be associated with thinking that ethnic cleansing isn't only ever a monstrously evil overreaction, you could start by not saying ethnic cleansing isn't only ever a monstrously evil overreaction. Just a thought.
Sorry, but to imply that someone is ok with genocide or whatever because they aren't particularly disturbed or bothered by a FICTIONAL crime or monstrosity is ridiculous.

Or should we weep every time we see a post-apocalyptical setting?

Not knowing anything about you or the other poster, to me, this looks like you're so eager to insult the other guy that you're grasping at straws and making some seriously insane assumptions and implicationa based on nothing more than someone not treating fiction as seriously as reality.

[Peelee]

Sorry, but to imply that someone is ok with genocide or whatever because they aren't particularly disturbed or bothered by a FICTIONAL crime or monstrosity is ridiculous.

Or should we weep every time we see a post-apocalyptical setting?

Not knowing anything about you or the other poster, to me, this looks like you're so eager to insult the other guy that you're grasping at straws and making some seriously insane assumptions and implicationa based on nothing more than someone not treating fiction as seriously as reality.

Dude said that ethnic cleansing being an overreaction was possible, and at this point even likely. I'm not saying they should weep over it, I'm just saying that claiming it MAY be an overreaction is a ridiculous stance. Genocide is a pretty clear "always wrong" scenario, and it's incredibly easy to say, "ah, this group in favor of ethnic cleansing, I can definitively state that they're supposed to be in the wrong here." looking at genocide on a case-by-case basis is simply ridiculous, because genocide is pretty universally abhorrent.

[Knaight]

Sorry, but to imply that someone is ok with genocide or whatever because they aren't particularly disturbed or bothered by a FICTIONAL crime or monstrosity is ridiculous.

Or should we weep every time we see a post-apocalyptical setting?

There's a difference between not being disturbed or bothered by a fictional atrocity and explicitly stating that it was probably a reasonable response. Similarly not weeping for a post apocalyptic setting is an entirely different thing than looking at that post apocalyptic setting and going out of your way to comment that whatever brought it about was probably people making good decisions before you have any information to suggest that.

[The Fury]

Here's a question, is dark magic really all that bad? Yes, it requires the death of magical creatures, but as both Virien and Claudia demonstrated, you can cast significant spells using only magical bugs. You needn't use sapient creatures to do so. Morally how is it any different than eating meat? While you can certainly take a stance for the lives of those magical bugs, if you turn around and consume meat I'm having a hard time seeing a way in which you're not either a hypocrite or prejudiced against nonmagical creatures.

On that note, what were those glowing dealies that Claudia used to cast her location spell? Were they alive? I've been mentally calling them "glorbs" but I guess they could have been fireflies.


Or should we weep every time we see a post-apocalyptical setting?


It would make writers of post-apocalyptic stories very happy if you did. Probably.

[Metahuman1]

Hey, Knight and Peelee? If you'd stop telling lies that anyone can see are lies, that'd be greeeeeeaaaaaat.

No. I'm dead serious now. I have stated we are more likely than not to find out that it was utterly unacceptable. Just that the show hasn't show enough detail yet. I left the opening for a possibility that maybe this was going to be played say, closer to The Earth Membari War form Babylon 5 Lore. The one were in The Membari were going to wipe out every, single, human, being, end of discussion, and the Humans, in response, were going to try to research a bio weapon or something of the sort to do the same to the Membari, knowing this, as an act of self preservation. Or at least rather reasonably perceived so at the time.

I.E., NEITHER side are good guys in that situation, because BOTH of them want to wipe out the other side, it's just that one of them managed success and the other one didn't.

The Membari are still in the wrong. They wind up aknowleging this as the series goes on. They start doing things to try and correct the matter as best as it can be corrected short of messing up the whole timeline by trying to go back in time to stop it.

I suspect we might well get similar form The Dragons and The Elves.

You, however, don't even want to read one sentence after the one you've both honed in on. Let alone follow up posts. If you were, you'd not have made the last couple of posts you made.




You are refusing to acknowledge any of it and now you are both actively lying about it.

I am asking you both to stop refusing to acknowledge it and to stop lying about it.

[Peelee]

Hey, Knight and Peelee? If you'd stop telling lies that anyone can see are lies, that'd be greeeeeeaaaaaat.

No. I'm dead serious now. I have stated we are more likely than not to find out that it was utterly unacceptable. Just that the show hasn't show enough detail yet.

Dude, Im going to try out this a different way, because I really think you're grossly misunderstanding it.

If Bob says, "two plus two is prossibly four. In this scenario, it's more than likely four. We just haven't been given enough detail to show it yet," then yes, Bob is correct, but Bob also clearly doesn't understand that two plus two always equals four. Bob can double down and say, "look, I clearly said in this case it's probably four, why are you on my case," but that doesn't mean Bob understands math. In fact, that specifically demonstrates that Bob doesn't, because Bob clearly believes that it's easily possible for two plus two to not equal four.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

[Olinser]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/a6116ad72cb25df26e41f63929320532/tenor.gif?itemid=4631440

[Narkis]

Do we know that the temptation is inherent or if it is just Virien's more general hunger for power?

I don't know. I guess we'll find out in one of the later seasons. I'm pretty sure Virien's kids are gonna switch sides at some point, and I see two ways it can work: Either Dark Magic is inherently evil, and his daughter (I can't remember her name) will end up denouncing it and probably switch to exclusively regular magic; or Dark Magic is just another tool and Virien really is the problem, in which case she'll redeem Dark Magic's reputation by using it for good.

[Flying Turtle]

I don't know. I guess we'll find out in one of the later seasons. I'm pretty sure Virien's kids are gonna switch sides at some point, and I see two ways it can work: Either Dark Magic is inherently evil, and his daughter (I can't remember her name) will end up denouncing it and probably switch to exclusively regular magic; or Dark Magic is just another tool and Virien really is the problem, in which case she'll redeem Dark Magic's reputation by using it for good.

I can definitely see either of those things happening although in either case I think we might see Callum duel Claudia. Mostly because I think Callum is going to use his cube to learn how to use all six of the original sources and having him fight a roughly similarly skilled dark magic user would be a great way to compare and contrast the two approaches to magic. If they are going to go this route, Claudia's the best choice as she's not as advanced as Virien and she and Callum already have romantic tension to add to the emotion of the fight.

[Legato Endless]

I think consumption of life as a parallel to eating meat would make an interesting metaphor for a fantasy series, as it would lend the usual depiction more controversy and ambiguity than it normally gets, but I'd be surprised if they go that route here. The framing of the opening scene really seems to push that dark magic wrecks everything by killing nearby creatures to fuel the spells and the likely symbolism of corruption behind the glowing eyes. I'd quite enjoy being surprised on this.

Which is a shame because visually dark magic is by far the most entertaining branch to watch. The material requirements and more elaborate verbal and somatic make it much more dynamically intriguing on the screen than the elemental magic we've largely seen. Claudia summoning the smoke wolves is whole neat little sequence of grabbing a candle, lighting it with a cantrip, applying some animal remains, then chanting to unleash them. The lighting of the King's pyre is another nice little beat, especially with how the flame globs from one torch to the next. Contrast this with Callum's hold mana battery and point and shoot lightning.

Granted, obviously not every combat sequence will allow that (although the sheer amount of time Callum sometimes spends standing still waiting to fire makes this less onerous than it sounds), but still, none of the elemental stuff really has a similar visual kick to it. Hopefully we'll see some more elaborate fare in season 2.

[Lemmy]

Dude said that ethnic cleansing being an overreaction was possible, and at this point even likely. I'm not saying they should weep over it, I'm just saying that claiming it MAY be an overreaction is a ridiculous stance. Genocide is a pretty clear "always wrong" scenario, and it's incredibly easy to say, "ah, this group in favor of ethnic cleansing, I can definitively state that they're supposed to be in the wrong here." looking at genocide on a case-by-case basis is simply ridiculous, because genocide is pretty universally abhorrent.
You act as if the other guy had come out and said "You know... Sometimes genocide is great!". When in fact, all he said was that the show hasn't given us any information about what happened... As far as we know, maybe every single human community at the time was using dark magic and/or attacking other races, so humans as a whole were banished. It very likely isn't the case, but it's still a possibility at this point.

Hell! Even if he downright said that it was pretty cool that the elves did indeed commit genocide or whatever, that still doesn't mean he condones genocide in real life. Someone can be a card-carrying pacifist who wouldn't harm a fly and still take delight at playing Mortal Kombat and watching gore-fest horror movies. I don't know about you, but I have definitely enjoyed (even laughed at) fictional situations that would make me horrified if they were real.

I know enough not to take fiction nearly as serious as real life. I bet Metahuman1 does too. And so do you. So let's be honest, get off our high horses and stop acting like the guy had condoned real-life genocide.

[Peelee]

You act as if the other guy had come out and said "You know... Sometimes genocide is great!". When in fact, all he said was that the show hasn't given us any information about what happened... As far as we know, maybe every single human community at the time was using dark magic and/or attacking other races, so humans as a whole were banished. It very likely isn't the case, but it's still a possibility at this point.

Hell! Even if he downright said that it was pretty cool that the elves did indeed commit genocide or whatever, that still doesn't mean he condones genocide in real life. Someone can be a card-carrying pacifist who wouldn't harm a fly and still take delight at playing Mortal Kombat and watching gore-fest horror movies. I don't know about you, but I have definitely enjoyed (even laughed at) fictional situations that would make me horrified if they were real.

I know enough not to take fiction nearly as serious as real life. I bet Metahuman1 does too. And so do you. So let's be honest, get off our high horses and stop acting like the guy had condoned real-life genocide.

Look dude, if someone says even about a work of fiction, "was the ethnic cleansing an overreaction?" I'm not gonna give them the benefit of the doubt, because that's a patently ridiculous question to ask in the first place. Nobody has ever said you have to be horrified by this. I've only ever said that was a colosally stupid thing to say. I'm not saying you shouldn't watch Law & Order: SVU, I'm saying you shouldn't watch that and think, "was raping that kid an overreaction? Possible. Hell, at this point even likely." Because surprise, that's a messed up thought.

[Flying Turtle]

I think consumption of life as a parallel to eating meat would make an interesting metaphor for a fantasy series, as it would lend the usual depiction more controversy and ambiguity than it normally gets, but I'd be surprised if they go that route here. The framing of the opening scene really seems to push that dark magic wrecks everything by killing nearby creatures to fuel the spells and the likely symbolism of corruption behind the glowing eyes. I'd quite enjoy being surprised on this.

Which is a shame because visually dark magic is by far the most entertaining branch to watch. The material requirements and more elaborate verbal and somatic make it much more dynamically intriguing on the screen than the elemental magic we've largely seen. Claudia summoning the smoke wolves is whole neat little sequence of grabbing a candle, lighting it with a cantrip, applying some animal remains, then chanting to unleash them. The lighting of the King's pyre is another nice little beat, especially with how the flame globs from one torch to the next. Contrast this with Callum's hold mana battery and point and shoot lightning.

Granted, obviously not every combat sequence will allow that (although the sheer amount of time Callum sometimes spends standing still waiting to fire makes this less onerous than it sounds), but still, none of the elemental stuff really has a similar visual kick to it. Hopefully we'll see some more elaborate fare in season 2.

I'm absolutely hoping for some sort of ambiguity/controversy with respect to dark magic. Although I also agree that the story so far has not been encouraging on this particular front. Still, I'm hoping my meat analogy shows up.

As for the elemental magic not really being all that elaborate, I think that has more to do with both the simplicity of Callum's spells and the fact that he's got the orb. I imagine if he wanted to cast those same spells with out the orb there would be more steps although that is just speculation.

[Lemmy]

Look dude, if someone says even about a work of fiction, "was the ethnic cleansing an overreaction?" I'm not gonna give them the benefit of the doubt, because that's a patently ridiculous question to ask in the first place. Nobody has ever said you have to be horrified by this. I've only ever said that was a colosally stupid thing to say. I'm not saying you shouldn't watch Law & Order: SVU, I'm saying you shouldn't watch that and think, "was raping that kid an overreaction? Possible. Hell, at this point even likely." Because surprise, that's a messed up thought.And therein lies the problem...

Well... You go on acting like fiction is a serious as real-life and Metahuman1 defended genocide... I'll go on laughing at black humor jokes and enjoying Mortal Kombat.

[Zalabim]

And add one other thing, a mention at the end by the Elf Mage that that cube thing the prince got from the winter lodge is in fact another primal stone, but a much much older and more powerful one, because it can use all 6 Elements if you know what your doing.
I wanted to catch this here earlier, but better late than never. Maybe better late after all, all things considered. Anyway.

I'm pretty sure all that cube does, and all it needs to do, and all it makes sense to do is detect magic. If it were an incredibly powerful artifact with an unknown use, it wouldn't be left around the game room at the winter lodge. It would have been in Viren's secret lab or something. If it's a teaching tool for new mages, something to point out sources of magic that can power your spells until you know them all yourself, then it might be left there since Claudia and Viren have no need of such a thing any longer. If Callum is going to learn more magic, it could still be very useful to him without being some secret uber artifact. The only thing he needs on top of that is an English-to-dragon dictionary, and I suppose that could be its secret function. I doubt it'll go that way though.

[The Fury]

And therein lies the problem...

Well... You go on acting like fiction is a serious as real-life and Metahuman1 defended genocide... I'll go on laughing at black humor jokes and enjoying Mortal Kombat.

OK, I'm too persnickety to let the point on black comedy go. Black comedy, weirdly enough, has to acknowledge the appalling, serious side of what's happening in order for the joke to land. Just as an example, the climactic scene in Cat's Cradle...

Papa Monzano commits suicide by ingesting Ice 9 and it freezes him solid. Later a plane accidentally crashes into his palace causing his body to fall out into the sea, (in a boat, which makes the image even sillier,) causing all the world's oceans to freeze. Then there's apocalyptic storms, nearly everyone in the world dies and it's the end of the world. All the while, the ridiculousness of the situation makes the scenario funny. In a sort of this is how the world ends? kind of way. Humor is subjective of course, but I feel like if the situation were treated as less dire, the absurdity of it wouldn't have been as funny.

But yeah... The Dragon Prince...


I wanted to catch this here earlier, but better late than never. Maybe better late after all, all things considered. Anyway.

I'm pretty sure all that cube does, and all it needs to do, and all it makes sense to do is detect magic. If it were an incredibly powerful artifact with an unknown use, it wouldn't be left around the game room at the winter lodge. It would have been in Viren's secret lab or something. If it's a teaching tool for new mages, something to point out sources of magic that can power your spells until you know them all yourself, then it might be left there since Claudia and Viren have no need of such a thing any longer. If Callum is going to learn more magic, it could still be very useful to him without being some secret uber artifact. The only thing he needs on top of that is an English-to-dragon dictionary, and I suppose that could be its secret function. I doubt it'll go that way though.

What occurs to me is that the cube could actually be sort of useful to a practiced Dark Magic user too. When certain creatures can be used as fuel for spells, it's pretty handy to be able to figure out which ones can be used for what.

As demonstrated when our trio of heroes was on the boat, it's a pretty handy early warning device too. Though it might be a little less useful when they get to Xadia, if it's as full of magic as has been said, it would probably just glow all the time.

[Metahuman1]

Zalabim : Sure it would. It's like having a spare key to your house, outside your house. You find an pole with electrical lines that's not actually active within a reasonable distance, put a fuse style box on it, lable it "Danger: High Voltage." or whatever, and then stick the key in there. No one's going to want to go looking there.

And no one's going to go looking for my spare high caliber magic focus in The Kings Winter Lodge. Lease of all anyone able to figure out it's anything other than a trinket. There whole traditional thing is to leave the magic to me and mine and be sword-masters and what not.


As for just being a learning aid, the implication we get is that magic is not something you learn quickly. Unless the game plan is to keep both of the 2 princes both capped to a level were there not able to substantially contribute to combat situations, or let the older one find another Primal Stone he can grab that isn't The Cube, or make him an extreme prodigy so he's able to rapidly get up to snuff as it were, then it makes sense to render him able to still participate in his own defense.

Also it spares us the Sokka "I can't pull my own weight too often once we get past planning and into actually doing things." arc being repeated.





The Fury:

To Quote Joseph Stalin: "Dark Humor is like Food. Not everyone get's it."

XD!


But seriously, Peelee is reading things into the post that were never there.

And worse, he'd basically declaring that shows like Babylon 5 or StarGate SG1 or novels like Robert Heinline's Starship Troopers (Not the movie, the novel, just the novel. Don't even go there.) are all inherently evil and shouldn't be permitted to exist. And that anyone involved with making them is also Inherently Evil and should be treated as such.

For the crime of having very dark situations and shades of moral grey in massive scale events at times.


Hell by that assessment Attack on Titan and all the people who work to get that franchise coming out with new stuff to this very day are horrible and evil.

I could almost get behind that one, but because of why he paints them as so, I'd have to grudgingly defend it. (Which sucks cause I think everyone here knows just how much I despise Attack on Titan and a massive chunk of it's Fan base, if admittedly there are people in it whom are exceptions to this.).







Anyway, unless were going to get a substantive time skip (I don't think the Narrative is set up to handle one long enough to justify it.), or were going to get him finding another Primal Stone thing elsewhere that isn't the cube, or were going to have him be some unbelievable Azula if she wasn't evil or Avatar Korra caliber Prodigy at magic, I think there just going to go with the cube being a Primal stone. Maybe a really awesome one, but a Primal Stone anyway.

It just seems to fit. Though I fully concede, I could be wrong on this one.

[Knaight]

And worse, he'd basically declaring that shows like Babylon 5 or StarGate SG1 or novels like Robert Heinline's Starship Troopers (Not the movie, the novel, just the novel. Don't even go there.) are all inherently evil and shouldn't be permitted to exist. And that anyone involved with making them is also Inherently Evil and should be treated as such.

It must be convenient to not only pretend that the things you said in an argument were fabricated by your opponent, but to also blatantly fabricate your opponent's position. Also, unlike you, Babylon 5 is strongly against ethnic cleaning - it comes up, and not particularly subtly.

[The Fury]

And no one's going to go looking for my spare high caliber magic focus in The Kings Winter Lodge. Lease of all anyone able to figure out it's anything other than a trinket. There whole traditional thing is to leave the magic to me and mine and be sword-masters and what not.

I'm guessing you mean suggest that Harrow was hiding a powerful magic relic in plain sight?

No, nobody's going to look for super-powerful magical tchotchkes in the King's winter lodge. Someone might go looking for random loot and trinkets in the King's winter lodge though. If they were feeling especially bold that is. That is a thief might break in looking to snag some royal jewelry or something and end up netting a super magic tchotchke instead.

For this reason, I don't think Harrow would leave something powerful just sitting in the game room of his winter lodge. Unless he had no idea what it was.


The Fury:

To Quote Joseph Stalin: "Dark Humor is like Food. Not everyone get's it."

XD!


Heh. On that note "Was genocide an overreaction? Probably." is a pretty good dark comedy joke... Wait, was that your point from the beginning?

[Lemmy]

(...) Also, unlike you, Babylon 5 is strongly against ethnic cleaning (...)
...

This has to be one of the most hyperbolic and undeserved insults I've seen in these forums in a long time...

"You say we don't have enough information to know what happened in a show's backstory and aren't particularly bothered about fictional war crimes? Obviously you're pro-genocide!"

Seriously?

[Peelee]

...

This has to be one of the most hyperbolic and undeserved insults I've seen in these forums in a long time...

"You say we don't have enough information to know what happened in a show's backstory and aren't particularly bothered about fictional war crimes? Obviously you're pro-genocide!"

Seriously?

Dude, seriously, it's pretty simple. If someone says, "two plus two probably equals four in this case," that means they believe that it doesn't in all cases*. Nobody has ever said Metahuman was pro-genocide, so stop beating that poor strawman. I have said "Metahuman, genocide is always wrong, this isn't a difficult concept to grasp, please grasp it" multiple times, albeit in different words.

tl;dr - stop changing what I'm saying in your head and you probably won't have a problem with what I'm saying.

*Different bases don't matter for this analogy.

[Metahuman1]

It must be convenient to not only pretend that the things you said in an argument were fabricated by your opponent, but to also blatantly fabricate your opponent's position. Also, unlike you, Babylon 5 is strongly against ethnic cleaning - it comes up, and not particularly subtly.

You tell me, it's about the size of what you and Peelee are doing to me after all.


Want to claim otherwise, tell me this.

Is humanity intrinsically evil in Babylon 5?

Or in Star Gate SG1?

Or in Robert Heinlien's Starship Troopers Novel? (JUST the novel, thank you very much.)

Or Attack On Titan?


If the answer to any of those 4 questions is "No", then your fabricating nonsense.


Now tell me this.


Are the people who made Babylon 5 Evil for having made it?

Same for Stargate SG1?

And Robert Heinlien and the people responsible for making sure Starship Troopers got published once it was written?

And for Attack on Titan's creator as well as the people who work on the various Manga and Anime, except for that Chibi Parody one that's a massive self lampooning?


If the answer to any of those 4 questions is "No", your dealing in double standards at a minimum.







I'm guessing you mean suggest that Harrow was hiding a powerful magic relic in plain sight?

No, nobody's going to look for super-powerful magical tchotchkes in the King's winter lodge. Someone might go looking for random loot and trinkets in the King's winter lodge though. If they were feeling especially bold that is. That is a thief might break in looking to snag some royal jewelry or something and end up netting a super magic tchotchke instead.

For this reason, I don't think Harrow would leave something powerful just sitting in the game room of his winter lodge. Unless he had no idea what it was.

More likely Verrin. After all, it seems like he'd be the kind of guy to leave a spell trap there for actual thieves, and make sure to exempt the members of the royal family so as not to have an accident he might be blamed for.

That way it's hidden, protected if someone stumbled on it, and he knows the only people likely to move it are The Royal Family, whom are not magic users, thus won't figure it out with out him, and he can just lie at that stage if he must.

And again, if were going with the assumption that something valuable wouldn't be there if it was magic, well, were given to understand that all magic has value to humans and to Verin in particular. It makes no sense it would be there unless it was a hide in plain sight thing or he didn't know about it at all.

And Narratively, it's less cluttered to just have the hide in plain sight thing combined with the powerful magic tool that the prince can use to contribute to his own protection and learning during the quest.


Heh. On that note "Was genocide an overreaction? Probably." is a pretty good dark comedy joke... Wait, was that your point from the beginning?


As for Dark Humor. Partially. I was trying to draw a comparison to some situations that come in other works, like the one's listed above. Wiping out the Delgar and Trying REALLY hard to wipe out The Membari in B5, The Replicators in SG1, a rather massive chunk of Starship Troopers the Novel being all about a war were only 1 side can survive between two species, meaning to live through this existential threat one of them must be wiped out by the other one's hand, and the frequent general sentiment by I don't even know anymore how many major protagonists in Attack on Titan that All Titans Must Die for humanity to survive.

All of which seem to be generally justified cases of Genocide or attempted Genocide given the context there happening in.

I was trying to make the point it is POSSIBLE, merely possible, that the creators will pull the rug out from under the audience, make that component of the central conflict that much more morally grey and ambiguous, and just generally avoid the expected treatments of the elf/human/dragon dynamics in this, perhaps among other ways.

That we may find out humanity were NOT the innocent victims we, and the humans of hundreds or thousands or however long it's been (You know how story's often change in the telling over long periods of time.) of years ago actually did do something more that presented them in close proximity to the Elves and Dragons as an existential threat to the elves and dragons, if anything lesser too what happened, happened.


That they may go further still, and make the use of removing the humans form those lands still be unacceptable somehow. Creating a situation were there was, at the end of the day, no hero's, no good guys, no one with any moral high ground to stand on. Just a lot of people who are all in the wrong, have been for a long time, and need to make the choice to stop and try to rectify the situation there in NOW, instead of carrying grudges from century's or millennia ago.

They might well not. They probably will not in fact.



I was also trying, at the same time, to be snarky about it. Picture that sentence that seems to have set Peelee and Knaight into this little tizzy being said by John Cleese or Daria Morgandorffer, I suspect You'll begin to get it.



It would seem I phrased it badly, and Peelee, in spite of his insistence, has latched onto that and refuses to let it go. And has moved to assuming I support Genocide in the real world and am a horrible person.

Which brings me too,


Dude, seriously, it's pretty simple. If someone says, "two plus two probably equals four in this case," that means they believe that it doesn't in all cases*. Nobody has ever said Metahuman was pro-genocide, so stop beating that poor strawman. I have said "Metahuman, genocide is always wrong, this isn't a difficult concept to grasp, please grasp it" multiple times, albeit in different words.

tl;dr - stop changing what I'm saying in your head and you probably won't have a problem with what I'm saying.

*Different bases don't matter for this analogy.

Let's deal with the main body of this. The size boxed thing is irrelevant so I won't be bothering with it past this.


Ok. You are asserting, about me, that I believe there are cases were Genocide is not wrong. By any rational, thinking persons assessment Peelee, that is, in point of fact saying that I am, in point of fact, Pro-Genocide.

It's not a straw man if your actually doing it by any reasonable standard.

Especially when you then combine it, by your own now provided explanation, that you believe I have somehow failed to understand that Genocide is ALWAYS wrong.

Saying "You don't grasp Genocide is always wrong, it's easy to grasp that Genocide is always wrong. Please Grasp that Genocide is always wrong." presents itself as "Ok, your too stupid to not be pro genocide by thinking eve for an instant it's not always wrong, so I'm going to step in and fix that your pro genocide by publically calling you out and smearing you for not claiming strongly enough to suit me that Genocide is defiantly wrong in a case were you don't have all the information, but neither do I, but it's always wrong so we don't need silly things like information.".



Lemmy has pointed out the humor facets, as have I now. You have stanchly ignored that.

Lemmy and I have also pointed out the fictional universes aspect of it. You have stanchly ignored that as well.



Your little tl;dr, were you accuse me of changing what your saying, doesn't apply.

The only way it could would be if I'm reading things into it that aren't there. Which is what you are willfully at this point doing to me, so guess what, if I'm wrong for that, your just as wrong for the exact same thing, and your the one who started it.


And not changing it, I do have a problem. My problem is you are smearing me, doing what you accuse me to be doing. And you have made it very clear you have 0 intention of stopping unless I leave the forum, and even then you smear me with this over it if my name is ever mentioned and you see it. I have a perfectly valid and reasonable problem with that.


Now, I want you to do the same thing I asked of Kniaght up post.

Want to claim otherwise to what I have claimed, tell me this.

Is humanity intrinsically evil in Babylon 5?

Or in Star Gate SG1?

Or in Robert Heinlien's Starship Troopers Novel? (JUST the novel, thank you very much.)

Or Attack On Titan?


If the answer to any of those 4 questions is "No", then your fabricating nonsense.


Now tell me this.


Are the people who made Babylon 5 Evil for having made it?

Same for Stargate SG1?

And Robert Heinlien and the people responsible for making sure Starship Troopers got published once it was written?

And for Attack on Titan's creator as well as the people who work on the various Manga and Anime, except for that Chibi Parody one that's a massive self lampooning?


If the answer to any of those 4 questions is "No", your dealing in double standards at a minimum.





And just because you are determined, it would seem, to show your backside, take this with your for posterity.


*Small throat clearing noise.*


I DO NOT SUPPORT THE USE OF REAL WORLD GENOCIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM WILLING TO HUMOR AND WORK WITH FICTION THAT HAS GROUPS AND CHARACTERS USE GENOCIDE UNDER CERTAIN CIRCOMSTANCES, SOME EXAMPLES OF WHICH I HAVE ALREADY SUPPLIED!!!!! I DO NOT, HOWEVER, SUPPORT ALLOWING THIS INTO THE REAL WORLD, JUST LIKE I DO NOT SUPPORT VIGILANTIE JUSTICE EVEN IF I LIKE MOVIES OR COMIC BOOKS OR THE LIKE CENTERED AROUND USING IT TO SOLVE PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!

Is that sufficiently clear for you on were I stand? I can make the font another size or two bigger if you like.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.