Dodge Tank Building

[Bannan_mantis]

I am planning to play a High Dex based character in a campaign and was thinking of them being a front liner and with them able to dodge most attacks made against them. My main question is what things make a build like this work, what tips would you give for feats, race, class, subclass etc.

[Dualswinger]

Sadly having a high DEX only guarantees you to have a high dex save. Ironically to get the "you can't touch me" kind of AC you'd need to go heavy armor. The Trick to this is to find as many classes with AC boosts as you can, without using the ones that "set" your AC to a specific number (Barb, Monk, Mage Armour).

The best Race/Class combo IMO is dropping two levels into Bladesinger Wizard as an envoy or skirmisher Warforged (DM permitting because of Race.)

While your Bladesong is active, you'd be sitting at an AC of 11+Dex+Int+Prof, which if you've assigned your next highest Attribute to INT is at least 19 at level 4. After that its a case of seeing what other effects you can stack on.

Rogue is the obvious choice. It allows to have DEX saves if you choose it as your level 1, allows you to dodge as a bonus action, and gives you uncanny dodge for when you do get hit to minimize that damage.

Further levels of Bladesong unlocks the ability to turn spell slots into straight up damage reduction, more Shield spell slots, plus Haste for some more AC (and other benefits).

Hunter Ranger can give you multi-attack defence if you go up against single targets often.

Shoutout to cleric and Paladin for Shield of Faith that allows you to concentrate on a +2ac for a 1st level spell slot. (If you decided to NOT go Warforged for your ac, then being a cleric of the forge can let you stack some more AC bonus on your light armor)

[LudicSavant]

Sadly having a high DEX only guarantees you to have a high dex save. Ironically to get the "you can't touch me" kind of AC you'd need to go heavy armor.

How do you figure, exactly? The benefit of heavy armor is 1 AC or less, depending on build and equipment access.

[Dualswinger]

How do you figure, exactly? The benefit of heavy armor is 1 AC or less, depending on build and equipment access.

If we take AC in abenstia of any class abilities:

The best Light Armour is 12 + Dex, meaning max 17, whereas the Full Plate is 18. Many light armour preferring classes (but not all I grant) don't like using shields, so there's that in favour of the heavy armour team.

Usually the none-to-light armour classes have some kind of combat trick to disengage so that they aren't attacked as often, which is their saving grace, but to get that AC high enough to laugh off Red Dragon attacks, you need to go heavy.

[Mystical-man]

If we take AC in abenstia of any class abilities:

The best Light Armour is 12 + Dex, meaning max 17, whereas the Full Plate is 18. Many light armour preferring classes (but not all I grant) don't like using shields, so there's that in favour of the heavy armour team.

Usually the none-to-light armour classes have some kind of combat trick to disengage so that they aren't attacked as often, which is their saving grace, but to get that AC high enough to laugh off Red Dragon attacks, you need to go heavy.

I disagree with this one, most people who build a character with dexterity in mind will go for the rapier/shield strategy which buffs them up to 19 AC if they have +5 dex which if you compare to heavy armour, longsword/shield it's 20 AC. Also certain class abilities do just decrease damage or avoid attacks entirely which can make them just as good, uncanny dodge, patient defence, parry, evasive footwork etc. Also some feats to optimise them if you were say playing a high dex fighter would definitely be defensive duelist and having initiative can also be good as it lets you set up more before the enemy attacks instead of just taking them to the face the first few turns. Plus abilities like evasion can mean your heavy armour tank takes a lot of damage while you don't take any

While most heavy armour tanks will have better Health and usually AC (dependant on the build) the Dex tanks are usually taking less damage and being attacked less so they can be evenly built and they can both be better than each over but that is dependant on the situation

[Dualswinger]

I disagree with this one, most people who build a character with dexterity in mind will go for the rapier/shield strategy which buffs them up to 19 AC if they have +5 dex which if you compare to heavy armour, longsword/shield it's 20 AC. Also certain class abilities do just decrease damage or avoid attacks entirely which can make them just as good, uncanny dodge, patient defence, parry, evasive footwork etc. Also some feats to optimise them if you were say playing a high dex fighter would definitely be defensive duelist and having initiative can also be good as it lets you set up more before the enemy attacks instead of just taking them to the face the first few turns. Plus abilities like evasion can mean your heavy armour tank takes a lot of damage while you don't take any

While most heavy armour tanks will have better Health and usually AC (dependant on the build) the Dex tanks are usually taking less damage and being attacked less so they can be evenly built and they can both be better than each over but that is dependant on the situation

I agree with everything you say. I was talking merely in terms of having the biggest AC number.

[Mystical-man]

I agree with everything you say. I was talking merely in terms of having the biggest AC number.

Ahhh my apologies then, I thought you were implying a dex based tank is just worse than a heavy armoured one

Just one note for the build though, monks tend to be very good for dex based builds and with their unarmored defence and a 20 in dex and wis (which I know is something that will come late game) you can get 20 AC and wield a two handed weapon which is always pretty good and the Barbarian can do that with Dex and Con only they can also use a shield for 22 AC

[Lunali]

Ahhh my apologies then, I thought you were implying a dex based tank is just worse than a heavy armoured one

Just one note for the build though, monks tend to be very good for dex based builds and with their unarmored defence and a 20 in dex and wis (which I know is something that will come late game) you can get 20 AC and wield a two handed weapon which is always pretty good and the Barbarian can do that with Dex and Con only they can also use a shield for 22 AC

As a bonus, monk can spend a ki point to dodge as a bonus action, giving enemies disadvantage on attacks is usually more effective than armor.

[Spiritchaser]

I’ll throw in a few other considerations:

1. Disadvantage. Find a way to force this on your opponent. This isn’t specific to Dex builds, but it’s pretty important for them.

A Bladesinger/EK Running blur, or a monk dodging, or a hexblade with Shadow of Moil are all great at this. A Dex conquest Pally can (somewhat) do the same thing with their fear.

Disadvantage is also a pseudo defence against crits

2. A reactive defence. The shield spell is probably the king, but defensive duelist is good too. I imagine arcane deflection would be wanting here but I’ve never seen it.

3. HP there’s no getting around it, extra health is good. A pure bladesinger can take a lot of exactly the right kind of abuse, but if you’re going to tank, you don’t want a glass Jaw

Take care of this and you’re part way there. Just take care of magic damage/wisdom/Con saves, then most of all, find a way to make yourself sticky.

Probably not what you want, but Dex conquest paladin does this absurdly well after level 7.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, a Dex-based Eldritch Knight can do a pretty respectable job of that all by itself-- good health, Second Wind, spells like Shield and Absorb Elements... Something like EK 8/Bladesinger 2 would be fantastic.

[Specter]

Monk can do it. You'll want to max your DEX and WIS as soon as you can for 20AC, and then use Patient Defense to dodge as a bonus action. Another good thing is taking Battlemaster 3 for Riposte so you can smash when they miss.

But the real problem is having enemies target you instead of someone else; Open Hand is probably the best for that since you can trip enemies that way.

[MaxWilson]

I am planning to play a High Dex based character in a campaign and was thinking of them being a front liner and with them able to dodge most attacks made against them. My main question is what things make a build like this work, what tips would you give for feats, race, class, subclass etc.

There's a concept I've been wanting to play for a while that I think would work here too: Dex-based Cavalier/Diviner with Defensive Duelist and Blur.

Level 1: Fighter 1, Defensive Duelist feat (human)
Level 2: Fighter 1/Wizard 1, Find Familiar, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Booming Blade
Level 4: Cavalier 3/Wizard 1, can now protect others from aggression, possibly dual-wielding for two attacks
Level 5: Cavalier 3/Diviner 2, Portent comes online, Booming Blade gets stronger, more spell slots for Shield
Level 6: Cavalier 3/Diviner 3, Blur comes online so you can protect yourself at the same time as others
Level 7: Cavalier 4/Diviner 3, ASI. Either boost Dex or take a feat. Sharpshooter if you took Archery style at level 1, maybe Mobile if you took Duelist or Defense.
Level 8: Cavalier 5/Diviner 3, Extra Attack for even better tanking.

By level 2 you've got advantage on one attack per round from a familiar, AC 18ish (+2 from Defensive Duelist, or +5 once per day when it really matters), and an attack (Booming Blade) which encourages enemies not to bypass you and go for the squishies. By level 8 you are quite a good bodyguard/tank for someone else in the party and you may even pack a lot of offensive punch with Sharpshooter if you picked that, so you can play frontliner or backliner as you please.

[RickAsWritten]

Dwarven Drunk Monk with Dwarven Fortitude? You could position yourself on the front line, Dodge, and heal yourself if needed. Then use Redirect Attack to get damage in off-turn.

[djreynolds]

A tank needs to draw attacks and have damage reduction but not such a high AC where it becomes futile to attack you.

A barbarian dies this because of reckless attack and running around naked. Meaning, you have to deal with the barbarian but the barbarian appears vulnerable and then the enemy attacks.

A rogue does this well uncanny dodge and painful sneak attacks.

IMO, high A.C. and HP just makes a meat shield. I'm going to ignore you till later.

A well made EK, which is awesome, is sometimes ignored because the A.C. is really tough to hit.

Having an insanely high AC is awesome, but why am I going to attack you?

A 5th level swashbuckler rogue can tank effectively, makes for a very dexterous tank, because your AC probably 17. This may work for you.

An A.C. over 20 might get ignored

A tank dares you to attack, they want to get hit. A meat shield is just in the way.

[Tanarii]

Make sure you have acrobatics so you can avoid Grapples. Those are unaffected by Dodge, and a good tactic for enemies to use again opponents who are doing that. Nice had many players discover that when they have lower level henchmen try to form a line of combat between them and the enemy, only to have them dragged out of the line, surrounded by the enemy, and opening holes in the line.

Also take into account doing a Dex tank requires putting your ASI into Dex asap if you want to maintain a comparable AC to a Str Tank. The latter can use them on Con or Feats, leaving Str at 16 or 18 for later levels. Especially if you're going to be spending your action on Dodge a lot instead of attacking.

Edit: also think about likely terrain and Allies. To tank effectively you need choke points you can make a line of combat in. Otherwise, as mentioned above, enemies can just ignore you to go after softer appearing targets. (Wearing lighter armor may help here, depending on the basis your DM uses to determine enemy targeting.)

[JackPhoenix]

Rogue is the obvious choice. It allows to have DEX saves if you choose it as your level 1, allows you to dodge as a bonus action, and gives you uncanny dodge for when you do get hit to minimize that damage.

Cunning Action doesn't allow for BA Dodge. Monk's Patient Defense does, but it costs you ki, meaning you can't do it all day, and you'll limit your ability to do damage and other effects.

[Speely]

I'll add to the Monk suggestions, but specifically Kensei.

Max Dex and Wis, Patient Defense, and Agile Parry. As a tank, you should be willing to give up a bit of damage to use Agile Parry every round if you are trying to "tank."

That's 22 AC, but a bit MAD. We are talking ceilings here, though, yes?

I would say that a Rogue could be good here as well with Uncanny Dodge, as it's SUPER effective, but straight-up misses are generally better than dmg reduction in most cases.

All that said, I feel like this kind of DEXy dodge tank isn't really a tank because they don't have ways to make enemies attack them by default.

So let me throw this weird idea out there:

A Shadar Kai Dex Barbarian (Path of the Ancestral Guardian) with at least one level of Fighter.

You are losing out on Rage damage, but taking Dueling as a Fighting Style (from Fighter) helps mitigate that some. With a high Dex and Con, and a shield, you have great unarmored AC, and Ancestral Guardian actually gives you mechanics to punish enemies who don't attack you.

Once you get Con and Dex up, you are basically trolling enemies who ignore you, and Rage still gives you DR. Also, if you roll super-well, you can still have a high enough Str to use your Finesse weapon as a Str weapon when raging if the Rage bonus takes it higher than a net +5. Remember, Finesse weapons CAN be used with Dex. They don't have to be.

Shadar Kai gives you nice elf goodies for tanks like Fey Ancestry as well as yet another form of DR, with a teleport involved.

I dunno, I am kinda rambling, but I feel like Monks and Rogues can be really good dodgers, but to me just avoiding damage does not a tank make. Directing the damage is also important, and Ancestral Guardian is pretty damn good at that.

[Spiritchaser]

Out of curiosity, how would you make a Kensai sticky?

I know you can still stunning strike but that seems a bit limited

[Teaguethebean]

If playing monk get bracers of defense as soon as possible

[Xihirli]

Sadly having a high DEX only guarantees you to have a high dex save. Ironically to get the "you can't touch me" kind of AC you'd need to go heavy armor. The Trick to this is to find as many classes with AC boosts as you can, without using the ones that "set" your AC to a specific number (Barb, Monk, Mage Armour).

The best Race/Class combo IMO is dropping two levels into Bladesinger Wizard as an envoy or skirmisher Warforged (DM permitting because of Race.)

While your Bladesong is active, you'd be sitting at an AC of 11+Dex+Int+Prof, which if you've assigned your next highest Attribute to INT is at least 19 at level 4. After that its a case of seeing what other effects you can stack on.

Rogue is the obvious choice. It allows to have DEX saves if you choose it as your level 1, allows you to dodge as a bonus action, and gives you uncanny dodge for when you do get hit to minimize that damage.

Further levels of Bladesong unlocks the ability to turn spell slots into straight up damage reduction, more Shield spell slots, plus Haste for some more AC (and other benefits).

Hunter Ranger can give you multi-attack defence if you go up against single targets often.

Shoutout to cleric and Paladin for Shield of Faith that allows you to concentrate on a +2ac for a 1st level spell slot. (If you decided to NOT go Warforged for your ac, then being a cleric of the forge can let you stack some more AC bonus on your light armor)

Rogue does not allow you to dodge as a bonus action.

[AttilatheYeon]

Out of curiosity, how would you make a Kensai sticky?

I know you can still stunning strike but that seems a bit limited

Just like any other class...





Sovereign glue 😉

[Alexwellace]

Shout out to the college of Swords/BattleMaster/Hexblade multiclass. Defensive flourish alongside evasive footwork alongside Shield or Defensive duellist can make for a few turns of absolutely ridiculous AC, or quite a few turns of very respectable AC. I’m taking College of Swords and the mobile trait, then the Warlock spell expeditious retreat, so I can run in, strike twice, and either dash away somewhere else or keep them pinned using my 3/4 turns of ridiculous AC.