Char idea

[Hunterx]

Ok so I have this char idea that is based off the RL magician Shin Lim if you have never seen his work you need to watch this guy.

Back to char idea, shin is a sleight of hand specialist he is crazy good at this very charismatic and plays the piano

To optimize sleight I would have to go mongralfolk as they get a +4 to it but they take a -4 to Cha any other ideas to max out sleight of hand .

[Thurbane]

You might find some ideas here: [3.5] The Lightning Thief: Epic Sleight of Hand Abuse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080)

[Zaq]

Huh. At first I thought you were talking about An Ha Lim (https://youtu.be/tHjaRbTfHmQ), but they seem to be different people. They just have a common element to their names and a common element to their magic acts. Nifty!

Anyway, yeah, I think Thurbane’s on the right track with the Lightning Thief. If you wanted a more combat-oriented take on something that could be described as something similar to the magicians and their acts, I’m thinking a handful of persisted Clouds of Knives, refluffed as cards. Keep that “free action” element going, you know?

[Hunterx]

Yeah what I came up with for a level 9 char is a Phrnic Mongralfolk Rogue6 marshal1
Stats before adjustments were
Str 17 Dex 18 con 14 wis 14 int 16 Cha 18
Once template and race factored in and level 4 they as follows

Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Wis 16 int 16 Cha 18
That gives me sleight of hand of ranks 10 Dex 4 aura 4 race 4 synergy 2 X 1 for a 25

Took the criminal feats and if it passes the DM it will be a lot of fun. But the DM is a bit of a rooster so it most likely will not. But I will try.

[death390]

if your looking for a magic class with SoH Beguiiler is good (weakness to mindless since mostly ench/ illu spells)

[Hunterx]

So I got master pickpocket to go through and once I said cant wait to steal armour off of people our rooster of a DM said you can't do that because it is not realelistic no crap Shurlock it is a fantacy game were magic to teleport around the world can happen but stealing his pants while he is wearing them no no not real enough. Our DM is a true rooster of a person and flips things for his benifit instead of letting the players make fun interesting characters. Think it is time to put him down like a old dog. Old yeller anyone.

Now I need to come up w it's something that is fun for me will drive the DM nuts but not make it look like I made him ego nuts.

Any ideas. Would be great Lv 10 for the level

[Saintheart]

Here's an idea: how about we don't use character builds to passively-aggressively annoy the snot out of the DM, and instead do the outwardly but much more honest and aggressive thing and punch the DM in the face in order to resolve our personal issues with him? Better yet, why don't we move from Old Yeller metaphors to literality and sport a nice Glock to our next session?

Or if we're not going to go with the outwardly aggressive thing, leaving a group where you're not having fun is probably not a bad alternative to attempting to Win D&D By Proving Your System Mastery Is Greater Than That Of The DM.

[PunBlake]

So I got master pickpocket to go through and once I said cant wait to steal armour off of people our rooster of a DM said you can't do that because it is not realelistic no crap Shurlock it is a fantacy game were magic to teleport around the world can happen but stealing his pants while he is wearing them no no not real enough. Our DM is a true rooster of a person and flips things for his benifit instead of letting the players make fun interesting characters. Think it is time to put him down like a old dog. Old yeller anyone.

Now I need to come up w it's something that is fun for me will drive the DM nuts but not make it look like I made him ego nuts.

Any ideas. Would be great Lv 10 for the level

If you really, really want to steal armor from someone, it's exceptionally hard. Doing it in combat using Sleight rules is basically impossible. Why? Armor (and other securely worn items) are usually held in place with buckles and straps. That's why there's a table in the PHB for how long it takes to put on and take off armor. Some of the lighter armors are just shirts with no straps. If you're noticed even once, the foe can resist you, and you'll move to grapple or disarm rules after the armor has been made fully insecure.

There are no rules to support this, but this is how I would DM stealing armor.

It would take 5-10 rounds of Sleight checks and/or touch attacks/uses of mage hand to undo all the straps holding armor onto a target to make it possible to steal (if the armor is made this way; shirts are basically impossible to steal from an aware foe, and plate would take longer). During this time, the armor would become progressively less secure and the changes more and more noticeable with movement (flapping or hanging loosely against a body), which would come with increased Sleight DCs on an aware foe... and maybe lower AC as well.

Sleight of Hand only allows stealing loosely guarded items of size Small or less with a DC 20 check. Epic rules allow similarly loosely guarded items (weapons and shields) of size up to 1 larger than you with a DC 50 check. Armor would have the same item size as the being wearing it, which determines starting DC. DCs would increase by 2 every round unless the foe is completely unaware.

The best way to attempt to steal armor from someone would be using Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain (or similar), but it's on shaky ground. The ability has a weight limit of 5lbs, but you can argue that you're manipulating a strap instead of the armor itself. Still up to the DM there. And then there's the limit on uses per day being less than 5. This could be boosted with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster, but even then, will you reach 5? You get one use per 4 levels here, so you'd need... 7 more levels of class features. Eww. As a DM, I'd allow a feat for more uses of Ranged Legerdemain per day to make this possible if you told me it was what you wanted, but it wouldn't come online until ~15, just like Lightning Thief.

You'd be putting in a lot of resources to do something with a very low chance of success.
Spellbooks, spell component pouches, holy symbols, and magic items in belt pouches are much easier targets and affect combat much more quickly.

Your DM is not being mean; he's just following the rules of the game (3.5 in my explanation above). Some things are possible in the rules, and some aren't.

[Hunterx]

One you are incorrect the feat allows you to steal anything that is on the person unless it is in hand that is the wording of the feat there is 0 errata for the book so it hold true unles it is in your hands I can steal it period.

Now leaving the table no that is not an option as I hang out with my other friends at the table the DM just insists on making his own rules to suit him instead of going by RAW.

And since these rules are not written out for us all to see we have to see what is in his head.

D&d char are good at one thing mostly or they are good at nothing or everything and the DM crystal because I make char that are good at one thing well that is 3.. Plus he does not follow how skills are written at all diplomacy is a perfect example there is no counter diplomacy you either are this or your that there is nothing about counter diplomacy.so you see the DM makes his own rules keeps them in his head fluffs the game to help the char alon or gives themNPCs to help because he has put us up to fight something out of our fighting level. So he fluffs or NPCs or some dumb ass rule that a nat 1 gives double damage to the creature because he stepped int something.

Instead of just following RAW because everyone has the books and can look up what they are trying to do and not guess what is in his head.

[PunBlake]

One you are incorrect the feat allows you to steal anything that is on the person unless it is in hand that is the wording of the feat there is 0 errata for the book so it hold true unles it is in your hands I can steal it period.

Master Pickpocket does not remove the size limitation on objects you can steal. Size sets the DC of the check. You'd have to beat a DC 50 Sleight of Hand check in most circumstances to steal a medium or large armor. As a DM, I would say (as your DM apparently has as well) that Master Pickpocket also does not remove the loosely guarded limitation from the Rules Compendium; "anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand" is easily trumped by "The DM is free to limit what you can take in this manner" in the RC.

[Hunterx]

Master Pickpocket does not remove the size limitation on objects you can steal. Size sets the DC of the check. You'd have to beat a DC 50 Sleight of Hand check in most circumstances to steal a medium or large armor. As a DM, I would say (as your DM apparently has as well) that Master Pickpocket also does not remove the loosely guarded limitation from the Rules Compendium; "anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand" is easily trumped by "The DM is free to limit what you can take in this manner" in the RC.

Again this falls under RAW. Not DM RAW, not DM does not like it because it is not real. And yes I know what the DC is bad the build I had come up with passed that without a dice roll as hardened criminal allowed 10 on it so no roll needed.

Mongralfolk rogue 8 marshal 1 motivate dexterity. Ranks 12, skill focus 3, nimble figures 2 synergy 2 racial 4 aura 3 Dex 4 that is a 30 before magic items +10 which is 40 again before magic items and effects getting an extra 20 is not that hard. +2 just from a master work item for sleight of hand is now 42 with the 10. A simple + 20 competence bonus to sleight of hand give 62 which allows to steal as a free action by taking a -10 on the attemp so that brings you 50 to a 60 and with the 10 plus everything I put there already comes to 62 which means I can steal your underwear off your body while still leaving your pants on. As for what the feat stats. Now if the DM can not handle the fact that the players are smarter more intuitive then they are maybe they should just stop DM read the books again and learn to p,aye the game as it is written and stop making up their own dumb rules that no one knows about till someone try's something different.

[Hunterx]

Any ways since the rogue was taken off line and will not be any fun any more will try something different. I went cleric malconvoker. Just need to boost bluff a bit higher. Again no magic items as of yet.

But have 25 in bluff right now

[PunBlake]

Again this falls under RAW. [...]

Now if the DM can not handle the fact that the players are smarter more intuitive then they are maybe they should just stop DM read the books again and learn to p,aye the game as it is written and stop making up their own dumb rules that no one knows about till someone try's something different.

Re-read the Rules Compendium description of the Sleight of Hand skill before you talk too much about "as-written."

I'm glad you've found a table where your obstinacy is tolerated. I wish your DM the best of luck with you.

Reminder: These games are about cooperative storytelling. If you are unwilling to cooperate with your DM, who is the arbiter of your character's story, the game becomes less fun for everyone, including your friends at the table. I'm glad for their sakes that this took place before the game started. I can imagine you arguing with your DM at the table, the argument taking forever, and everyone getting up and leaving while you continue to argue.

Since you're talking about maxing bluff, you may want to talk to your DM about what he'll allow bluff to do before you get much further, and not just about malconvoking specifically. IIRC, Glibness can be accessed with a cleric domain for DMM: Persisting, so if you're thinking about that, tell them first.