How does ranged trip work in 3.5

[PvtBacon]

Same as title. To give some insight, I’m playing a 6 lvl fighter and just started taking the master thrower prestige class. one of the weapon tricks you can take is trip shot, which states you make a normal attack against an opponent and on a hit, on top of doing damage, you can make a trip attempt. My question is how do ranged trip attempts work in 3.5 if they can’t make a counter trip against a failed trip. It also sounds like even on a failed trip you do damage as normal? I couldn’t find anything about ranged trip attempts in 3.5 so anything is helpful

Thanks.

[liquidformat]

So ranged trip suffers from the same issue as ranged disarm, ranged pin, and ranged sunder, which is it isn't well defined nor implemented. In the case of ranged trip damage is resolved before making the trip attempt, that much is clear from the description of the ability. Also this ability is slightly better than ranged pin, disarm, sunder because you add +4 to your dex check. However, there is no way to improve this dex check beyond improving dex/ having items that increase dex checks, whereas the normal enhancement bonuses apply to the defender like size mods. Since it is impossible for them to try and trip you if the attempt fails treat it as if you dropped your weapon to deny them of their trip attempt.

I would talk to your dm and see if they would allow you to make this ability more useful. At the very least see if you can double (or trip depending on crit mod) the +4 bonus you get on a crit check. Also maybe see if you could take a follow up feat that allows you to apply your damage to the trip modifier or something.

[PvtBacon]

I currently have a 29 dex. My dm ruled for this campaign to use a d20 for stats and taking 8 and above (very generous). So that’s 20+2 (elf) +1 (AP lvl 4) +6 (dex gloves). So I’d be +13 to my trip attempt. I also have a greater returning throwing dagger. My dm allowed me to take a home brew fest that lets you add int to damage like swashbuckler. I also add my str like normal and I took the weapon trick to add dex to flatfooted enemies with a slight of hand check. So my min damage for a dagger at lvl 7 is 20 provided I hit flatfooted. My dm doesn’t even want to rule that you can use the ability since it makes normal trip experts underpowered in comparison.

[liquidformat]

I currently have a 29 dex. My dm ruled for this campaign to use a d20 for stats and taking 8 and above (very generous). So that’s 20+2 (elf) +1 (AP lvl 4) +6 (dex gloves). So I’d be +13 to my trip attempt. I also have a greater returning throwing dagger. My dm allowed me to take a home brew fest that lets you add int to damage like swashbuckler. I also add my str like normal and I took the weapon trick to add dex to flatfooted enemies with a slight of hand check. So my min damage for a dagger at lvl 7 is 20 provided I hit flatfooted. My dm doesn’t even want to rule that you can use the ability since it makes normal trip experts underpowered in comparison.

Just your gloves alone are breaking WBL much less your greater returning dagger that adds int to damage so the fact that you make normal trip experts look weak in comparison really isn't saying much. However, I am pretty sure a properly built tripper build is still on par with you. A Human barb 2/Fighter 4 with base 18 str raging, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and enlarge person has 27 str then we add in Exotic weapon (spiked chain), wolf berserker, Power Attack, improved trip, knock-down, and combat reflexes, and pounce. That gives me 20' reach (so same range as your dagger with far shot) +20 to trip, I can trip anyone I deal 10+ damage to, everyone entering 20' of me is subject to an AOO. with a super high Dex I am sure you are out doing the standard tripper on attack and maybe on damage per hit but the fact that you aren't able to take advantage of AOO means you will quickly be outperformed by the standard tripper.

[ericgrau]

So ranged trip suffers from the same issue as ranged disarm, ranged pin, and ranged sunder, which is it isn't well defined nor implemented. In the case of ranged trip damage is resolved before making the trip attempt, that much is clear from the description of the ability. Also this ability is slightly better than ranged pin, disarm, sunder because you add +4 to your dex check. However, there is no way to improve this dex check beyond improving dex/ having items that increase dex checks, whereas the normal enhancement bonuses apply to the defender like size mods. Since it is impossible for them to try and trip you if the attempt fails treat it as if you dropped your weapon to deny them of their trip attempt.

I would talk to your dm and see if they would allow you to make this ability more useful. At the very least see if you can double (or trip depending on crit mod) the +4 bonus you get on a crit check. Also maybe see if you could take a follow up feat that allows you to apply your damage to the trip modifier or something.

If it's that bad then get bolas instead. Then all the usual bonuses apply. There are penalties to hit (mainly the distance penalty), but it is a touch attack. So if your attack bonus is high enough you might even do this without proficiency.

The drawback to bolas is they don't do damage when used to trip IIRC. The advantage of ranged trip is that you get the damage AND the trip. So even if the trip does suck, it's not a big loss. It's a little free action bonus that may still work on some foes. So it could easily still be worth a feat, even if you only expect a minority of trips to be successful.

[Crake]

The ability literally says "Other modifiers may apply on this opposed check" meaning you get all the bonuses you normally would for a trip check, including size bonuses if you make yourself bigger. The only bonus that doesn't apply is the one from improved trip, which you essentially already get from the baked in +4 bonus. You can optimize this trip check the same way you'd optimize any other check.

If you have high int, I believe 3 levels in factotum allows you to apply your int modifier to strength and dex based checks, which includes all str/dex skill checks, inintiative checks, as well as opposed str/dex checks for maneuvers like tripping.

[liquidformat]

The ability literally says "Other modifiers may apply on this opposed check" meaning you get all the bonuses you normally would for a trip check, including size bonuses if you make yourself bigger. The only bonus that doesn't apply is the one from improved trip, which you essentially already get from the baked in +4 bonus. You can optimize this trip check the same way you'd optimize any other check.

If you have high int, I believe 3 levels in factotum allows you to apply your int modifier to strength and dex based checks, which includes all str/dex skill checks, inintiative checks, as well as opposed str/dex checks for maneuvers like tripping.

Hmm, I was reading that as the opponent's check, but ya that does seem to be saying your check, if that is true then it is much better.



If it's that bad then get bolas instead. Then all the usual bonuses apply. There are penalties to hit (mainly the distance penalty), but it is a touch attack. So if your attack bonus is high enough you might even do this without proficiency.

The drawback to bolas is they don't do damage when used to trip IIRC. The advantage of ranged trip is that you get the damage AND the trip. So even if the trip does suck, it's not a big loss. It's a little free action bonus that may still work on some foes. So it could easily still be worth a feat, even if you only expect a minority of trips to be successful.

if you are going to play around with exotic weapons anyways might as well go for Barbed Bolas from CW.

[ericgrau]

Oh, if this actually works why aren't there more ranged tripping builds instead of reach tripping? It seems like full attack hasted rapid shot trips even in round 1 is much better than melee. Including theoretically getting AoO trips, except in practice foes decide not to approach PCs with reach. Or foes fight prone or use range unless they're dumb. You could get pounce on a regular tripper, but even then there's no guarantee you'll be able to reach all the targets you want. Maybe it's a concern over damage, but I'd rather have less damage with BFC and tactical range advantage over straight damage.

I guess it is easier to get back up with ranged trip. That still limits the foe to a 5' step and no full attack. Plus allies can close in to a prone foe on their turn.

[liquidformat]

Oh, if this actually works why aren't there more ranged tripping builds instead of reach tripping? It seems like full attack hasted rapid shot trips even in round 1 is much better than melee. Including theoretically getting AoO trips, except in practice foes decide not to approach PCs with reach. Or foes fight prone or use range unless they're dumb. You could get pounce on a regular tripper, but even then there's no guarantee you'll be able to reach all the targets you want. Maybe it's a concern over damage, but I'd rather have less damage with BFC and tactical range advantage over straight damage.

I guess it is easier to get back up with ranged trip. That still limits the foe to a 5' step and no full attack. Plus allies can close in to a prone foe on their turn.

AOO are a big part of why reach tripper is still better, also the functionality between knock-down and improved trip. With both those feats if I deal 10+ damage to a foe I get to make a trip attempt against said foe and if that trip succeeds I get to attack again. Also there is the question/issue of what thrown weapon I should be using, daggers or shuriken optimize my number of attacks; however, their range leaves much to be desired. Whereas javelins have much better range but you need quick draw for them to function properly which is helped by master thrower. Over all ranged tripper takes more investment to get up and running.
Let's take the previous example for melee I have:
A Human barb 2/Fighter 4 with base 18 str raging, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and enlarge person has 27 str, Exotic weapon (spiked chain)[human bonus], wolf berserker [lvl1], pounce[barb1], improved trip [barb2], Power Attack[ftr1], knock-down[lvl3], and combat reflexes[ftr2], and two open feat slots. 20' reach +20 trip good solid damage, and take advantage of AOOs.

Then ranged trip:
Dagger: Human Fighter 5/master thrower 1 Point blank shot[bonus],precise shot[lvl1], two-weapon fighting[ftr1], weapon focus (dagger)[ftr2], far shot[lvl3], Weapon Finesse[ftr4], improved two weapon fighting[lvl6]. Still 20' range before taking penalties (do the penalties apply to trip attempt to? seems like they should), crap damage without things like above mentioned weapon adding int or getting source of precision damage, can't trip/ bfc until level 6 at earliest, weirdly mad since str is a dump stat but still a big help for damage.

Javelin: Human Fighter 5/master thrower 1 Point blank shot[bonus],precise shot[lvl1], two-weapon fighting[ftr1], weapon focus (dagger)[ftr2], Brutal Throw[lvl3], Power Attack[ftr4], Power Throw[lvl6]. 30' range, better damage output probably pickup the two-weapon fighting gloves and far shot weapons until you can take the feats, again not tripping until level 6 at earliest, both str and dex are important though dex not quite as much. Over all This build might actually be more powerful than a standard tripper, the fact that you can hit 60' trip range with a decent number of attacks is nice and adding a level dip of whirling frenzy barb is quite nice too.