Tortle players: have any of you actually used “Shell Defense”?

[TripleD]

The action to activate, lack of movement, and bonus action to deactivate, seems steep for what you actually get. It seems to suffer from the same problems as the “Dwarven Defender” prestige class back in 3.5: you sacrifice mobility to create an amazing defense, but any sane opponent will just move around you or choose to fire at someone else, leaving you feeling pretty useless.

This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone actually played a Tortle character? If so, did you ever use Shell Defense and feel it was useful?

[Erys]

The action to activate, lack of movement, and bonus action to deactivate, seems steep for what you actually get. It seems to suffer from the same problems as the “Dwarven Defender” prestige class back in 3.5: you sacrifice mobility to create an amazing defense, but any sane opponent will just move around you or choose to fire at someone else, leaving you feeling pretty useless.

This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone actually played a Tortle character? If so, did you ever use Shell Defense and feel it was useful?

I have never played nor ran a Tortle. Though I do like their flavor overall, their Shell Defense ability seems to be only useful when you are on deaths door and want to go full defense.

Overall its fairly useless, especially if you are the only target in range of whatever bad guys you are facing. But, I guess in theory, it could give you a precious round or two to get some healing and get back in the fight.

[TripleD]

But, I guess in theory, it could give you a precious round or two to get some healing and get back in the fight.

Only if someone else does the healing though. The description explicitly says you can’t take actions while in the shell.

[Zalabim]

It's like super dodge for ranged attacks, but since no one uses prone against ranged attacks, or dodge in general, I'm not surprised no one uses this specific feature that's a more specific combination of the two.

[Dr.Samurai]

My tortle currently uses Shell Defense to sleep. But our game just started and we haven’t seen combat yet.

[TripleD]

It's like super dodge for ranged attacks, but since no one uses prone against ranged attacks, or dodge in general, I'm not surprised no one uses this specific feature that's a more specific combination of the two.

I think Prones biggest problem is less it’s utility and more that people just forget it exists. It costs nothing (in terms of actions) and is pretty good for blasters, archers, and anyone that wants to stay out of action and doesn’t care about speed.

Dodge I’ve used once to great effect. I was guarding a choke point against several enemies and also had Sentinel (the rest of my party was rescuing some NPCs, so it was more about stopping them than defeating them).

Granted those are fairly niche case so (as you said) making Shell Defense even more niche effectively means no one will ever use it.

Toying with a home brew that makes it a reaction rather than an action. Not sure if there are some unintended effects though.

[Bugga]

I have not, but imagine it would be very useful for wizards to cast something with concentration, get in shell, and than hit with it. Or clerics with spiritual weapon.

[MrConsideration]

It would be very handy to drop a Spirit Guardians or Conjure Animals and then sit in your shell. In my games, casting important concentration spells often attracts a lot of focused fire to try and force you to fail a Concentration save.

[Damon_Tor]

The action to activate, lack of movement, and bonus action to deactivate, seems steep for what you actually get. It seems to suffer from the same problems as the “Dwarven Defender” prestige class back in 3.5: you sacrifice mobility to create an amazing defense, but any sane opponent will just move around you or choose to fire at someone else, leaving you feeling pretty useless.

This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone actually played a Tortle character? If so, did you ever use Shell Defense and feel it was useful?

Advantage on strength saves makes for weird synergy with grappling. The shell defense doesn't actually incapacitate you, which means going into your shell doesn't break your grapple. And the advantage you get on strength checks makes it more difficult to escape from the grapple (and will make you more resistant to most forced movement effects as well). Does it make sense? Well sure, if you consider the possibility that what's happening is that you're grabbing the other guy's leg and then dragging his leg into your shell with your arm. Then you're just attached to his leg like ball and chain.

Of course he's going to have advantage on his attacks against you unless you've also proned him as well, but that's generally a good idea when grappling anyway.

The advantage on con saves means this has utility when dealing with poison and disease as well. Which is... odd.

EDIT: You could use the grapple synergy in concert with the ability to hold your breath for an hour to drown people. Grapple them, drag them underwater, then go into your shell. All you have to do is wait. Now you're not a ball and chain, you're the concrete shoes from a mafia movie.

[Damon_Tor]

EDIT: You could use the grapple synergy in concert with the ability to hold your breath for an hour to drown people. Grapple them, drag them underwater, then go into your shell. All you have to do is wait. Now you're not a ball and chain, you're the concrete shoes from a mafia movie.

You could build around this concept, come to think of it. Mold Earth and Create Water (cast at 4th level) easily creates a 5sq foot drowning pool anywhere there's dirt, both making permanent effects without a need for concentration. Even better if you can get your hands on a Portable Hole, and just carry your drowning pool along with you. I'm reasonably certain (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/816440444162715648) that casters who don't breathe underwater can't cast spells with verbal components underwater and hold their breath at the same time, making it a kind of a poor man's silence.

[gloryblaze]

Shell Defense gives advantage on Strength saving throws. Grappling is resolved through Strength checks. Shell Defense confers no benefit to grappling.

[Damon_Tor]

Shell Defense gives advantage on Strength saving throws. Grappling is resolved through Strength checks.

Good point. There's still some marginal benefit just because Strength saves are the most typical save for forced movement effects, which can also be used to end a grapple.

[RemnantVoid]

For all its benefits, it still ends up being less useful than just Dodging.

[TripleD]

The advantage on con saves means this has utility when dealing with poison and disease as well. Which is... odd.


Agreed. I finally finished my rework of Shell Defense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569852-Shell-Defense-Rework&p=23389002#post23389002), and one of the changes I made was to remove the STR and CON advantage and instead grant success on DEX throws for 1/2 damage. Mimicking “Shield Master” feels appropriate for a giant turtle.

[Montinje]

The action to activate, lack of movement, and bonus action to deactivate, seems steep for what you actually get. It seems to suffer from the same problems as the “Dwarven Defender” prestige class back in 3.5: you sacrifice mobility to create an amazing defense, but any sane opponent will just move around you or choose to fire at someone else, leaving you feeling pretty useless.

This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone actually played a Tortle character? If so, did you ever use Shell Defense and feel it was useful?

I have used it in a few places. I use it when my character is sleeping which actually saved my Tortle from the damage of a sneak attack once. The deficits are the same as a regular sleeping character and this seems like the intended use. I have also used it in combination with the spell "healing spirit" to recover during a firefight with a group of archers across a ravine. Finally, I have used it to maintain concentration on spells where it really matters that concentration is maintained such as summon animals/elementals/fey or AOE spells like malestrom.
I have not used it for this but it is ideal especially for storm of vengeance where every single turn concentration is maintained the damage and effects increase.

[elyktsorb]

Yes actually. There was a specific instance where there was a hall and ranged attackers were shooting down it. My Tortle (a barbarian monk) who had a 18 in AC due to Unarmored Defense, simply laid down at one end. Boosting my AC to 22, and becoming prone, meaning all their ranged attacks had disadvantage. Being a Barbarian meant I could just tank any damage they would manage to hit me with, and they were forced to move into melee while my allies peppered them with ranged attacks, as they hid to the sides of the hall.

It also confers advantage on Strength and Constitution saving throws while you're in the Shell Defense, I've always wondered about the validity of running a Tortle Spellcaster, casting a concentration spell, and then entering the Shell Defense, which will give you advantage on concentration checks.

[Temperjoke]

It also confers advantage on Strength and Constitution saving throws while you're in the Shell Defense, I've always wondered about the validity of running a Tortle Spellcaster, casting a concentration spell, and then entering the Shell Defense, which will give you advantage on concentration checks.

Yeah, see this is one way I've considered it to be an advantage, you're concentrating on buffs for your allies that are a key to your team's strategy, so maintaining that concentration is vital. That being said, I dunno that I would plan a class build around that feature only, it doesn't seem very flexible.

[Zachopotamus]

I use it on my Spore Druid build, fairly often. My Tortle Monk has only used it as an RP thing as my DM allowed me to basically be a boat for my party to cross a river, so technically not actually using the feature.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I saw a few of them in play, the only use I see for Shell Defense is to block small entrance.

Like a trow an AOE that tick every turn into the room and stuck a turtle in the doorway.

In higher levels you have stuff like wall of force but I can see it working for low levels.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Shell defe se does not protect from Necromancy.