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Millstone85
2018-09-24, 05:42 AM
I have commented a few times on the three types of deities I see in fantasy.

Now, I think those would be most interesting when combined.

Divine power would come in three parts:
* Persona - This is the faith people have in a deity as a human-like figure, addressing them by name in their rituals and prayers. It might bring a deity into existence to begin with, or allow a mortal's ascent to godhood.
* Philosophy - This is the faith people have in an ideal. By becoming known as the "god(dess) of [insert concept here]", a deity can attune themself to this power. The deity might then be its master, servant, or avatar.
* Principle - This is one of the fundamental essences the universe is built on. If a philosophy is both accurate and powerful enough, it can become attuned to a cosmic principle, and in turn link a deity with true divinity.

Thoughts?

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-24, 12:34 PM
To me, it doesn't seem to cover all the bases. Deities of nature, order/chaos, elements and so on aren't covered, nor are Great Old One types. 'Small Gods' also aren't covered. Ascended mortals.

I'm pretty sure I can come up with enough exceptions to make the principle dubious at best. What are you looking for with it?

Millstone85
2018-09-24, 03:11 PM
Deities of nature, order/chaos, elements and so on aren't coveredI disagree. Nature, order, chaos, the elements, and so on, can be mystical forces guiding the setting, and can also have philosophies about them.


nor are Great Old One types. 'Small Gods' also aren't covered.GOO don't need to be divine, just powerful alien entities. Or they could be gods from an alien world. And what do you mean by "small gods"? Like in Discworld? Well, they would only have a persona, and a weak one at that.


Ascended mortals. I mentioned those.


What are you looking for with it?Just brainstorming.

Edit: Let's say it would make for a setting where gods run both on the power of faith and on cosmic forces, without the cosmos itself being defined by faith.

Psyren
2018-09-24, 04:02 PM
GOO don't need to be divine, just powerful alien entities.

I think that's the part you need to define (i.e. "divine"), because some games/settings (e.g. D&D/Pathfinder) treat them as both. GOO are powerful aliens and can ultimately be killed, but they're also divine in the sense that they can have clerics and grant domains/spells. Ditto things like demon lords or archdevils.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-24, 04:17 PM
OP -- as others have hinted at, there are significant undefined terms / unaddressed questions in your three-part breakdown.

These will also be setting-specific answers, not universal.

What is "divine"?

What if anything separates a "deity" from other "extraplanar" entities? From spirits? From "eldritch alien intelligences"?

Can other entities of any sort grant blessings, curses, spells, etc to their followers in the way a "deity" can, or influence things like weather or the fertility of the herds or the course of war in the way a "deity" can?

Millstone85
2018-09-24, 04:29 PM
I think that's the part you need to define (i.e. "divine")
What is "divine"?Oh come on, my whole opening post was a definition of divine power. It comes in three forms: collective faith in a person, collective faith in an ideal, actual cosmic force. I also described how a single god would acquire them all in order.

Yes, there can be other definitions. For instance, a setting could treat any sufficiently advanced wizardry as indistinguishable from divinity. But would you find that more or less interesting than my model here?


some games/settings (e.g. D&D/Pathfinder) treat them as both. GOO are powerful aliens and can ultimately be killed, but they're also divine in the sense that they can have clerics and grant domains/spells. Ditto things like demon lords or archdevils.It is more that being an archdevil, archfey, demon lord, GOO, primordial, or what have you, does not preclude ascending to godhood, nor do you cease being one of these things afterward.

Ravens_cry
2018-09-24, 04:39 PM
I had an idea I use in a free-form RP meta-verse, that gods form from legend and myth, from unified belief. As the mythos changes, so do the gods. This can even work retroactively, so that humans evolved from an ape-like common ancestor AND were sculpted from clay by a Titan or carved from an Ash and Elm (perhaps Vine).
People do not become gods. People can not become gods. Their legend can, the myths surrounding them. So you might have a god who is based on and named after someone, but they are not the same person. Gods are also limited, despite their immense power within their domains. A virgin goddess can not become otherwise, for example, unless her legend changes.

Psyren
2018-09-24, 08:24 PM
Oh come on, my whole opening post was a definition of divine power. It comes in three forms: collective faith in a person, collective faith in an ideal, actual cosmic force. I also described how a single god would acquire them all in order.

Yes, there can be other definitions. For instance, a setting could treat any sufficiently advanced wizardry as indistinguishable from divinity. But would you find that more or less interesting than my model here?

And GOO/archthing aren't any of those yet are considered divine in other settings. That's why we're asking for a bit more.

In D&D for example, "divine" is defined less by what it is and more by what it can do. Specifically, anything that can grant spells is considered divine. That keeps the definition broad enough that they aren't pigeonholed. And since you ask, yes I do consider that more interesting than your categories (since it allows for more examples) and thus enables more concepts like a GOO cult or the lone champion of a forgotten archfey etc.


It is more that being an archdevil, archfey, demon lord, GOO, primordial, or what have you, does not preclude ascending to godhood, nor do you cease being one of these things afterward.

This is a slight shift of the goalposts here. Are we talking about "divine" or "godhood?" Because those are definitely different things.

NichG
2018-09-24, 09:20 PM
I tend to associate divine entities in my settings with something that might be called 'undue authority'. That is to say, there is some aspect of reality that tends to change to reflect how they think it should be/how they want it to be, rather than simply operating as it is.

As a consequence, divine entities tend to be load-bearing, such that if they were to cease to be, the things they've influenced will snap back to some unknown primordial state. If you kill Death, maybe everyone gets to be immortal, but maybe all that happens is that the concept of afterlife and soul are ended - and without knowing how Death changed the primordial state, you won't know which will happen.

All the stuff about faith, granting spells, etc are just examples of specific preconceptions being pressed into the fabric of reality by that authority - none are strictly essential components of an example of a divine entity.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-24, 10:38 PM
And GOO/archthing aren't any of those yet are considered divine in other settings. That's why we're asking for a bit more.

In D&D for example, "divine" is defined less by what it is and more by what it can do. Specifically, anything that can grant spells is considered divine. That keeps the definition broad enough that they aren't pigeonholed. And since you ask, yes I do consider that more interesting than your categories (since it allows for more examples) and thus enables more concepts like a GOO cult or the lone champion of a forgotten archfey etc.



This is a slight shift of the goalposts here. Are we talking about "divine" or "godhood?" Because those are definitely different things.


An example from a setting I'm working on.

The original "gods" were beings from before the universe, from before time and space, alien primal forces with little understanding of mortal life, who had no hand in the act of creation. The creator had been one of their own but had died in the act of creation. Most of them wanted, sometimes without realizing it, to undo creation itself, to unshackle themselves from the finite nature of the universe and return to "before". And the only one "sane" enough to understand, the only ne who wasn't an existential threat (intentional or not), was also the one considered the most evil by many mortals. They could grant power, but it always came with risk.

The current "gods" who overthrew them were once mortals who came to understand the true nature and potential threat of the "old gods", and sought apotheosis, defeated and imprisoned the "old gods", rewrote the legends and myths... and then pulled the ladder up behind them so that, they hope, no one else could do what they had done. They can grant power, with less risk for the mortal, but nearly not as much, and it depends to somewhat on a back-and-forth, give-and-take between them and the mortals.

Depending on who you ask, both, one, the other, or neither of those "pantheons" are divine, or deities.

GunDragon
2018-09-24, 11:01 PM
In my setting there are no gods in the traditional sense. There are Aeons, which are the most powerful race of beings in the universe. Many mortals worship them as if they were gods, but the Aeons know they are not gods. They can be killed (in fact, one of them already has) and their power is finite. Also they cannot reproduce with each other, so there are a finite number of them. However, some of them can impregnate mortals and have strange offspring, but most of them are not really interested in doing that, since they are beyond having sexual instincts.
Aeons do not grant spells to mortals like in D&D. The mortals can cry out to them for help, and if the Aeon hears them and decides to do something about it, the Aeon may intervene with their power.

Each Aeon may have their schtick, but generally each one has their own personality, history, and goals beyond just, "I am the god of fire. Hear me and obey." Blah blah blah

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-25, 12:40 AM
I disagree. Nature, order, chaos, the elements, and so on, can be mystical forces guiding the setting, and can also have philosophies about them.

Canhave ... sure. But that's true of anything, a tablespoon can have a philosophy about it (there is no spoon). But elemental worship isn't about philosophy, it's about understanding - and hoping to tame or avert - what you fear. The storm and the sea, lightning, volcanoes! Also, of course, what you need and love - sun, harvest, rain, and so on. I'll freely admit that, over time at least, elemental worship becomes personified.

Anyways the point is that ... your tripart foundation doesn't really work. People worship lots of things that are neither persons, philosophies or principles. Forces, or emotions, or ... I'm positive I could come up with more. And then you could figure out an argument why 'cosmic love' is either a philosophy or a principle, but ... if lots of people see lots of holes in your theorem, maybe it simply isn't as solid as you think?

Does divine power arise from all principles and philosophies? Can I worship materialism or atheism?

Millstone85
2018-09-25, 02:22 AM
In D&D for example, "divine" is defined less by what it is and more by what it can do. Specifically, anything that can grant spells is considered divine. That keeps the definition broad enough that they aren't pigeonholed. And since you ask, yes I do consider that more interesting than your categoriesIt is a bit more complicated than that, at least in 5e. Warlocks receive their magic from a patron, yet are considered arcane spellcasters. But that's a thread of its own.

Anyway, alright, my approach doesn't have your preference. But I have decided to define divinity by what it is rather than by what it can do, and I am not going to change that until it becomes the same as D&D or whatnot.


This is a slight shift of the goalposts here. Are we talking about "divine" or "godhood?" Because those are definitely different things.In D&D, some things are considered divine but not gods. Archdevils etc. aren't among them. On the other hand, gods are divine, and archdevils etc. can become gods.


But elemental worship isn't about philosophy, it's about understanding - and hoping to tame or avert - what you fear.That would be the philosophy.


I'll freely admit that, over time at least, elemental worship becomes personified.In my model, some people would worship a god of volcanoes, while others would develop a philosophy about volcanoes. Over time, the god of volcanoes would attune to the philosophy, driving power from both types of faith.


if lots of people see lots of holes in your theorem, maybe it simply isn't as solid as you think?I get that it isn't popular. But the critiques so far have been rather odd.

If I could restart the thread, I would limit myself to the persona and the philosophy. Fantasy gods that are entirely faith-powered are easier to discuss.


Does divine power arise from all principles and philosophies? Can I worship materialism or atheism?There would be divine power arising from atheism. Not an easy philosophy for a god to attune to, however.

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-25, 05:17 AM
But the critiques so far have been rather odd.

Either that, or you're not trying very hard to understand them. It's very hard to have any sort of meaningful exchange with someone who only tries to counter what feedback you provide.

Millstone85
2018-09-25, 05:34 AM
Either that, or you're not trying very hard to understand them. It's very hard to have any sort of meaningful exchange with someone who only tries to counter what feedback you provide.It could be, but I doubt it. It is also difficult to have any meaningful exchange with someone whose feedback comes out of left field.

My opening post was about a definition of the divine that I thought could make for an interesting setting. The first comments I get ask me to define "divine". Like, what? :smallconfused:

I am also told it doesn't work that way in several settings. Well... Obviously? :smallconfused:

But yeah, I am alone on that boat and it doesn't sail. Nevermind then.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-25, 06:55 AM
OK, to be frank, your opening post didn't define "divine", it listed off three categories of "deities" or three types of faith, and gets a bit into the power associated. It mentions divine power, but doesn't really say that that means.

Millstone85
2018-09-25, 08:14 AM
OK, to be frank, your opening post didn't define "divine", it listed off three categories of "deities" or three types of faith, and gets a bit into the power associated. It mentions divine power, but doesn't really say that that means.Divine power is the power of these three types of faith.

Or well, two types of faith and one cosmic keystone.

How did you not get that? How is...

Divine power comes in three forms:
* Power of faith A.
* Power of faith B.
* Cosmic essence.

... not clear enough?

Yup, I have lost my temper. Congratulations, I guess? Then again, I am still adapting to my new medication.

Bye.

Knaight
2018-09-25, 08:58 AM
It could be, but I doubt it. It is also difficult to have any meaningful exchange with someone whose feedback comes out of left field.


It's not out of left field, but I'm pretty sure there's a major disconnect, and that I have some idea of what it is.

Essentially, people are reading this as a classification system for existing (fictional) divinities and religious traditions. As a classification system it has glaring holes, some of which eventually come down to what gets defined as a god as opposed to a spirit or other more minor entity. I'm getting the sense that a classification system for existing material isn't what you were going for here. Instead this is some high level structure for making setting specific gods, presented as an interesting model for people to use as a starting point in god making.

These approaches are pretty close to directly opposed, so misunderstanding is effectively inevitable.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-25, 09:04 AM
Divine power is the power of these three types of faith.

Or well, two types of faith and one cosmic keystone.

How did you not get that? How is...

Divine power comes in three forms:
* Power of faith A.
* Power of faith B.
* Cosmic essence.

... not clear enough?

Yup, I have lost my temper. Congratulations, I guess? Then again, I am still adapting to my new medication.

Bye.


"Ice cream comes in three flavors -- vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry."

"Cool, what's ice cream?"

"I just defined ice cream right there!"

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-25, 09:41 AM
Yup, I have lost my temper. Congratulations, I guess?

We're not trying to be hostile. I think. I'm not =)

Look, you posted an idea on the internet, and people don't agree with you. This is, frankly, par for the course.

Your initial statement is that 'divine power comes in three parts'. And those parts are 'persona, philosophy, principle'.

You're trying to take all of religion, and squeeze it into a rather narrow definition. And none of us really feel that it fits. If you don't want to discuss that, then ... what sort of response is it you're looking for?

Millstone85
2018-09-25, 10:22 AM
We're not trying to be hostile. I think. I'm not =)Thanks. :smallsmile:

See below.


I'm getting the sense that a classification system for existing material isn't what you were going for here. Instead this is some high level structure for making setting specific gods, presented as an interesting model for people to use as a starting point in god making.That's exactly it, and I see my fault in the confusion. Either I shouldn't have started the thread with a mention of previous discussions on fantasy gods, or I should have elaborated.

In some settings, divine magic is any magic granted by a superior being. In others, it is any magic gathered through collective faith. In others yet, it has to do with the creation or perpetuation of the universe. And so on, there have been of course many other takes on fantasy divinity, to say nothing of real life.

I have been thinking about how a setting could portray the gods as being simultaneously these big imaginary friends made real and bona fide movers of the cosmos. D&D does that somewhat, but often ends up depicting the gods as being actually very small fishes. So this was my attempt at imagining such a setting. Not in great details, like how there is a planet with X continents, blah blah blah. Just the part about how gods work.

I also lacked a driving question for my thread, beyond "What do you think?".

Anyway, it is too late to fix this, and I am done.

Xuc Xac
2018-09-25, 04:15 PM
"Ice cream comes in three flavors -- vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry."

"Cool, what's ice cream?"

"I just defined ice cream right there!"

Chocolate cake and hot cocoa have chocolate flavor, so are they a kind of ice cream too?

GunDragon
2018-09-25, 06:48 PM
Thanks. :smallsmile:

See below.

That's exactly it, and I see my fault in the confusion. Either I shouldn't have started the thread with a mention of previous discussions on fantasy gods, or I should have elaborated.

In some settings, divine magic is any magic granted by a superior being. In others, it is any magic gathered through collective faith. In others yet, it has to do with the creation or perpetuation of the universe. And so on, there have been of course many other takes on fantasy divinity, to say nothing of real life.

I have been thinking about how a setting could portray the gods as being simultaneously these big imaginary friends made real and bona fide movers of the cosmos. D&D does that somewhat, but often ends up depicting the gods as being actually very small fishes. So this was my attempt at imagining such a setting. Not in great details, like how there is a planet with X continents, blah blah blah. Just the part about how gods work.

I also lacked a driving question for my thread, beyond "What do you think?".

Anyway, it is too late to fix this, and I am done.

I'm sorry they ruined your idea