Question about Gods and Fiends

[redjinx]

With the newer comics focusing on the Gods and the Snarl, we’ve found out a lot about the theology of the OotS world. However, I’ve also run into a confusing self-conflict. Two, actually.

First of all, the issue of gods. We know that there are three sets of gods, plus the Dark One (which is a major revelation.) However, Tiamat is mentioned repeatedly as a god or god-like figure. Which pantheon does she belong to?

Second, the fiends. Their proclaimed end goal when they meet V. seems to imply that they have no knowledge of the disposable nature of the world. However, they also seem to not be mortals, and since they appear to oppose the Gods and also to be entirely capable of doing so without being smited (smote?) it is unclear why the gods would have even created them. So question two is: are the fiends creations of the gods or not?

[Linneris]

In the real world, Tiamat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat) was part of Babylonian mythology, so in OOTS, she's presumably part of the Western Pantheon.

As for the fiends, they're not creations of the gods. The gods create worlds on the Material Plane, while fiends are outsiders (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Outsider_Type) (a D&D term for creatures native to planes other the Material Plane). Another example of outsider in OOTS is Celia, a sylph who comes from the Elemental Plane of Air.

[hamishspence]

In the real world, Tiamat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat) was part of Babylonian mythology, so in OOTS, she's presumably part of the Western Pantheon.

She's shown next to Marduk in Crayons of Time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

However, her speech bubble "down the phone" is yellow-background:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

the same as Thor and Odin.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

In the same Thor and Odin strip, the Southern deity (Tiger) has blue-background.

I vaguely recall her speech bubbles being red-background in Start of Darkness crayon strips though. I think intent is that she's Southern, Western and that the phone call bubble is not her normal color.

[SlashDash]

seems to imply that they have no knowledge of the disposable nature of the world.

I'm not sure this conclusion is justified. We don't know what their real plan is. It was hinted that they are making an extremely powerful move based on their promise to Tiamat where good dragons will be slaughtered and them saying that it's technically going to happen anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are planning to expedite the world destruction because they have something Hel-style up their sleeves, i.e gain advantage in the next world.

(Hence why all good dragons would die anyway)

But of course, there is no way that's all that there is to their plan since the author doesn't rehash stuff.
So there's more to it.



However, they also seem to not be mortals, and since they appear to oppose the Gods and also to be entirely capable of doing so without being smited (smote?)

It's Smote :)



it is unclear why the gods would have even created them. So question two is: are the fiends creations of the gods or not?
Well, you might also ask why did the gods create the goblins if eventually it lead to one of them being a god and setting on a path that could end all creation.

Maybe they had their reasons and things went out of hand.

[hroþila]

(I usually see the past participle as "smitten", the etymologically correct form, but I've also seen it as "smit" "smited" and "smote")

The archfiends also said that it was technically true that their plan was about bringing down the gods of Good. To me, that suggests they want to bring down all the gods. One way to do it would be co-opting the Dark One's ritual somehow, or perhaps they intend to release the Snarl at a time when all the gods are in the same spot (during the controlled demolition, perhaps? The problem with this plan is that the readers aren't likely to see it come dangerously close to succeed).

[hamishspence]

"Smitten" tends to be used more for "fallen in love": "I am smitten with them".

For the "hit very hard" version, I think the normal forms are

"I am going to smite them"
"I am smiting them"
"I smote them" or "I smited them"

[Quebbster]

I think intent is that she's Southern, and that the phone call bubble is not her normal color.
You meant Western, not Southern, right?

Anyway, there's also the discussion Malack and Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) has about why Malack worships Nergal rather than Tiamat. It's not outright stated, but it's a strong indication that Tiamat is part of the Western Pantheon.

[Roland Itiative]

Supposedly, all of the planes aside from the Prime Material are not remade with each world (or at least the afterlife planes are kept safe), so it's very likely that the fiends are in fact older than the current world. However, didn't the IFCC learn about the Gates and the Snarl through Sabine (who in turn got the info from Nale, who was present during the Crayons of Time exposition)? This implies they shouldn't be older than the world. Maybe they were just created by the gods as challenges to high level players, same as the humanoids were created as XP fodder for the low level ones. In this case, they wouldn't be mortals, but they'd be lumped in the same-ish category.

[hroþila]

"Smitten" tends to be used more for "fallen in love": "I am smitten with them".

For the "hit very hard" version, I think the normal forms are

"I am going to smite them"
"I am smiting them"
"I smote them" or "I smited them"
But "smote" and "smited" there are not past participles, but preterites. Would you use the same forms for "I have s- them" and "They were s- by me" in the literal sense?

Even Merriam-Webster's (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/smite-smote-smitten-smoted-smut-smit) article on the issue isn't too good because the only example of the past participle it gives reflects the metaphorical sense of "smitten with something good/bad", but it seems to imply "smitten" would be the standard past participle for other senses too.

[hamishspence]

You meant Western, not Southern, right?

Yes. Fixed.

[KorvinStarmast]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html
Not sure if this is significant, but in the crayon pictures, there are not yellow, nor green, strands of thread. Only red, blue, and purple. Probably not significant, I suspect that the lore/depth has matured over time within Rich's creative mind.

[hamishspence]

Not sure if this is significant, but in the crayon pictures, there are not yellow, nor green, strands of thread. Only red, blue, and purple.

Same is true of the Laurin scene (plenty of shades, but only of blue and pink):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

[Fyraltari]

My headcannon is that the IFCC Directors were "born" after the creation of the current world and have never seen the Snarl. However their older coworkers probably have.

[The Pilgrim]

My belief is that the IFCC department is probably younger than the current world (the directors themselves said it was a recent initiative), but the Directors themselves may or may not be older than the world.

If the Directors (and other extraplanars) are older than the world, then my rationalization is that while they know that the Gods get creating and destroying worlds, they don't know the specifics about the Snarl, beyond noticing that the Gods seem to use some kind of cosmic horror to destroy their creations and begin a new cycle. Why the Gods do that was probably beyond their knowledge, the fiends assumed the Gods get bored with their creations and re-rolled periodically to keep the fun going.

The fact that the Snarl is the reason why Creation keeps being destroyed again and again, because it is beyond control of the Gods, and capable of destroying the Gods themselves, might be fresh news to the Directors (and every other extraplanar). As would be fresh news to them that the Gates have the potential to yeld some control over the monster. After all, the Gods themselves don't go around sharing that information with anyone.

[Gift Jeraff]

It is worth noting that Sabine is over 2000 years old going by bonus strip #252A. I'm inclined to believe that she and the Directors are older than the current world and didn't learn about the Snarl via Nale. Rather, the reason Sabine had to report to them was either about the Gates specifically or their agents need to have a mortal employer involved with the Rifts in order to be allowed to interfere.

As for who creates fiends or any of the other exemplary outsiders, I assume they are born as part of the Outer Planes' natural processes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is worth noting that Sabine is over 2000 years old going by bonus strip #252A. I'm inclined to believe that she and the Directors are older than the current world

Based on Thor's statement about current progress on world duration ("a few thousands years each"), if Sabine is "just" 2000+ years old, it sounds to me she was created with the world, or after it, on the basis that "a few" is somewhere between 2 and 4, and someone over 3000 years old wouldn't be described as over 2000 unless intending to deliberately obfuscate the truth.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Based on Thor's statement about current progress on world duration ("a few thousands years each"), if Sabine is "just" 2000+ years old, it sounds to me she was created with the world, or after it, on the basis that "a few" is somewhere between 2 and 4, and someone over 3000 years old wouldn't be described as over 2000 unless intending to deliberately obfuscate the truth.

Shojo does describe the current world as having existed for "a thousand years and more"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

rather then "a few thousand years" or "more than two thousand years".

[woweedd]

Shojo does describe the current world as having existed for "a thousand years and more"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

rather then "a few thousand years" or "more than two thousand years".
Granted, we now know that his exposition there wasn't entirely accurate, but...

[Fyraltari]

Shojo does describe the current world as having existed for "a thousand years and more"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

rather then "a few thousand years" or "more than two thousand years".

I am inclined to take Thor's words over Shojo's. Shojo has personally witnessed around 80 of this world's years while Thor was there for all of them.

[hamishspence]

I am inclined to take Thor's words over Shojo's.

"A few thousand years each, give or take" is pretty vague.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"A few thousand years each, give or take" is pretty vague.

So is "a thousand years and more". And Thor is in a position to know, Shojo is not, and "a few" can't be less than 2000.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

True. But a "thousand years and more" is as well.

[hamishspence]

"a few" can't be less than 2000.

The "give or take" bit allows it to be though.

[Cinevei]

An admittedly weak indication that the directors did not know about the snarl initially is a broken off comment by Sabine in #903: "...even if you don't know what the game is going to be. When they first sent us to Tarquin's-" could imply they were planning more mundane evil until Sabine relayed Shojo's crayontale.

[B. Dandelion]

Sabine seemed pretty surprised by the Snarl story in 380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html).

[Synesthesy]

Logic says that extra planar entities are not connected to this world, or the gods would be making the entire multiverse, not only the "world". I image that there exists a lot of planes full of outsiders that will never be showed in the story, but still exists.

But if you were the Gods, and there were a god-killing being trapped inside the world, would you tell everyone the exact details? Maybe IFCC did know about the Snarl as a generic horror, ignoring his true nature. In 380 surely Sabine did give them some kind of information.

Or maybe the demons (some demons, at least) are trying to release the Snarl from the beginning, and sometimes they succeeded and the Snarl destroyed the world, sometimes they failed and the Gods saved everyone's soul (destroying the world). And this is the first time the IFCC exists: the first time that all demonic races work together. Another way to say that this world is unique.

[Gift Jeraff]

Sabine seemed pretty surprised by the Snarl story in 380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html).

Her shock seems more directed at the fact that it's the OOTS who is tasked with saving the world.

[RedSand]

My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?" Basically everyone has to have a god or two in a DnD style world-they're more or less your healthcare provider, plus you know empirically that the afterlife exists. In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around? Do they still have alignment systems? How does the collection of faith work? We assumed the original world was just like our current OotS world but if they change the genre every couple millenia do they also change with it?

[Fyraltari]

My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?"
Why not?


Basically everyone has to have a god or two in a DnD style world-they're more or less your healthcare provider, plus you know empirically that the afterlife exists. In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around? Do they still have alignment systems? How does the collection of faith work? We assumed the original world was just like our current OotS world but if they change the genre every couple millenia do they also change with it?
Aren't there DnD cyberpunk settings, like Shadowrun?

[woweedd]

My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?" Basically everyone has to have a god or two in a DnD style world-they're more or less your healthcare provider, plus you know empirically that the afterlife exists. In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around? Do they still have alignment systems? How does the collection of faith work? We assumed the original world was just like our current OotS world but if they change the genre every couple millenia do they also change with it?
I see no reason they couldn't shift towards WOD-style "deities battle in the streets of grimy cities while we all pretend to sleep" stuff.

[The Pilgrim]

My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?" Basically everyone has to have a god or two in a DnD style world-they're more or less your healthcare provider, plus you know empirically that the afterlife exists. In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around? Do they still have alignment systems? How does the collection of faith work? We assumed the original world was just like our current OotS world but if they change the genre every couple millenia do they also change with it?

Shadowrun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun) had orcs, dwaves, elves... all the fantasy stuff, even Dragons.

RIFTS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifts_(role-playing_game)) got it all mixed together with specific books covering a wide variety of pantheons (http://rifts.wikia.com/wiki/Pantheons_of_the_Megaverse).

[Synesthesy]

My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?" Basically everyone has to have a god or two in a DnD style world-they're more or less your healthcare provider, plus you know empirically that the afterlife exists. In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around? Do they still have alignment systems? How does the collection of faith work? We assumed the original world was just like our current OotS world but if they change the genre every couple millenia do they also change with it?

My understanding is that the setting change, but the ruleset stick. And the rules work both for mortals and gods.
Also, what is in mortals world is rebooted every few thousands years, while everything is outside that plane should be original.

In my opinion, the first statement cannot be false, and if the second is false... well, Thor will have a lot more to explain.


For setting problem, there is a lot of fantasy sub-genres that allows magic and/or supernatural beings in every time. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl, Disonhored, almost every super heroes comic .... there are a lot of example.

[Mike Havran]

Second, the fiends. Their proclaimed end goal when they meet V. seems to imply that they have no knowledge of the disposable nature of the world. However, they also seem to not be mortals, and since they appear to oppose the Gods and also to be entirely capable of doing so without being smited (smote?) it is unclear why the gods would have even created them. So question two is: are the fiends creations of the gods or not?I think they were not created in this world and knew about the Snarl; the true news were the gates.

[Bad Wolf]

I mean, look at it this way.


Are the gods going to slaughter every single outsider in dozens of infinite planes everytime they remake the world?

[Devils_Advocate]

I think it fits the Archfiends' M.O. not to let on how much they already know about any "stunning revelations".


She's shown next to Marduk in Crayons of Time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html
On the same page, Shojo refers to "Marduk, Tiamat, and the gods of the West".

I think it's safe to call that yellow speech rectangle a minor art inconsistency.


Shojo does describe the current world as having existed for "a thousand years and more" rather then "a few thousand years" or "more than two thousand years".
That could be because Shojo doesn't know how old the world is, only that it must go back as far as its history that he's aware of.


My question in regard to all this is "if you have a gritty cyberpunk world, do you also have a bunch of pagan gods lying around?"
If so, they probably assume different roles, based on how their natures intersect with the setting. For example, Thor favors lightning and crafting, so he would have dominion over all manner of electronic technology, I assume.

What I wonder is whether having a nigh-omnipresent portfolio leads to more or to less worship. You'd think that aquatic deities would be pretty big deals in UNDERWATER WORLD, but then again, maybe not? "Luck", for example, encompasses basically everything that happens to everyone, but not everyone worships gods of luck. It seems that most people want something more specific. It's probably more difficult to get the attention of a someone whose interest is spread over so much stuff.


In a more modern setting, do the gods even bother keeping demons and angels around?
Well, they could make the world more difficult for outsiders to get into, and/or make magic less common.


My understanding is that the setting change, but the ruleset stick.
Depends on what you mean by "ruleset". The different worlds probably use different character classes, for example, as those are pretty genre-specific. Obviously different items, too.

[Fyraltari]

"Luck", for example, encompasses basically everything that happens to everyone, but not everyone worships gods of luck.

That's because she keeps setting her temples on fire and stuff.

[DaggerPen]

I had been wondering this as well! My best guess is that, whether or not the various outsiders knew anything about the Snarl, they probably have no idea it's a danger to the gods themselves.

[mjasghar]

They can’t remake the other planes every time for a few reasons
- they put the monuments to dead worlds in the astral. So if you’re suggesting they also remake the monuments...
- they would also have to remake their home planes including the devas etc
- remake the elemental planes etc
That’s a lot of outsiders made for no reason since it’s worship on the prime that matters, and also killing off petitoners who feed them
And that’s assuming there’s no gods outside the pantheons
Now we can assume that might well be the case as they aren’t mentioned but in that case why have alignment planes and not just have divine realms and make it so everyone is judged as worshippers

[Kish]

Aren't there DnD cyberpunk settings, like Shadowrun?
Shadowrun is the name of a game, not a D&D campaign world.

Beyond that, RedSand appears to be assuming that the most generic D&D world mold is the only possible one and that no other world would have pantheons of gods. Dark Sun has no gods. Eberron and Ravenloft have religions but specifically bar their people from any certainty that the gods they worship actually exist. All the gods in OotS have been worshiped in the real world.

[hamishspence]

Shadowrun is the name of a game, not a D&D campaign world.

Urban Arcana, while not using D&D rules, but D20 Modern rules, comes close, being a "modern world" full of D&D monsters.

[Paleomancer]

One other consideration is that the Blood War is apparently a thing in OOTS-universe, so it’s entirely possible that between the endless conflict taking up everyone’s time and the real risk of Klingon Fiendish promotion and coup d’etats, those who might know more about the Snarl either end up merging back into the infernal fundament or be too busy trying to do bestow that fate unto other fiends. The atypical and apparently genuine comaraderie of the IFCC might explain why now, rather than before, there are fiends able to exploit the situation.

It also seems as though the planes are somewhat self-maintaining, so long as mortals join with it. So new fiends probably sprout up automatically (like daisies!) regardless of what the Gods actually want.

[Riftwolf]

Supposedly, all of the planes aside from the Prime Material are not remade with each world (or at least the afterlife planes are kept safe), so it's very likely that the fiends are in fact older than the current world. However, didn't the IFCC learn about the Gates and the Snarl through Sabine (who in turn got the info from Nale, who was present during the Crayons of Time exposition)? This implies they shouldn't be older than the world. Maybe they were just created by the gods as challenges to high level players, same as the humanoids were created as XP fodder for the low level ones. In this case, they wouldn't be mortals, but they'd be lumped in the same-ish category.

Knowledge about the rifts and the gates are two different things. The IFCC could know about rifts if they're older than this world (naturally occurring planar apertures that have destroyed countless worlds), but have little or no knowledge of the gates (artificially created patches over these apertures), and so have no knowledge of their locations, which is what they learnt from Sabine.

[Elanasaurus]

All the gods in OotS have been worshiped in the real world.Pretty sure nobody worshipped the twelve signs of the zodiac.

Nor the Dark One, or Banjo or Giggles.
:elan:

[Paleomancer]

Pretty sure nobody worshipped the twelve signs of the zodiac.

Nor the Dark One, or Banjo or Giggles.
:elan:

Actually, that’s an interesting observation. The Greek, Nordic, and Mesopotamian pantheons are all composed of distinct deities with recognizable, if flexible, domains of influence and thus translate well to D&D-type settings. Plus I don’t think there are too many communities that worship said pantheons now. But most well-known Asian religions don’t have quite the same concept of divinity, and most of said faiths are still going strong. The Zodiac seems to be a nice compromise that fulfills the story and doesn’t cause too many... unwanted side-effects.

Banjo/Giggles... heh. People are never going to let those go :smallamused:

[Devils_Advocate]

Incidentally, Tiamat looks rather serpentine at first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), doesn't she? Whereas the scene with the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) implies that she at least has wings now that she apparently didn't initially. Maybe Tiamat started with snake monsters before introducing hydras and eventually chromatic dragons, her own form changing in accordance with her developing understanding of the ideal monster, or something like that?


That's because she keeps setting her temples on fire and stuff.
That's a reason not to worship a particular luck goddess, but I'm exploring the question "Why not worship Tymora or Beshaba?", not "Why not worship Beshaba?". Answering the latter doesn't answer the former, just reduces it to "Why not worship Tymora?"


why have alignment planes and not just have divine realms
There are a lot of Dungeons & Dragons knock-offs out there, and just branding one of the many descendants of the original game as "the new edition of D&D" doesn't count for all that much. Out-competing the alternatives at appealing to the target market requires the inclusion of a lot of specific things established as parts of D&D.

That was the main problem with 4th Edition. It may have been all right on its own merits, and even pretty good at being D&D, but it was sufficiently different that it was worse at being D&D than plenty of other games. Widen the scope enough, and Shadowrun is cyberpunk D&D in the same broad sense in which Linux is open-source Unix. Exploiting the D&D niche means rounding up the usual sacred cows, because your target audience by definition is the people who like those cows. Herding those cows is the core of your job, to which all else is ancillary.

So, for 5E, they mostly brought back the Planescape cosmology, doing away with both the 4E model and the setting-specific cosmologies introduced in 3E, whose new planes of existence were never fleshed out in detail anyway so far as I'm aware.

(What do you mean "ignoring the context of this discussion"?)

[Fyraltari]

That's a reason not to worship a particular luck goddess, but I'm exploring the question "Why not worship Tymora or Beshaba?", not "Why not worship Beshaba?". Answering the latter doesn't answer the former, just reduces it to "Why not worship Tymora?"

That was tongue-in-cheek.