Supplemental field control for a conquest paladin,

[Spiritchaser]

I’m currently watching two conquest paladins (one is mine) and I’m impressed by the field control. I’ve never played with the optional flanking rules before and I have to say that with those rules in place, the value of a conquest paladin is impressive

Except when it isn’t

Has anyone gone sorcerer or warlock (not bard, I’m just not going to fit that in with my concept) after 9 to help?

Sleet storm, stinking cloud etc. Could help fill that gap where fear won’t do.

[Corran]

Well, I am currently writing a post (at a very slow pace though) about a conquest/divine soul sorcadin. I think I have found a few good synergies. Without going into a lot of details (as I am secondguessing some things and I want to be sure about everything before I post it), I can say that much:

1) Sanctuary is one of the best, if not the best selling point of this multiclass. It complements fantastically well your fear tactics (and your web tactics, that act as a backup to your fear tactics). Think about it.

2) Web (more than stinking cloud and hypnotic pattern, and that's for a lot of reasons which I will not analyze here), is an ideal backup tactics to fear. These backup tactics have the same amazing synergy with the sanctuary spell. If DM does not allow careful to shine with web, you back it up with freedom of movement (idealy used on the one with the strongest OA's in the party).

3) Your use of concentration is pretty well covered under almost every situation you can expect to counter (fear, wrathful smite, web, bless, hold person as an oath spell, and reverse gravity when you hit level 20), so it makes sense investing in some very useful non-concentration spells, that otherwise wouldn't find the room in a non-conquest ds sorcadin's build. Freedom of movement, death ward and counterspell.

4) Shield and absorb elements are a must (though sanctuary has the potenetial to be better value for money than the shield spell; seriously, if you have locked down enemies, then using sanctuary can be devastating; aside how it can be useful for protecting allies, you have the option to squeeze a great deal of tanking value out of it; it also protects your concentration and protects you against shoving, which smart non-affected enemies will try to do -ie shoving- if you catch enough of their allies with your fear spell).

5) We need one good healing spell that profits from the 6th level feature of ds. I think mass cure wounds is the clear winner here.

6) Web plays well with non-fire blasting spells. Vitriolic sphere has the best synergy here. I would involve one more blast spell, but not sure which one. Tempted a bit by shatter (which has some synergy with the fear spell, but I think it's more impressive than powerful).

7) Silence might have some potential, though I am still thinking about it.

8) I was thinking of sleet storm as well. It has nice synergy with conquering presence. Yet I value using my concentration with fear a lot more than using it with sleet strorm, despite the synergy it has with conquering presense, so I decided against picking it. I am searching to see if there is any non-concentration AoE spell that knocks people prone.

9) Simalarly to why I skipped sleet storm, I decided to skip spirit guardians (ie, it has some nice synergy with conquering presence, but I think it's much more profitable to use concentration with spell that allow hard battlefield control; and I already have good backup uses of concentration when I am not aiming at that). Perhaps this and the previous point have a lot to do with that I view conquering presence more like a good backup option, rather than the centerpiece of my tactics.

Metamagic: Quicken, careful, and thinking about extend as my third, due to having access to some very good non-concentration buffs that would profit from an increased duration (subtle would pose some competition if I ended up including silence in my spell list, also due to counterspell)

Edit:


Has anyone gone sorcerer or warlock (not bard, I’m just not going to fit that in with my concept) after 9 to help?

If you are going all the way up to 9th level and don't plan on a sorcerer dip for the careful metamagic, you definitely need to take one more level in paladin for aura of courage (to protect allies caught in your fear ''blast''). If going sorcerer, you can probably stop at 7 levels in paladin (you lose 3rd level paladin spells, you lose the defensive value of aura of courage -offensively, ie when casting fear, careful more than makes up for it, and you also delay getting access to the fear spell). Point is, you need to invest in a way of making casting fear party friendly (and so far, aura of courage and the careful metamagic are the only ways I see; depending on how your DM rules on the interaction of aura of courage and the fear spell, regarding your allies, I would be more or less inclined to mc in sorcerer for careful; still, there are definitely some positives in mc'ing into sorcerer, even if there is the best of synergy between aura of courage and the fear spell, but I would be very weary of delaing my access to party-friendly fear if my campaign didn't start at about level 12).

[Spiritchaser]

Thanks for this. Divine soul is most definitely an option conceptually. Any dark and hungy god would do... though a great old one warlock tossing out tentacles would be awesome as well.

Web is definitely on the menu, being str/Dex, I hadn’t thought of sanctuary.

My first thought is that as a wis save it makes you stronger against things you are already strong against. You’ve imposed disadvantage on their to hit, now they must save as well... that’s... nice, and it’ll help with single target spells too... but with so few Spell slots my first instinct was to try and add some save variety

That said, I’ll definitely think about that some more, and I haven’t added up slots. Perhaps there’s room for both.

I guess where I’m coming from is that against foes that your tools work on, they already work shockingly well. Locked in place, disadvantage to attack, with flanking rules against fixed targets, very probably advantage for the party to attack them...

But while a conquest paladin has lots of tools to fight things they can’t fear, they don’t have great options to control them (some single target CC from smites notwithstanding).

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, I look forward to reading your post, it sounds like it’ll be directly helpful!

[Corran]

First of all, apologies, as I ended up typing the stuff I had in my head, rather than addressing your question (from my initial answer, only point 2 is directly relevant to what you are asking). I still want to say some things about sanctuary, but I will do it at the end of this post and I will put it in a spoiler since it is a bit out of topic. Now, let me give a proper answer to what you are asking.

I will mention spells mainly from the sorcerer's spell list, cause that is the list I am most familiar with (not very familiar with warlocks, I know they get evard's as far as control spells go, and that's about it. And I never used evard's or even seen it being used, you get my point). So...

1) Web was already mentioned. I will elaborate a bit It targets dex saves, but don't expect enemies with high strength to remain webbed for long. There is a ''but'' coming, but before that let me address something else. The restrained condition is very powerful. Among other (more meaningful things) it imoses disadvantage on dex saves. Now, this plays fantastically well with highly damaging spells that target a dex save (eg disintegrate, lighning bolt, etc). You also have the option to throw a fire spell (since at first glance a low-dex high-str enemy would break free sooner or later), and this would deal some extra damage (2d4 if I remember correctly) at the cost of burning down your web. This is small fish though. The best way to profit from web, is to make it stick for longer. Fortunately, a conquest paladin has a way to do this. Through inflicting fear and more specifically, through conquering presence (as it is the only thing you have that inflicts fear and does not use concentration which is already taken by web; you can use both at round 1 via quickening web and this is important). Of course, you need for the enemy to fail both a wisdom and a dex saving throw, so the odds of succedding against a specific enemy are not that high. Yet, such tactics are always best used against mobs. Enemy numbers is what makes this effective. But that holds true for all field control tactics. Now, there are a lot of things that can be said about careful web, but this depends on how your DM rules that it works (ie only on the first save, or on every save). In case the DM follows JC's ruling/sage advice (not sure what it is supposed to be), then you can back this up with freedom of movement. You cast it on the PC that has the best combination of AC and damage on an OA, and you send him in (extra points if he can uses his action with BB against enemies inside the web area. That PC is probably you (ie the sorcadin), assuming an AC of 21, BB and warcaster. This way, you make enemies that free themselves from the restrained condition to think twice about exiting the web's area, and if they do, you punish them for it.

2) Then there are stinking cloud and hypnotic pattern. Now, if I was making any other non-conquest sorcadin that wanted to exact good battlefield control, I would take both these spells (along with web). And I would also ditch fear (which although it is a good spell, it does not play well with a sorcadin's or an ally's blasting abilities, since it scatters the enemy; though I would take it if I had allies with very powerful OA's). The reason I would take all three of them (ie web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern) is first and foremost because they target a different save, as you so rightly mention. To copy paste part of an old post of mine (where I was deliberating an ancients sorcadin aiming for a good set of battlefield control spells): ''we went with the careful spell metamagic and the spells web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. Each of the first three targets a different save, so this is enough reason to get all 3 of them (remember, you rely exclusively on your concentration spells for serious battlefield control, so you should have as many different options as possible). Even stinking cloud, which at first glance seems to be the worst of these 3 spells, can be extremelly useful under the right circumstances (high dex&wis opponents, or high dex opponents with immunity/advantage against being charmed, or high wis opponents who can use fire and burn burn down our web, etc)'' (more or animate objects later).
But with a conquest paladin, I would really not bother. At least with stinking cloud and hypnotic pattern. Why? Con saves are hard to hit in general, but even if it is easier for me to target a con save than a wis save for a given enemy, I would still target the wisdom save with my fear spell. Cause I can squeeze a lot more value out of it. Ie, I think it's a risk worth taking (the risk of targeting a stronger save of the enemy). With hypnotic pattern I wouldn't bother, ot only because it targets the same save with fear (and conquering presence), but also because I think that charm and fear resistances/immunities go hand in hand in most cases. Wanting to expand on your field control tactics is a great idea, and I think web serves you well in that respect. Yet after some point, you hurt are probably hurting your build more than helping it, by overspecializing in a certain area at the expense of overall efficiency. When this starts happening is hard to define, IMO it is not worth it for a conquest sorcadin to grab stinking cloud and especially hypnotic pattern. But as I said, this is entirely my opinion, and I have little other than my gut feeling to back it up.

3) Battlefield control can be achived by bringing more bodies into the battlefield (it's not as a severe control as what you can do with web or fear + aura of conquest, but minions take up spaces in the battlemat and moreover they come along with OA's -plus the additional damage and damage prevention both from killing enemies faster and from enemies targeting some of them; but this last is to compensate for the softness of the control the summons offer). So, anything that summons things can be in that category. My ancients sorcadin I mentioned above, used animate objects in that respect. Though many spells work in this respect (conjure animals, animate dead, etc). Lots of such spells. Extra points if the summons can grapple.

4) Anything that decreases enemy speed can be form of control (spells like slow, spirit guardians, spike growth, erupting earth, even as something as simple as a ray of frost). Some of them do it better than others, but never forget the cost of concentration. Ie, there is a lot of optimization to be done in restricting your concentration spells to the absolutely necessary (especially for classes with limited picks, like a sorcerer). I guess the hold spells could technically be in that list, but with them we are mostly in debuffing territory. Of course, the alternatively holds true. That is, if your group is very mobile, you are doing the same thing from the opposite side (or rather, proactively than reactively, since you don't have to figure out the best use of control for any given situation and respond with it).

5) Anything that forces movement is also a form of control. From something as lowly as a thunderous smite or a repelling EB to something as impressive as... alright, I got nothing. I am starting to think this is not the kind of advice you were seeking. Edit: Got it! Reverse gravity (though with a conquest mc you are probably looking at a level 20 character level to get that:smallsigh: But if you get there... it's waiting for you like a good capstone would.

6) A final separate mention to the wall spells. I don't like them, and that is because I cannot find a self sufficient way of making them useful (I know wall of fire is good if an ally can repeatedly inflict some fitting forced movement). This is with the exception of wall of force. Simply amazing (I envy wizards for getting that spell...).

7) Just remembered. Otiluke's resilient sphere. Do either sorcerers or warlocks get it. And can it still be used offensively? Also, I think there is a spell called forcecage, and from the sound of it, it must be good at controlling enemies. Man, I should really check wizard's spells more often. AFB...

8) I almost forgot. Illusions can help you exact some serious battlefield control. Depending on how creative you are with them and on what you DM lets you get away with. I am not very creative, so the only such spell I have used was phantasmal force. I used it under two DM's. One of them allowed me to use it a single-target version of evard's (targeting INT of course), the other let me use it as a single-target web. I think both DM's might have been generous, as from what I have heared in this forum, a 2nd level spell targeting INT that restrains (even if it is only against a soingle target) is a bit too poweful. But there are other spells, like hallucinatory terrain, etc (yeah, illusions are not my forte).


Some general advice that you didn't ask for. Also, this is oversimplifying things a bit, but it will allow me to speed this up. So... instead of thinking ''how can I best expand my field control potential'', think ''how can I expand my field control potential while also at the same time optimizing other aspects of my character, or alternatively, without hindering the overall effectiveness of my character''. You could grab every control spell there is on the sorcerer or warlock spell list, and you still wouldn't be as good of a controller as a wizard can be. But you have other strengths, so try not to neglect good synergies that can be found when multiclassing and that have nothing to do with field control, even if the main reason for multiclassing was to expand your field control tactics. As I said earlier, restrict your picks (especially the concentration ones) to the absolutely necessary, so that you have room for spells (or features) that improve your character in other ways too. How you do that? By thinking of your character's tactics (and here comes the oversimplifying part). As a conquest paly, you should think like this:
1) What do I use against a mob? Fear. Alternatively (if say they have superb wisdom saves), web, backed up by conquering presence (and FoM if necessary)
2) What do I use against a single powerful opponent (even if it comes with mobs)? Wrathful smite.
3) What if I am fighting fear immune mobs? Web or bless, depending on the enemy. (but how many such encounters will there be?)
4) What am I using against a single powerful enemy with either fear immunity or legendary resistances )or magic resistance; though wrathful smite might tempt me taking the risk with magical resistance, if the enemy is such that would be crippled enough)? Well, usually, against such enemies, only two things work well, IME. Buffing and direct damage (nova). So, in such cases, you open with a quickened bless or with spiritual hammer (depending on if the enemy's AC and on if it has a strong recharging attack, eg dragon's breath), and you take the attack action burning slots to smite so that you can bring it down quickly.

This is oversimplifying things, as not all encounters can be summarized by these 4 categories (even for a conquest paly who for whom it makes so much sense on using fear against anything non fear immune). Sometimes you might need to use protection from evil, other times a spell like circle of power, banishment or aura of life might be the most appropriate. But the training dummies simulation can at least give you a good idea of what is an absolute must and what is a luxury. Always while looking for synergies and being wary of overlapping and opportunity cost.

ps: I didn't talk about sanctuary. Maybe tomorrow I will edit here a spoiler.