Disguise kit and deception?

[MThurston]

So after reading the use of a disguise kit, it allows you to use your int bonus.

Why would you not use Dex instead or deception skill?

[stoutstien]

So after reading the use if a disguise kit, it allows you to use your int bonus.

Why would you not use Dex instead of deception skill?

If I'm reading you correctly the question is why is the disguise kit a int based check vs deception (Cha).

My understanding is that you have to have an eye for details in making a plausible disguise so mechanically the best way to do that is using intelligence. Now a player pulling off a disguise interacting with NPCs will definitely be a deception vs insight check.

Think of it is the costume designer versus the actor. Just because I can throw together a believable Victorian era dress doesn't mean I'm getting on stage.

[MThurston]

You can be the smartest person in the room but that doesn't make you an artist.

Having the hand to place things is a Dex thing.

The character I want to use this with has a 10 int. Useless with a disguise kit. Performance of 6 and Deception of 6.

[JackPhoenix]

You can be the smartest person in the room but that doesn't make you an artist.

Having the hand to place things is a Dex thing.

The character I want to use this with has a 10 int. Useless with a disguise kit. Performance of 6 and Deception of 6.

You can be the most dexterous person in the room, but that doesn't give you the knowledge required to make believable disguise.

[stoutstien]

If your the dm you can make it a Dex check as easy as, well asking them to making a Dex check. Proficiency alone will add +2 to +6 alone which even with a flat 10 int.
Dnd isn't perfect with skill. Following the same thought why is someone who is good with their hands such as a watch repair man automatically good at walking across a tight rope? The skills are set up to be flexible. At my table I disallow a player asking to preform a skill. They can't say, "I attempt to deceive the king I have a +8 to the check." They decribe what they are doing and what they are trying to achieve and if applicable ask to add a skill.
This allows a player to stop thinking in terms of picking a option like a video game and make decisions based of their avatar interacting with the world.
Barbarian want to use his massive stature to intimidate instead of words? Go for it!
Wizard fast talking with an immense vocabulary to confuse and deceive a trader? Congrats, the merchant is blind sided and slips up his math resulting in a discount.(and an angry guild once they go back and figure out the math.)
Sorry for wall

[MThurston]

You can be the most dexterous person in the room, but that doesn't give you the knowledge required to make believable disguise.

Ah they old circular argurment. Should you roll int when lifting a stone? Or would it be wisdom for using a lever?

I believe int or dex or performance could be used.

After reading the tools rules it says that you get to use your prof bonus when making an ability check with tools.

So if I want to pick a lock and I have thieves tools does that mean I use my Dex plus Prof?

Why not just Sleight of hand with a bonus for having tools?

Weird.

[Erys]

I suspect it is Intelligence based for two reasons.

One, your mental stats, Int and Wis, both reflect your characters attention to detail.
Two, Arcane tricksters are Int casters. (Hence, Int instead of Wis)

The small details of your disguise can make or break you. You put the fake mole on the wrong spot and your ruse is foiled.

[MThurston]

I suspect it is Intelligence based for two reasons.

One, your mental stats, Int and Wis, both reflect your characters attention to detail.
Two, Arcane tricksters are Int casters. (Hence, Int instead of Wis)

The small details of your disguise can make or break you. You put the fake mole on the wrong spot and your ruse is foiled.

But you need manual dexterity to put on makeup and place that mole. If I am a juggler, why is my performance tied to cha?

[Erys]

So if I want to pick a lock and I have thieves tools does that mean I use my Dex plus Prof?

Why not just Sleight of hand with a bonus for having tools?

Weird.

Correct, with the right Kit you get to add your prof bonus to something that would normally just be an Ability Check.

And it isn't all that weird.

Thieves tools are actual tools for the job, you get hook picks, bail picks, stretched snakes, etc. So you get to add your proficiency for having the right tools, as oppose to using a bobby pin.

Sleight of hand has nothing to do with picking locks. It revolves around 'hand is quicker than the eye' events where you want to steal something without the other person noticing; not knowing how a locking mechanism works and how to thwart it.

[JackPhoenix]

But you need manual dexterity to put on makeup and place that mole. If I am a juggler, why is my performance tied to cha?

Depends... what are you trying to do with that performance? You try to impress people? That's Cha, and you'll get to add your proficiency, if you're proficient in Performance. Your actual ability to juggle matters less than your showmanship. Are you just trying to do the technique right? That's Dex, and you may again add your proficiency with Sleight of Hand or anything relevant to juggling, but that doesn't mean people are impressed or even pay any attention to you.

You aren't doing skill or tool check... you're doing ability check, depending on what are you trying to accomplish, and you may add your proficiency, if it's relevant to the task in question.

[Millstone85]

So after reading the use of a disguise kit, it allows you to use your int bonus.

Why would you not use Dex instead or deception skill?No, it allows you to add your proficiency bonus.

Whether that is going to be an Intelligence check or a Dexterity check is up to the DM.

Now, if you are proficient in both the disguise kit and the deception skill, that is indeed going to be redundant, as you can't add your proficiency bonus twice.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything offers the option to do a check with advantage, whenever it involves both a tool and a skill the character is proficient in.

[Erys]

But you need manual dexterity to put on makeup and place that mole. If I am a juggler, why is my performance tied to cha?

Do you really need a lot of manual dexterity to stick something to your face? I can get completely hammered and still be able to put a sticker on my face.

Performance is a broad skill, if you perform with juggling that means you are trained in the craft. Through years of practice your hands have muscle memory of where they need to be to juggle. Now, if you are a low dex character it probably took you longer to get that skill than if you are a high dex one. But the end result, which is assumed since you have the skill at the start of the game, is you know how to do the basic task... your skill is tied to Charisma to simulate your stage presence.

How well you can engage your crowd and, how well the crowd receives you.

[Erys]

No, it allows you to add your proficiency bonus.

Whether that is going to be an Intelligence check or a Dexterity check is up to the DM.

Now, if you are proficient in both the disguise kit and the deception skill, that is indeed going to be redundant, as you can't add your proficiency bonus twice.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything offers the option to do a check with advantage, whenever it involves both a tool and a skill the character is proficient in.

LOL, that is what I get for not double checking the skill and taking the question at face value. /blush

But yeah, the rest of what I said in the post above is apt.

[Harleytrypp]

But you need manual dexterity to put on makeup and place that mole. If I am a juggler, why is my performance tied to cha?

I was in theater long enough to know anyone with a base, or even low dexterity can put on make up..... I have seen complete klutzes apply flawless make up. It's the old D&D "Take 10" mechanic, with enough time, and without consequence of failure, you succeed in applying make up. That said, there is a HUGE difference between applying make up and creating a disguise. Exactly how close to the nose IS that mole. Does the chancellors laugh lines turn up, or down. How narrow is the sheriffs nose... There are all questions of Intelligence rather than Dexterity.

As a DM, if a player kept making this argument, I would allow them to make the Dex check before making the Int check. But normally I would allow that they took their time and applied it without requiring the Dex check.

[Lunali]

But you need manual dexterity to put on makeup and place that mole. If I am a juggler, why is my performance tied to cha?

Knowing exactly what to do for the makeup and where to place the mole is far more important to the success than the dexterity to execute. Being good at juggling doesn't always make you entertaining, a good performer can entertain a crowd with juggling even if they're terrible at it.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a lot of confusion in this thread, which is fair because Skills are kinda horribly written.

But here's the gist of it:

Tools and Skills are separate!

A lot of people make this misconception that skills are the inherent intent behind most checks, but that's not the case. Pretty much every one of your "checks" is actually a generic ability check with a single kind of relevant proficiency riding on that.

It's not a Stealth check. It's a Dexterity check, with Stealth. It's not a Artisan's Tools check, it's a Dexterity check, with Artisan's Tools.

The reason this is important is that Ability Checks are not permanently glued to every single skill. The ability scores associated with each skill is what's considered the "normal" relevant ability, but this is not a forced thing. There are examples of a Constitution (Athletics) check in the books, for when endurance is more important than raw power.

This issue is important because there can only be one relevant "proficiency" to the ability check. For example, even if you're proficient in Drums and Performance, there's not much mention on how to do a Charisma (Performance/Drums) check. Xanathar's actually recommends providing advantage for these situations for when proficiencies from both a skill and a relevant tool are plausible.

In the OP's situation, he's frustrated that Disguise kit is not a Dexterity check, but that's not a hard-set thing.

Note this:

A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item [...] For example, the DM might ask you to make a Dexterity check to carve a fine detail with your woodcarver’s tools, or a Strength check to make something out of particularly hard wood.

If your DM says that you can't use Intelligence for your Medicine/Insight/Thieves' Tools proficiency, just refer him to that quote.

Based on the writing in Xanathar's, if multiple proficiencies are relevant (such as Performance and Deception and Disguise Kits) then I'd say that Advantage was a just solution. I would probably say that Deception was used more for determining WHAT to say, and Performance would be HOW to say it. Guessing a generic reason for an Ambassador to be wandering where he shouldn't would probably rely on Deception, but acting panicked for getting into trouble, while using the proper accent, would definitely fall under Performance.

An easier way of looking at it is by gauging your experience with that skill. What would your experience with Deception tell you? Probably that generic, easy lies are easier to back up than personalized refutable ones. What does your experience with Performance tell you? Probably that being over the top and being overdramatic is enough for people to not pay attention to the finer details, and that heavy accents are hard to understand and sift through.

[Lunali]

If your DM says that you can't use Intelligence for your Medicine/Insight/Thieves' Tools proficiency, just refer him to that quote.

Based on the writing in Xanathar's, if multiple proficiencies are relevant (such as Performance and Deception and Disguise Kits) then I'd say that Advantage was a just solution. I would probably say that Deception was used more for determining WHAT to say, and Performance would be HOW to say it. Guessing a generic reason for an Ambassador to be wandering where he shouldn't would probably rely on Deception, but acting panicked for getting into trouble, while using the proper accent, would definitely fall under Performance.

An easier way of looking at it is by gauging your experience with that skill. What would your experience with Deception tell you? Probably that generic, easy lies are easier to back up than personalized refutable ones. What does your experience with Performance tell you? Probably that being over the top and being overdramatic is enough for people to not pay attention to the finer details, and that heavy accents are hard to understand and sift through.[/FONT][/SIZE]

I agree with your general sentiment, but disagree with your specific example. Deception is about how good you are at misleading people, performance is about how good you are at entertaining people. With the exception of acting in a play or the like, there's very little crossover.

[Man_Over_Game]

I agree with your general sentiment, but disagree with your specific example. Deception is about how good you are at misleading people, performance is about how good you are at entertaining people. With the exception of acting in a play or the like, there's very little crossover.

The performance skill is mentioned as being relevant with acting as someone else in the PHB and Xanathar's, but you are right in that it probably isn't the primary focus for disguising yourself.

[Teaguethebean]

Do remember a disguise kit can be used on somebody else so how would your suave and quick wit for the deception skill come into making your friend look like the mayor

[Erys]

Do remember a disguise kit can be used on somebody else so how would your suave and quick wit for the deception skill come into making your friend look like the mayor

You're deception skill wouldn't be at play, but depending the applicators roll on the disguise it may transfer advantage to the guy who is doing the impersonation.

But YMMV, completely in DM territory.

[MThurston]

I find it funny that people are supporting int for make up. Like it's common knowledge.

Disguise isn't just trying to look like Lord A. It's to look old or young, a cripple and the opposite sex.

Int, Dex and Wis would all be factors.

Cha would hold more weight with deception and performance in its wheel house.

Nature, history and Arcana are knowledge skills and far from that wheel house.

But I will end up getting just the prof bonus for using the kit. Better than nothing.

[Harleytrypp]

I find it funny that people are supporting int for make up. Like it's common knowledge.

Disguise isn't just trying to look like Lord A. It's to look old or young, a cripple and the opposite sex.

Int, Dex and Wis would all be factors.

Cha would hold more weight with deception and performance in its wheel house.

Nature, history and Arcana are knowledge skills and far from that wheel house.

But I will end up getting just the prof bonus for using the kit. Better than nothing.

Don't get "Make up" and "Disguise" twisted.... Even without the specific challenge of "look like Lord A" it takes a discerning eye to convincingly craft the image of an elder, or a youth, or a cripple or the opposite sex. Keep in mind, Disguise can be applied to someone else, not just yourself, so the Charisma of the person creating the disguise does not come into play. As I said in my previous response, Dexterity "could" be a factor in applying the "Make up" but not the "Disguise".... Intelligence tells you that you can't just toss a couple of cantaloupes in the front of a mans shirt and call him a woman.... (silly example), but even still, a higher intelligence will recall that (at least human) men have an Adams apple, and women don't, so a man will have to hide the front of their throat or the disguise will be "a little off".

Once the disguise is in place, the disguised person may still need to make a deception check, if they become involve in a social encounter, with the quality of the disguise helping lower the DC.

[MThurston]

Don't get "Make up" and "Disguise" twisted.... Even without the specific challenge of "look like Lord A" it takes a discerning eye to convincingly craft the image of an elder, or a youth, or a cripple or the opposite sex. Keep in mind, Disguise can be applied to someone else, not just yourself, so the Charisma of the person creating the disguise does not come into play. As I said in my previous response, Dexterity "could" be a factor in applying the "Make up" but not the "Disguise".... Intelligence tells you that you can't just toss a couple of cantaloupes in the front of a mans shirt and call him a woman.... (silly example), but even still, a higher intelligence will recall that (at least human) men have an Adams apple, and women don't, so a man will have to hide the front of their throat or the disguise will be "a little off".

Once the disguise is in place, the disguised person may still need to make a deception check, if they become involve in a social encounter, with the quality of the disguise helping lower the DC.

You are not going to win me over on this.

Dex is tied to works of art. Hand and eye coordination with the knowledge of the medium you are working with.

Int to know where to hit the marble but the Dex to remove the right amount of material.

It's why I believe either stat could be used.

[Erys]

You are not going to win me over on this.

Dex is tied to works of art. Hand and eye coordination with the knowledge of the medium you are working with.

Int to know where to hit the marble but the Dex to remove the right amount of material.

It's why I believe either stat could be used.

To be fair, probably every kit in the game can be ascribed to more than one stat. Often Dex and some mental stat.

Artisan's tools- need Dex to paint or whittle, need Int or Wis to have the vision of what you aim to create.
Forgery Kit- Dex to mimic the kings handwriting, Int or Wis to notice the intricacies of the kings Seal.
Gaming set- Int or Wis to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, dex to roll dice, cha for your bluff, heck even con to make it the whole night if the game goes on too long.
...Ect, ect.

If you want to be as through as possible, have the PC make multiple rolls using all the different stats. Otherwise, use what seems appropriate. If its a general disguise to look like a random guard, go with Dex (and use deception), if you are trying to pass as a specific person use Int (and possibly Dex, then roll Performance).

[Man_Over_Game]

Xanathar's is a bit more explicit on this.

It recommends using a SINGLE attribute score, and if multiple proficiencies are relevant, simply add advantage.

So, for example, Charisma(Disguise Kit/Deception) would be simply Charisma + Proficiency + Advantage, if you were proficient in both the Disguise Kit and Deception and had access to your Disguise Kit.

Let's not forget that Insight (the understanding of people) is a Wisdom check, and that Deception (aptly deceiving people) is a Charisma check. I think the confusion in this thread comes from what attributes to use rather than what proficiencies to use. Just remember that:


Wisdom is for self control, and general awareness from your physical senses
Intelligence is for remembering and actively learning
Charisma is to convince others to see your vision
Dexterity is for precise muscle control and physical power through muscle coordination


I think a good question on the whole Dexterity (Disguise Kit) is, is hand-eye coordination more important than understanding when it comes to the application of makeup/disguises?

I'm not exactly practiced in using makeup, but I'd probably say it's not. It plays a small part, but sometimes subtle dabs on the cheeks will have a better effect than a clown's worth of makeup with a delicate hand, and that's not Dexterity that generally determines that.

It probably takes a lot of precision to use the gnomish Tinker trait to learn/create new devices. That doesn't mean that my DM is going to make me roll a Dexterity(Tinker's Tools) check for it. The Intelligence needed is more important.