OWoD Clan Lore Assistance

[SirAshley]

Hello playground!

A friend of mine I about to start a VtM table top game, and I've ben invited to play. From what I understand, we will be playing as a Sabbat pack. I am interested in playing a Ventrue antitribu, but so far I've been coming up short on finding much information on them from published sources, such as mindsets, history, and the like. Some internet sources talk about how they are essentially crusaders and warriors for the Sabbat, but that is quite generic. I'm looking for something more in-depth, if it exists?

[JeenLeen]

I don't know anything really about modern Ventrue Antitribu, but I can give a bit of a history lesson that might help. (This is my understanding of the canon. I can't guarantee I got it all right, nor can I guarantee that conflicting canons don't exist between all the splatbooks.)

Before there was a Sabbat and Camarilla, the Ventrue were one of the High Clans and basically were the dominant vampire in part of Europe. They were mostly crusaders and warrior-king types. But that attitude had a strict hierarchy, and since vamps rarely die, younglings stayed weak. It was similar for many other High Clans, e.g., the Lasombra essentially ruled Spain and northern Africa, the <can't believe I'm flaking on the name, but the art-loving ones> ruled Paris, etc. I think Ventrue were mostly Germanic lands and maybe Britain, but aren't completely sure.

There was a revolt as several vamps decided they didn't like the strict hierarchy. War raged for a long time, and eventually two factions formed: the rebels became the Sabbat, led mostly by the Lasombra and Tcizimize (however it's spelled) since the rebels killed off the highest-ranking vamps that were against rebellion. The rest formed the Camarilla, largely held by those who were in charge previously. (And I think a few wanted to keep fighting and became Anarchs, but they don't matter much. And some clans, like Giovanni (if they existed yet--don't recall), were neutral.)

The Camarilla and Sabbat both agreed that an open war wasn't great for vamps in general. I think the Camarilla might've strongarmed the Sabbat into giving at least lip-service to the idea of Masquerade. But the big deal was that open warfare between vampires was gone, and now there were two major factions that included several clans. Some clans may have been friendly or allied in the past, and vamps of different clans did co-exist, but previously it was largely "this is Ventrue territory" or "this is Lasombra territory". It got a bit more free after that.

On a side note, then, as now, everyone hates and distrusts the Tremere. But, if memory serves me, they got to join the Camarilla in part because their sorcery was a good counter to the Sabbat. (EDIT: I remembered a bit more on Tremere. They had really ticked off the Tcizimize and thus were at war with them. I think they acted as good buffer, so the Camarilla was willing to bolster them in hopes they'd take the brunt of the attack from the Tcimize territories. (Doing a ritual on an elder to become vamps, and using their bodies as resources to make the Gargoyle clan, can make a lot of enemies. (It was later that Lord Tremere diablerized Saulot and became Antedeluvian-rank.))

---

So, as to what is relevant for you: the Ventrue Antitribu are the survivors or descendants of those Ventrue who joined the rebels. There was a large Ventrue population who worked for the Lasombra as military leaders, so that gives a precedence for them as loyal to Lasombra. On the other hand, it seems that the Sabbat as a whole has gotten more corrupt and vile over the centuries. They were always largely bad, being vampires, but during the rebellion I can see them as the 'good guys', or at least possible for good, compared to the existing order.

[Wraith]

JeenLeen gave you an exquisite summary, all I wish to do is add to it rather than correct.

The Ventrue are self-styled "kings". They see themselves as the royalty of the Vampire society, and as such tend to gravitate to positions of power, even in modern nights; they become CEOs and political figures, as well as appointing themselves the de facto leaders in any sort of Vampire-exclusive event, like Elysium.

In the historical era, this tended to make them warlords as much as they were chieftains; Christendom-style Knights in particular, as their lands tended to be in western Europe. As such, when Vampire society schism'd in 1493CE, the more militaristic-minded Cainites who preferred to dominate mankind rather than tolerate them joined up with the proto-Sabbat with the intention of fighting a war with the "Carmarilla" and taking their pace at the head of both the human and vampire worlds.

There was something of an agreement since then and the open warfare became more about political power, however the Ventrue antitribu still remember those days when they were leading the charge and overthrowing fiefdoms for their own, and still style themselves as warriors and rightfully-placed leaders. Lots of mercenaries, Black Ops-entities and similarly militaristic groups find their way to becoming Ventrue antitribu. If the Sabbat is Caine's army, THEY intend to be the Generals, and often the 'heroes' who land the killing blow.

You may not be surprised to learn that there is an oWoD wiki (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) - if ever I need to find some obscure lore and I don't have my huge pile of books with me, it's a good place to look anything up, including the defining events of the Sabbat as well as definitions of Clans and their antitribu. Maybe that, with some of the character archetypes listed, will help inspire you?


the <can't believe I'm flaking on the name, but the art-loving ones> ruled Paris

Toreador :smallsmile:

[comicshorse]

I think Ventrue were mostly Germanic lands and maybe Britain, but aren't completely sure.


Yep. Canonically one of the reasons Lasombra controlled Spain kept sending Armada's back in Elizabeth the First's reign.


The Camarilla and Sabbat both agreed that an open war wasn't great for vamps in general. I think the Camarilla might've strong armed the Sabbat into giving at least lip-service to the idea of Masquerade. But the big deal was that open warfare between vampires was gone

The Camarilla and Sabbat are still at war they've just moved to a more Cold War style of battle with occasional bursts of all out invasions of each other cities. The Sabbat will vigorously deny observing the Masquerade, usually loudly and at length and with numerous refrences to 'Camarilla Wimps who hide from blood sacks'. In fact they do maintain the Masquerade because they aren't entirely stupid


There was something of an agreement since then and the open warfare became more about political power, however the Ventrue antitribu still remember those days when they were leading the charge and overthrowing fiefdoms for their own, and still style themselves as warriors and rightfully-placed leaders. Lots of mercenaries, Black Ops-entities and similarly militaristic groups find their way to becoming Ventrue antitribu. If the Sabbat is Caine's army, THEY intend to be the Generals, and often the 'heroes' who land the killing blow.

There's a suggestion in the first Ventrue Clan Book, I think, that one of the lines of fracture in the Venture Clan was between those who were interested in becoming merchants and bankers and exerting influence through financial power and those who wanted to remain the warrior elite. Unsurprisingly most of the warrior types opted to join the Sabbat


P.S
One of the other factor behind the Anarch revolt was the Inquisition and the Elders habit of abandoning their progeny when in danger or even betraying them to the Inquisition to save their own skins lead to a LOT of bad feeling. A sufficiently old Vampire might have joined the Sabbat as a chance to strike back against the Elders that betrayed him, or a younger Kindred be Embraced by such a Vampire and taught to carry on the grudge

[The Glyphstone]

The Sabbat don't obey the Masquerade. They follow the Silence of the Blood, which is totally a completely different thing you guys and not at all identical to the Masquerade in nearly every particular.

[Kish]

Which Edition are you playing? "What are the Ventrue antitribu like" is a question that changes dramatically depending on the answer.

[SirAshley]

Thank you for all of the information, everyone! It is very helpful, and I never put the two and two together on using the Dark Ages Vampire Ventrue entry to gather some of the lore on how the Sabbat Ventrue think and feel. To answer Kish, we are going to be using the V20 rule set.

I also have a follow-up question, if you will indulge me. Do Sabbat Ventrue utilize the same selective system for choosing progeny that their Camarilla counterparts do, or are they more fast and loose with their childer?

[Wraith]

I also have a follow-up question, if you will indulge me. Do Sabbat Ventrue utilize the same selective system for choosing progeny that their Camarilla counterparts do, or are they more fast and loose with their childer?

The short answer is No - Sabbat kindred don't follow the Traditions, and are free to embrace as they wish. Often they'll do it in whatever way will spite their parent-clan in the most offensive way.

Unofficially, the longer answer is yes they do, but they would refuse it if you straight-up asked them about it.

Most antitribu hate their Carmarilla counter-parts, considering them weak slaves to the Antidiluveans and generally going out of their way to do everything that the Carmarilla tells them not to do out of spite and rebellion. The proud, honour-driven Ventrue are particularly malicious in this regard - they don't just despise the Cam-Venture for political and familial reasons, but for reasons of honour, chivalry and the rest - they loathe the weaklings who gave up on their crusading heritage to become CEOs and board members, and go out of their way to avoid childer of the same type, in specific favour of new paladins, soldiers and crusaders.

You can see the disconnect at work right there? Venture antitribu won't Embrace to exacting standards like the Carmarilla Venture, who have their offspring prove themselves in great social and political manoeuvres and establishing themselves as powerful corporate overlords who can recite their entire lineages at extreme length.... but they WILL make sure that they only find skilled and proud warriors and soldiers who can prove themselves in great feats of arms and combat and explain their deeds in extensive sagas.... But it's TOTALLY different, alright!? :smalltongue:

They'll still engage in the shovelhead method, when the situation calls for it; for a specific, intentional Embrace, the Ventrue tend to cling to specific standards of some kind, though.

[The Jack]

I think everyone overdid it, here's some easy knowledge.

Some ventrue antitribu function like their cammy counterparts; they're CEO's, businessmen, officers; respectable. They dont have as strong of a clan structure, but they're mostly similar.

Crusader type ventru anti's are bad larpers. A potent mix of bad history and "we're special and elite and the other dudes suck" type dogma. Depending on the group, you could get anachronism or IED's. Crazy dudes, but terrifying all the same. Think a frat,or a cult, or a racial hate group, or of people with nothing else to believe in.

St. Gustav is a vampire they all look up to, they believe Presence is a cammy-ventrue decadence and that auspex is what the
ventrue antideluvian had, as they're his true bloodline, and gustav saved them or something. Look, the more hammy beliefs you have, the more you fit in.

Auspex is legit better though.
Make friends with a tremere so he can set your swords on fire.

Sabbat in general vary in embracing practices; shovelheads exist as do carefully selected childer. A ventrue Shovelhead that survives would likely be indoctrinated as a crusader.