Planar Touchstone + Hierophant = Profit

[Chalhubard]

Greetings, playground!

Been toying around with an idea lately: consider the feat Planar Touchstone, more specifically, the Catalogues of Enlightenment - said touchstone grants us the ability to:

Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10+ the spell's level.

Now, on to qualify for the Hierophant class, which requires nothing but:


Knowledge (religion) 15 ranks;
Any metamagic feat;
Able to cast 7th-level divine spells.



As highlighted, the Catalogues allow us to cast a cleric spell as though we had prepared the spell normally. Properly qualified as Hierophant, we would then select the Spell-like ability class feature:

Spell-Like Ability A hierophant who selects this special ability can use one of his divine spell slots to permanently prepare one of his divine spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The hierophant does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so, and a spell with a costly material component instead costs him 10 times that amount in XP.

As such, we would have 0 spells per day from the Planar Touchstone - for a conservative approach, lets say we wouldn't get an extra spell for high ability scores, even though the Catalogues state we prepare the spell *normally*. As often demonstrated in class advancement tables, having "0" spells per day is different from having "-" spells per day, therefore we would still qualify for Hierophant, preventing disqualification loops.

Et voilà: 9th level spell-like ability usable twice a day! We could even stretch it a bit further and grab Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and had, say, supernatural Shapechange, Time Stop, or Miracle a couple of pops every 24 hours.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(1) Good trick. Planar Touchstone is a nice feat, better than most early entry feats.
(2) You may cast as though you had it prepared. Giving up a spell slot is not equivalent to casting a spell as if prepared in that spell slot.


It's definitely a good early entry trick for those PrCs that require a particular spell, but I don't think Hierophant lets you give up the Catalogues of Enlightenment benefit to gain the Spell-Like Ability benefit.

[Chalhubard]

Well, yes, no game table functioning at regular power levels would allow this to fly. In high powered games, though, mundanes might actually be able to enjoy the spotlight for a combat or two.

By RAW, the "as though you had prepared the spell normally" clause seems to allow such interaction; In the SRD, under the section "Divine Spells", in the "Magic" chapter:

A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

The explicit mention of a slot points us to the necessity of filling up a spell slot in order to cast the divine spell normally.

Therefore, giving up such slot would qualify us for the Hierophant's Spell-like ability, robbing us, however, the ability to cast the spell from the ad hoc slot supplied by the Planar Touchstone.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The explicit mention of a slot points us to the necessity of filling up a spell slot in order to cast the divine spell normally.
If you had an ability that said "you can prepare and cast one spell from this domain", you'd have a point. The Catalogues of Enlightenment benefit, however, lets you "cast [...] as if you had prepared the spell normally", meaning: "you didn't really, but you can pretend for the purpose of casting (and not other things, or we'd have mentioned them)". Since the benefit of the touchstone is bypassing the need for a spell slot altogether, it stands to reason that you can't give up that slot to fuel another ability.

[Chalhubard]

I do see your point as not merely a matter of semantics.

However, there are examples of "as if" clauses sprinkled throughout the game, some of them even in core. Take weapon familiarity, for instance:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

Said weapons would enjoy a "virtual" martial weapon status in the hands of those wielders gifted with weapon familiarity, but would still count as exotic weapons for purposes such as entering the Exotic Weapon Master PrC.

While I do sympathize with your take of the "as if" tag enforcing a virtual feature, according to RAW - and, given the illustrated example, RAI - "as if" is as good as the thing itself, no?

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] according to RAW - and, given the illustrated example, RAI - "as if" is as good as the thing itself, no?
Weapon Familiarity and Planar Touchstone don't use the same wording.

Weapon Familiarity uses "treat [a weapon] as martial". You "treat [I]x as something" any time you use x at all, so this is as universal as it gets. You can treat dwarven ugroshes as martial weapons for any purpose you can come up with, and all other purposes, too.

Planar Touchstone uses "cast a spell as if prepared". Both "cast" and "prepare" are specific actions defined in the rules, and one is required to perform the other. The rule tells us that "prepare" may be considered fulfilled, so that "cast" may proceed. However, if you substitute some other thing you can do with a prepared spell, such as "sacrifice" (as per the Arcane Strike feat), then it doesn't work: you can't "sacrifice a spell as if prepared", you can only "cast". In the same way, you can't substitute "permanently prepare" (as per the Hierophant's Special Ability ability), because you can only "cast". As an aside: if you could make the substitution, it would result in "permanently prepare a spell as if prepared", which is more than a little weird.


I know I'm being crazy precise here, but 3.5 is very open to rules interactions, and if you don't select carefully, everything will start interacting with everything.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, I'm firmly on ExLibrisMortis's side here. It only lets you cast a spell as if you had prepared it, not do other things with that pseudo-spell slot.

[Getsugaru]

Not to complicate things, but doesn't Shadowcaster have a similar wording problem? I'm AFB at the moment so I can't check, but if I'm not mistaken we may have just found a way for Shadowcasters to qualify for even more prestige classes than before. :smallamused:

[Chalhubard]

Weapon Familiarity and Planar Touchstone don't use the same wording.

Weapon Familiarity uses "treat [a weapon] as martial". You "treat [I]x as something" any time you use x at all, so this is as universal as it gets. You can treat dwarven ugroshes as martial weapons for any purpose you can come up with, and all other purposes, too.

Planar Touchstone uses "cast a spell as if prepared". Both "cast" and "prepare" are specific actions defined in the rules, and one is required to perform the other. The rule tells us that "prepare" may be considered fulfilled, so that "cast" may proceed. However, if you substitute some other thing you can do with a prepared spell, such as "sacrifice" (as per the Arcane Strike feat), then it doesn't work: you can't "sacrifice a spell as if prepared", you can only "cast". In the same way, you can't substitute "permanently prepare" (as per the Hierophant's Special Ability ability), because you can only "cast". As an aside: if you could make the substitution, it would result in "permanently prepare a spell as if prepared", which is more than a little weird.


I know I'm being crazy precise here, but 3.5 is very open to rules interactions, and if you don't select carefully, everything will start interacting with everything.

You're absolutely right about crazy interactions, and I thank you a lot for helping me figure this one out!

Well, at least I'll look fondly at Planar Touchstone for qualifying for PrCs when I'm behind the spell level accessibility curve.

[Troacctid]

I mean it is actually legitimately not easy to qualify for the higher-order ability.

[Chalhubard]

I mean it is actually legitimately not easy to qualify for the higher-order ability.

Doesn't look bad to me: 1d4 weeks or 20 days - if you have an INT modifier of +5 or better.

[Troacctid]

That Knowledge test to get in, though. If you don't have magic to boost your check, it can be rough. You need +18 just to have a 50% chance of passing.

[Chalhubard]

Planar Handbook describes the Catalogues as an ECL 8 encounter, so a generic level 8 caster or skillmonkey would easily have 16 INT and a +2 item or reasonable duration Fox's Cunning. Max skill ranks in each category listed is not unexpected because of their utility to Knowledge Devotion. Get in a a +5 from a Tome of Wordly Memory for meager 1.500gp and top it with a Book of All Knowledge.

+5 Intelligence Modifier
+11 Skill ranks
+2 Masterwork tool - circumstance
+5 Tome of Wordly Memory - competence (MIC 1.500gp)
+10 Book of All Knowledge - insight (CC 3.000gp)

+33 Total

An opposed roll of +33 vs. +18 doesn't strike me as particularly difficult, specially if we consider this was closer to a non caster scenario. If this were a properly optimized caster, we would probably be looking at starting INT 18 + 2 level + 2 race + 3 age + 4 enhancement - 29. Potentially 31, if we try really hard and toss in a +2 alchemical INT from drugs, and have your familiar use the Aid Another action, putting us at a +40.