The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA [Archive]

Inevitability

2018-09-25, 06:46 AM

Lumi

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/5/50/83020.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111112215003

Lumi, because starting interplanar war and executing millions of people for small lies is something that's both reasonable and non-evil. Good ol' wacky alignments.

Two outsider RHD aren't all that bad. The ability adjustments (+2 strength, +4 constitution, +4 wisdom, -2 charisma) aren't terrible either, though the implied caster focus doesn't go that well with the RHD. Free Improved Initiative is quite nice.

The special abilities are mostly immunities: Body of Light gives immunity to death effects, energy drain and negative energy effects, as well as being on the positive energy plane. Clear Vision protects the Lumi from light effects, being blinded, or being dazzled. Finally, Floating Head removes the bonus for flanking them in addition to preventing decapitation and strangulation.

Finally, the Lumi's SLAs are a mixed bag. Disrupt Undead at-will is mostly useless, Light at-will isn't great either, and 3/day Cure Light Wounds is hardly something to write home about (if nice to have), but 3/day Glitterdust is excellent.

Based on the good stats, varied immunities, and access one of the best level 2 spells, I think anything below +0 would be ludicrous, and the combination of various useful abilities is enough to push it to +1.

OgresAreCute

2018-09-25, 08:12 AM

New thread woo!

Lumis are hardly exciting, but I suppose they are servicable.

+0

Aniikinis

2018-09-25, 08:43 AM

Maybe I'll start to freaking add more to this project instead of completely lurking and posting like once this thread.

Anyways, Lumi are useful, very useful, and I've always played them as positive energy versions of the Khen-Zai, but I can't really see them being anywhere but on the low end of +1 LA.

liquidformat

2018-09-25, 09:26 AM

I guess I am scratching my head over what to compare these to. They have 2 BAB All good saves 8+int skill points/ level and 2d8 hp. Lets say their starting ability scores are +2 Con -2 Cha. That would mean level 1 they get +2 Str +2 Wis Disrupt Undead at-will and 3/day Cure Light Wounds. Level 2 is +2 Con +2 Wis Light at-will and 3/day Glitterdust. Or some combination there of however you would like to break that up.

At level 2 a sorcerer has 2 first level spells they can cast 4 times per day, 5 zero level spells they can cast 6 times per day, +1 bab 2d4hd 2+int/level skill points, 1 good save, and a familiar. Where as bard has 5 zero level spells which can be cast 3 times per day and 2 first level spells that can be cast 0 times per day, +1 bab, 2 good saves, 2d6, bardic knowledge and music.

The Lumi at level two has just as good casting as a sorcerer or bard and better everything else. At level 2 anyways they are better than any class, between ability scores and 3/day cure light wounds you have more hp than a barbarian and glitterdust utility offsets much of the damage difference between barb and lumi. However, after about level 5 the power difference is muted by class level abilities. So the question is, is that low level advantage worth la. Also I am scratching my head over where to go with the Lumi, cleric seems like an obvious choice and though loosing two caster levels sucks it doesn't ruin it for being a full caster either. I feel like if the game has labuy off then +1 if it doesn't then +0.

Since we are going with the assumption of no LAbuy off I will go with +0.

Efrate

2018-09-25, 09:33 AM

Celestia

2018-09-25, 10:43 AM

+0 seems fine, though I wouldn't object to +1.

ViperMagnum357

2018-09-25, 10:51 AM

I am leaning towards strong LA +0 for the Lumi. The stats mostly suggest a divine caster, with only a +2 Strength bonus, +4 Con and a Dex penalty to go with 0 natural AC and no natural weapons on 2 RHD. Yet those same RHD put you well behind a caster-a Lesser Aasimar neutralizes the Dex penalty by halving the Wisdom bonus, and shifts the almost useless Strength bonus to Charisma, where it helps Turning and face skills, and of course 2 more caster levels. That leaves the Lumi paying 2 RHD for 1 BAB, +4 Constitution and its various abilities, and I am not sure that is a trade I would make on most days.

I stick with LA +0. I know we are not supposed to be balancing these things against builds of tier 1 and 2 classes, but honestly this thing looks like it was built to be a full caster that did not care about losing caster levels, so eh.

Lapak

2018-09-25, 10:59 AM

There are some caster bonus stats in there, but at +2 Str, +4 CON and 2 BAB for 2 HD (plus all good saves) this seems like it could make an exceptional frontline warrior type as well. 2 HD aren't enough to put you seriously behind in any melee class in terms of abilities. It does almost nothing to a martial initiator (and might even smooth out some maneuver tracks?) but you're getting a set of immunities that cost melee types money or buffing to cover otherwise on top of bonus stats, plus a little utility from your SLAs.

I usually lean towards less LA rather than more, but if this feels like it's more than a +0; I think I vote a weak +1 here.

Nifft

2018-09-25, 11:53 AM

Lumi Swordsage 2 might be great (though not stealthy), and the +4 Con / +4 Wis is juicy for a Totemist.

Hmm, Lumi Ardent 2 / Totemist 2 / Soul Manifester 10... at LA +0, they'd be one level behind a core race Ardent/Totemist/SoulMan, but with a lot of useful immunities.

Lumi Barbarian 2 / Fist of the Forest 3 / _____ PrC 10

Their skill list is pretty good: Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot -- with a racial +2 on Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

Their racial +4 Wis, access to Spot, racial +2 Spot, Darkvision and immunity to blindness makes them effective scouts. Not stealthy scouts (what with their glowing thing) but very unlikely to get blind-sided.

At high levels, their immunities will be relevant. At low levels, they'll have immunity to several popular low-level debuffs (including hold person thanks to their type), and they'll have cure light wounds.

Verdict: LA +1, though I could see being a strong LA +0

Caelestion

2018-09-25, 12:00 PM

I think it should be +1. Outsider RHD are really good as RHD go, so being able to enter play at 3rd-level without a class seems fair to me.

Zaq

2018-09-25, 12:01 PM

That Glitterdust is the real kicker. That’s an actually good SLA a noticeable number of times per day. Everything else is minor enough to not be worth the RHD (best RHD in the game, but losing class features sucks).

I think +0 is still the best choice, because I can’t see myself ever finding them worth losing three whole levels. They’d be a weird option if they just cost two levels, but losing three levels in exchange for racial features that don’t scale and that don’t offer any radically paradigm-changing capabilities (contrast with something that has a useful exotic movement mode, for example) is a harder sell than I’m willing to make right now.

Mike Miller

2018-09-25, 12:08 PM

I say +1 for the Lumi. They are a welcome change of pace from the slew of zeros

Inevitability

2018-09-25, 01:19 PM

Odd question, since disrupt undead is a ray of positive energy does it heal things? Cause being a clw wand that's never out of charges is pretty nice. Dont think so but i honestly dont know. Otherwise I'll give them a plus 0. They can do pretty much anything with a very nice base. They get one of the best feats for free since initiative isn't the easiest thing to boost, and you were taking it anyways if you have room. 2 outsider rhd are perfectly fine on them as a plus 0.

It's not free healing, sadly (otherwise I'd probably assign them +1). Just like how negative energy doesn't always heal undead (Chill Touch comes to mind), positive energy doesn't always heal the living.

Remuko

2018-09-25, 01:40 PM

If they didnt have the 2 HD I'd easily say at least +1 but with them, even if theyre pretty good, I think I vote for a very strong +0.

No brains

2018-09-25, 03:41 PM

Man I am grumpy. Not only did my thread titles fail, we start of the thread with Lumi. I have no brains and I must scream. :smalltongue:

I hate these these floating-head axe clowns. Just troll some angry swear storms on youtube and you get my thoughts on these guys. Inevitability has my back on their bizarre fluff, but their crunch is just as weird to me. The whole neckless thing is weird especially considering that they still need their mouths to breathe and eat and their brains for not dying (who's stupid now, Lumis?).

Whining about how I hate them may seem off topic, but I think its relevant to their LA. They're so weird yet bland that I can't think of a good LA that regulates how much someone would want to play them. At +0, I have better options for just about everything else, especially with 2RHD. That said, their weird immunities could be a godsend in some very specific games. SLAs are nice too, but I think most players would rather have the extra 2 class levels so they can cast glitterdust on their own. It's like a forced dip into a weird kind of cleric. +1 LA would likely push them over the edge into the bin of monsters that won't see play. They're good, but not optimized.

Blue Jay

2018-09-25, 04:09 PM

I'm kind of on the fence on the Lumi, but I think I'll say LA +1, just to be a little conservative.

Looking back, 2HD creatures with LA +0 include most of the Small elementals, violet fungus, grimlock, homunculus, krenshar, kuo-toa, magmin, sahuagin, shocker lizard, skum, spider swarm, troglodyte, flind gnoll and swindlespitter.

And 2HD creatures with LA +1 include the azer, Small air elemental, ghoul, grick, phantom fungus, pseudodragon, sahuagin (mutant)

I think the Lumi fits a little better in the second group than the first.

And even though the idea of a floating head is unbelievably dumb, I still like the Lumi. I guess it's one of those things (like the Lhosk) where it's so dumb that I find it charming.

Thurbane

2018-09-25, 04:48 PM

"Paying" for all of it's goodies with 2 RHD doesn't seem enough to me. I'd vote LA +1, and a solid LA +1 at that.

DeTess

2018-09-25, 05:04 PM

It's the glitterdust that pushes this one over the edge for me. Getting that decent 2nd level spell as an SLA a decent number of times per day on a solid chassis is worth more than 2 RHD. +1 LA.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-09-25, 06:42 PM

It's one of those annoying creatures that seems really good at ECL 2, but not at ECL 3. At ECL 3, the base attack/skill point advantage disappears (relative to cl. cleric), hit points/AC are not especially high, and the glitterdust is no more than an on-level ability. It would be a nice touch if the SLAs' save DCs were Wisdom-based (what with the +4 racial Wisdom and cleric favoured class), but I can't think of any monster that has a swapped casting stat for flavour purposes.

Azer are about as good as lumi, having +6 NA and SR 13 instead of glitterdust and Improved Initiative. Azer have fighter as favoured class, and to a fighter, azer abilities and HD are really good. To a cleric, lumi abilities are good (even just Wisdom/immunities), but the HD are a drag. That said, I don't think it's fair to rate lumi at t1-t2 and azer at t5-t4. Both azer and lumi are probably LA +1 at t4 or t3 (ToB/totemist etc., non-caster with RHD scaling). For a caster (no RHD scaling), I'd avoid both, even without LA. A casting stat bonus is not worth being a spell level behind unless it's at least +8 (and even then...).

Edit: I guess that's a vote for LA +1? ...Ish?

javcs

2018-09-25, 07:57 PM

Elkad

2018-09-26, 05:58 AM

Pile of immunities on top of 2 outsider HD and good stats?
Middling +1

liquidformat

2018-09-26, 08:54 AM

Lumi are weird.
They're definitely at least a strong +0. They're probably still acceptably balanced at +1 at low levels, but it isn't scaling, and I don't think that they're still +1 at higher levels.

It's hard to say, honestly.

Ya that is where I am at, they are definitely a +1 from level 2 to somewhere between level 5-9 after which they are a +0, early on those SLA are helpful and later the immunities are helpful but either way you are getting those for two potential class levels. If the SLAs were useful after level 5~ and scaled well I would say ya +1 but as is I don't think they have enough that is relevant long enough to require a +1.

Like I said before these guys are only +1 if you are playing with buyoff as is they are a +0.

Nifft

2018-09-26, 09:02 AM

Ya that is where I am at, they are definitely a +1 from level 2 to somewhere between level 5-9 after which they are a +0, early on those SLA are helpful and later the immunities are helpful but either way you are getting those for two potential class levels. If the SLAs were useful after level 5~ and scaled well I would say ya +1 but as is I don't think they have enough that is relevant long enough to require a +1.

At low levels, yeah, the SLAs are most relevant.

At high levels, the immunities are most relevant:
Body of Light gives immunity to death effects, energy drain and negative energy effects, as well as being on the positive energy plane. Clear Vision protects the Lumi from light effects, being blinded, or being dazzled. Finally, Floating Head removes the bonus for flanking them in addition to preventing decapitation and strangulation.

Those are most relevant at higher levels, where enemies are more likely to have energy drain attacks or death ray eyes.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-09-26, 10:11 AM

I disagree with the notion of la only if above tier 3. we all know casting in excess of your hd gets you la, but it's not the only thing.
Agreed.
Though I'd say it's hard to justify losing more than a few class levels in any case; you would either need some neat abilities or really big numbers.

Power creep is a legitimate concern, but LA isn't sufficiently nuanced to have a valid application either way.
LA is too blunt a tool to draw these lines.
C'est la D&D. This isn't GURPS, where we can tweak relative power levels to the level of a single skill point; you either have 1 level of e.g. fighter, or you have 2, or you have none. (Or 3+, but listing every integer would be silly.)

Lumi, because starting interplanar war and executing millions of people for small lies is something that's both reasonable and non-evil. Good ol' wacky alignments.
Clearly, they attended the same law school as Miko Miyazaki.

...Light at-will isn't great either...
Speaking from 5e experience, at-will light is very useful indeed. Being able to provide vision for non-darkvision party members in the dark is very...oh, right, Lumi are luminous.

Odd question, since disrupt undead is a ray of positive energy does it heal things? Cause being a clw wand that's never out of charges is pretty nice. Dont think so but i honestly dont know.

You direct a ray of positive energy. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit, and if the ray hits an undead creature, it deals 1d6 points of damage to it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)
Presumably, not all positive energy is the same. After all, not all negative energy is; sometimes it gives you HP damage, sometimes negative levels, sometimes other things entirely.

Everything else is minor enough to not be worth the RHD (best RHD in the game, but losing class features sucks).
I still, and likely always will, argue that two skill points per level are not obviously or universally superior to (on average) two hit points per level.

The whole neckless thing is weird especially considering that they still need their mouths to breathe and eat and their brains for not dying (who's stupid now, Lumis?).
What's so weird about them needing their brains for not dying, especially in a world where natural telepathy is a thing? And who says they breathe through their mouths? Plenty of real-world animals breathe through other things (ranging from nostrils, to skin, to a specialized growth off the lower digestive tract).
...Eating is still weird, though. I'll give you that.

Lumi should be +0

Lumi are a weak +1

What do you mean, weak?
Here's my take.
On one hand, Lumis aren't terribly specialized. They have a weird grab-bag of immunities, decent ability modifiers (especially Constitution and Wisdom), Improved Initiative, a couple of weak at-will SLAs, and a couple of useful 3/day SLAs. Oh, and small bonuses to commonly-used skills that start with S. What is all of this for? The +2 Strength and +4 Constitution (as well as the good HD) are good for a warrior, but their other abilities don't really support it (aside from maybe the flanking immunity), and -2 Dex isn't nice. +4 Wisdom and some spare healing are nice for clerics &c, but not worth two lost casting levels, and the other abilities aren't worth that much more than losing two levels of turn undead or whatever.
On the other hand...at the end of the day, they have a lot of good abilities. The outsider chassis is nice, even with its average HD. The ability bonuses are helpful. The grab-bag of immunities are odd, but helpful, and immunity to most serious negative energy effects is good in any build. That's true of a lot of the Lumi's abilities; they're not critical, but they're nice, and generally useful for anyone. Immunities, Improved Initiative, +3 in base saves...
The last nail in the coffin was Nifft pointing out that +4 to Constitution and Wisdom was good for swordsages and totemists. +1

Zaq

2018-09-26, 10:13 AM

Yeah, I guess I can see that an ECL 2 lumi is pretty darn nice next to a lot of other ECL 2 characters, but I don’t see it being so nice that it’s worth a long-term penalty, and I still don’t think I’d play one with a positive LA.

I forget, are we assuming that LA buyoff is still a thing, or are we trying to get the LA sufficiently right the first time that we don’t need to mess around with buyoff?

Inevitability

2018-09-26, 10:44 AM

I forget, are we assuming that LA buyoff is still a thing, or are we trying to get the LA sufficiently right the first time that we don’t need to mess around with buyoff?

LA buyoff is a variant rule that does not play a role in LA assignments, just like how it's not assumed monster RHD can be shelved on one side of a gestalt progression (which does incidentally sound like a way to make monster campaigns a lot more interesting).

Nifft

2018-09-26, 11:05 AM

LA buyoff is a variant rule that does not play a role in LA assignments, just like how it's not assumed monster RHD can be shelved on one side of a gestalt progression (which does incidentally sound like a way to make monster campaigns a lot more interesting).

On the subject of monster gestalt, my preference is:
- RHD on one side
- LA on both sides (i.e. apply LA after all HD calculations)
- allow LA buyoff

Efrate

2018-09-26, 12:39 PM

I'm going to jump on the plus 1 boat. more I look at them the more I'm leaning that way.

danielxcutter

2018-09-27, 09:02 AM

Relevant: https://youtu.be/T4sVmnfz9Wk?t=27s Especially since the monsters mentioned at the point I linked are all from the current book we're doing; that is MMIII.

liquidformat

2018-09-27, 09:26 AM

On the subject of monster gestalt, my preference is:
- RHD on one side
- LA on both sides (i.e. apply LA after all HD calculations)
- allow LA buyoff

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

OgresAreCute

2018-09-27, 09:48 AM

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

Yeah, LA is a hard sell compared to Fighter levels. It's even worse when compared to progression in two classes (which probably won't be fighter).

Nifft

2018-09-27, 10:37 AM

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

LA-on-one-side is a cheap way to reward stacking focus, which serves to favor specializing instead of diversifying.

I already know what rewarding focus looks like -- it looks like non-Gestalt D&D.

Gestalt is either about handling multiple roles, or about shoring up defenses & making lower-tier classes appear (as the passive side of an active/passive gestalt) -- again, LA-on-one-side rewards the opposite.

The balance I find works best to allow some LA but not allow mono-focus-stacking is to put LA on both sides, but then allow the LA to be bought off. That permits small LA (+1 mostly, +2 sometimes) but doens't allow LA to dominate classes. This isn't a house rule, by the way: the Gestalt rules only talk about putting classes on each side, so the only RAW-compliant place for LA and RHD is on top of both classes.

I houserule RHD to go on one side because I find them less abusable, and I want to run a more monster-inclusive game.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-09-27, 10:44 AM

The LA-on-one-side school implicitly uses monster classes. That's why it's about as RAW as LA-on-both-sides.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 10:47 AM

The LA-on-one-side school implicitly uses monster classes. That's why it's about as RAW as LA-on-both-sides.

When I've seen it, it's about Template stacking, and not at all monster classes.

Maybe only allowing monster classes would be okay?

But not Templates.

OgresAreCute

2018-09-27, 11:13 AM

When I've seen it, it's about Template stacking, and not at all monster classes.

Maybe only allowing monster classes would be okay?

But not Templates.

Messing around with Templates//Beatstick gestalt you can get some pretty funny numbers with dungeoncrasher and stacking +STR templates. I doubt it's really going to be a problem in a game where that is appropriate though.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 11:17 AM

Messing around with Templates//Beatstick gestalt you can get some pretty funny numbers with dungeoncrasher and stacking +STR templates. I doubt it's really going to be a problem in a game where that is appropriate though.

Right, the problem was with T1 casters stacking more effective T1 casting via templates and ignoring all non-T1 classes.

The problem I've seen was not about any kind of Fighters being too relevant.

javcs

2018-09-27, 11:24 AM

At low levels, yeah, the SLAs are most relevant.

At high levels, the immunities are most relevant:

Those are most relevant at higher levels, where enemies are more likely to have energy drain attacks or death ray eyes.

While the immunities are more relevant at higher levels, they're "just" immunities (meaning they're passive defenses) - plus anyone with a half decent Knowledge(The Planes) check is going to recognize that you have them - and being two or three class levels behind is a much tougher sell. Your first two or three classes levels are a far more equitable grade for two outsider RHD and respectable stat mods than class levels 15, 16, and 17, for example.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 11:35 AM

While the immunities are more relevant at higher levels, they're "just" immunities (meaning they're passive defenses) - plus anyone with a half decent Knowledge(The Planes) check is going to recognize that you have them - and being two or three class levels behind is a much tougher sell. Your first two or three classes levels are a far more equitable grade for two outsider RHD and respectable stat mods than class levels 15, 16, and 17, for example.

Monsters recognizing your immunities is mostly irrelevant -- a vampire can't swap out its energy drain overnight, so being immune to energy drain will be useful when you fight that monster.

Not needing to expend resources to cover those (significant) immunities is part of the high-level value proposition. You spend 3 levels to get 2 Outsider RHD and a bunch of immunities, plus some modest stat boosts. The immunities are not "just" immunities, they're money in your pocket which you can spend on other things. Probably not worth it for everyone, but that's fine. Ogre isn't worth it for everyone either.

OgresAreCute

2018-09-27, 11:49 AM

Right, the problem was with T1 casters stacking more effective T1 casting via templates and ignoring all non-T1 classes.

The problem I've seen was not about any kind of Fighters being too relevant.

For some reason I didn't think of that at all. I guess spending one of my level tracks on +INT for my wizard casting was just too uninspired for my brain to even consider.

javcs

2018-09-27, 11:53 AM

liquidformat

2018-09-27, 02:47 PM

Monsters recognizing your immunities is mostly irrelevant -- a vampire can't swap out its energy drain overnight, so being immune to energy drain will be useful when you fight that monster.

Not needing to expend resources to cover those (significant) immunities is part of the high-level value proposition. You spend 3 levels to get 2 Outsider RHD and a bunch of immunities, plus some modest stat boosts. The immunities are not "just" immunities, they're money in your pocket which you can spend on other things. Probably not worth it for everyone, but that's fine. Ogre isn't worth it for everyone either.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence...

LA-on-one-side is a cheap way to reward stacking focus, which serves to favor specializing instead of diversifying.

I already know what rewarding focus looks like -- it looks like non-Gestalt D&D.

Gestalt is either about handling multiple roles, or about shoring up defenses & making lower-tier classes appear (as the passive side of an active/passive gestalt) -- again, LA-on-one-side rewards the opposite.

The balance I find works best to allow some LA but not allow mono-focus-stacking is to put LA on both sides, but then allow the LA to be bought off. That permits small LA (+1 mostly, +2 sometimes) but doens't allow LA to dominate classes. This isn't a house rule, by the way: the Gestalt rules only talk about putting classes on each side, so the only RAW-compliant place for LA and RHD is on top of both classes.

I houserule RHD to go on one side because I find them less abusable, and I want to run a more monster-inclusive game.

I have not experienced this type of template abuse in any of the gestalt games I play, then again they typically have explicitly placed one template limit per character. Personally I think the one template limit is a much better way to handle this. A lot of the gestalt games I have been in have been great because they open up using monster races to being functional because the crushing WoTC LAs now don't hurt so much...

martixy

2018-09-27, 03:05 PM

I'm in the +1 camp on Lumi. Low-ish, but yea.

A few of good stats, offset by RHD and a good SLA or two.
Body of Light is also Su, not Ex, so technically circumventable by certain effects, which is a consideration I didn't see mentioned.

P.S. I run a gestalt game. My rule is: All LA and RHD before class levels, in whatever order you like, but levels with HD cannot be bought off.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 03:11 PM

For some reason I didn't think of that at all. I guess spending one of my level tracks on +INT for my wizard casting was just too uninspired for my brain to even consider. Yeah or a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Druid using psionic attacks as an owl, being immune to Enchantments and so forth, then adding on more templates (Dark Creature, Half-Elemental, whatever) over levels to get more Druid-focused perks.

Nothing wrong with Druids, but if I'm running a Gestalt game then I'd much rather see a Swordsage//Druid or a Totemist//Druid than what's effectively a single-class Druid with higher DCs.

Defenses are expensive to spend gold on, but the equivalent of multiple class levels in the teens are even more expensive. Depends on the class. You'd be correct about 3 levels of a T1 class being worth more than 2 outsider RHD + 1 LA, but I'm not certain that is true for all T3 / T4 classes.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence... Sure, but the Dead condition prevents all possible offense, and the Dominated condition turns you into a liability. Having no defense against enemy action can make you worse than useless.

I have not experienced this type of template abuse in any of the gestalt games I play, then again they typically have explicitly placed one template limit per character. So you also nerf, but you nerf differently.

I don't think your nerf is better than my nerf, but yours clearly works for you and that's fine: you keep the rules sane your way, I'll keep them sane my way.

You might talk to your DM about why the one-template rule was established -- it sounds like your DM might have seen the same discussions back on the WotC boards that prompted me to make my house rules, and might be able to point you to examples of potential abuse which are more relevant to your specific games.

liquidformat

2018-09-27, 03:29 PM

I have a couple dms one does max one template across the board even non gestalt and the other just stipulates only one template that has 'half' in the name. I think the second one does it more for the question of identifying what your above monster is... I mean seriously a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon, Dark Creature, Half-Elemental what exactly is that, and how exactly is a creature that has five lineages half anything?

Prime32

2018-09-27, 03:46 PM

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

martixy

2018-09-27, 03:56 PM

DeTess

2018-09-27, 04:05 PM

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

correct me if I'm wrong, but they aren't really 'planetouched', are they? The planetouched races are clearly human(oid) with a dash of their respective planes caused by having an outsider ancestor. Lumi are more like Modrons or demons or angles, in that they're an expression of their own plane, as opposed to the bastard-children that Tieflings or Aasimar are.

javcs

2018-09-27, 04:20 PM

Depends on the class. You'd be correct about 3 levels of a T1 class being worth more than 2 outsider RHD + 1 LA, but I'm not certain that is true for all T3 / T4 classes.

Eh ... if it's T3/T4 and not a full 9 caster, it's there on the basis of its class features.
If it's an initiator, it is down a full maneuver level. If it's an incarnum class it is down essentia and probably at least one chakra.
If it is neither a primary caster, initiator, nor incarnum class, then it's even more dependent upon class features - and it will likely be late on PRC entry as well.
If it's something like Rogue or Scout, it's down two advances of Sneak Attack or Skirmish, and is still three levels behind on its other class features.

I have a couple dms one does max one template across the board even non gestalt and the other just stipulates only one template that has 'half' in the name. I think the second one does it more for the question of identifying what your above monster is... I mean seriously a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon, Dark Creature, Half-Elemental what exactly is that, and how exactly is a creature that has five lineages half anything?
Being fair, Dark and Phrenic are fully compatible with each other and would not exclude each other or the half-templates in a logical world.
As for the various half templates ... sure, they're all inherited, but there are also ways to get at least some of them as acquired templates.

Inevitability

2018-09-27, 04:27 PM

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

If you mean their HD gets changed to Humanoid, then I'd argue that's a pretty clear +0. If you are instead talking about removing the HD altogether (seeing as lesser planetouched are by definition ECL 1) in addition to changing their type, then I'd probably go with +1.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 04:31 PM

Eh ... if it's T3/T4 and not a full 9 caster, it's there on the basis of its class features.

This thread is about T3 as the point at which we're supposed to evaluate balance, so yeah.

And at T3/T4, sometimes the Lumi is going to be a solid choice.

Like you're behind on maximum Sneak Attack, but you can glitterdust 3/day which means you can be an archery Rogue and get more full-attack Rapid Shot Sneak Attacks per day, and it balances out or puts you ahead. Or if blindness is a common ailment, yet you're never blind, then you make more Sneak Attacks on rounds when you'd otherwise suffer a miss chance (and lose both 50% of your hits and 100% of your Sneak Attack).

javcs

2018-09-27, 05:04 PM

This thread is about T3 as the point at which we're supposed to evaluate balance, so yeah.

And at T3/T4, sometimes the Lumi is going to be a solid choice.

Like you're behind on maximum Sneak Attack, but you can glitterdust 3/day which means you can be an archery Rogue and get more full-attack Rapid Shot Sneak Attacks per day, and it balances out or puts you ahead. Or if blindness is a common ailment, yet you're never blind, then you make more Sneak Attacks on rounds when you'd otherwise suffer a miss chance (and lose both 50% of your hits and 100% of your Sneak Attack).

If blindness is a sufficiently common ailment that immunity to blindness is a major factor in your ability to Rogue, then you probably shouldn't be a rogue in that campaign in the first place.

Yes, glitterdust 3/day should be useful for a Rogue. On the other hand, its caster level doesn't scale and you don't have a Charisma bonus to help your Save DC - in the teens, Glitterdust will help a little with an invisible target, but it's not going to successfully blind anybody.
I'm doubtful that it's worth 3 class/PRC levels in the teens. At level 5, sure. Level 15? Not so much.

Nifft

2018-09-27, 05:18 PM

If blindness is a sufficiently common ailment that immunity to blindness is a major factor in your ability to Rogue, then you probably shouldn't be a rogue in that campaign in the first place.

Yes, glitterdust 3/day should be useful for a Rogue. On the other hand, its caster level doesn't scale and you don't have a Charisma bonus to help your Save DC - in the teens, Glitterdust will help a little with an invisible target, but it's not going to successfully blind anybody.
I'm doubtful that it's worth 3 class/PRC levels in the teens. At level 5, sure. Level 15? Not so much.

~Obviously~ each single thing by itself isn't worth three levels, but equally obvious you don't get just one single thing, and you don't pay 3 levels -- you pay one level (LA) and get two RHD instead of levels, which are full-BAB, 8 skill points, and all-good-saves.

Blindness and invisibility impact Rogues more than normal, which is why I brought that example up. Lumi have (active and passive) options against Hide-based concealment, against invisibility, against mundane darkness, against blindness, and against being flanked when they try to mix it up in melee. They suck at stealth, but they're above par at delivering Sneak Attacks -- so they get 1.5 fewer dice, but they get to use their SA dice more often. That's a fair trade-off.

javcs

2018-09-27, 07:17 PM

~Obviously~ each single thing by itself isn't worth three levels, but equally obvious you don't get just one single thing, and you don't pay 3 levels -- you pay one level (LA) and get two RHD instead of levels, which are full-BAB, 8 skill points, and all-good-saves.

Blindness and invisibility impact Rogues more than normal, which is why I brought that example up. Lumi have (active and passive) options against Hide-based concealment, against invisibility, against mundane darkness, against blindness, and against being flanked when they try to mix it up in melee. They suck at stealth, but they're above par at delivering Sneak Attacks -- so they get 1.5 fewer dice, but they get to use their SA dice more often. That's a fair trade-off.

At LA +1, you're 3 class/PRC levels behind a 0 RHD +0 LA race.
Outsider RHD are pretty good, true.

As I said - at ECL 5, 2 class levels on top of 2 RHD and 1 LA is pretty solid tradeoff with what the Lumi gives you.
At ECL 15 ... only having 12 class levels - and thus only having 12 levels worth of class/PRC features, what the Lumi gives doesn't look quite as attractive a tradeoff with that LA in play - it is still definitely a solid +0, but it's not a +1 anymore.

Celestia

2018-09-27, 07:35 PM

+0 seems fine, though I wouldn't object to +1.
After reading some of the other comments, I have to change my answer. +0, and I would object to +1.

Though, I'd say +1 with LA buy off is fair, if someone were to go that route in s game.

RedWarlock

2018-09-27, 07:57 PM

Agree with the +1 on the Lumi.

As to the lesser planetouched comment, that’s a pure downgrade, because you lose the outsider HD benefits, which are part of its power. Those 2 HD matter to some degree, and then everything else on top..

GreatWyrmGold

2018-09-28, 10:40 AM

Relevant: https://youtu.be/T4sVmnfz9Wk?t=27s Especially since the monsters mentioned at the point I linked are all from the current book we're doing; that is MMIII.
I'm pretty sure the fourth one is from MM2, actually.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence...
Not if the defense is great enough. And remember, the immunities might be the biggest thing at 17th level, but it's not the only thing; the lumi has a lot of other perks, too. (Glitterdust never becomes useless; making invisible things visible is always occasionally useful, and you might be able to blind the odd enemy, which is definitely worth it.)
Lumi don't have any one ability which would be worth LA on its own...but they have plenty of useful abilities. Good ability bonuses, decent SLAs, a heap of immunities...all together, I'm confident they add up to more than two levels of class features.

correct me if I'm wrong, but they aren't really 'planetouched', are they? The planetouched races are clearly human(oid) with a dash of their respective planes caused by having an outsider ancestor. Lumi are more like Modrons or demons or angles, in that they're an expression of their own plane, as opposed to the bastard-children that Tieflings or Aasimar are.
I suspect Prime's motivation was more mechanical than flavorful. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
If this happened, though? Between getting stuck with two crappy HD and losing some of those immunities (including the ones most useful at lower levels), the Planetouched!Lumi would be seriously nerfed. I'd say it would earn +0 at that point.

liquidformat

2018-09-28, 12:05 PM

Not if the defense is great enough. And remember, the immunities might be the biggest thing at 17th level, but it's not the only thing; the lumi has a lot of other perks, too. (Glitterdust never becomes useless; making invisible things visible is always occasionally useful, and you might be able to blind the odd enemy, which is definitely worth it.)
Lumi don't have any one ability which would be worth LA on its own...but they have plenty of useful abilities. Good ability bonuses, decent SLAs, a heap of immunities...all together, I'm confident they add up to more than two levels of class features.

I am sorry but no, they have a singular good SLA and a second one that is ok up until you hit something around level 5 when it dramatically drops off in usefulness. And while yes glitterdust never becomes completely useless because there might be the odd couple of times after level 10 where you need it to make things visible because for whatever reason not everyone has that is its only use at level 10+. Saying you are going to use a whole round on glitterdust for the off chance of the enemy rolling a natural 1 on their save at 10+ to be blinded is an insult to everyone here. It isn't a good nor a reasonable use of action economy period, and if it is then tacking an +1 LA onto the character is doing no one any favors.

unseenmage

2018-09-28, 12:29 PM

Inevitability

2018-09-28, 04:30 PM

The Lumi poll!

+0 LA: 8 votes
+1 LA: 14 votes

A surprisingly large majority votes for +1, it seems. LA has been changed.

Inevitability

2018-09-28, 04:48 PM

Lurking Strangler

http://arcallis.wikidot.com/local--files/graphics/LurkingStrangler.bmp

A beholder, minus nine eyestalks and the entire main body. Also very complicated to rate.

The reason for that is that at low levels (2-4) lurking stranglers are awesome. Flight, Tiny size, +8 dexterity, and the ability to fire off two save-or-loses per round makes for one considerable threat, for obvious reasons. The thing is: those two save-or-loses only work on foes with less than 5-6 HD, meaning they start getting consistently useless from level 4 on, and are basically worthless past level 5. Without its eye rays, I don't think I'd assign the lurking strangler anything more than -0 LA.

Initially, I assigned +1 here, but I must disagree now. The strangler's lack of speech, limbs, or body slots mean that it's struggling even at ECL 2. While I'm not entirely sure I agree with -0* (the asterisk referring to the eye rays), I'll follow the majority and assign just that.

Lapak

2018-09-28, 04:55 PM

This one suffers more than any other monster seen so far from 'lack of body parts.' I can't see it using equipment of any kind - armor, weapons, even consumables like potions. No hands, no body, no mouth - that's enough in my view to cancel out the advantages it gets and make it +0 at best in its most favorable level range; combined with the hard cap on its major upside I would call this one -0 without a backward glance.

ViperMagnum357

2018-09-28, 05:08 PM

Lurking Strangler: oh look, a reason to play a living character with no neck, ya know, like a Lumi. :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, it is not just the lack of hands and body slots, it is those factored in with a creature with only 3 actual attacks, all three of which fail to work on 4 types outright: Undead, Construct, Ooze, and Plant, plus one or two effects not working on 3 other types: Dragon, Elemental, and Vermin. That is not getting into cases of individual immunities for particular enemy species, or the fact that 2 of your attacks cap out around 5-6 HD total.

I strongly disagree about rating LA based on a particular range for a character: if we are going to do that, then this becomes an exercise in futility, because every entry would be predicated on a particular range and require a separate scale, defeating the purpose of this thread: to establish a new, more balanced baseline so monsters can be playable as balanced PCs. Giving every entry its own scale where it is 'useful' is diametrically opposed to the stated goals and purpose of the thread.

Having said that, the Lurking Strangler also makes a piss-poor caster, coughing up 2 Aberration RHD in return for flight, 2 special attacks that will scale out around ECL 6 or so, 1 special attack that needs to be entirely built around with martial support, and mental ability adjustments of -6, 0, and 0. This is a monster that should remain a monster, unless a player wants to build a one trick pony around a strangulation assassin. I say LA -0, with no qualifiers.

Blue Jay

2018-09-28, 05:44 PM

What happens if a creature wakes up before the Strangle attack has run to completion? Does the creature get some kind of check to escape?

Anyway, I agree with Inevitability's initial assessment: LA +1 makes sense at low levels because of 2 spells per turn, but once it starts facing foes with more than 5 HD, its racial abilities are mostly superfluous.

I think I'll just vote for LA +0.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-09-28, 06:12 PM

It's hard to rate, alright. Can't think of a creature that scales worse than a lurking strangler. These critters will suck so badly at ECL 5+, you'll regret your campaign made it past the ECL 2-3 range. The obvious suggestion is to add 3 RHD and assign -0, but that's not possible, so... LA +0?

Lurking stranglers have one natural attack and no limbs. They can't even use mouthpick weapons or (arguably) soulmelds to gain natural attacks. It's virtually impossible to advance any of their racial abilities, and most classes require anatomical features that lurking stranglers simply lack. At best, you can get (at-will/Persistent) alter self, because there are some nice low-HD abberation forms (choker, maybe?), but that (arguably) negates every single one of your racial abilities and usually requires ECL 5+ to begin with.

If we assign -0, we're saying that a lurking strangler with a class level is a good decent ECL 2 character. That's not the case. On the other hand, if we don't assign -0, we suggest that a lurking strangler is a decent character at any point past ECL 5. That's also not the case.

I'm going to be slightly opportunistic and say that the lack of anatomy--limbs, mouth, natural reach, attacks, and so forth--would hurt so much even at ECL 3-4 that an overall LA of -0 is accurate over a sufficiently large portion of this creature's playable range that it's the best value to assign. I wouldn't be opposed to assigning an asterisk for ultra-bad scaling at LA +0, though.

Or: "LA +1 w/ free buyoff". That way you lose the LA at ECL 5, slightly addressing the scaling issue.

javcs

2018-09-28, 06:45 PM

I'd go with -0*.

At the handful of low levels when its abilities are useful, the lack of limbs hurts even more and you're too low level to be able to afford the ways to compensate for a lack of limbs.
Plus, you can't talk.

Caelestion

2018-09-28, 06:59 PM

Just two eyes on either end of a neck-stalk? No appendages, no way to communicate, no use. LA –* (see below).

Mike Miller

2018-09-28, 07:32 PM

Lurking strangler is an oddball, for sure. I think +0* is appropriate due to the poor scaling.

Nifft

2018-09-28, 07:39 PM

Sleep at-will is good exactly as long as you expect to face living foes with 4 HD or less. That's heavily campaign dependent -- I could see an E6 game basically never going beyond that point, with only rare high-powered enemies being immune to the effect. But that'd be a notable exception.

Thinking about the sorts of monster mixes I tend to use, I'd expect the effect to be worthless in 50% or more combats around 6th level. That includes enemies which are immune to fear & sleep, as well as enemies which are 5 or more HD. Before 6th level, the effects would have some effect most of the time.

The lack of limbs is absolutely crippling. It has no mouth yet it must scream.

Verdict: LA --*, aka LA "No."

-- -- --

I want one of these things with an eye and a hand, connected by a sinew. It can be the Vecnaberration.

Caelestion

2018-09-28, 08:08 PM

LA –* is what I meant, yes.

javcs

2018-09-28, 08:23 PM

I concur with the sentiments of LA Not Playable.

No brains

2018-09-28, 08:31 PM

The lack of limbs is absolutely crippling. It has no mouth yet it must scream.

I want one of these things with an eye and a hand, connected by a sinew. It can be the Vecnaberration.

Yeah, but it would have an easy time escaping LA. I have no brains and I must grumble...:smalltongue: Your pun makes me feel better tho.

Eye-bolas are weird and make me want a pretzel. Maybe +0* will say it best. It's going to take some severe DM work to get these guys to mesh with a party and even then it might not be 'good'.

Nifft

2018-09-28, 09:34 PM

Eye-bolas are weird

Oooo!

Eye-bolas might cause flesh-rotting (prevented by disease immunity).

Luccan

2018-09-28, 10:20 PM

It basicallt loses its advantage at a certain level and is otherwise almost entirely worthless, it can't even use any equipment without serious investment Even at T5 that would be bad. LA -0

Zaq

2018-09-28, 10:40 PM

Oooo!

Eye-bolas might cause flesh-rotting (prevented by disease immunity).

They're OP if you get two of 'em together. That progression is not linear.

Pair-eye-bolas? Geddit? Geddit? LAUGH, DAMMIT!

Celestia

2018-09-28, 10:42 PM

LA –* (see below).
Verdict: LA --*, aka LA "No."
I concur with the sentiments of LA Not Playable.
You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

---------

I vote LA -0*. This thing is just terrible. Sure, you get a couple levels where your one trick pony show gets rave reviews, but then you quickly become insignificant and worthless, like the jock who peaks in high school and then spends the rest of his life as a used car salesman.

javcs

2018-09-28, 10:49 PM

Zaq

2018-09-28, 11:44 PM

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

---------

I vote LA -0*. This thing is just terrible. Sure, you get a couple levels where your one trick pony show gets rave reviews, but then you quickly become insignificant and worthless, like the jock who peaks in high school and then spends the rest of his life as a used car salesman.

I'd already said -0*.
That's the closest rating we can give it, though -0* is kind of an inadequate description for how bad this thing is, IMO.

Pretty much this. -0* is a fair rating for something that has basically no organs and insanely limited advancement potential.

To contradict myself a bit, though, I guess you could pull off Warlock? You've got the DEX for it, and my understanding is that critters are generally assumed to be able to use their innate body structures to handle somatic components (and if you feel the need to pay a feat for the privilege, Surrogate Spellcasting is a simple enough tax). And I guess you could technically make an Ardent or something (2 lost levels sucks, but Ardents famously get the ability to make up some ground with Practiced Manifester, and psionics just requires a mind, not any specific organs). Sure, sparrow hengeyokai is basically the exact same joke with worse maneuverability (I think? Maybe not even that?) and better/fewer lost HD, but these monsters don't have to be perfectly unique in terms of build capacity. Just usable. Still, having (approximately) two extremely narrow windows open to you doesn't get the monster out of the -0* pit it's in.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-09-29, 09:07 AM

As to the Lumi discussion, sure outsider HD are good but only when compared to other monster HD.

Compared to class levels, it is my understanding, that any monster HD are hot garbage compared to actually advancing class abilities because class abilities need to be advanced to remain a worthwhile investment.
Well, yes. But outsider HD are pretty good HD compared to most class HD, and many people (myself included) argue that the Lumi's special abilities are a pretty good substitute for class features.

Lurking Strangler stuff
I'd go with something like -0⚠️, personally. Multiple save-or-loses per round, every round, seems pretty concerning at low levels (even without any weapons or armor or anything). Probably not worth LA, probably worth a warning.

Or: "LA +1 w/ free buyoff". That way you lose the LA at ECL 5, slightly addressing the scaling issue.
I mean, if we allow this kind of system tweak, this would be ideal...but it's basically "different LA at different levels," a can of worms I'd rather leave closed.

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...
On one hand, I agree we shouldn't give up. On the other hand, this guy really is impossible to play well. Either it's useless, or it's game-breaking for a couple of levels and then useless. Even if it had no HD, it wouldn't be any good in an ECL 5+ game, because it doesn't have hands or a mouth or a body or...anything. Well, I guess if it didn't have any HD it could make an OK non-Intelligence caster. There's probably some way to use being very hard to hit and flight to partially compensate for equipment and communication issues.

DeTess

2018-09-29, 09:30 AM

On one hand, I agree we shouldn't give up. On the other hand, this guy really is impossible to play well. Either it's useless, or it's game-breaking for a couple of levels and then useless. Even if it had no HD, it wouldn't be any good in an ECL 5+ game, because it doesn't have hands or a mouth or a body or...anything. Well, I guess if it didn't have any HD it could make an OK non-Intelligence caster. There's probably some way to use being very hard to hit and flight to partially compensate for equipment and communication issues.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the kind of situation -0* is for?

Nifft

2018-09-29, 09:36 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the kind of situation -0* is for?

-0 means "this is below par". For some levels, it is far below par. For others, the fly speed and at-will SLAs are above par. You can't assign -0 in good faith when sometimes it should be +X instead.

* means "DM beware". That's certainly accurate, so you see it in both -0 and --*.

Inevitability

2018-09-29, 09:50 AM

Assigning -0* for now, mostly because it seems to be the only value that properly reflects the strangler's power across all levels.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced the asterisk is in place. Usually it's reserved for abilities that are completely broken (like limitless spawn creation, or free wishes), not for something that is merely overpowered.

Perhaps a +0/-0 suggestion would be appropriate (since those are the same mechanics-wise, it wouldn't quite be two separate ratings), with a note to DMs and players that the strangler becomes useless around ECL 5?

Zaq

2018-09-29, 10:29 AM

The * isn’t for the LS being overpowered. In this case, it’s the same * as the dryad or any other location-bound critter: “GM beware, because one or more aspects of this monster (in this case, extraordinarily limited ability to interact with the world) will make it extremely hard to fit into a campaign.”

javcs

2018-09-29, 11:30 AM

-0 means "this is below par". For some levels, it is far below par. For others, the fly speed and at-will SLAs are above par. You can't assign -0 in good faith when sometimes it should be +X instead.

* means "DM beware". That's certainly accurate, so you see it in both -0 and --*.

It is only above par in terms of its combat ability for those three levels. And only against things that aren't RHD inflated out of reach or outright immune to its abilities. Which is going to cover a lot of things.
It still lacks the ability to speak and hands.

Edit: It is still pretty useless at the handful of levels where it is still capable of contributing in some combats. I think it's still a -0* at those few levels.

Nifft

2018-09-29, 11:54 AM

It is only above par in terms of its combat ability for those three levels.

Nah, it's got a fly speed, which is significant in both combat and as utility.

It's also got a +12 Hide check at 2 HD, with Darkvision and +8 Spot -- with immunity to tripwires & pressure plates (thanks to the fly speed) it's an above-average scout.

The +4 Search would be a lot more appealing without the Int penalty. I'm going to ignore that bonus.

It can carry things by wrapping around them, with sufficient grip to strangle a humanoid to death. It's probably not going to carry much regularly, but it can pick things up and fly them around -- up to whatever 5 Str permits, which seems to be ~16 lbs as a light load.

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)

javcs

2018-09-29, 12:06 PM

Nah, it's got a fly speed, which is significant in both combat and as utility.

It's also got a +12 Hide check at 2 HD, with Darkvision and +8 Spot -- with immunity to tripwires & pressure plates (thanks to the fly speed) it's an above-average scout.

The +4 Search would be a lot more appealing without the Int penalty. I'm going to ignore that bonus.

It can carry things by wrapping around them, with sufficient grip to strangle a humanoid to death. It's probably not going to carry much regularly, but it can pick things up and fly them around -- up to whatever 5 Str permits, which seems to be ~16 lbs as a light load.

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)

You forgot it is size Tiny - that's a x1/2 modifier on carrying limits. 8lb or less is the light load limit.

My point is, even when it's at its best, it still has major downsides, crippling even, and that level is far too low to reliably get any means of compensating for any of them, much less all of them.
I think that it's got enough downsides that it never crosses over into +0* territory, though there are a few levels where it's not as bad a -0*.

It could perhaps work as a familiar. But not as a PC. IMO.

Nifft

2018-09-29, 12:12 PM

You forgot it is size Tiny - that's a x1/2 modifier on carrying limits. 8lb or less is the light load limit. You forgot that Light load isn't the same as carry limit. But thanks for the size reminder.

My point is, even when it's at its best, it still has major downsides, crippling even, and that level is far too low to reliably get any means of compensating for any of them, much less all of them.
I think that it's got enough downsides that it never crosses over into +0* territory, though there are a few levels where it's not as bad a -0*.

It could perhaps work as a familiar. But not as a PC. IMO. Sounds like we're only in disagreement about why it's inappropriate as a PC -- nobody seems to think that it's appropriate, not at any level range.

Amidus Drexel

2018-09-29, 02:06 PM

You forgot that Light load isn't the same as carry limit. But thanks for the size reminder.

Actually, you can only fly if you're carrying a light load (or less, I suppose). It's functionally a carry limit for fliers. Still 8lbs isn't horrible, since Tiny gear is also lighter, though I won't argue it's good for the strangler either.

Luccan

2018-09-29, 03:03 PM

zergling.exe

2018-09-29, 03:09 PM

Actually, you can only fly if you're carrying a light load (or less, I suppose). It's functionally a carry limit for fliers. Still 8lbs isn't horrible, since Tiny gear is also lighter, though I won't argue it's good for the strangler either.

I want to say that magical flight is exempt from the light load limit, but I'm having trouble finding a general rule for it. I know that the fly spell makes an exception for it, You only have 40 ft fly speed in medium+ armor or loads. Finding this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8965135&postcount=6) post from Darrin 8 years ago, there is no real consistency for flight rules, just ones we like to make up.

There's a problem with the rules for flying. The rules say you can move at your indicated flight speed if you're carrying a light load. The rules never explicitly state what happens if you are not carrying a light load. It's not entirely clear if you move at a reduced rate (at the speed you would normally move while encumbered) or if you just drop out of the sky as soon as you go over your carrying limit.

Most of the methods for gaining flight state somewhere whether or not you can fly while encumbered and at what speed. At least, most of the fly spells do. Dragonborn of Bahumat or Improved Dragon Wings (RotD) state that you can't fly with a medium/heavy load, but make no mention of armor. Outsider Wings (RoF) let you fly with a medium/heavy load, but at a reduced speed. A creature with a flight speed usually states under the ability description under what conditions and speeds they can fly. There isn't a heckuva lot of consistency to any of it.

If you gained flight via some method that doesn't explicitly state what happens when you fly with a medium/heavy load... there is *nothing* in the SRD/rules that states what happens. It's a DM call.

javcs

2018-09-29, 05:00 PM

By this logic, anything with RHD without scaling abilities (like racial casting) should not get LA. Which doesn't seem to fit with previous threads, considering things like Troll got LA.

RHD, as a general rule, are inferior to class levels.
Some RHD are better than others. As for Outsider RHD, they're basically on par with a level in monk with +1/4 BAB, +2 skillpoints, and no abilities or restrictions.
What matters are the other abilities and features a creature has.
The best RHD are generally considered to be Dragon and Outsider, but by themselves, they're on the line between T5 and T6 (everything else is T6 or worse).

Trolls have a relatively modest number of RHD, a solid set of bruiser-oriented racial +numbers, and Regeneration.
Regeneration basically never goes out of style.

Some abilities don't need to scale to remain valuable at higher levels.

Lumi are, IMO, something of an edge case - they're worth their 2 RHD, so at least a +0 ... and then the question is, are they really worth the loss of another class level to LA over the life of a build.
And that's a judgement call. I'd say they aren't worth the +1 LA over 20 levels, but others disagree.
On the other hand, if they had 3 RHD instead of 2 RHD ... I think they'd probably be considered an okay +0.
That is, IMO, Lumi aren't quite worth the loss of the third class level to LA, but probably would be worth loosing that third class level to RHD.

Lans

2018-09-29, 07:04 PM

RHD, as a general rule, are inferior to class levels.
Some RHD are better than others. As for Outsider RHD, they're basically on par with a level in monk with +1/4 BAB, +2 skillpoints, and no abilities or restrictions.
What matters are the other abilities and features a creature has.
The best RHD are generally considered to be Dragon and Outsider, but by themselves, they're on the line between T5 and T6 (everything else is T6 or worse).
.

I think they are a bit better than that. The high end of tier 6 is going to be maybe the soulknife, expert and warrior and these HD are worth more than that. In fact I think 2 levels of these is better than any 2 levels of fighter past the first

javcs

2018-09-29, 07:34 PM

I think they are a bit better than that. The high end of tier 6 is going to be maybe the soulknife, expert and warrior and these HD are worth more than that. In fact I think 2 levels of these is better than any 2 levels of fighter past the first

They're still lower T5, at best, on their own. They give you no abilities, just numbers, and that's only going to go so far.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-09-29, 08:12 PM

RHD power also depends on class skills; Lumi have an okay list (8 skills, Diplomacy/Listen/Spot), Lurking Stranglers have a bad list (4 skills, Hide/Listen/Spot). Even though Lumi have as many skill points as a rogue, they are probably worse off than a bard in terms of what they can get with those points.

Lans

2018-09-30, 01:22 AM

They're still lower T5, at best, on their own. They give you no abilities, just numbers, and that's only going to go so far.
What classes do you consider mid tier 5? I think outsider and dragon HD are about as good as fighters and OA samurai and if you consider then to be low tier 5 then we may just have a different opionion on what low tier 5 is.

I think tier 4 is a place you can get to with just numbers. Using Barbarian as example, he really can't do anything, he is just a little beefier warrior.

javcs

2018-09-30, 01:57 AM

What classes do you consider mid tier 5? I think outsider and dragon HD are about as good as fighters and OA samurai and if you consider then to be low tier 5 then we may just have a different opionion on what low tier 5 is.

I think tier 4 is a place you can get to with just numbers. Using Barbarian as example, he really can't do anything, he is just a little beefier warrior.

To be honest, for T5, I generally don't care enough to work out where various classes sit in it relative to one another. They're bad, and I'm not going to bother with using them unless I'm creating a fix or employing them for purely thematic reasons in a situation where their suckitude doesn't matter. Or, I suppose, I might use fighter for part of a gestalt generic NPC if I'm feeling lazy or uninspired.

At any rate ... Outsider RHD are like monk levels with +1/4 BAB and +2 skill points per level, but no abilities, but also no monk restrictions. Oh, and Outsider RHD will usually have inferior class skills.
Dragon RHD have +2-4 HP and +1/4 BAB per level, but no abilities and no monk restrictions. And, again, usually inferior class skills.

In addition ... there are all the class variants, ACFs, and hybridization/multiclass options available to actual class levels.

Aniikinis

2018-09-30, 05:46 AM

Lacking limbs, a mouth, a body (and item slots and chakras), and hands, along with the ability to not really use any tools or communicate effectively unless it goes telepath but even then good luck. With two eye rays that scale as badly as a cliff, all around vision, and a suffocate attack that is only useful if there is some way to possibly make absolutely sure you can hit with it and not die in the next round. Oh and also 2 aberration HD, yuck.

It's looking like a -0* to me.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-09-30, 02:16 PM

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)
I'd let them (and other characters) learn a "sign language".

And yeah, Lurking Stranglers are pretty crippled in nearly every way. But they have one ability which can potentially trivialize the types of challenges which form the core of a typical D&D game, and I'm not sure a * gets across how this -0 is different than a normal bodily-challenged monster. Hence my suggestion of -0⚠️, even though that's not really a thing.

OgresAreCute

2018-09-30, 02:21 PM

Inevitability

2018-10-01, 08:15 AM

Mastodon

https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1452/80/1452806478670.jpg

Take an elephant, increase its stats by a tiny bit and its HD by four, and you got a mastodon. Cool as these guys may be, trampling and stomping just don't cut it at ECL 15: easy -0.

Elkad

2018-10-01, 08:38 AM

Mastodon

At least it has one hand - so it's less bad than most animals. But -0 is still mandatory.

Zaq

2018-10-01, 09:02 AM

HOW many RHD?

-0. Next!

Aniikinis

2018-10-01, 09:12 AM

Not worth much at all, plus it could have been a druid by that point. Pass.

-0 LA.

javcs

2018-10-01, 10:06 AM

Ah, an easy one, where the only real disagreements will be over how much to laugh at it and how much to laugh at someone wanting to play it.

LA -0.

Aniikinis

2018-10-01, 10:20 AM

Ah, an easy one, where the only real disagreements will be over how much to laugh at it and how much to laugh at someone wanting to play it.

Laugh at me all you want, but I will play this. ...As a 15th level druid for a joke or as an awakened mammoth so that I could screw with npcs.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-01, 10:27 AM

Mastodon: 15 Animal RHD and no interesting features = hard pass. LA -0 and moving on.

javcs

2018-10-01, 10:37 AM

Laugh at me all you want, but I will play this. ...As a 15th level druid for a joke or as an awakened mammoth so that I could screw with npcs.

I suppose I should have excluded using it as a joke.
But as a joke, we'd still be laughing (hopefully), if for different reasons than somebody wanting to play it for real/ not as a joke.

Aniikinis

2018-10-01, 11:20 AM

But as a joke, we'd still be laughing (hopefully), if for different reasons than somebody wanting to play it for real/ not as a joke.

Good point there.

liquidformat

2018-10-01, 12:08 PM

Some creatures just really aren't meant to be rated. Here's my suggested rating for it:

https://coubsecure-s.akamaihd.net/get/b134/p/coub/simple/cw_timeline_pic/9baa63fa9f3/a320909507cdfa2f92461/big_1512006561_image.jpg

More seriously, I don't think there's any real way using just +, -, digits and asterisks to properly convey when, how and how much this thing sucks. We'll just have to slap on a "good enough" rating and then hope either a) no one wants to play this thing or b) they read the thread first before playing it.

That is why we have the rating linked to an entire page about the creature... * was meant as read about this creature it has issues that must be addressed.

In this case with all the issues the Lurking Strangler has even at the two to four levels it is relevant it still sucks. All it has to contribute to a party is its save or loose abilities it has nothing else.

Mammoth is pretty safely -0, they have too much rhd bloat to be in any way relevant.

Celestia

2018-10-01, 12:14 PM

At least mastadon is a cool name.

Nifft

2018-10-01, 12:15 PM

15 RHD? Nah.

One hand is sufficient for one thumbs down.

Verdict: LA -0, now we know why these are extinct in real life, nobody wanted to play one.

Celestia

2018-10-01, 12:21 PM

15 RHD? Nah.

One hand is sufficient for one thumbs down.

Verdict: LA -0, now we know why these are extinct in real life, nobody wanted to play one.
But then why are kobolds extinct?

No brains

2018-10-01, 12:22 PM

At least mastadon is a cool name.

Naw, man. "boob-tooth" is a totally METAL name. :smalltongue: Wikipedia Mastodon for band and etymology.

Solidly -0. If it had fewer HD, an actually prehensile trunk, and counted as mounted for wielding a lance, that could be fun.

liquidformat

2018-10-01, 12:36 PM

But then why are kobolds extinct?

Because we have no dragons so they can't abuse dragonwrought...

Nifft

2018-10-01, 12:39 PM

But then why are kobolds extinct? Kobolds aren't extinct, they're ascended.

Because we have no dragons so they can't abuse dragonwrought... Somewhere a kobold clicks her ruby-scaled heels together and realizes the true dragon was inside her heart all along.

Kobolds are the dragons who wrought themselves.

Thurbane

2018-10-01, 04:40 PM

I concur with LA -0 for both the eyes without a face and hairy elephant...

Covenant12

2018-10-01, 06:05 PM

-0* for the eyes. Below +0 consistently and warning the DM of many issues if you try anyway.

-0 for mastadon. That many bad rhd need something compelling, and it isn't close.

Inevitability

2018-10-02, 05:22 AM

Not worth much at all, plus it could have been a druid by that point. Pass.

-0 LA.

At level 17 you could play a mastodon with two class levels, or you could play a druid who turns into a mastodon, has a mastodon for a pet, and has an elephant as a secondary pet, and also happens to have 9th-level spells.

Lapak

2018-10-02, 07:04 AM

At level 17 you could play a mastodon with two class levels, or you could play a druid who turns into a mastodon, has a mastodon for a pet, and has an elephant as a secondary pet, and also happens to have 9th-level spells.
Now I want to run a party made entirely of Awakened animals who are valid wildshape forms who are all taking Druid levels.

I can't decide if it would be more amusing to refluff Wildshape so that druids with an animal base form can take a humanoid shape with it, it just leave it as-is and have the whole party constantly mimicking whatever PC's natural shape is best for the given moment. It's a flock of birds! No, a pack of wolves! A herd of mastodons! A nest of snakes!

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-02, 07:49 AM

It's a bird! It's a snake! No, it's Druid-Man!

danielxcutter

2018-10-02, 09:27 AM

Now I want to run a party made entirely of Awakened animals who are valid wildshape forms who are all taking Druid levels.

I can't decide if it would be more amusing to refluff Wildshape so that druids with an animal base form can take a humanoid shape with it, it just leave it as-is and have the whole party constantly mimicking whatever PC's natural shape is best for the given moment. It's a flock of birds! No, a pack of wolves! A herd of mastodons! A nest of snakes!

I think the Fangshields Druid ACF does that?

liquidformat

2018-10-02, 10:20 AM

I think the Fangshields Druid ACF does that?

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

Blue Jay

2018-10-02, 11:12 AM

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

I think the hands should grow at the end of its trunk, so it would look like an Opabinia:
http://eweb.furman.edu/~wworthen/bio440/evolweb/cambrian/opabinia.jpg

Thurbane

2018-10-02, 04:42 PM

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

You can grow hands at level 5, and assume Humanoid Wild Shape at level 7. Quite handy, really.

You can also chose to lose spontaneous SNA for spontaneous Cures at level 4, if you really want to.

liquidformat

2018-10-04, 08:25 AM

You can grow hands at level 5, and assume Humanoid Wild Shape at level 7. Quite handy, really.

You can also chose to lose spontaneous SNA for spontaneous Cures at level 4, if you really want to.

I have always found humanoid form to be the most useless in terms of changing into it, especially if you don't get any of the abilities. Though getting two hands seems reasonably strong that at least adds in more attacks.

On a side note a gestalt beholder with arms growing out the side of its head is pretty comical.

javcs

2018-10-04, 10:40 AM

I have always found humanoid form to be the most useless in terms of changing into it, especially if you don't get any of the abilities. Though getting two hands seems reasonably strong that at least adds in more attacks.

On a side note a gestalt beholder with arms growing out the side of its head is pretty comical.

The strengths of humanoid form include hands, opposable thumbs, and being able to (nominally) peaceably interact with the dominant Material Plane civilizations without the various issues associated with openly being a "monster".
Plus, it's a lot easier to utilize the gear of humanoid opponents.

Inevitability

2018-10-04, 03:55 PM

Mindshredder

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/56/f7/ab/56f7ab2f23051559cf81e872fd95a0dc.jpg

Yet Another Funky Aberration: this time with pseudo-mindsight and a wacky life cycle, not to mention a weird name.

Mindshredder Larva

As always, the youngest stages of a creature's life cycle are the most playable (which sadly isn't saying much). Larva have 2 RHD, okay stats (+4 con, +2 wis and dex, -4 cha and int), small size, two points of natural armor, and a short-range (20 ft.) mindsight-like ability that doesn't work on dumb things. Perhaps the most interesting part are their two natural tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way), that deal 1d6 damage and a point of wisdom damage. I could see it being interesting for, idk, a rogue who doesn't mind being useless out of combat? Obvious -0 LA, even though it's got low RHD.

If a mindshredder larva somehow survives for long enough to deal 20 points of wisdom damage, it can (but, if controlled by a smart player, won't) build a cocoon and transform into a...

Mindshredder Warrior

Large size and 21 strength, so at least it's a decent beatstick now. Or at least it would be, if it didn't have 7 aberration RHD. Apart from the mediocre chassis increases, the warrior has twice(!!!!!!11!!!!) the range on its Thought Sense, the ability to make huge jumps as a move action (which would be kinda neat if Sudden Leap hadn't become available six levels earlier as a swift action instead), and an increase on the wisdom damage from 1 to 1d2 points per attack. It's also got mediocre claws instead of mediocre tentacles now. Another -0 LA.

Mindshredder Zenthal

Zenthal, as in 'Zenthal the other party members an apology for playing this' (this is how funny I am at 11 PM, if people were wondering).

Medium size, 13 RHD and 8 strength remove all melee ability the warrior could at least pretend to have. But instead, it gets the Mighty Magicks of... 3/day Confusion, 3/day Hypnotic Pattern, and a +4 shield bonus to AC (of course, natural armor has gone down compared to the warrior too).

Also, the natural weapons are back to tentacles which deal a whole 1d4 wisdom damage now. Yeah, that's going to win fights. -0 LA.

DeTess

2018-10-04, 04:01 PM

I think you've got a typo there saying the larvae get to do 1d6 wisdom damage. Assuming that's meant to be 1 point of wisdom damage, I'd say they're all -0 LA.

Edit: either you fixed it really quickly, or I just misread.

Thurbane

2018-10-04, 04:55 PM

No arguments here, LA -0 all around.

Are these the ones that are described as the animals of the Mind Flayer realm, or am I thinking of something else? AFB right now...

Nifft

2018-10-04, 05:07 PM

Mindshredder Larva

As always, the youngest stages of a creature's life cycle are the most playable (which sadly isn't saying much). Larva have 2 RHD, okay stats (+4 con, +2 wis and dex, -4 cha and int), small size, two points of natural armor, and a short-range (20 ft.) mindsight-like ability that doesn't work on dumb things. Perhaps the most interesting part are their two natural tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way), that deal 1d6 damage and a point of wisdom damage. I could see it being interesting for, idk, a rogue who doesn't mind being useless out of combat? Obvious -0 LA, even though it's got low RHD.

With only 2 RHD it's difficult to say that they're useless... but I can't see much use for 'em.

Anyway, what did you base this on?

tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way)

There's not much to support this assertion, is there?

Oh, or are you saying that they don't use their tentacle attacks because they have stubby little fingers on their limbs, and those are obviously superior as manipulators?

So they don't put rings on their tentacles, they wear them on the fingers of their stubby forelimbs.

Zaq

2018-10-04, 05:09 PM

Huh. Somehow I’d thought that someone would put forth an argument for the babby ones being +0.

I don’t intend to be such a person, of course. I like having thumbs and I don’t like losing class levels, especially for abilities that don’t scale and don’t open up new avenues of optimization. But we usually get a few defenders of this stuff with low RHD and okayish stats.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-04, 05:10 PM

Mindshredders: LA -0, -0, and of course -0. Far too many problems to fix, and eating the Aberration RHD is just kicking your build while it is already down.

javcs

2018-10-04, 05:18 PM

No arguments here, LA -0 all around.

Are these the ones that are described as the animals of the Mind Flayer realm, or am I thinking of something else? AFB right now...

Nah, those are the Illithidae? And are in Lords of Madness.

Concur, -0 for all Mindshredder varieties.

javcs

2018-10-04, 05:23 PM

Thurbane

2018-10-04, 05:30 PM

Nah, those are the Illithidae? And are in Lords of Madness.

Ah, yes, I was misremembering. Always get these two lots of beasties mixed up in my memory.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/lom_gallery/88145.jpg

ExLibrisMortis

2018-10-04, 05:41 PM

LA -0 for all. The only use I can find for mindshredder larvae is to play them as a really bad melee beatstick, and then when the campaign has hit its highest level, you cocoon for an extra 5 HD (and hopefully some epic feats). Sort of like a dragon's age-cursing, only much worse.

Celestia

2018-10-04, 05:43 PM

Those stats on the larvae are pretty decent for several classes, especially wisdom casters, but that's the only positive thing I can say about them, and they're still only "pretty decent." Definitely -0 for all.

danielxcutter

2018-10-04, 11:54 PM

LA -0 for all three variants, but I do think there's a bit of optimization potential for the other side of the table - as they're aberrations, they qualify for Rapidstrike and the improved version. Lots of Wisdom drain fun, especially if they decide to do touch attacks instead of regular attacks. Or really, just normal Rapidstrike fun.

Speaking of which, Zenthal are mentioned to advance by class level... which class? The book doesn't say... what caster class would work?

Zaq

2018-10-04, 11:55 PM

The babies have net +0 stats. +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Int, -4 Cha.
Oh, and they don't talk.

Yeah. Okayish stats. They don’t have anything at 2 (read: -8) or whatever that bring the average below 0. We’ve seen examples to the contrary.

Aniikinis

2018-10-05, 12:44 AM

Not worth reviewing too in depth imo. -0 for the lot of them, though the larva almost hits +0. Almost.

liquidformat

2018-10-05, 08:27 AM

the -0 is strong in these ones....

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-05, 10:26 AM

The strengths of humanoid form include hands, opposable thumbs, and being able to (nominally) peaceably interact with the dominant Material Plane civilizations without the various issues associated with openly being a "monster".
Plus, it's a lot easier to utilize the gear of humanoid opponents.
I'm pretty sure the ability in question makes you an obvious half-person, half-critter. But the other perks make the ability to wild shape into human form worth considering.

Yet Another Funky Aberration: this time with pseudo-mindsight and a wacky life cycle, not to mention a weird name.
They do bad stuff to minds, and "mind flayer" was already taken. Whaddya want, some weird proper noun that nobody'll remember? I'm glad they decided not to give it a name like—

Zenthal
—well never mind. Seriously, "zenthal"? That sounds like a generic fantasy name for a generic fantasy thing. In fact, a quick Google search reveals two other generic fantasy things with that name (a world and a WoW character)...on the first page.

(said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way)
Thanks for trying to head that debate off.

There's not much to support this assertion, is there?
Oh, or are you saying that they don't use their tentacle attacks because they have stubby little fingers on their limbs, and those are obviously superior as manipulators?
Shame it didn't work, though.
(Also, there is something to support the assertion. Look at the picture. Look at how thick the tentacles are, and how they don't taper down to a more dextrous-looking point the way that e.g. octopus tentacles do. Speaking of which, they don't even seem to have a good gripping surface; it's all smooth and convex. And thicker than any non-custom-made tool handle, for that matter.)

So they don't put rings on their tentacles, they wear them on the fingers of their stubby forelimbs.
Dude, he didn't even mention rings. In what world are rings defined as tools?

Speaking of which, Zenthal are mentioned to advance by class level... which class? The book doesn't say... what caster class would work?
That's normal. You see, intelligent creatures can advance in any class they qualify for, just like core races, because the writers are trying to at least pretend they consider intelligent monsters to be people on par with said races.

Celestia

2018-10-05, 11:30 AM

—well never mind. Seriously, "zenthal"? That sounds like a generic fantasy name for a generic fantasy thing. In fact, a quick Google search reveals two other generic fantasy things with that name (a world and a WoW character)...on the first page.
Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

Nifft

2018-10-05, 11:41 AM

Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

Zenthal™ the pill with Omm-ph.

Ask your doctor if enlightenment is right for you.

Warning: side effects may include empathy, dharmarhea, and internal peace. If reincarnation persists for more than 4 cycles, consult your guru.

Zaq

2018-10-05, 11:43 PM

Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

And since basically all prescription drug names (especially psychiatric ones) are plausible Pokémon names, now we're talking about Pokémon. I'm okay with "Zenthal" being a Pokémon. I'm getting like a Dark/Ground vibe, maybe? Or inexplicably Ice, for some reason. Possibly a legendary, but not necessarily.

Covenant12

2018-10-06, 01:56 PM

The baby ones aren't totally hopeless at +0, just limited and fairly underpowered. Then you look at aberration hd and its a firm -0. Others are quite a bit worse.

-0 for all three for short version.

Inevitability

2018-10-07, 02:59 AM

Mivilorn

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/f/f3/Mivilorn.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110701171701

Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.

Also, these beasties are terrible. 24 RHD wouldn't be great even if it was Outsider, but it's Magical Beast instead of that. Stats are high, but not high compared to what a typical Epic creature gives. One Bite (4d6 with 19-20 crit range and some slight acid) which is probably best used for a Mouthpick weapon. SR 17 is hardly relevant at the levels where these monsters are meant to be faced, let alone ECL 24.

A problem is that this bite is specifically required for Improved Grab and Charging Bite (swallow whole by any other name), which means that those can't be used while using a weapon. It's possible to get around that issue, but the abilities themselves aren't great at level 24.

The only redeeming factor here is the free action breath weapon, which I suppose could be interesting if combined with metabreath feats. Maybe.

-0 LA: outclassed in basically every way by something else.

Elite Demon War Mount

Six more RHD? Sure, why not. The only thing worth noting is that it's now proficient with armor. -0 here as well.

unseenmage

2018-10-07, 03:45 AM

Minus zero all around. These things are even bad at being bad monsters.

javcs

2018-10-07, 05:32 AM

Minus zero all around. These things are even bad at being bad monsters.

To be fair, the base Mivilorn is CR 11. It's nowhere near as bad at that level. Relatively speaking.

And the war mount version trades -2 Dex for +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis. And is CR 16.

They're possibly useful as some sort of minion, maybe as a higher level mount type critter, but they are firmly in the LA -0 range as PCs.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-10-07, 09:02 AM

They're possibly useful as some sort of minion, maybe as a higher level mount type critter, but they are firmly in the LA -0 range as PCs.
Absolutely, for those mount abilities that run off of CR instead of HD, these are pretty good, especially if you can psyref the epic feats to suit your build.

For PCs, a clear -0 for both.

Covenant12

2018-10-07, 10:21 AM

I agree with the potential as an interesting BBEG minion/mount at their CR. At their RHD though?

LA: -0 for both, by a long ways.

Zancloufer

2018-10-07, 11:03 AM

Nifft

2018-10-07, 11:24 AM

[CENTER]Mivilorn

Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines. WotC just wants us to know that most dogs go to Hell.

From a PC perspective, these bad dogs are truly bad. LA -0 / -0 respectively.

Aniikinis

2018-10-07, 11:45 AM

-0 for both. Useful as a mount, but not a PC.

Blue Jay

2018-10-07, 11:52 AM

Epic amount of HD is pretty much unplayable.

I think a big issue that this thread has is the whole 1 RHD = 1 ECL. While you can get some wonky CRs (usually with "non-associated class levels") the 3.5 team wasn't too bad on CR balance overall. Most RHD only cost 0.25 CR per HD meaning a pile of bad HD does not make a threatening monster. Not sure why they made most RHD so bad and then made Dragon/Outsider almost borked (2:1 ratio for those might almost be OP).

Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.

I did a little bit of this for MM dragons over at Myth-Weavers (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=13686200#post13686200). The idea was to fit the abilities and features of a CR~20 dragon into a 20-level class. I have no idea how well I did, though.

I also made a bunch of Savage progressions using Reassigned LA's for MM monsters (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=439808). No idea how good these are, either.

I'm not very comfortable with the formatting here at the Playground, so I don't really know how to convert them.

-----

Also, mivilorn LA -0 (both types). Could be a good mount, but anyone riding one would look much less silly riding just about anything else: that's a really goofy-looking dog.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-07, 12:14 PM

Mivilorn: LA -0 for both of them. Ick. Not much else to say about 24 RHD with the abilities of 10 RHD.

Zaq

2018-10-07, 12:18 PM

-0 for both. Useful as a mount, but not a PC.

I’m not sure I’d even go that far. You ever try to maneuver a Huge critter around a battlefield? Even if you’re not in an actual dungeon, there’s lots of ways for a battlefield that isn’t basically an open field to be less than accessible to a Huge thing.

Not going to be a problem every single day, but it’s a problem a noticeable amount of the time. Because, you know, mounted combat needed to be harder for some reason.

(I guess that this argument is, to be fair, relatively GM-dependent. But I like complex and full battlefields and tend to request the same when I feel like I have any pull to do so, so that colors my interpretation. No-items-Fox-only-Final-Destination is boring to me!)

But yeah. Trivial -0. I’m basically comfortable saying that anything (yeah, ANYTHING) that starts in Epic and doesn’t have the ability to immediately qualify for Epic spellcasting (or some equivalent—maybe, MAYBE divine ranks) is -0.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-07, 12:18 PM

Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.
You forgot winter wolves and legally-distinct-from-wargs.

Not sure why they made most RHD so bad and then made Dragon/Outsider almost borked (2:1 ratio for those might almost be OP).
Because dragons are awesome. And angels, demons, slaadi, etc are pretty impressive, too, but they have planar aid for that.

Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
Also more broken monsters. As WotC has repeatedly (and, for once, correctly) noted, the factors which make a monster capable of ruining a player's day are not the same as those which make a player ruin a DM's day. A 1/day ability and an at-will ability aren't much different for CR, but it can make a big difference for ECL. (To say nothing of things like flight or not having hands, which are barely more than flavor for most monster encounters but drastically change how a PC plays.)

WotC just wants us to know that most dogs go to Hell.
You take that back.
But seriously, with the ratio of evil monsters to good, it's no wonder the Balance is constantly tipping sinister.

unseenmage

2018-10-07, 02:30 PM

...

Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
Pathfinder uses CR as ECL. (http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPCs.html)

We use it for our games. Usually my monster characters are weaker overall. Though the campaign where another player played a ghoul showcased the other side of that coin.

Even then though their superpowers and extra hp didn't scale well against the truly high level threats late game.

Thurbane

2018-10-07, 04:21 PM

24RHD wihtout some impressive innate casting or equally game changing ability is pretty much an automatic LA -0 from me.

Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.

You forgot winter wolves and legally-distinct-from-wargs.

There's also charnel hound, gravehound, guulvorg, shadow mastiffs, thrym hound, void hounds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031219a) and vorr.

...and I'm almost sure there's more lurking out there.

Flickerdart

2018-10-07, 06:33 PM

Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.

If you wanted to go hard on the "ECL is less than HD" thing without breaking the rules of the game, you could do something like Turn Resistance but for beef: for the purposes of effects that care about hit dice, this monster has +X hit dice, and +X to these skills, +X hit points, X feats, and so on. But it would need massive tweaking to work and I'm not sure it's worth it.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-09, 05:53 PM

javcs

2018-10-09, 06:32 PM

Inevitability

2018-10-10, 05:03 AM

Necronaut

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKDxZDeUIAEiqbR.jpg

Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:

Gargantuan Undead (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)

Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss

Alignment: Always chaotic evil

Necronauts are created by demons

A necronaut speaks Infernal and rarely bothers to learn other languages.

Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.

Anyways, other than that the necronaut is a fairly uninteresting monster. It has a fairly unoriginal 'eat corpse to get HP back' ability, Trample, Unholy Toughness, and a weird vulnerability to undead-creating spells, all of which is made meaningless by 32 undead RHD. -0 LA unless this somehow loses a few dozen hit dice.

also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!

Inevitability

2018-10-10, 05:11 AM

Needletooth Swarm

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/55/33/7f55331725f99ebc7c91527541cb723e.jpg

Because life is pain and RHD plentiful, have another update!

It's a swarm, it's tiny (which is the worst size a swarm can have), it consists of animals, and it's got eleven RHD. Its sole interesting ability is Wounding, which is hilariously insignificant at this level.

Seriously though: just play a bat swarm and get basically the same package with flight, immunity to weapon damage, blindsense, and eight less RHD.

Obvious -0, Jurassic Park II reference value aside.

OgresAreCute

2018-10-10, 05:24 AM

Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.

Making RHD = CR without reducing other stats or abilities would be a good starting point for many creatures probably.

And yeah both the Bone-Cone and the Feral Chicken Gang are pretty much unplayably bad. -0 for both.

Mike Miller

2018-10-10, 05:26 AM

Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:
(Quotes)

Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.

That made me laugh. And facepalm.

Both -0

Aniikinis

2018-10-10, 08:10 AM

These both suck. -0.

Zaq

2018-10-10, 08:59 AM

I recall the needletooth swarm having a reputation as being OP/imbalanced in either 4e or 5e, but that obviously isn’t because they made for OP 3.5 PCs.

Consider the necronaut’s picture for a moment. See how it’s grasping a humanoid, who appears to be itty-bitty in comparison? Consider the size of said humanoid’s head and the skull it must contain, then consider the size of the skull-shaped objects that appear to make up the necronaut’s body. The skull-shaped objects appear to mostly be made up of roughly human-skull-shaped skulls, nothing super-obviously fiendish or aberrant or so on.

I’m forced to conclude that necronauts are made entirely by running through endless iterations of the “Against the Giants” module.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-10, 09:04 AM

Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:

Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.
No, necronauts are just a-holes. They spend all their time fighting in the Nine Hells, and tell their overlords that if they want to go to Hell, they should speak the language.

also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!
It's out-of-genre. Now, an undead sailor, or a sailor on the Underworld's rivers...

Celestia

2018-10-10, 09:14 AM

No, necronauts are just a-holes. They spend all their time fighting in the Nine Hells, and tell their overlords that if they want to go to Hell, they should speak the language.

It's out-of-genre. Now, an undead sailor, or a sailor on the Underworld's rivers...
A sailor could have worked. If I'm not making stuff up, I believe that "astronaut" is specifically a corruption of "Argonaut."

Nifft

2018-10-10, 09:35 AM

Yeah these aren't really worth much discussion. LA -0, next.

also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!

Atropus (the undead visitor moon) from Elder Evils would have been the perfect setting for undead astronauts.

I mean you literally go into space to visit an airless moon for the final confrontation.

Wasted opportunity indeed.

liquidformat

2018-10-10, 09:35 AM

Necronauts remind me of the sacrificial bone alters from Warlock in the world of wizards (really cool book for anyone that wants to check it out) in which they were platforms to spawn evil demon undead. But ya that thing is bad unless you are using it as your alter for performing necromancy in which case having an alter that can kill things is kind of cool. Also sacrifices and similar stuff is to complicated and involved for your average demon spawn of the abyss so I am ok with the language... -0 for it anyway.

I think the needletooth could be a cool familiar if they stat'ed up a single one especially for a more tribal caster, but the swarm is horrabad.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-10-10, 09:53 AM

A sailor could have worked. If I'm not making stuff up, I believe that "astronaut" is specifically a corruption of "Argonaut."
It's not. From Ancient Greek, "astron" (ἄστρον) is "star" and "nautes" (ναύτης) means "sailor"--it's a compound after the pattern of aquanaut and aeronaut (and of course, Argonaut follows the same pattern).

I think the excerpts from the necronaut's description say enough: LA -0. And the same for the needletooths. I started thinking that necronauts might be up there as deserving the highest negative LA... but then I thought of the tarrasque.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-10, 10:08 AM

LA -0 for both of these. blech

unseenmage

2018-10-10, 11:33 AM

These both suck. -0.

Agreeing. Heartily. -0 for both.

javcs

2018-10-10, 01:13 PM

Concur, -0 for the both of them.

The Night Twist is next, and looks to be at least a little more interesting to discuss.

Random Sanity

2018-10-10, 01:42 PM

The necronaut looks like something from a horror-themed tower defense game.

And that's about the only use I can see for either monster. -0/-0

Thurbane

2018-10-10, 03:46 PM

Completely agree LA -0 in both cases.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-10, 04:08 PM

It's not. From Ancient Greek, "astron" (ἄστρον) is "star" and "nautes" (ναύτης) means "sailor"--it's a compound after the pattern of aquanaut and aeronaut (and of course, Argonaut follows the same pattern).
Aside from the fact that they were sailing using the Argo, not through it.

Caelestion

2018-10-10, 04:33 PM

And the fact that the Greek roots involved didn't use prepositions, you mean?

Inevitability

2018-10-14, 02:25 AM

Night Twist

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8scl1wrdfys6a1IlRWjHfBPR373HDujWgInw8ouQ_gebX6Tal6 xiCnmvo2iNmaRpIXd4qs39zIdMhf7BqR3BYWbocG60J6kJo_SI lIA=s0-d

15 RHD: so I'm kind of expecting this to be crap already. Let's see about that.

Aside from the plant HD, the twist has a considerable amount of strength, some natural armor, 10 ft. movement, DR 10/slashing, fire vulnerability, and three 2d8 slams (which the book has the audacity to call 'powerful').

The special abilities are a mixed bag. Death Curse is basically useless because by the time it has effect you're not playing a night twist anymore (the effect itself is pretty cool, though). Unholy Grace is a good ability that's only made better by +10 racial charisma.

Despair Song is quite interesting, being a large-range Crushing Despair effect that also forces affected creatures to move closer. Sadly, it's kind of limited by apparently not sparing allies, being limited in when it can be used, and not preventing affected foes from just attacking you once they've gotten to you.

Finally there's Wind Blast (free-action all-around Gust of Wind) which seems to have some utility in preventing medium creatures from approaching you, at least. Anything bigger than that can completely ignore the effect, though.

SLAs are okay. 3/day Deeper Darkness, Entangle, Blight, Fear, and Phantasmal Killer aren't the worst of spells, though there are a lot of creatures immune to all but the first two.

In the end, the night twist simply doesn't have enough features to make up for its large number of RHD. -0 LA, with a very slight tendency to +0.

Aniikinis

2018-10-14, 08:50 AM

I wish this was good. I'd love to play a dirgesinger bard with this thing, but the RHD just doesn't let you do much at all even with the abilities granted. -0 but it had potential.

danielxcutter

2018-10-14, 09:08 AM

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

Zaq

2018-10-14, 09:50 AM

I agree with the “cool monster, poor PC” verdict. 15 RHD without racial casting just isn’t gonna do it.

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

Look up the old “King of Smack” build (and its offshoots).

Covenant12

2018-10-14, 11:28 AM

Kinda thinking I'm going to conclude -0, but there is potential here.

CR 12, RHD 15, caster level 10 isn't good. Anything with SR means this thing is a beatstick only, and will need work to be effective at that. Entangle is effective, but that's a 1st level spell (but a very good one) in a 15th level party.

Large with 20' innate reach, can afford a fly item to ignore 10' move speed, boost Cha a bit and it has impressive AC, hps, and saves. (Yes, I'm aware "I'll be the last to die!" does not a T3 make.)

Could dip barbarian and crusader for pounce, thicket of blades, stand still or knockdown, mage slayer. Eww, combat reflexes with base 6 dex. Rapidstrike could help dps but with so few features feats are precious.

Sorry I think its a bit short. Would do fine in T4 party as the beatstick, and isn't unplayable at +0 for T3 but isn't really there. Staying -0, but I'll listen to people who do better at optimizing it than I can.

javcs

2018-10-14, 11:35 AM

Concur, -0 that with a little more could make it to +0.

Far more interesting as a monster than as a PC.

Nifft

2018-10-14, 12:14 PM

With fewer HD, those abilities could be really interesting.

But I can't see many ways to contribute in a T3 party at level 16+.

Verdict: LA -0, give me a smaller Dusktwist with 6 RHD please.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-14, 12:16 PM

The Night Twist is LA -0, but is a lot closer than you might expect from 15 Plant RHD. The Natural AC is 1 for 1 to RHD, and the net abilities are net +58, averaging out to slightly less than 4 per RHD, what I consider acceptable. The 10 ft base speed is mostly irrelevant at the point where you would have even a single class level, and Unholy Grace cures a lot of defensive ills. SLAs are mediocre but usable, and the DR is weak but still a net gain. I think people are underestimating the strength of the free action Gust of Wind: sure it cannot affect Large or bigger opponents, but this makes it impossible for medium or smaller opponents to approach you without magical aid from any direction, including flight; for a sphere/hemisphere 240 feet across, that you can maintain indefinitely. If you cannot find a use for that kind of battlefield control at least some of the time, you should be playing a different game. :smalltongue:

As for the Despair Song: errata changes my opinion quite a bit, so I think it is a rather weak bonus most critters pick up by 10 RHD. Nothing of particular import there.

I am inclined to mostly ignore the Despair Song in combat terms, since by the time you are playing an ECL 16+ Night Twist with class levels most CR appropriate opponents are likely to have immunities or a combination of saves, resists and magical aid to make it a footnote in direct combat. I stand by LA -0, but not nearly as weak as it appears at first glance-changing the RHD to Outsider or Dragon alone might be sufficient to put this into LA +0. It only has a couple of standouts, but they are worth a proper appraisal.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-14, 01:57 PM

... and three 2d8 slams (which the book has the audacity to call 'powerful').
A single blow deals more damage than a greatsword, a mule's kick, or falling off the roof of a two-story building. It can unleash one of these blows every other second. By the standards of non-adventurers, that's friggin' powerful!
Shame that it's being compared to adventurers.

Blue Jay

2018-10-14, 02:30 PM

As for the Despair Song: really not sure how to rate it, because it is a low grade magical WMD: once per night, scattering a powerful compulsion across a 5 mile radius per HD of the Night Twist is a little much.

My copy says the radius is 50 ft per HD.

----

I'm going to toe the line and say LA -0 for the night twist.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-14, 02:42 PM

My copy says the radius is 50 ft per HD.

----

I'm going to toe the line and say LA -0 for the night twist.

My printing is August 2004, and the ability clearly states a radius of five miles per HD of the Night Twist. What printing are you reading?

zergling.exe

2018-10-14, 02:50 PM

My printing is August 2004, and the ability clearly states a radius of five miles per HD of the Night Twist. What printing are you reading?

Errata changes it to 50 ft per HD:

Pages 110–111: Night Twist
Remove “Survival +17” from the Skills line of the stat
block.
Also, the range of the night twist’s despair song ability
is 50 feet per HD, not 5 miles per HD.
Changes to the stat block for the ancient night twist:
Advancement: 26–48 HD (Huge)
In the Combat section of the ancient night twist, delete
the sentence: It summons plants to its aid if faced with
superior numbers. The ancient night twist does not have
the ability to summon plants.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-14, 03:02 PM

Errata changes it to 50 ft per HD:

Right just checked the errata-I forgot they actually did fix some things. :smallcool: In that case, I will remove my objection. Still LA -0 either way.

Remuko

2018-10-14, 03:43 PM

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.

Thurbane

2018-10-14, 06:57 PM

unseenmage

2018-10-14, 07:37 PM

Putting aside the RHD (for a moment), this is a pretty solid monster. Decent ability scores, plant immunities, OK-ish special attacks, a handful of SLAs, Cha to saves and AC.

The 15 RHD is the killer through. 5 class level before epic. Your team mates are throwing around 8th level spells.

Less HD, I could see LA +0 (or higher, depending how many RHD), but as is, LA -0 from me.

I concur, a solid -0.

liquidformat

2018-10-14, 10:05 PM

-0 for this guy, though I don't think it is too far from being +0

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-15, 10:15 AM

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.
Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?

MesiDoomstalker

2018-10-15, 10:49 AM

Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.

Lans

2018-10-15, 10:56 AM

javcs

2018-10-15, 10:57 AM

Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?
I can think of no reason that it is, and IMO, it shouldn't be.

On the other hand, I normally just houserule that natural attacks get iteratives.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-15, 11:32 AM

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.
Aren't there at least a couple of feats, prestige classes, etc which give PCs dragon type? And none which give them, say, the animal type?
(And isn't that sort of a stupid reason to add in type restrictions?)

Nifft

2018-10-15, 11:35 AM

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.

Aberrations are the big one in my experience, since there are some solid Aberration PC races.

Celestia

2018-10-15, 11:36 AM

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.
That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job. :smalltongue:

Nifft

2018-10-15, 11:40 AM

That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job. :smalltongue:

Some of the better PC classes gain the service of animal companions. Players will control a character of the Animal type.

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.

Celestia

2018-10-15, 11:44 AM

Some of the better PC classes gain the service of animal companions. Players will control a character of the Animal type.

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.
Theoretically, the DM decides what feats and such that an animal companion gets since it's an NPC not a PC.

Nifft

2018-10-15, 11:49 AM

Theoretically, the DM decides what feats and such that an animal companion gets since it's an NPC not a PC. That's not always true in practice but that doesn't seem to matter.

The animal would be in the player's hands either way, so how would your theory be relevant?

Celestia

2018-10-15, 11:56 AM

That's not always true in practice but that doesn't seem to matter.

The animal would be in the player's hands either way, so how would your theory be relevant?
I'm not sure what your question is. What are you objecting to? I was just stating that players can't be animals, and you seem to have some problem with that?

Nifft

2018-10-15, 12:03 PM

I'm not sure what your question is. What are you objecting to? I was just stating that players can't be animals, and you seem to have some problem with that?

Players are humans (so far as we know).

PCs controlled by players include the Animal Companion class feature, which gives players control of Animal type characters.

Your assertion that players never build nor control Animals is incorrect.

There is no particular question here.

MesiDoomstalker

2018-10-15, 02:45 PM

Aren't there at least a couple of feats, prestige classes, etc which give PCs dragon type? And none which give them, say, the animal type?
(And isn't that sort of a stupid reason to add in type restrictions?)

Absolutely. It's a theory, not a fact but that doesn't change that the designer's were bad at understanding their own game.

That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job. :smalltongue:

I mean, we know the designers didn't know their own game.

Flickerdart

2018-10-15, 07:42 PM

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

What are you talking about? Rapidstrike is mentioned in literally every single handbook for a creature type that can take it.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-16, 09:51 AM

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.
Doesn't "I don't want to have to balance this feat for PC use" seems even more worthy of mockery?

Inevitability

2018-10-16, 02:21 PM

Nycter

https://1d4chan.org/images/6/6b/Nycter.png

Anthropomorphic bats: now with more lore.
...and RHD.

Nycters are small monstrous humanoids with 3 RHD, a weak 1d4 bite, a reasonable fly speed, racial bonuses to dexterity and wisdom (combined with penalties to strength and charisma) and the rather interesting Hunting Cry, an essentially-friendly 30 ft. cone of sonic damage and multiple-round paralysis that can be used every 2d4 rounds.

Obviously, paralysis is a rather useful save-or-lose that can win encounters (especially when it's this big a cone). The creatures that are immune to it are hard to overcome, but a lot of those lose to flight (especially at lower levels when being a nycter is contributing relatively more to the total PC).

In the end, the nycter's rather useful ability, flight, and not-awful chassis are worthy of +0 LA.

ViperMagnum357

2018-10-16, 02:49 PM

Thurbane

2018-10-16, 03:47 PM

I don't think they're quite bad enough for LA -0. You can still hit 9th level spells/maneuvers, and your racial HD come with full BAB, if you're aiming to be a melee type.

Their racial abilities and ability modifierss are underwhelming for 3 RHD, but flight is always nice.

I'd give them a weak LA +0.

DeTess

2018-10-16, 03:58 PM

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined. if LA-0 is only for 'definitely unplayable', this one's definitely a weak LA +0.

If LA -0 is for 'under-powered compared to a similar character with T3 class levels instead of RHD' it's a more difficult case. I think they're just about LA +0, but they're on the very edge. I suspect that going into a con-focused class, such as totemist will also allow their hunting cry to remain relevant for longer. For what it's worth, in a T3-4 game that probably wouldn't go that much past level 10 I'd be fine with playing one of these at LA+0. In a game starting at 15+, and going into epic, I'd pick something else.

liquidformat

2018-10-16, 04:15 PM

Nycter: keep in mind that the Hunting Cry is useless once a creature has successfully saved once, putting it on 24 hour recharge for that particular critter. Apart from that, the 40 ft Fly speed is the standout here, specifically because it is (Ex) and has a maneuverability of good, allowing the Nycter to hover. Not very impressive otherwise: Natural AC is a solid +3 on 3 RHD, which could do worse than monstrous humanoid. Net abilities are a terrible +2, the bite attack and darkvision are not selling anyone, average land speed of 20 for small biped, Sonic Vulnerability, and the decent range on Blindsense is not a selling point when it is the easiest type to foil (auditory). +8 racial skill bonuses dependent on blindsense are a mixed bag as well. To finish up with the Hunting Cry: in addition to having no scaling effects and being useless for 24 hourse versus any target that makes its save, remember it is Mind Affecting, Sonic, and Paralysis, so a lot of things will only be taking minor Sonic damage on a failed save. With a Constitution DC on a race with a net +0 for Con, any PC will have normally have scaled out of this by level 7-8.

Overall I am leaning towards a relatively strong LA -0: the Flight covers a lot of deficiencies here, and at least it is not losing any BAB for the 3 RHD. That said, the whole package is underwhelming and not worth a second look if the Flight is not your core concern.

This one is a bit goofy, flight, Hunting Cry, and blind sense at level 3-5 are pretty powerful and in this level range I think there is an argument that these guys are board line +1 LA. However, once other character start being able to fly and once everyone has more or less constant access to flight their advantage becomes moot and their disadvantages become more obvious, ie Hunting Cry not scaling and having back subscriptors as well as blind sense shutdown.

Over all though I don't see these guys falling behind other characters, at low levels doing some sort of ranged/bfc cleric gish can be quite powerful, dropping fog cloud and darkness on enemies then taking them out while flying is pretty nasty and later on just focus on bfc. I am fine with +0 LA on these guys, for a ~quarter of their carrier they are questionably +1, for the rest they flow on the +0 spectrum.

javcs

2018-10-16, 04:17 PM

Nifft

2018-10-16, 04:23 PM

Flight is good to have. (Good) maneuverability is better than average (literally and figuratively).

Sonic vulnerability is meh. It's an uncommon damage type.

Hunting Cry is unusually good for a racial, across the levels (and in the encounters) where it's relevant. The fact that it's Con-based is a plus -- nobody dumps Con.

Imagine this guy as a Runescarred Berserker, flying right up to an enemy Wizard (ignoring invisibility etc. because Ex flight and blindsense) and eating the Wizard's face with pure Barbarian wrath and an unhealthy dose of anti-magic field.

Verdict: LA +0, clearly playable but you're going to have to work for it.

Efrate

2018-10-16, 04:36 PM

I'm going to say plus 0. it's decent lower levels and ex flight with the ability to hover never gets old. at high levels it falls off but tbh anything with rhd does unless it gives class like features that increase with hd, like spells, powers or maneuvers.

Aniikinis

2018-10-16, 04:53 PM

Personally +0, but I can see a case being made for +1.

Thurbane

2018-10-16, 04:56 PM

Yeah, I was forgetting the hunting cry in my above post. I'm definitely comfortable with LA +0.

Hish

2018-10-16, 05:37 PM

+0. Hunting Cry, with increased Con for being a PC, is good for a lot of the game. Fly speed at decent speed and maneuverability is cool, as is Blindsense. Vulnerability to sonic isn't fun, but it's an uncommon damage type. And the chassis is just good enough to not be a downside. Overall, looks decent.

Also, I'm a little late but I really like the new thread title.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-10-16, 06:02 PM

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined.
It's very simple (and people keep forgetting): LA -0 stands for some undetermined amount of negative LA. That means a creature with LA -0 is considered to be balanced against creatures of an ECL equal to its RHD if it has at least one class level on top of its RHD.

In the case of the nycter, the question is: is a nycter 3/totemist 1 (or barbarian, psychic warrior, swordsage, rogue, ranger, etcetera) balanced against an azurin totemist 3? I think that, especially at low levels, flight is pretty nice, and full base attack with two good saves is nice, but it's not a natural fit for melee despite its base attack, and it's a terrible race when it comes to skills--you only have two class skills, and 2 points/HD, which is going to make it really hard to qualify for the good PrCs, unless you burn feats on class skills. Hunting Cry is neato, but also has the save DC of a first-level spell, and it's usable once per encounter (effectively), which means it's not going to be something you'll build around. It won't retain its usefulness past level 5 or 6.

I'm having a hard time deciding between -0 and +0. At the end of the day, I think you can do enough with flight + base attack to be decent as t5 beatstick, but is it strong enough for t4? Should it really be shooting for t3? I'll go with -0 to be on the safe side, because it looks pretty weak.

Covenant12

2018-10-16, 07:19 PM

Hunting cry scales with HD and Con, its what tips the scale for me to +0. In a 4th level party it could easily be DC 14 for a 1/encounter aoe paralysis. With a 2 round minimum. (coup de grace time)

I'm having a hard time seeing what else they excel at, without some work. Full BAB and +4 dex sounds like swordsage, but really far behind on skills. Blindsense and darkvision isn't amazing, but at low levels it matters some. Good maneuverability flight is a very big deal, at least until he somewhat catches up on skill points.

Not amazing at +0, but with 1 class level I think it contributes well enough in a 4th level party.

TotallyNotEvil

2018-10-16, 07:52 PM

LA +0. Blindsense + Flight + Darkvision + Paralysis attack plus not bad RHD (d8, full BAB, good Ref and Will) is a decent package.

By the time these fall off, you've got enough class levels to kick ass on their own.

I feel the thread has overused -0 a lot.

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-16, 08:30 PM

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined.
Quoted for truth.
I'm inclined to think that the Nycter's tricks, while useful, don't quite add up to what a 3rd-level character can do, and most of them don't scale great (ie, a 2nd-level nycter would probably be behind a 5th-level whatever). So unless you think we're being too harsh on monster PCs and need to reserve -0 for monsters that would be unplayable at +0, I think it earns a (strong) -0.

Also ... I'm pretty sure Sonic ignores Hardness, so they can (slowly) bypass obstructions/walls/doors and set off and/or destroy traps.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't...but even if it did, what kind of wimpy fighters/barbarians can't overcome hardness through sheer damage?

Random Sanity

2018-10-16, 08:58 PM

Hunting Cry is handy, but it has the all-too-common issue of "will this actually work when I need it?" You've got entire creature types that can no-sell it without rolling, and no shortage of enemies with better-than-even chances of saving.

Racial Flight is a gem; everybody wants 3d movement from somewhere, and you don't have to spend gold or spell slots on it.

Damage vulnerability, no matter what type, is a serious negative. When it comes to vulnerabilities, rarity of a damage type is only relevant to short campaigns - a monster only has to hit your Achilles' heel once to send you back to the PHB to reroll.

The rest of the racials are more fluff than anything; a grab-bag of minor buffs that do very little.

Overall, I'd say this is worthy of +0.

Celestia

2018-10-17, 12:37 AM

If it was 2 RHD, it would definitely be worth a +0, but with that extra one? Probably not. Hunting cry will be nice when it hits, but it probably won't hit often, so all this really has going for it is flight, and I don't think that's worth three levels.

No brains

2018-10-17, 01:20 PM

I'm tempted to say +0 because its art shows it as a tool-using humanoid, even with bracers that don't completely clasp around its arms. The stat penalties sort of suck, but the save or lose helps to balance that. Sonic vulnerability does really suck, but there's ways to counter it. Silence can cover your butt if you're really scared.

I also want to give these guys +0 to set them apart from the crappy bat-people, Desmodu. At least a Nycter tries to be bat-like and doesn't have some Munchausen pole-weapon for some reason.

Nifft

2018-10-17, 01:32 PM

I'm going with a -0*.
They aren't really worth their 3 RHD, especially at higher levels, but at low levels, Hunting Cry can mess up an encounter of numerous weak enemies.

Also ... I'm pretty sure Sonic ignores Hardness, so they can (slowly) bypass obstructions/walls/doors and set off and/or destroy traps.

As far as I can tell, doing that with Hunting Cry is just a worse version of Baleful Utterance ... except it costs 3 RHD and it can be used less often, instead of being every round from level 1.

Warlocks seem playable (no asterisk), and not even that high-power.

I also want to give these guys +0 to set them apart from the crappy bat-people, Desmodu. At least a Nycter tries to be bat-like and doesn't have some Munchausen pole-weapon for some reason.

Desmondu really are awful.

I hated when WotC seemed to be pushing them.

Remuko

2018-10-17, 05:55 PM

I'm going with -0 for basically the same reasons as Celestia said.

Flickerdart

2018-10-17, 06:46 PM

-0. The encounter-ending potential of its power is comparable to several classic spells, and quickly peters out.

No brains

2018-10-17, 06:51 PM

Desmondu really are awful.

I hated when WotC seemed to be pushing them.

What really sucked about them was that their push was just a consequence of pushing drow, who needed some chaotic good foil. So not only do they not really stand on their own merits, they could actively facilitate the backstory of many more Drizzt clones.:smalltongue:

GreatWyrmGold

2018-10-17, 08:35 PM

Desmondu really are awful.
I remember thinking that some of their gear was neat, especially the alchemal stuff. And I vaguely remember noticing that they moved faster on all fours, and thinking that touch was kinda interesting and something that probably should have been on other monsters.

danielxcutter

2018-10-18, 09:26 AM

What are you talking about? Rapidstrike is mentioned in literally every single handbook for a creature type that can take it.

I mean in this thread.

Inevitability

2018-10-19, 02:11 PM

Nycter votes, with the two candidate LAs being +0 and -0! (aka: much ado about nothing).

-0: 7 votes
+0: 10 votes

By considerable majority, the LA shall be changed to +0. Everybody, thank you for voting!

TiaC

2018-10-19, 05:11 PM

Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.

I've always thought that it's problematic to have PCs with HD≠ECL, so I considered a version of this thread that asks how much a monster would need to be advanced or de-advanced to have LA +0. So, for things with positive LA, they would generally get slightly more HD added then their LA, while for things like these massive piles of HD we've seen recently, they would get a pile of HD chopped off.

No brains

2018-10-19, 05:39 PM

I've always thought that it's problematic to have PCs with HD≠ECL, so I considered a version of this thread that asks how much a monster would need to be advanced or de-advanced to have LA +0. So, for things with positive LA, they would generally get slightly more HD added then their LA, while for things like these massive piles of HD we've seen recently, they would get a pile of HD chopped off.

Wouldn't this pigeonhole creatures into a role based on their creature type? What if I wanted to make a deceptively tanky fey or a glass cannon magical beast? Theoretically this could be accomplished by messing with Constitution, but sometimes more HD really help a monster be better at what it is intended to do... especially if being a PC is outside that intent.

Inevitability

2018-10-20, 09:33 AM

Odopi

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/72/c3/c372c3c8e11ad898fd3986586fdd1aa4.jpg

I got to hand it to WotC, they sure have a lot of weird monsters on hand. Arguably it's gotten out of hand here, though.

Handily enough, odopi have physical stats in the mid-twenties, okay DR, fast healing, free Whirlwind Attack, and useful energy resistances. On the other hand, they suffer from 20 aberration RHD, can't use weapons or tools (other than thrown weapons for some reason), and lack extraordinary forms of movement. To function, your party will need to lend you a hand quite often.

Also, for some reason, WotC thinks Improved Grab, Swallow Whole, and Trample are useful abilities at mid-levels. I can't believe my eyes.

Feyenally, there's the spell-likes which are mostly just bad. At-will feather fall, 3/day Dimension Door and 1/day True Seeing are not very impressive.

Conclusion: -0 LA, hands down.

Odopi, Elder

30 rhd bad, -0 la.

Mike Miller

2018-10-20, 09:41 AM

Yea... -0 for not being a competitive choice, at all

Covenant12

2018-10-20, 10:03 AM

-0 at ECL 20, not even close.

Honestly think its firmly -0 for its CR as well, it doesn't compare to CR 14 beatsticks (say a giant) or level 14 T3 players well. Full attack of one claw that doesn't hit that hard or four weak thrown attacks? This is flat out bad. Oh wait whirlwind attack....with 5 foot reach and it outright can't wield weapons. Ugh.

Aniikinis

2018-10-20, 10:09 AM

-0 no contest. I wish there was more to be said, but this one is just bleh.

Zaq

2018-10-20, 10:28 AM

Inevitability

2018-10-20, 10:45 AM

From a design perspective, I've always wondered how they come up with the numbers on things like this. Why 7 fast healing? Why 22 SR? Why CL 18 on its SLAs?

Chaotic means random, duh.

OgresAreCute

2018-10-20, 10:46 AM

Fantastically weird monster—even if it's mostly a beatstick monster, it's got a sufficiently crazy description that I'm okay calling it an interesting beatstick for fluff/appearance alone, which is rare for me. I usually lump things like this together in the "sack of meat" category, but this one's weird enough to be interesting, even if it's still mostly a pile of numbers. I feel like you'd have to use something comically bizarre as a miniature. A koosh ball, perhaps. Those still exist, right?

Beyond useless as a PC, though. 20 RHD do not a playable thing make.

From a design perspective, I've always wondered how they come up with the numbers on things like this. Why 7 fast healing? Why 22 SR? Why CL 18 on its SLAs?

SR is often HD/CR +10 or 11 so that an equally leveled caster has a roughly 50/50 shot at beating it, which makes sense. Obviously not the case here, and I'd guess they made the numbers for this thing by drawing notes from a hat or asking people around the office "Hey Mark, say a number between 20 and 30" and Mark goes like "uhhh, 22?".