Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?

[esm3x]

The title says it all (almost)...

I have a good character (lvl 8 cleric) who is suddenly in an aquatic campaign. Can the celestial template be substituted for the fiendish template on the legal Summon Monster lists?

[Goaty14]

Not by RAW, but that's a fair enough trade for your DM to houserule in.

[esm3x]

Can you cite the reference where this is outlined?

I've looked through the PH DMG and MM but didn't see this explicitly stated. I would like to know as I DM another campaign and this has come up, there.

TIA!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you cite the reference where this is outlined?

I've looked through the PH DMG and MM but didn't see this explicitly stated. I would like to know as I DM another campaign and this has come up, there.

TIA!Err... How does he cite a passage that doesn't exist?

(Also, it's spelled "spells.")

[tomandtish]

I may be mistaken, but I THINK the OP is asking if you can change the Celestial/Fiendish descriptors in front of some of the monsters. So,can he summon a celestial octopus instead of a fiendish one.

Any yes, a question for your DM, but I'd allow it.

[Thurbane]

BY RAW you can summon what it says on the lists, so no.

I believe Pathfinder does it differently (letting you apply either template to the base creatures).

So RAW, in 3.5 no you can't summon a Celestial Boar instead of a Fiendish Boar with Summon Monster III; but as other's have said, it's an entirely reasonable house-rule.



There's a couple of things that can change this:

The Perfect Summons spell (BoED) changes all summoned creatures to Celestial/good-aligned versions.

The Distort Summons spell (BoVD) changes all summoned creatures to Fiendish/evil-aligned versions.

[ATHATH]

You could dip Malconvoker, although that just lets you summon evil stuff with Summon Monster as a Good Cleric.

[Calthropstu]

BY RAW you can summon what it says on the lists, so no.

I believe Pathfinder does it differently (letting you apply either template to the base creatures).

So RAW, in 3.5 no you can't summon a Celestial Boar instead of a Fiendish Boar with Summon Monster III; but as other's have said, it's an entirely reasonable house-rule.



There's a couple of things that can change this:

The Perfect Summons spell (BoED) changes all summoned creatures to Celestial/good-aligned versions.

The Distort Summons spell (BoVD) changes all summoned creatures to Fiendish/evil-aligned versions.



Just a note, the bestiary 2 in pathfinder adds the lawful and chaotic templates as well to summons.

[ShurikVch]

I'm sorry, but it looks like RAW says "No!":
The caster can't replace a template of creatures that he couldn't summon due to his alignment, nor can he bring in a template of creatures he can't summon for that reason. For instance, a lawful good cleric can't replace fiendish creatures with axiomatic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning fiendish (evil) creatures, nor could he replace celestial creatures with anarchic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning chaotic creatures. He could replace celestial creatures with vivacious creatures.

One possible solution there is Purify Summoning [exalted] feat (Dragon #353):
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains the good subtype, and creatures that are not already good in alignment become good.But I'm not sure if even this will work...

[Rijan_Sai]

I'm sorry, but it looks like RAW says "No!":


The caster can't replace a template of creatures that he couldn't summon due to his alignment, nor can he bring in a template of creatures he can't summon for that reason. For instance, a lawful good cleric can't replace fiendish creatures with axiomatic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning fiendish (evil) creatures, nor could he replace celestial creatures with anarchic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning chaotic creatures. He could replace celestial creatures with vivacious creatures.
Which reads to me like the RAW says "Yes, but..."
If the OP is a Good cleric, then he would not be able to swap the templates (because he could not summon Evil creatures...) If he is "good" (but Neutral) he could.


One possible solution there is Purify Summoning [exalted] feat (Dragon #353):
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains the good subtype, and creatures that are not already good in alignment become good. But I'm not sure if even this will work...
That seems to be specifically what the feat is for, so I don't see why it wouldn't work... (Of course, the [Exalted] tag is a pretty hard lock...)

[Selion]

BY RAW you can summon what it says on the lists, so no.



Octopi are bad persons

[Nifft]

Octopi are bad persons

1 - Defendant clearly has tentacles in direct violation to standards of public morality.

2 - Defendant corrupts the purity of the English language by coercing a Latin suffix onto a Greek root.

Guilty.

I hereby sentence the convict to calamari.

[Selion]

1 - Defendant clearly has tentacles in direct violation to standards of public morality.

2 - Defendant corrupts the purity of the English language by coercing a Latin suffix onto a Greek root.

Guilty.

I hereby sentence the convict to calamari.

Ahahaha, I'm italian, my english may sound funny sometimes

[Nifft]

Ahahaha, I'm italian, my english may sound funny sometimes

There's nothing wrong with your English -- it's the octopi who are at fault.

(I was taught to use "octopi" in an American school; it's weird but apparently acceptable, and I like how funny it sounds.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's nothing wrong with your English -- it's the octopi who are at fault.

(I was taught to use "octopi" in an American school; it's weird but apparently acceptable, and I like how funny it sounds.)And it's just one step away from an octo-pie, which is what happens when you cut a quiche into eight pieces. Double bonus points if it's made from an actual octopus.

[Nifft]

And it's just one step away from an octo-pie, which is what happens when you cut a quiche into eight pieces. Double bonus points if it's made from an actual octopus.

[nods in pizza]

[Thurbane]

I'm sorry, but it looks like RAW says "No!":

One possible solution there is Purify Summoning [exalted] feat (Dragon #353):

Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains the good subtype, and creatures that are not already good in alignment become good.

Thank you, I was previously unaware of this feat.

[Kish]

Which reads to me like the RAW says "Yes, but..."
If the OP is a Good cleric, then he would not be able to swap the templates (because he could not summon Evil creatures...) If he is "good" (but Neutral) he could.


That seems to be specifically what the feat is for, so I don't see why it wouldn't work... (Of course, the [Exalted] tag is a pretty hard lock...)
Absolutely. Go nuts with good-aligned fiendish octopi.

RAW aside, there's no good reason not to be able to summon a Celestial octopus or a fiendish badger.

[hamishspence]

The main reason Planar Handbook gave against it, was that the spells become "too good for their level".

[Kish]

...huh?

I didn't realize "no, sorry, you're an evil cleric, so you can only have a dire rat, not a badger" was supposed to be an actual balancing measure.

Especially since arcane spellcasters can summon opposed-alignment ones freely.

[ExLibrisMortis]

...huh?

I didn't realize "no, sorry, you're an evil cleric, so you can only have a dire rat, not a badger" was supposed to be an actual balancing measure.

Especially since arcane spellcasters can summon opposed-alignment ones freely.
Yeah, but clerics have heavy armour and 3/4 base attack. Got to rein 'em in, yaknow?

[Selion]

And it's just one step away from an octo-pie, which is what happens when you cut a quiche into eight pieces. Double bonus points if it's made from an actual octopus.

Double points scored! There is a traditional food from my hometown consisting of pizza filled with octopi, tomatoes and olives. Here is a picture.


http://www.lazioterradisapori.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Tiella-di-Gaeta-polpo.jpg

[Quertus]

Absolutely. Go nuts with good-aligned fiendish octopi.

RAW aside, there's no good reason not to be able to summon a Celestial octopus or a fiendish badger.

Well, I may be senile, and this may be a 2e thing / 2e thinking, but I thought that which were fiendish and which were celestial was based on their perception by the world's inhabitants. Thus, I thought that there just weren't celestial octopi available to summon to worlds that maligned the 8-legged aquatic creatures.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, I may be senile, and this may be a 2e thing / 2e thinking, but I thought that which were fiendish and which were celestial was based on their perception by the world's inhabitants. Thus, I thought that there just weren't celestial octopi available to summon to worlds that maligned the 8-legged aquatic creatures.I think that's lycanthropes. Werewolves are Evil because wolves eat sheep, and little piggies, and little red riding hoods (even though they don't unless they're driven insane by disease or last-ditch starvation), so of course they're evil mean meanie-pants (without the pants).

[SLOTHRPG95]

There's nothing wrong with your English -- it's the octopi who are at fault.

(I was taught to use "octopi" in an American school; it's weird but apparently acceptable, and I like how funny it sounds.)

I was taught octopuses in an American school, but all Good and Decent Persons know that octopodes is the only acceptable pluralization in Polite Society.

[Necroticplague]

Well, I may be senile, and this may be a 2e thing / 2e thinking, but I thought that which were fiendish and which were celestial was based on their perception by the world's inhabitants. Thus, I thought that there just weren't celestial octopi available to summon to worlds that maligned the 8-legged aquatic creatures.

...being Celestial or Fiendish is based on plane or origin, having exactly squat to do with anyone’s perception. Not sure where you’d be getting this from.

[Nifft]

I was taught octopuses in an American school, but all Good and Decent Persons know that octopodes is the only acceptable pluralization in Polite Society.

The proper word for this thread is octopedantry.

[Thurbane]

...being Celestial or Fiendish is based on plane or origin, having exactly squat to do with anyone’s perception. Not sure where you’d be getting this from.

I think he was postulating specifically about the Summon Monster lists: why we get Fiendish Rats and Celestial Lions.

Animals seen to be sneaky or evil appear on the lists as fiendish; while those traditionally seen to be brave or noble appear as celestial.

Of course their plane of origin determines this mechanically...

[esm3x]

I'm sorry, but it looks like RAW says "No!":

Originally Posted by Planar Handbook
The caster can't replace a template of creatures that he couldn't summon due to his alignment, nor can he bring in a template of creatures he can't summon for that reason. For instance, a lawful good cleric can't replace fiendish creatures with axiomatic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning fiendish (evil) creatures, nor could he replace celestial creatures with anarchic creatures, since his alignment precludes him from summoning chaotic creatures. He could replace celestial creatures with vivacious creatures.

One possible solution there is Purify Summoning [exalted] feat (Dragon #353):But I'm not sure if even this will work...

TY, this is what I was looking for!

[VolcanicErupt]

BY RAW you can summon what it says on the lists, so no.

I believe Pathfinder does it differently (letting you apply either template to the base creatures).

So RAW, in 3.5 no you can't summon a Celestial Boar instead of a Fiendish Boar with Summon Monster III; but as other's have said, it's an entirely reasonable house-rule.



There's a couple of things that can change this:

The Perfect Summons spell (BoED) changes all summoned creatures to Celestial/good-aligned versions.

The Distort Summons spell (BoVD) changes all summoned creatures to Fiendish/evil-aligned versions.



I think this is your best option, my guy. Side note, totally need to play a Sea Witch(Stormwrack pg.68) if you are a Summoner in an aquatic campaign. I am and have yet to be disappointed. Not for everyone, but nothing ever is.